RotS Anakin vs RotS Yoda

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Azronger wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

Azronger wrote:Base Jedi Anakin is an 8 and Yoda is a 9 per Lucas tiers. Puts the nail in the coffin IMO.

The tiers only refer to lightsaber skill does it not? If so then the door is still open for Anakin being >/= Yoda by having more applicable power in the force which would lead to things that could bridge the skill gap like superior force augmentation. Although if the tiers refer to someone's prowess in an all out manner then yeah I would concede Yoda having the edge.

Lightsaber prowess is dictated by one's strength in the Force. Anakin reached level 9 by falling to the dark side and gaining the power it granted, not by improving his skills with the blade. So Yoda is still likely more powerful than Anakin at the start of RotS.

There's a correlation between the lightsaber tiers and Force power, but it's not directly linear.

Sure, but that doesn't really address what I said. Anakin didn't get more skilled when he fell to the dark side, only more powerful. Gillard likewise said the difference between 8 and 9 is the dark side, not any increment in skill. Ergo, Anakin isn't as powerful as any tier 9 combatant when he's still an 8.

Gillard also said KFV's a tier nine because he had now "learned the art" and "learned the fighting," indicating he hadn't prior. Going back to what Yoda said about the dark side in ESB (which is almost certainly Gillard's frame of reference) -- "The dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive" -- I think the newfound dark side power allowed Anakin to quickly and easily advance his technique further, rather than the power in and of itself being the reason.

@DarthAnt66

Posting for reference:

Gillard also said KFV's a tier nine because he had now "learned the art" and "learned the fighting," indicating he hadn't prior.

Yeah, he's a deadlier lightsaber combatant than he was prior due to his newly achieved tier 9 status, and his fighting reflects that. It doesn't necessarily have to mean he has acquired some new moves or anything like that.

Going back to what Yoda said about the dark side in ESB (which is almost certainly Gillard's frame of reference) -- "The dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive" -- I think the newfound dark side power allowed Anakin to quickly and easily advance his technique further, rather than the power in and of itself being the reason.

Gillard describes Anakin's jump from 8 to 9 as "enormous" and "huge" - I severely doubt that sword masters of this caliber can realistically get any more skilled in a technical sense, much less to a degree where descriptions like those would be apt. We even have instances of this in the lore: from Kas'im, Darth Maul, etc. Technique becomes secondary to Force power far before we get anywhere near the RotS titans.

Anakin clearly doesn't spend any time honing it after his fall either. He just went on a rampage in the Jedi Temple where no one could match him, butchered the Separatists, and his first and only challenge was Obi-Wan. Even if we accept the premise that the dark side allows one to become immensely more skilled quickly, at what point would Anakin's technique have advanced at all, much less to a tremendous degree? Seems like a big stretch to me. Something like that takes conscious practise, dark side or not.

Pretty much what Az says. Though I doubt Drew was taking notes from Gillard's reasoning, there is  a strong correlation with Bane's improvement as he gradually submits himself to the dark side and increases the proficiency of his bladework despite not improving his physical skill:

Path of Destruction wrote:"Do you have anything you want me to work on for tomorrow?" Bane asked eagerly. "A new sequence? A new form? Anything?" "You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle." "I did?" Bane was surprised. "I ... I didn't really mean to." "That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger . . . even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

And Anakin after taking "Force LSD". He isn't just stronger and faster, the increase in his command of the Force will inevitably make his blade work more effective. Anakin as Az pointed out, realistically isn't going to have time to physically learn new lightsaber sequences in such a short space of time after turning to the dark side; all of it is Force based.

Kilius wrote:Pretty much what Az says. Though I doubt Drew was taking notes from Gillard's reasoning, there is  a strong correlation with Bane's improvement as he gradually submits himself to the dark side and increases the proficiency of his bladework despite not improving his physical skill:

Path of Destruction wrote:"Do you have anything you want me to work on for tomorrow?" Bane asked eagerly. "A new sequence? A new form? Anything?" "You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle." "I did?" Bane was surprised. "I ... I didn't really mean to." "That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger . . . even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

And Anakin after taking "Force LSD". He isn't just stronger and faster, the increase in his command of the Force will inevitably make his blade work more effective. Anakin as Az pointed out, realistically isn't going to have time to physically learn new lightsaber sequences in such a short space of time after turning to the dark side; all of it is Force based.

Agreed completely. Jedi Anakin is less powerful, less deadly with a lightsaber, and overall a lesser combatant than all tier nines.

@Azronger:

That's not a reconcile. The quote says "learned the art" and "learned the fighting." Emphasis on "learned". Your take doesn't have a "learned" component. We also know Anakin significantly altered his fighting style altogether. You can say this change and advancement was instinctual, or you can say Anakin fighting Dooku and hundreds of Jedi with the backing of the dark side allowed him to quickly graduate to tier 9. Either makes sense to me but, regardless, "learned" means it's not linear with Force power. 

Anakin has the power but not the skill. The dark side allows Anakin to advance quicker and gain the skill.

Note the alternative is to reject all of Anakin's supremacy quotes because of one's own interpretation of Nick Gillard's statements, lol.

Let’s see the quote for Anakin “learning the art” as KFV

What do you mean?

DarthAnt66 wrote:Gillard also said KFV's a tier nine because he had now "learned the art" and "learned the fighting,"

To my knowledge Gillard has never said this^

So I’d like to see the quote

Azronger posted the scans. Unless you want to say those quotes were just MFV-specific?

Base Anakin dies

Amped Anakin on IH loses, but It's close

Kfv wins

Mfv splits

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Azronger:

That's not a reconcile. The quote says "learned the art" and "learned the fighting." Emphasis on "learned". Your take doesn't have a "learned" component. We also know Anakin significantly altered his fighting style altogether. You can say this change and advancement was instinctual, or you can say Anakin fighting Dooku and hundreds of Jedi with the backing of the dark side allowed him to quickly graduate to tier 9. Either makes sense to me but, regardless, "learned" means it's not linear with Force power. 

Anakin has the power but not the skill. The dark side allows Anakin to advance quicker and gain the skill.

Note the alternative is to reject all of Anakin's supremacy quotes because of one's own interpretation of Nick Gillard's statements, lol.

Yo, I don't think he was talking about learning the fighting as growth "in" ROTS but growth leading up to ROTS and further advancements are attributed to the force.

He changed his style in the same way as a calm and cool person changes his style on becoming angry. His attacks became more brutal, savage etc. It doesn't mean that his technique itself became more refined, in fact, Obi Wan is still able to predict him "blade to blade" and knew him "more intimately" than even a lover. If his technique changed, Obi Wan shouldn't be able to predict him as clearly and as accurately as he used to before and this is emphatically stated in their duel. A change in technique makes it that much harder to predict moves and anticipate them, let alone counter them and we know that he predicted and countered Vader's moves as accurately as he did before. The thing was that he couldn't handle Vader's power or speed which made it difficult for him not to mention the fact that those attacks also became more savage or brutal

I honestly like your other explanation better. Force augmentation and precognition generally are instinctive meaning Anakin can utilize them better than he can utilize tk. That fills in the gaps more effectively than Anakin learning more sequences or whatever.

Fighting need not be exclusive to technique only. Lightsaber fighting has everything combined, including the force. Gillard could just as easily be referring to the complete package

Yoda w/ the W

Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

I think it could go either way honestly. I think as of RotS Anakin is meant to be portrayed as having more raw power than Yoda but less skill and control. I think Yoda has the power to hold his own against Anakin and the skill and knowledge necessary to out-duel and work around Anakin's defenses. I'd side with Yoda after a long fight.

HellfireUnit wrote:Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

You really gonna call someone overwhelming Dooku in his base state an ignorant child?

Jedi Anakin loses.

KF Vader slaps after the fight of a lifetime.

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

You really gonna call someone overwhelming Dooku in his base state an ignorant child?

What knowledge does Anakin possess about the Force? A particle of sand compared to Yoda. Anakin Skywalker was a duelist, he didn't learn nor cared about Force back in his Jedi days. Of course he was very young but this is RotS versions of the characters. Also since when besting someone in combat has anything to do with knowledge?

HellfireUnit wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

You really gonna call someone overwhelming Dooku in his base state an ignorant child?

What knowledge does Anakin possess about the Force? A particle of sand compared to Yoda. Anakin Skywalker was a duelist, he didn't learn nor cared about Force back in his Jedi days. Of course he was very young but this is RotS versions of the characters. Also since when besting someone in combat has anything to do with knowledge?

Obi wan states in LoE he has a mastery of the force rivaling yoda.

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

You really gonna call someone overwhelming Dooku in his base state an ignorant child?

What knowledge does Anakin possess about the Force? A particle of sand compared to Yoda. Anakin Skywalker was a duelist, he didn't learn nor cared about Force back in his Jedi days. Of course he was very young but this is RotS versions of the characters. Also since when besting someone in combat has anything to do with knowledge?

Obi wan states in LoE he has a mastery of the force rivaling yoda.

What mastery or feats does he have to suggest that? Anakin's only worthy knowledge was resisting to drain. His basic Force Abilities (pre-cog, senses, valor, strength augmentation etc.) were enchanced to a level beyond most Jedi but that's due to his raw power. He only showed some strong TK feats. Did he had mastery of Tutaminis, Battle Meditation, Force Barrier etc? He rarely used the Force against his opponents and most of the time he failed, even being unable to defend himself from their certain attacks. His mastery of the Force is on quite a low level and he doesn't have any feats to suggest that he is above Jedi Masters, let alone Yoda.

HellfireUnit wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Yoda 10/10. He simply overwhelms Anakin without needing a saber. Anakin is an ignorant child at the time of RotS. His skill won't help him defeat Yoda, who is way more experienced, better combatant, faster than Anakin.

You really gonna call someone overwhelming Dooku in his base state an ignorant child?

What knowledge does Anakin possess about the Force? A particle of sand compared to Yoda. Anakin Skywalker was a duelist, he didn't learn nor cared about Force back in his Jedi days. Of course he was very young but this is RotS versions of the characters. Also since when besting someone in combat has anything to do with knowledge?

Obi wan states in LoE he has a mastery of the force rivaling yoda.

What mastery or feats does he have to suggest that? Anakin's only worthy knowledge was resisting to drain. His basic Force Abilities (pre-cog, senses, valor, strength augmentation etc.) were enchanced to a level beyond most Jedi but that's due to his raw power. He only showed some strong TK feats. Did he had mastery of Tutaminis, Battle Meditation, Force Barrier etc? He rarely used the Force against his opponents and most of the time he failed, even being unable to defend himself from their certain attacks. His mastery of the Force is on quite a low level and he doesn't have any feats to suggest that he is above Jedi Masters, let alone Yoda.

Absence of evidence does not = evidence of absence. Just because Anakin chose not to use techniques doesn't mean he doesn't know them.

1) Tutaminis is an expression of raw power.

2) A force barrier is dependant on the telekinetic strength of the person who employs it.

Yoda wins barely, KFV wins barely

Yoda every time.

So let's just throw out Anakin's supremacy quotes shall we.