Dooku and Yoda

A thread for more measured debate on the topic, where people can substantiate their positions with evidence.

My take is that Yoda and Sidious are in their own tier on a permanent basis. People like Windu and Anakin can be on that tier in certain situations. I liken the difference between Yoda and Dooku as similar to Maul and Qui-Gon in TPM. Qui-Gon can give Maul a good fight for approximately a minute before exhausting himself. We see this in the AotC duel, where at the tail end Dooku gets progressively tired. However, like the TPM duo, Yoda is clearly superior, and will win every time out of ten.

AotC Dooku < AotC Yoda << RotS Dooku <<< RotS Yoda

Yeah, I'd agree. Dooku is close enough that he can put up a solid performance but he loses every time.

Though in saying that, I'm not convinced AotC Windu would do much better.

I think he'd do a lot worse tbh. Not sure any version of Windu pre-ROTS would perform as well as Dooku did.

I do hold Dooku > Windu in AotC.

Dooku can give Yoda a hard fight (like Maul with Sidious) but stands no chance of winning. He is inferior in every way.

Proof Maul did the same against Sidious?

Meatpants wrote:Proof Maul did the same against Sidious?

The two primary sources (TCW & Shadow Conspiracy) both clearly demonstrate Sidious struggling against Maul. Any secondary or tertiary sources that state otherwise are overridden by these depictions.

While reading LoE recently I found a couple of quotes that I haven't seen in forums on this subject so this topic seems like a good place to put them.

"On Geonosis, Yoda's easy parrying and, indeed handling of the sith lightning Dooku hurled at him had come as a surprise."

"Yoda probably believed that he had defeated Dooku on Geonosis. But in fact, Dooku had only fled the fight to safeguard the plans he had been carrying--the technical readouts to what would one day become the ultimate weapon."

Note these are both from Dooku's pov..

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Proof Maul did the same against Sidious?

The two primary sources (TCW & Shadow Conspiracy) both clearly demonstrate Sidious struggling against Maul. Any secondary or tertiary sources that state otherwise are overridden by these depictions.

Enlighten us?

Shadow Conspiracy has Sidious stomping Maul lol

BaratoBhajji wrote:Shadow Conspiracy has Sidious stomping Maul lol

Yeah

Azronger wrote:RotS Dooku <<< RotS Yoda

This exactly. Dooku definitely cannot give Yoda a good fight in ROTS certainly not when someone weaker than Yoda is beating him in 12 seconds and Yoda only unleashes his full power against Sidious

If you accept the premise that Yoda grew then yeah, Dooku is comparable to his earlier versions

LOTL wrote:

Azronger wrote:RotS Dooku <<< RotS Yoda

This exactly. Dooku definitely cannot give Yoda a good fight in ROTS certainly not when someone weaker than Yoda is beating him in 12 seconds and Yoda only unleashes his full power against Sidious

If you accept the premise that Yoda grew then yeah, Dooku is comparable to his earlier versions

Tbh, KF Vader>IH Anakin(Zonakin)>Base RotS Anakin>/=RotS Yoda>RotS Dooku. Anakin was performing better than Yoda did against Dooku while in his base before Dooku used dun moch. IH Anakin humiliated Dooku in a way I don't think Yoda could could have replicated. That being said Yoda still beats Dooku 10/10

???

Base Anakin is sub Agen Kolar in sabers per Kenobi’s own admission lol

BaratoBhajji wrote:Base Anakin is sub Agen Kolar in sabers per Kenobi’s own admission lol

Mace has called base Anakin the most powerful jedi alive in the RotS novel and Obi Wan says base Anakin has a mastery of the force rivaling Yoda in LoE

Mace is referring to potential and Kenobi is referring to what Anakin can bring to the table, not what he does bring to the table. Base Anakin is sub Kolar, Dooku and Kenobi (and splits with Tiin per Dooku) but can do better if he draws on his innate power

There is no debate to be had. KFV is as strong as Sidious and IH Anakin is noticeably inferior to him. This is G canon and Anakin at the beginning of ROTS is a tier 8 meaning considerably worse than Yoda

KingofBlades wrote:

BaratoBhajji wrote:Base Anakin is sub Agen Kolar in sabers per Kenobi’s own admission lol

Mace has called base Anakin the most powerful jedi alive in the RotS novel and Obi Wan says base Anakin has a mastery of the force rivaling Yoda in LoE

Obi Wan is obviously referring to applicable power and mastery as Anakin would not be complaining about his position merely because of his potential; otherwise Anakin would've arguing for a place on the council back in AotC. And Mace follows up the statement by saying Anakin is still growing in power. Meaning Mace was referring to applicable power otherwise he wouldn't have commented on Anakin getting stronger since his potential doesn't change bar injury.

And yeah character opinions are not as important evidence as objective evidence or feats

Not even close

Base Anakin is sub Kolar per Kenobi’s own admission lol he’s not gonna say he’s superior to Yoda and in the next breath compare him to Kolar lol

Even though Kolar > Yoda in technical skill 0.o

LOTL wrote:And yeah character opinions are not as important evidence as objective evidence or feats

Not even close

There are 3 out of universe statements calling Anakin the most powerful jedi ever and possibly a 4th depending on how you interpret it And can you provide a quote saying base Anakin is only a tier 8 duelist

What Anakin can bring to the table and what Anakin does bring to the table (daily basis) are two separate things