Hero of Tython (Act III) vs Revan Reborn

HoT at the end of Act III, Revan during his fight with Vitiate in Revan.

Revan Reborn low-mid dif

Revan.

Revan grounds and pounds him.

Revan got soundly trounced by Vitiate. The Hero cleaned the floor with him in an even stronger nexus than the Dark Citadel with his energy dissipated and Vitiate having the entire time the Hero spent fighting through an army and back to save the companions. Now whilst one can argue that Vitiate here was immensely weakened - and they'd be right. That is not making up for three centuries of ever-increasing power where the gap between Revan and the Emperor grew so large that not only would the Emperor have simply outgrew him to the point Revan can't resist his drain, but he had the spare energy to suppress Vaylin's Revan+ tier power, control the Dread Masters telepathically, create hundreds of ~ Act 2 Barsen'thor Force users with fractional energy; the strongest of which could conceal their collective dark side power with ease whilst masking himself from his own host (which shows magnitudes more power than Darth Zannah who could only do so for herself with immense struggle, for minutes and that being in the presence of far less powerful Jedi to boot.)

Revan turns him to ash.

LadyKulvax wrote:Revan got soundly trounced by Vitiate. The Hero cleaned the floor with him in an even stronger nexus than the Dark Citadel with his energy dissipated and Vitiate having the entire time the Hero spent fighting through an army and back to save the companions. Now whilst one can argue that Vitiate here was immensely weakened - and they'd be right. That is not making up for three centuries of ever-increasing power where the gap between Revan and the Emperor grew so large that not only would the Emperor have simply outgrew him to the point Revan can't resist his drain, but he had the spare energy to suppress Vaylin's Revan+ tier power, control the Dread Masters telepathically, create hundreds of ~ Act 2 Barsen'thor Force users with fractional energy; the strongest of which could conceal their collective dark side power with ease whilst masking himself from his own host (which shows magnitudes more power than Darth Zannah who could only do so for herself with immense struggle, for minutes and that being in the presence of far less powerful Jedi to boot.)

Not necessarily disagreeing with you because if you're correct the sor revan hype grows but a couple of things.
Isn't valkorion's control of vailyn done through psychological conditioning, not dominating her with his own power. Also Revan didn't get trounced by the emperor. He was hindered by the dark side nexus you praise so often when talking about meetra. He also faced a supercharged version of vitiate's lightning as he gathered energy for several seconds. When vitiate fired off his normal lightning Revan was able to deflect it. So on neutral ground its very likely Revan Reborn is at least =novel vitiate.

Revan clears with ease.

KingofBlades wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Revan got soundly trounced by Vitiate. The Hero cleaned the floor with him in an even stronger nexus than the Dark Citadel with his energy dissipated and Vitiate having the entire time the Hero spent fighting through an army and back to save the companions. Now whilst one can argue that Vitiate here was immensely weakened - and they'd be right. That is not making up for three centuries of ever-increasing power where the gap between Revan and the Emperor grew so large that not only would the Emperor have simply outgrew him to the point Revan can't resist his drain, but he had the spare energy to suppress Vaylin's Revan+ tier power, control the Dread Masters telepathically, create hundreds of ~ Act 2 Barsen'thor Force users with fractional energy; the strongest of which could conceal their collective dark side power with ease whilst masking himself from his own host (which shows magnitudes more power than Darth Zannah who could only do so for herself with immense struggle, for minutes and that being in the presence of far less powerful Jedi to boot.)

Not necessarily disagreeing with you because if you're correct the sor revan hype grows but a couple of things.
Isn't valkorion's control of vailyn done through psychological conditioning, not dominating her with his own power. Also Revan didn't get trounced by the emperor. He was hindered by the dark side nexus you praise so often when talking about meetra. He also faced a supercharged version of vitiate's lightning as he gathered energy for several seconds. When vitiate fired off his normal lightning Revan was able to deflect it. So on neutral ground its very likely Revan Reborn is at least =novel vitiate.

1.The codex entry makes it blatantly clear that Valkorion suppressed her Force power but couldn't maintain that control once imprisoned.

2.So Revan who was using the dark side and light side in his fight with Vitiate, is hindered by a dark side nexus?

3.You're only proving my point. Revan with a lightsaber could deflect a series of bolts of lightning from Vitiate who had just recovered from Revan unleashing his ultimate technique. But when both Vitiate and Revan get the chance to play serious ball. Revan's tutaminis is nigh-instantly overwhelmed by Vitiate's proper Force lightning and left paralyzed on the floor, needing to be rescued from certain death by T3-M4 and then Meetra Surik.

LadyKulvax wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Revan got soundly trounced by Vitiate. The Hero cleaned the floor with him in an even stronger nexus than the Dark Citadel with his energy dissipated and Vitiate having the entire time the Hero spent fighting through an army and back to save the companions. Now whilst one can argue that Vitiate here was immensely weakened - and they'd be right. That is not making up for three centuries of ever-increasing power where the gap between Revan and the Emperor grew so large that not only would the Emperor have simply outgrew him to the point Revan can't resist his drain, but he had the spare energy to suppress Vaylin's Revan+ tier power, control the Dread Masters telepathically, create hundreds of ~ Act 2 Barsen'thor Force users with fractional energy; the strongest of which could conceal their collective dark side power with ease whilst masking himself from his own host (which shows magnitudes more power than Darth Zannah who could only do so for herself with immense struggle, for minutes and that being in the presence of far less powerful Jedi to boot.)

Not necessarily disagreeing with you because if you're correct the sor revan hype grows but a couple of things.
Isn't valkorion's control of vailyn done through psychological conditioning, not dominating her with his own power. Also Revan didn't get trounced by the emperor. He was hindered by the dark side nexus you praise so often when talking about meetra. He also faced a supercharged version of vitiate's lightning as he gathered energy for several seconds. When vitiate fired off his normal lightning Revan was able to deflect it. So on neutral ground its very likely Revan Reborn is at least =novel vitiate.

1.The codex entry makes it blatantly clear that Valkorion suppressed her Force power but couldn't maintain that control once imprisoned.

2.So Revan who was using the dark side and light side in his fight with Vitiate, is hindered by a dark side nexus?

3.You're only proving my point. Revan with a lightsaber could deflect a series of bolts of lightning from Vitiate who had just recovered from Revan unleashing his ultimate technique. But when both Vitiate and Revan get the chance to play serious ball. Revan's tutaminis is nigh-instantly overwhelmed by Vitiate's proper Force lightning and left paralyzed on the floor, needing to be rescued from certain death by T3-M4 and then Meetra Surik.

True Revan may not be hindered below his normal power, but since Revan is being simultaneously amped and hindered he would be at his base level of power. Vitiate on the other hand is only being amped meaning he is at a higher level of power than normal. So vitiate is at an abnormal level of power and revan was more or less at his base power. And the novel notes that Vitiate started gathering energy before Revan giving him an advantage. We saw with Nyriss how gathering energy for several seconds led to a drastic increase in power so Vitiate even getting a second or two headstart on Revan could cause Vitiate to gain a decisive advantage power wise.

The Dark Citadel isn't amping him considering that Oricon, which was magnitudes more powerful as a nexus, was only so powerful because the Dread Masters made it so with their power. All of whom are 'insignificant' collectively compared to Vitiate himself.

The dark citadel is the heart of the DS nexus on dromund kaas. Its stronger there than anywhere else on the planet, including where meetra fought Nyriss.So when speaking about the exile you can't stop singing the praises of dromund kaas as a ds nexus and the effect it had on Luke despite the nexus growing weaker across 3000 years but when bringing it up between Revan and Vitiate, the nexus is suddenly a non factor?

I am saying Vitiate wasn't amped by something that he himself made and was responsible for. I am also saying Revan isn't hindered when he is using the Force in balance. The circumstances for the two of them are very special. For Meetra, the Hero of Tython and Luke Skywalker, they don't have the benefit of being able to draw on the dark side of the Force like Revan did in his fight with Vitiate.

LadyKulvax wrote:I am saying Vitiate wasn't amped by something that he himself made and was responsible for. I am also saying Revan isn't hindered when he is using the Force in balance. The circumstances for the two of them are very special. For Meetra, the Hero of Tython and Luke Skywalker, they don't have the benefit of being able to draw on the dark side of the Force like Revan did in his fight with Vitiate.

Alright I can see your point on that but my point regarding Vitiate gaining the advantage by having more time to gather energy still stands. Darthant explains it pretty well in his debate with Azronger how Revan was able to absorb almost all of the energy of Vitiate's barrage. That second or two headstart Vitiate had in gathering energy was most likely the reason for Revan being overwhelmed. Also that attack Revan used when opening himself to both sides of the force was hardly his "ultimate attack". Nothing tells us the attack was especially powerful. The only description the attack has is being of the purest form of force energy since it contained both sides of the force.

If the difference between Revan and Vitiate was only a few seconds then that's not good for Revan. It means Vitiate was only needing to gather some of his reserves like everyone else does using Force lightning to completely overwhelm Revan's prepared defenses and leave him completely incapacitated.

LadyKulvax wrote:If the difference between Revan and Vitiate was only a few seconds then that's not good for Revan. It means Vitiate was only needing to gather some of his reserves like everyone else does using Force lightning to completely overwhelm Revan's prepared defenses and leave him completely incapacitated.

Well considering Nyriss's lightning went from containing enough energy to knock the exile off her feet to being capable of reducing her to ash just by gathering energy for several seconds; I think you're underestimating the difference a couple of seconds makes.

It wasn't several seconds, it was twenty seconds. The audiobook clarifies this per Ant. Better yet:

1.Lord Scourge believing he'd be reduced to ash and that meaning the same is true for Meetra is hardly a factoid.

2.Even if we ignore 1, Meetra was literally on the floor recovering from asborbing the majority of Nyriss' lightning with an instinctive Force barrier. That a Meetra with no defenses up would get reduced to ash is basic common sense.

LadyKulvax wrote:It wasn't several seconds, it was twenty seconds. The audiobook clarifies this per Ant. Better yet:

1.Lord Scourge believing he'd be reduced to ash and that meaning the same is true for Meetra is hardly a factoid.

2.Even if we ignore 1, Meetra was literally on the floor recovering from asborbing the majority of Nyriss' lightning with an instinctive Force barrier. That a Meetra with no defenses up would get reduced to ash is basic common sense.

Those aren't the reasons I say Meetra would be reduced to ash. Meetra would be reduced to ash because Nyriss herself was reduced to ash. Regardless of your belief that Meetra is more powerful on neutral ground, the fact is that while on Dromund Kaas, Nyriss was more powerful. So Nyriss's force lightning went from knocking the exile off her feat to being capable reducing her superior to ash. Note that if we go by your interpretation that Meetra only used an instinctive barrier on Nyriss's normal lightning and could've deflected it had she used a normal barrier, then the power increase in Nyriss's final lightning attack is even more substantial than in my interpretation. Do you by any chance know how much longer Vitiate gathers energy for than Revan according to the audio book?

Nyriss was only definitively more powerful in terms of Force augmentation. That Meetra was capable of absorbing most of the lightning's potency with a mere instinctive Force barrier, actually indicates considerable parity given that Force barriers in general are not even supposed to be capable of absorbing such power at all.

Furthermore, Nyriss was only reduced to ash because she lacked the time to properly channel an effective Tutaminis defense. The novel even indicates that it is the immediacy of the barrier that she throws up in response that is responsible for her death. In other words Nyriss' power channelled for 20 seconds is greater than the power she can channel instantly, in other words. Which is obvious.

Revan rather handily.

Revan, forever and always.

I’m going to be the pariah and say HoT in a very close fight.

@BreakofDawn Reasons?

@Dc77 Drawing from their performances against Vitiate, a far weaker iteration of the HoT was able to hold off Vitiate’s lightning for a very short amount of time and was even able to get fairly close to him before the Emperor released his full power. Act 3 HoT >>> act 2 to the point that he can carve a path through Imperial guards and the like whilst on a dark side nexus. I believe that by act 3 the HoT is on a comparable level to novel Revan. The only clear edge I’d give Revan here is versatility.

If this was act 2 HoT, I’d say he’d be all but one-shot. However, by the end of act 3 the Hero canonically went through huge growths in power and has far superior feats to his act 2 iteration. It’s this boost that I believe makes him comparable in the Force, and his saber skills have simply impressed me more.

Still Revan.