SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Saarai (GLO) vs Even Piell (Omni Bomni)

*insert banner*

Saarai and Even Piell, both are in their primes, standard equipments, neutral ground, 10 meters apart.

Debaters has 1 week of time limit, no character limit but conciseness of post will be weighed in the judgement.

All formal forum rules apply

My first post will be focusing on Even Piell’s often overlooked combative prowess. Piell is a member of the Jedi Council which “represent the best of the order”


This is in a time period where the Jedi are at their prime

https://youtu.be/6NyxljZNC8g?t=37

The sheer impressiveness of this is even pointed out with a source calling them “the twelve most powerful Jedi to ever pick up a lightsaber”


Meaning that they are stronger than any Jedi before them that have picked up a lightsaber. But Piell is not just one of the twelve most powerful, he is actually one of the stronger beings of these twelve. First of he is what is called a senior member, repeated more often for Piell than it has been for Plo Koon





Being a senior member is not related to rank within the council, but rather how strong ones force connection is. Being more connected to the force would result in a higher sensitivity. You are now more connected, closer to the force, and therefore can feel it more strongly i.e. being more sensitive, more attuned to it, which is correlated with taping into the power of the force




Meaning Piell is a more powerful force user than his non senior contemporaries, the other senior members being Oppo Rancisis, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, and Yoda, all having a multitude of arguments for being the stronger council members





Know who hasn’t been attributed with senior status? Well, Kit Fisto, who himself can beat TPM Maul



Maul’s performance against Qui-Gon on Tatooine being the proof that the sith are now stronger than ever




So Piell is stronger in the force than someone who can defeat the proof that the sith are stronger than ever
Not only that, but he has allegedly been outright stated to be one of the strongest members of the council. The source is from an obsolete Cartoon Network Dataclip, sourced 4 different times on wookieepedia, 3 of the times sourced, this statement is attributed to it





You might question the validity of it, but when I brought it up to DarthAnt two years ago he certainly seemed to think it was real


He reaffirmed this recently as well



Piell’s stance within the council can be further inferred from him leading a council meeting held hundreds of years ago, before Oppo Rancicis had even become a padawan. Upon Yaddle’s return, when her master had been killed, stranding Yaddle for a century, Piell convinced the council to not only let Yaddle back in the order, despite Yoda protesting that she comes back, but Piell even managed to get her anointed to the council



So Piell has possibly hold the position of being one of the top of the council for all those years. Piell is also highly respected by his fellow councilors, much of the respect Jedi masters gain relating to their strength in the force. So Piell being up here is consistent




However, Piell is not just one of the strongest and one of the most powerful members of the council, he is also highly acclaimed with his lightsaber and advanced combat abilities as well as being a great warrior




This being explicitly what he is known for, even feared and respected for




So Piell is one of the most powerful members of the council, and despite this it is his lightsaber skills that he is most known for. His lightsaber skills is varied, as he wields all the 7 forms with equal proficiency



This would allow Piell to fight and defeat opponents stronger in the force than him, if he keeps up the pressure so that his opponent has no room to breathe, it could allow him to circumvent an entire one-shot with the force gap as shown in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction





Lastly Piell is not just a warrior, but also a scholar, even being part of the Council of First Knowledge



Knowledge being attributed with power

Conclusion

Piell is one of the strongest and most powerful members of the Jedi Council, a group that represents the best of the order, in an era that is the prime of the Jedi, scaling above Darth Maul, who is the proof that the Sith are stronger than ever. Furthermore his lightsaber skills are possibly even better and more impressive than his force abilities, as that is what he is most known for, with which he can potentially circumvent an entire force power stomp gap

_{"Saarai is my daughter and will, some day, be the next Darth Wyyrlok."}

Even 'dogs can beat' Piell

The word play on "even" will be overwhelming, perhaps unbearable through my posts. If you don't like it, go fuck yourself.

Rebuttals:

Even 'if I don't respond to' Piell

I actually didn't feel the need to respond to any of Omni's post since it doesn't actually bind Saarai at all. If I can prove Saarai scales beyond Piell then everything he posted can just be attributed to Saarai but she does it better. Nevertheless, there's a few things I feel should be addressed in his post.

Even Piell can be a councilor

Omni said:
Piell is a member of the Jedi Council which “represent the best of the order”
The sheer impressiveness of this is even pointed out with a source calling them “the twelve most powerful Jedi to ever pick up a lightsaber”

The blurb aside, Jedi councilors aren't necessarily chosen for combative reasons. We saw guys like Anakin Sora Bulq who are all expressively superior to Coleman Trebor or Piell. You need to prove Piell was put on the council due to superior combat.

Omni said:
Meaning that they are stronger than any Jedi before them that have picked up a lightsaber. But Piell is not just one of the twelve most powerful, he is actually one of the stronger beings of these twelve. First of he is what is called a senior member, repeated more often for Piell than it has been for Plo Koon
Being a senior member is not related to rank within the council, but rather how strong ones force connection is. Being more connected to the force would result in a higher sensitivity. You are now more connected, closer to the force, and therefore can feel it more strongly i.e. being more sensitive, more attuned to it, which is correlated with taping into the power of the force
Meaning Piell is a more powerful force user than his non senior contemporaries, the other senior members being Oppo Rancisis, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, and Yoda, all having a multitude of arguments for being the stronger council members
Piell’s stance within the council can be further inferred from him leading a council meeting held hundreds of years ago, before Oppo Rancicis had even become a padawan. Upon Yaddle’s return, when her master had been killed, stranding Yaddle for a century, Piell convinced the council to not only let Yaddle back in the order, despite Yoda protesting that she comes back, but Piell even managed to get her anointed to the council
So Piell has possibly hold the position of being one of the top of the council for all those years. Piell is also highly respected by his fellow councilors, much of the respect Jedi masters gain relating to their strength in the force. So Piell being up here is consistent

None of these prove that the respect authority or standings Piell has in the council war created by his superior force abilities. Instead, we KNOW explicitly exactly why he was let in the council, it's because of his wisdom and/or quick thinking abilities:

_{In difficult situations, Piell could be counted upon to keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in the thick of the action. For these reasons, Even was selected to serve on the Jedi Council as it was about to enter its most turbulent period.
-Relaunched Fact File #52: PIE5 (2014, De Agostini)
-
Wise, calm, and experienced, Master Piell was a logical addition to the Jedi Council.
-Relaunched Fact File #52: PIE5 (2014, De Agostini)}
(Credit to Durin the retarded Coon wanker)
Both quotes EXPLICITLY tells us the reason for his appointment to the council. And it's not because of his combat capabilities or his strength in the force but RATHER his wisdom, which your quote tells us is a possible reason for senior authority in the council. This makes sense because Yoda bowing to his decision in terms of Yaddle can be attributed to his wisdom as well, and not his combative abilities. Jedi explicitly values wisdom and knowledge FAR FAR more than combative abilities, as Yoda stated in AOTC that "they aren't warriors but peacekeepers", and knowledge is called by POTJ as the "cornerstone of the Jedi belief". So yes, Piell can be respected greatly even if he is relatively lackluster combatively, and no, he doesn't scale to the other senior councilors or even an average councilor.
This means that your case here fails because:
1. You don't prove wisdom can be used in combat
2. Wisdom isn't exactly scalable, unless you can prove Piell is wiser than Saarai?

Omni said:
So Piell is stronger in the force than someone who can defeat the proof that the sith are stronger than ever
Not only that, but he has allegedly been outright stated to be one of the strongest members of the council. The source is from an obsolete Cartoon Network Dataclip, sourced 4 different times on wookieepedia, 3 of the times sourced, this statement is attributed to it
You might question the validity of it, but when I brought it up to DarthAnt two years ago he certainly seemed to think it was real

No disrespect to Ant, but he isn't canon and neither is Wookiepedia. You didn't even provide the actual source. The source lost it's canonicity when it was explicitly deleted, you could even argue it was deleted due to it's inaccuracy. Even if it wasn't, I question how valid the dataclip really is anyways. But that's irrelevant in this scenario.
--------------------------
Here's some additional proof:
Citadel rescue, where Piell died officially, aired in May 2011:

While later retconned, Coruscant night 1, which attributed Piell's death to AFTER Order 66, was released in 2006:


So while Piell's official death came during the clone wars, from 2006 to 2011 it was assumed that he died after order 66. Which allows us to investigate into the minds of the authors during that time period. We know that in ROTS, which is in 2005, he wasn't shown on the council, but in TCSWE, which came out in 2008 likely with his death after Order 66 in mind, it was stated he was on the council for the start of the clone wars:




Again credits to the retarded Coon wanker
So, before 2011, when the conception is that he died after Order 66, 2 sources stated that he was REPLACED on the council. Piell was appointed on the council due to his "wisdom and quick thinking" before the war started, but when it did, when combat abilities was the predominant factor considered, Piell was replaced, likely due to his lackluster combative abilities.
Curious.

Even 'if he's a good duelist' Piell

Omni said:
However, Piell is not just one of the strongest and one of the most powerful members of the council, he is also highly acclaimed with his lightsaber and advanced combat abilities as well as being a great warrior

I don't deny that he's a great duelist.

Omni said:
This would allow Piell to fight and defeat opponents stronger in the force than him, if he keeps up the pressure so that his opponent has no room to breathe, it could allow him to circumvent an entire one-shot with the force gap as shown in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

This at best gives Piell a tactical advantage in a lightsaber duel, assuming it happens. Which leads me to my point here:
-------------
Darth Wyyrlok III, Saarai's father and master, is more of a diplomat


We know this is probably true because he resorted to lightning, TK, sorcery, and Memory walk over dueling in his fights with the cultists, Andeddu himself, and Krayt. He only once drew his lightsaber due to being forced into it by Krayt, and even then he chose to use memory walk to "end" the fight.
His daughter, Saarai, is even more of a "non-duelist". In her duel with Stryfe, she chose to engage in martial arts instead of using her lightsaber, and then she ragdolled him:

She then ragdolled him. Due to Wyyrlok probably training his daughter to follow his combat method, and her not using a lightsaber, it's very very likely that she doesn't engage with Piell at his point of advantage from the onset, but rather use the force to ragdoll him like she did with Stryfe. This gives Saarai another advantage, as she's going to ignore the field where Piell is the most advantaged and instead try to duel him where he isn't that experienced. So you also have the burden to prove Saarai will even duel Piell instead of straight up assaulting him with TK.

Even 'if he has knowledge' Piell

Omni said:
Lastly Piell is not just a warrior, but also a scholar, even being part of the Council of First Knowledge
Knowledge being attributed with power

Which is a very big strategic mistake on your part. Being trained by Wyyrlok, Saarai probably has access to far more knowledge than Piell.

Knowledge scaling:

Darth Plagueis, who owns the grant accumulation of the Banite knowledge which was stated to rival the Jedi Archives, probably has far more knowledge than Even Piell. Plagueis noted however that there are no difference organically between light siders and dark siders:
<sub>Plagueis took it under advisement. “Their time is coming, Sidious. The signs are in the air. Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith. But his apprentice carried the imperative forward, and each successive Sith Lord improved on it, Tenebrous and his Master most of all, though they wasted years attempting to create a targeted virus that could be deployed against the Jedi, separating them from the Force. As if there were some organic difference between the practitioners of the light and dark sides; as if we communicate with the dark side through a different species of cellular intermediaries! When, in fact, we are animated by the same power that drives the passion of these beings gathered below. Target midi-chlorians and we target life itself.”

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis</sub>

Here, however, is Darth Maladi creating a drug that kills lightsiders particularly but made Sith immune, something Plagueis deemed "impossible":

<sub>”I promised chaos and I brought it here. A Sith toxin -- created by Darth Maladi and dispersed by the Emperor’s own hand to kill me -- was the vector. But the toxin will not kill Sith. By design, we are immune to it.”

Darth Krayt, Star Wars: Legacy - War #6</sub>

Plagueis however has little to unlock in the force:
<sub>Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side. Determined never again to be caught off guard, he had trained himself to go without sleep, and had devoted two standard decades to day-and-night experimentation with midi-chlorian manipulation and attempts to wrest a few last secrets from the Force, so that he—and presumably his human apprentice—might live forever. His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis</sub>

This all makes sense when by a brief hint by Wyyrlok, Isen was able to create a variation of a monster Sorzus Syn, one of the best alchemist in history, deem as "nature advanced to perfection":



Maladi however, forgot more than Isen imagines, signifying vastly superior knowledge:


There's way more, but people like Maladi should already have infinitely superior knowledge than Piell.
Wyyrlok however, is the ultimate master of sith lore and rituals, with knowledge rivaled only by Krayt himself. He has utmost knowledge of the lore of Jedi, Sith, and other traditions. His knowledge should be infinitely beyond Piell. And he personally trained Saarai, who he views as his successor and his daughter so presumably he'll attempt to teach her all he knows. Under your methodology that knowledge = power, Saarai has access to knowledge and lore infinitely beyond Piell. So congrats, you just helped me prove Saarai >>> Piell.

Darth Wyyrlok IV:

This will be my offensive arguments:

Saarai's vs Stryfe:

The fight itself:





The fight speaks for itself. Saarai dodges Stryfe's TK attack, used TK to ragdoll him. Tanked his attempt to rebuke and grabbed his heart in her hand and contorted his muscles. She would've killed him if she wasn't stopped by Wyyrlok.

Stryfe:
Stryfe was noted as "Darth Krayt's fist" and "an explosion of raw power" or "raw power personified". His most potent feat probably is him stalemating Cade, stonewalling his TK:



So Saarai >>>> Stryfe ~ Cade. The same Cade who can do this:

While being below his padawan self, chewing death sticks.
Saarai >>>> Stryfe ~ Vector Cade >>>> Deathsticks Cade ~ Throwing a shuttle with insane speed with TK
ANYWAYS...

Vector Cade was able to contend with Vector Krayt after dueling Talon and Nihl consecutively.








Vector Krayt has better mini stats than Sidious, but Ostrander directly stated he's a peer of Sidious, and Jan stated he'd beat Dooku without doubt:



So yeah, Saarai not being fodder to Vong Krayt is probably enough to put her far far far beyond Piell

Saarai vs Stryfe vs Cade vs Talon
As we recall Stryfe stalemated Vector Cade. That alone probably puts him beyond Talon:




As we also recall, Saarai could've killed Stryfe instantly with TK, having his heart in her grasp. This happened in War, for Prime Cade vs Talon:





Given Cade's tendency to kill Sith as quickly and efficiently, the only reason he didn't kill Talon before she reached Krayt is likely that he can't. Given that Saarai can do that to Stryfe who's probably comparable to Talon, Saarai ~ Prime Cade sounds pretty solid. Cade is capable of giving a multi-panel fight to Reborn Krayt:

Krayt scaling to PT:

In the interest of time and my brain, I'll keep this concise

• On Mustafar, Kenobi matched Skywalker as "equals" in both skill and the force. Notably, despite his mental hindrance, Anakin was "still a 9" according to Gillard, and would be head and shoulders exponentially superior to Even Piell. Kenobi was stated to "keep up his practice" until his duel with Hett.
  
• Hett was capable of matching Kenobi on Tatooine, dueling evenly with him until Kenobi went into ultra-focus mode upon realizing Hett threatened Luke, and disarmed him (literally)
  
• Hett then trained with Xoxaan, absorbing many Dark Side powers and believe himself fully capable of defeating Vader and the Emperor
  
• Hett then got put into the embrace of pain by the Vong, which is the key to unlocking Caedus' full power. It was stated that while "Xoxaan opened his eyes, it was the vong who really transformed him into Darth Krayt". 
  
• He then studied the deepest strata of Dark Side lore for a century, killing many enemies, growing far stronger even as the Vong disease tears at him
  
• He then got a reborn, having his power "multiplied", "increased a hundred-fold". 
  

Plainly speaking, Krayt had at least 3 quantifiable colossal increase of power since matching somebody who is already exponentially superior to Piell. Cade managed to contend for a brief while, and Saarai is notably Cade's match. 
I'll go into other ways of comparing legacy to PT, for example the Acklay scaling in my next post. This will suffice for now. 
Even 'Saarai can destroy' Piell

The Outcased One wrote:The blurb aside, Jedi councilors aren't necessarily chosen for combative reasons. We saw guys like Anakin Sora Bulq who are all expressively superior to Coleman Trebor or Piell. You need to prove Piell was put on the council due to superior combat.

Anakin and Sora weren’t on the council. So what? Being a member of the council is still correlated with being some of the best of the order, as the represent the best of those who are superbly trained as warriors per my scan. You also fail to counter the point of the 32 BBY Council members being more powerful than any Jedi picking up a lightsaber before them, something you have yet to shown Saarai getting past

The Outcasted One wrote:None of these prove that the respect authority or standings Piell has in the council war created by his superior force abilities. Instead, we KNOW explicitly exactly why he was let in the council, it's because of his wisdom and/or quick thinking abilities:

In difficult situations, Piell could be counted upon to keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in the thick of the action. For these reasons, Even was selected to serve on the Jedi Council as it was about to enter its most turbulent period.
-Relaunched Fact File #52: PIE5 (2014, De Agostini)
-
Wise, calm, and experienced, Master Piell was a logical addition to the Jedi Council.
-Relaunched Fact File #52: PIE5 (2014, De Agostini)
(Credit to Durin the retarded Coon wanker)
Both quotes EXPLICITLY tells us the reason for his appointment to the council. And it's not because of his combat capabilities or his strength in the force but RATHER his wisdom, which your quote tells us is a possible reason for senior authority in the council. This makes sense because Yoda bowing to his decision in terms of Yaddle can be attributed to his wisdom as well, and not his combative abilities. Jedi explicitly values wisdom and knowledge FAR FAR more than combative abilities, as Yoda stated in AOTC that "they aren't warriors but peacekeepers", and knowledge is called by POTJ as the "cornerstone of the Jedi belief". So yes, Piell can be respected greatly even if he is relatively lackluster combatively, and no, he doesn't scale to the other senior councilors or even an average councilor.
This means that your case here fails because:
1. You don't prove wisdom can be used in combat
2. Wisdom isn't exactly scalable, unless you can prove Piell is wiser than Saarai?

The reasoning for why Piell became a member initially doesn’t matter, that has no correlation with his senior status, the argument here being that he has seemingly held this position for hundreds of years, meaning he has been one of the stronger council members for hundreds of years. Seniority again being explicitly attributed with this. This puts Piell above the likes of the B-team members, Adi Gallia and Shaak Ti. Fisto in turn being better than Maul, who is the proof that the sith are stronger than ever. Therefore Saarai has to scale over both all of the pre-32 BBY lightsaber wielding Jedi and all the sith that the Jedi are aware of pre-32 BBY to be above Piell in force power, his lightsaber capabilities being even better than his force abilities, as that is his most known attribute. You point out how wisdom and knowledge is more highly valued by the Jedi than combative abilities, as if that is a debunk to anything I’ve been saying. There are several problems with that
1. Piell is more known for his lightsaber combat abilities than anything else, despite him being wiser than half the council for hundreds of years
2. Knowledge is attributed with power in several sources
3. Wisdom is simply knowledge that also includes experience, and good judgement, these elements all being able to compensate for strength and speed, again placing Piell above other council members

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:

4. Seniority is specifically in interpreting the will of the force, which could potentially grant Piell more options in a fight having a greater idea of what the force wills him to do
Furthermore, what is seen as wisdom for the order is the Jedi Code, which is the key to unlocking the force

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:

More Jedi knowledge giving you this larger comprehension

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:

The Outcasted One wrote:No disrespect to Ant, but he isn't canon and neither is Wookiepedia. You didn't even provide the actual source. The source lost it's canonicity when it was explicitly deleted, you could even argue it was deleted due to it's inaccuracy. Even if it wasn't, I question how valid the dataclip really is anyways. But that's irrelevant in this scenario.

Why would us no longer having access to it make it absolute? If all copies of the Legacy comics be erased both physical and digital, should we simply disregard them? Even if a bunch of references of what happens in them still exists, and we can paint a reasonable picture of what happened in them? The dataclip is sourced is sourced saying the same thing 3 times on the wook, even having a fourth reference, why would someone go to such lengths? Why hasn’t been removed despite sitting there for multiple years? Also notice how Ant isn’t simply saying that he determined it to be legit, but that it was in agreement with others who have looked into it. Ant and likely whoever he was looking into these sources has been doing versus debating on a high level for many years, determining many other sources to be fake throughout

The Outcasted One wrote:So, before 2011, when the conception is that he died after Order 66, 2 sources stated that he was REPLACED on the council. Piell was appointed on the council due to his "wisdom and quick thinking" before the war started, but when it did, when combat abilities was the predominant factor considered, Piell was replaced, likely due to his lackluster combative abilities.

Piell does not have a permanent seat on the council

Star Wars Character Encyclopedia wrote:

If he were one, you could argue that he was forcibly removed, however you cannot do that for Piell in this situation. You have no context for why Piell is no longer on the council. You emphasize that he was REPLACED, as though it is this big thing, however the word simply means “take the place of”


Saarai

The Outcasted One wrote:Darth Wyyrlok III, Saarai's father and master, is more of a diplomat

We know this is probably true because he resorted to lightning, TK, sorcery, and Memory walk over dueling in his fights with the cultists, Andeddu himself, and Krayt. He only once drew his lightsaber due to being forced into it by Krayt, and even then he chose to use memory walk to "end" the fight.
His daughter, Saarai, is even more of a "non-duelist". In her duel with Stryfe, she chose to engage in martial arts instead of using her lightsaber, and then she ragdolled him
She then ragdolled him. Due to Wyyrlok probably training his daughter to follow his combat method, and her not using a lightsaber, it's very very likely that she doesn't engage with Piell at his point of advantage from the onset, but rather use the force to ragdoll him like she did with Stryfe. This gives Saarai another advantage, as she's going to ignore the field where Piell is the most advantaged and instead try to duel him where he isn't that experienced. So you also have the burden to prove Saarai will even duel Piell instead of straight up assaulting him with TK.

So she is an extremely specialized fighter, whereas Piell is an extremely balanced fighter. The only way she is effective against Piell is if she is both a ragdoll tier above him and has at least similar speed, as I’ve already shown a force push one shot kill gap can be circumvented with dueling, her being a non-duelist it would simply be speed. More on this later. She would have to be able to gather her force powers before dying, something a duelist of Piell’s caliber wouldn’t let happen. As you can see here Zannah being unable to do so when faced with an impressive lightsaber duelist, who is weak in the force

Darth Bane: The Rule of Two wrote:

You have the burden to prove that Saarai can even ragdoll Piell the same way she did to Stryfe. And even then, it’s not like Stryfe was completely defenseless against Saarai as he was able to first make her nosebleed then force push her as you’ve already shown

Knowledge

The Outcasted One wrote:Which is a very big strategic mistake on your part. Being trained by Wyyrlok, Saarai probably has access to far more knowledge than Piell.

So?

The Outcasted One wrote:Wyyrlok however, is the ultimate master of sith lore and rituals, with knowledge rivaled only by Krayt himself. He has utmost knowledge of the lore of Jedi, Sith, and other traditions. His knowledge should be infinitely beyond Piell. And he personally trained Saarai, who he views as his successor and his daughter so presumably he'll attempt to teach her all he knows. Under your methodology that knowledge = power, Saarai has access to knowledge and lore infinitely beyond Piell. So congrats, you just helped me prove Saarai >>> Piell.

Having access to more knowledge does not entail knowing more. We have no idea how close Saarai’s knowledge is to Wyyrlok either. She doesn’t seem particularly old, so it’s limited how much she could have learned. In contrast Piell has been studying for centuries

Stryfe is ass
Despite this he actually does make Saarai nosebleed, and then continues on to force push Saarai


Notice the pause in her sentence between “pressure” and “and”. We see this for Stryfe in this fight as well

Indicating this to be a tool to show characters struggling to speak due to the strain they are under.

The Outcasted One wrote:Stryfe was noted as "Darth Krayt's fist" and "an explosion of raw power" or "raw power personified". His most potent feat probably is him stalemating Cade, stonewalling his TK

If this is his best feat, then you don’t have much ground to stand on. How many fights exists between two force users that end in two pages made by the John/Jan team. Can’t think of any myself. Hardly a stalemate. Notice how Cade questions if Stryfe is the noob, calls him just another sith moron? Stryfe becomes more enraged during the duel, he stops even speaking coherent words, instead just growling “rahhhhhr”. Sith gain power from their rage, but even then Cade just kicks him away several meters, while Stryfe did absolutely nothing to Cade

The Outcasted One wrote:So Saarai >>>> Stryfe ~ Cade. The same Cade who can do this

This fails both with Cade and Stryfe showing no relativity and Stryfe landing a few force hits on Saarai, making the gap between the two vastly shorter

The Outcasted One wrote:Vector Cade was able to contend with Vector Krayt after dueling Talon and Nihl consecutively

The base Cade that fought Stryfe does not scale to this, notice Cade’s sith eyes. He is being amped up by the dark side

The Outcasted One wrote:So yeah, Saarai not being fodder to Vong Krayt is probably enough to put her far far far beyond Piell

She is fodder to him

The Outcasted One wrote:Saarai vs Stryfe vs Cade vs Talon
As we recall Stryfe stalemated Vector Cade. That alone probably puts him beyond Talon

Not a stalemate. The fight that you now post has Talon doing much better than Stryfe did. Not only does the fight last a bit longer, Cade goes into his sith eye mode against her at the end

The Outcasted One wrote:Given Cade's tendency to kill Sith as quickly and efficiently, the only reason he didn't kill Talon before she reached Krayt is likely that he can't. Given that Saarai can do that to Stryfe who's probably comparable to Talon, Saarai ~ Prime Cade sounds pretty solid. Cade is capable of giving a multi-panel fight to Reborn Krayt

What tendency. He had the chance to kill Talon right then and there in both fights you show


Why didn’t he kill her and Nihl here

Where does this tendency argument come from. Also just wanna point out that their fight you are referencing is an insta stomp, so really don’t see how he couldn’t just have done her in right then and there

Piell comparison to Kenobi
Kenobi is fast. So fast that he can handle challenges that Jedi more powerful than him could never face

Revenge of the Sith: The Goods wrote:

Kenobi isn’t credited as a senior member of the council. It’s this speed that allows Kenobi to scale over senior council members despite the fact that they should have a stronger connection to the force. Even then Piell outspeed him during the citadel arc

It’s hard to see here, but Obi does try to jump after the droid, but Piell overtakes him. This is extremely impressive considering the extreme torture he had been undergoing.

Revised Offcial Fact File 45 wrote:

Revised Official Fact File 52 wrote:

Meaning he would be even better under normal circumstances. He fought back-to-back with Anakin, both being perfectly in tune with each other through the force.

Revised Official Fact File 52 wrote:

Notice how the paragraph is begun with noting how Piell is an excellent lightsaber duelist, thus implying that is the main factor that allows for him to be perfectly tuned with Anakin, something that Obi and Ani struggles to do with each other at this point in time


This means that Piell ~ Kenobi at worst and weakened Piell ~ Anakin at best. Since you have failed to show any sign of relativity between Saarai and Krayt at any point in time I want go into it here, but I would like you to show the Kenobi vs Hett fight if it becomes relevant
Conclusion
Even Maul is above Saarai, even all the 32 BBY council members are above Saarai, until you show her having any parity to people that scales above these guys. Even Piell is just vastly above her

The retard who died twice

Meta Note:

The first thing I want to note is that nothing in Omni's 2 posts actually binds Saarai, who exists more than a century after Piell. At best, he proves Piell is a capable combatant who is extremely wise, wiser than B-team members, and scales above Maul and councilors who scales above past Jedi and Sith. But Saarai existed after Piell in an IU chronology standpoint. If I concede to every single point Omni makes right now, he doesn't actually bind Saarai. He doesn't prove why Saarai can't be stronger than every past Sith, he doesn't prove why Saarai can't stomp every Jedi before her. Which means IF you think Omni debunked EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY POINTS, and I no longer have a case for Saarai > Piell, then this debate is a draw because neither side proved their character is stronger than the other. That's how big the burden on Omni is in this debate.

Even Piell is worthy of being a Jedi

Even Piell is on the council:

Omni said:
Anakin and Sora weren’t on the council. So what? Being a member of the council is still correlated with being some of the best of the order, as the represent the best of those who are superbly trained as warriors per my scan. You also fail to counter the point of the 32 BBY Council members being more powerful than any Jedi picking up a lightsaber before them, something you have yet to shown Saarai getting past

I meant that being the best in the council doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than every non-councilor. Also pretty sure the stronger than any Jedi picking up a Lightsaber before them is a blurb. Regardless, you haven't proved why this binds Saarai.
Another quick point by the way: Jedi don't value combat. I have given examples in the first post. An incredibly wise and knowledgeable person can also become a councilor despite being lackluster combatively. Jocasta Nu is given way more respect than Obi Wan despite Obi Wan probably being able to shit on her in a duel. The Jedi council really started emphasizing combat over stuff like wisdom and diplomacy when the war started, and that's when Piell stopped being on the council

Omni said:
The reasoning for why Piell became a member initially doesn’t matter, that has no correlation with his senior status, the argument here being that he has seemingly held this position for hundreds of years, meaning he has been one of the stronger council members for hundreds of years. Seniority again being explicitly attributed with this. This puts Piell above the likes of the B-team members, Adi Gallia and Shaak Ti.

???????
Of course it matters. it emphasizes the traits of Piell that's valued by the council, and hint: it's not superior combative capabilities, but his wisdom and quick thinking, which is helpful in combat ig but not exactly scalable. Again, you don't prove why he's not a senior member due to reasons other than wisdom and quick thinking, which btw ur quote says is very applicable.

Fisto in turn being better than Maul, who is the proof that the sith are stronger than ever. Therefore Saarai has to scale over both all of the pre-32 BBY lightsaber wielding Jedi and all the sith that the Jedi are aware of pre-32 BBY to be above Piell in force power, his lightsaber capabilities being even better than his force abilities, as that is his most known attribute.

H2H results are N-canon per Hidalgo who says they are created by a random team of "experts" (sarcasm detected) and using "means mysterious. Of course, you'd be willing to accept Chewbacca > General Grievous, Vader > yoda, etc. etc.
Even if I concede this point, I don't need to prove Saarai > Any previous Sith, only Saarai > Piell since apparently he scales above them all.

Omni said:
You point out how wisdom and knowledge is more highly valued by the Jedi than combative abilities, as if that is a debunk to anything I’ve been saying.

That's a huge strawman of my point. my point was, you can't make the logical jump from he's a good duelist + he's a senior councilor to he's a senior councilor meaning he's more combatively capable than non-senior councilors. Especially since:
1. They don't elevate your status solely due to your combative capabilities
2. Piell's qualities that are stressed are his wisdom and quick-thinking ability during crisis.

Omni said:
1. Piell is more known for his lightsaber combat abilities than anything else, despite him being wiser than half the council for hundreds of years

Doesn't mean he became a councilor due to it, and also doesn't mean his combat abilities are superior to others. Notably, quotes that apply uniquely to Piell explicitly states the most important qualities of his that are stressed for his ascendance into councilorship are his wisdom, while a single generic quote that applies not uniquely to Piell states either power or wisdom are reasons for senior councilorship. It's way more logical then to believe Piell was chosen for the reason explicitly stated in my quotes, and your quote treats as a valid reason, than to say he's a councilor due to his extensive powers in the force that are combatively applicable.

Omni said:
2. Knowledge is attributed with power in several sources

And yet I don't see you rushing to Jocasta Nu > Piell, or Odan Urr >>> Yoda >> Piell?

Omni said:
3. Wisdom is simply knowledge that also includes experience, and good judgement, these elements all being able to compensate for strength and speed, again placing Piell above other council members

Wisdom isn't exactly scalable though. Of course you can say DoE Bane is wiser than RoT Bane, but how are you going to prove Even Piell is wiser than Saarai? Is it really age? Confucius was learning from 8 year olds (one of his most famous philosophy in fact), so how can you prove he's wiser?

Omni said:
4. Seniority is specifically in interpreting the will of the force, which could potentially grant Piell more options in a fight having a greater idea of what the force wills him to do
Furthermore, what is seen as wisdom for the order is the Jedi Code, which is the key to unlocking the force

Ummm based quote. But even if it's true, Saarai have access to the One-Sith lore which includes lore of Sith, Jedi, and a handful of other factions like nightsisters:
<sub>Darth Krayt’s Empire is neither ignorant nor tolerant of the many other Force traditions in the galaxy, particularly those that might oppose the Empire’s advance or those with strong ties to the Jedi. For example, the Jensaarai, though small in comparison to the Jedi Order, is one of the first groups targeted in the wake of the Sith-Imperial War. However, the Empire is not so indiscriminate as Emperor Palpatine and his Inquisitors. Whereas the Sith of the past were simply content to eradicate the other Force-users of the galaxy, Darth Krayt at least vies members of other Force traditions a choice: They can join him and pledge their loyalty to the Sith Lord, or they can die. (Rarely does he afford a Jedi the same choice.) These traditions have a less violent history of conflict with the Sith, and as such may be more inclined to consider Darth Krayt’s “proposal.” Not surprisingly, many of the Sith in Darth Krayt’s Empire are former members of other Force traditions, among them former Jensaarai Defenders, Nightsisters, and other Force adepts who succumbed to the temptation offered to them by the Sith Lord.

Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide



Though Darth Krayt offers members of non-Jedi Force traditions the opportunity to join his side, he is less lenient with those who are found to harbor Jedi on the run.

Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide</sub>

So Saarai will have a far more well-rounded understanding of the force, absorbing the philosophy of both the Jedi and the Sith, but as well as other orders like the Jensaarai or the nightsisters. Meanwhile the Jedi have a pretty strict philosophy, and they frequently ban the access to Sith and other order's philosophies.

Omni said:
If he were one, you could argue that he was forcibly removed, however you cannot do that for Piell in this situation. You have no context for why Piell is no longer on the council. You emphasize that he was REPLACED, as though it is this big thing, however the word simply means “take the place of”

The council super emphasized fighting abilities during the TCW though. It would be illogical for them to kick out Piell and replace him with a lesser combatant during the time where Councilors acted as super strategically important military sources. They needed the best combatants during the clone wars and didn't keep Piell, but chose him in a time of peace for his wisdom and quick thinking.

For all his knowledge of dueling

So she is an extremely specialized fighter, whereas Piell is an extremely balanced fighter. The only way she is effective against Piell is if she is both a ragdoll tier above him and has at least similar speed, as I’ve already shown a force push one shot kill gap can be circumvented with dueling, her being a non-duelist it would simply be speed. More on this later. She would have to be able to gather her force powers before dying, something a duelist of Piell’s caliber wouldn’t let happen. As you can see here Zannah being unable to do so when faced with an impressive lightsaber duelist, who is weak in the force

A very inexperienced Zannah sure. We also have Dooku one-shotting Anakin charing him with sabers in AOTC, or Mace WIndu force crushing GG, or the hundreds of other examples of Wizards dominating Warriors. Realistically though, neither of us are gonna prove that Wizards are stronger than Warriors inherently or vice-versa (Ofc I'm more inclined toward Wizards especially since it was noted mastery of the force is actually a more important factor than technical skill in a fight (and Saarai has a lightsaber))
Different authors have different interpretations of whether skill or force is more important in combat, and that's like the most controversial question ever. It's hard to use the force when pressured in combat, but it's also hard to use lightsabers while being spammed force attacks from afar. What is important at the end of the day then is that this fight between primarily a wizard vs primarily a warrior will be able to offset a lot of the technical advantage Piell typically has, which are more efficient in a duel and far harder to manifest when Saarai keeps her distance.

Omni said:
Having access to more knowledge does not entail knowing more. We have no idea how close Saarai’s knowledge is to Wyyrlok either. She doesn’t seem particularly old, so it’s limited how much she could have learned. In contrast Piell has been studying for centuries

You can't be serious about this meta you're choosing right? Age = knowledge = power? So Ood Bnar >>>>>> Sidious/Valkorion due to having way more age? What the fuck is this bullshit.
Anyways, I already provided proof that Wyyrlok trained Saarai wanting to make her his successor, so probably trying to give her as much information and knowledge as possible. Even if we ignore this, Saarai have access to way more information than Piell is also a good reason to put her above.

Omni said:
Kenobi is fast. So fast that he can handle challenges that Jedi more powerful than him could never face
Kenobi isn’t credited as a senior member of the council. It’s this speed that allows Kenobi to scale over senior council members despite the fact that they should have a stronger connection to the force. Even then Piell outspeed him during the citadel arc
It’s hard to see here, but Obi does try to jump after the droid, but Piell overtakes him. This is extremely impressive considering the extreme torture he had been undergoing.

???????????????????????????????????????????????
Dude this is seriously sub Lorenzo. Even Oppo's more style = better duelist is taking less logical leaps than this. The monumental logical leap that you have to take from:
Overtaking in a single jump ---> Faster in that single instance ---> Faster movement speed in every instance ----> Faster combative speed -----------------------------------> stronger combat is more fucking enormous than the jump from the bottom of the mariana trench to the top of Mt. Everest and then probably above the Earth atmospheres. What the fuck are you even talking about. Is this a serious point or are you trolling with me right now? I honestly don't want to respond to it.
BTW, even if we concede to your 'Lorenzo universe' logic, where we accept Piell is faster than Obi therefore more skilled, the quote u provide also talks about precision  and unshakable focus. For any judges without a single brain cell who honestly believes speed/precision is more important in a duel than skill and power.
Holy shit
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

Omni said:
Meaning he would be even better under normal circumstances. He fought back-to-back with Anakin, both being perfectly in tune with each other through the force. Notice how the paragraph is begun with noting how Piell is an excellent lightsaber duelist, thus implying that is the main factor that allows for him to be perfectly tuned with Anakin, something that Obi and Ani struggles to do with each other at this point in time
This means that Piell ~ Kenobi at worst and weakened Piell ~ Anakin at best. Since you have failed to show any sign of relativity between Saarai and Krayt at any point in time I want go into it here, but I would like you to show the Kenobi vs Hett fight if it becomes relevant

Ok forget Lorenzo or Oppo, this is CV tier. When did being "in tune" means equality in sabers? Here's the definition of in-tune:
_{having a good understanding of someone or something --- Cambridge Dictionary}
Obi Wan and Anakin in ROTS were "more intimate than lovers" despite Anakin being a canonical superior, and Padme and Anakin are described as "in tune" in AOTC too. Are we supposed to say Anakin ~ Padme now? Dude what are these bullshit points lol.

Darth Wyyrlok IV:

Stryfe:

Omni said:
Despite this he actually does make Saarai nosebleed, and then continues on to force push Saarai
Notice the pause in her sentence between “pressure” and “and”. We see this for Stryfe in this fight as well
Indicating this to be a tool to show characters struggling to speak due to the strain they are under.

???
Did you think this was good for your case? Saarai had Stryfe's hear in her hands, utterly contorting his muscles making him roar (which according to you means getting stomped lol) , and would've killed him if Wyyrlok didn't stop her, and Stryfe made her... nosebleed?

Omni said:
If this is his best feat, then you don’t have much ground to stand on. How many fights exists between two force users that end in two pages made by the John/Jan team. Can’t think of any myself. Hardly a stalemate. Notice how Cade questions if Stryfe is the noob, calls him just another sith moron? Stryfe becomes more enraged during the duel, he stops even speaking coherent words, instead just growling “rahhhhhr”. Sith gain power from their rage, but even then Cade just kicks him away several meters, while Stryfe did absolutely nothing to Cade

How much stronger do you think Cade is compared to Stryfe when Stryfe can:

• Match him in sabers for quite a few strikes
  
• Deadlock his TK, demonstrating parity in the force
  
• Being landed a single strike
  
• Making somebody with the pride and arrogance of Cade seek help from his companions
  

Certainly not strong enough to kill him with only a minor nosebleed? 
And the evidence for the stomp gap? Stryfe's signature roar? Means Cade is stomping him??

This fails both with Cade and Stryfe showing no relativity and Stryfe landing a few force hits on Saarai, making the gap between the two vastly shorter

Lol

Omni said:
The base Cade that fought Stryfe does not scale to this, notice Cade’s sith eyes. He is being amped up by the dark side

Which he doesn't really have control over and he's actively trying to resist. You're also ignoring him consecutively fighting Talon and Nihl in a row (where he got force choked by Nihl's cheapshot), and the Krayt he is fighting is way stronger than Vong Krayt who experienced a major power lost with Cade's escape. Neither do you debunk the Reborn Cade vs Krayt fight...

Omni said:
The base Cade that fought Stryfe does not scale to this, notice Cade’s sith eyes. He is being amped up by the dark side

Shit that's my bad! quoted the wrong fight. Here's Cade with no DS but in the same state against Stryfe against Talon:



Just like Stryfe, she clashed blades a few times with him. Unlike Stryfe, Cade subdued her easily with TK (while Stryfe stonewalled it), and Cade defeated her without needing assistance (unlike with Stryfe)
Good catch though! Almost got me there.

Omni said:
Also just wanna point out that their fight you are referencing is an insta stomp, so really don’t see how he couldn’t just have done her in right then and there

You're ignoring my point. Upon realizing Cade's new found powers, Talon's new objective is to escape the fight and warn Krayt... which she succeeded in. Yes Cade managed to land countless hits, but he failed to stop her (like Saarai contorting Stryfe's muscle in a TK grasp with ease...?). I can do into more details of why Saarai dominating Stryfe thru his force barrier is way more impressive than what Cade did with Talon in my next post, but given his tendency to kill and him having no reason to allow her to reach Krayt... oh yeah the tendency to kill:

Omni said:
What tendency. He had the chance to kill Talon right then and there in both fights you show

Did you read Legacy? He made a point of killing every SIth as efficiently as possible, as he did with IKs and Darth Maladi.
Oh and by the way, Cade's ragdolling of Talon isn't that impressive compared to Saarai tbh. He ragdolled her casual force defense, which Sidious did to Maul, yet still required an opening to dominate his active force barrier instead of ripping it open (ala Saarai):

<sub>But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Darth Maul, Shadow Conspiracy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=2m40s

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 16, The Lawless</sub>

Acklay Scaling:

Quick new argument:

Obi Wan vs AOTC Acklay:
In Jan Duursema's AOTC comics, we saw her interpretation of how AOTC Obi Wan vs an Acklay will go:



We then get a time lapse, but fortunately, we have the AOTC movie to help us here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypt1Ae1zvts

Takaways:
Fight lasts from 0:58 to 3:28, where we saw Obi Wan:

• Desperately dodging the attacks and stomps of the Acklay
  
• Running away from the acklay MULTIPLE TIMES
  
• gained a spear while the acklay was busy fighting a geonosian
  
• Desperately attempt to use a spear to attack it but didn't get any opportunities  
  
• Runs for his life again after throwing his spear at it and failing to do damage
  
• In their second encounter, it was stated the "Jedi turned into the executioner", indicating he was getting executed by the Acklay in this one
  

They fought again though! Where Obi Wan would have knowledge of how to fight the Acklay from their first encounter:


Obi Wan was stated to be "cornered", which is defined as:
_{To place or drive into a corner}
Or
_{forced into an awkward, embarrassing, or inescapable position:a cornered debater; a cornered fox}

He was cornered around the same time when he exclaimed "too close!"

Obi Wan then killed the Acklay with a weapon the Acklay is unfamiliar with due to it being conditioned to fight arena weapons. And when he did, he "finally got some time to rest" in a panel where he looked absolutely exhausted.
The acklay was actually winning and "executing" Obi Wan in their first encounter, and when circumstances shifted for Obi Wan, Obi Wan still won barely and was exhausted afterwards.
This makes sense, as it was stated that the Acklay took "All of Obi Wan's skills to fend off".

Mace Windu vs a Reek:


Jango's efforts paid off as "The reek placed Windu at a disadvantage", ofc it did save his life throwing Jango down, but Mace was so beaten down by the Reek that he couldn't take advantage of the distraction the Reek gave him.

Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao vs the Acklay:
Unlike Obi Wan, the Jedi duo faced off against the Acklay with confidence, taking it down in a shocking acrobatic display:


Obvious conclusion there.
We can compare Shado Vao taking down the acklay with confidence while talking to his sister, and their brilliant show of acrobatic display with relative ease, to Obi Wan "using all his skills" to take down the Acklay after the Acklay being "too close" from killing him and "cornered" him, and was utterly exhausted afterwards. This is all after losing and running away from the Acklay. And we can also compare this to AOTC Mace who was "put at a disadvantage" against a Reek.

Legacy Acklay vs AOTC Acklay vs Reek:
The AOTC Acklay is probably far weaker than the Legacy Acklay due to:

• The AOTC one being "kept in captivity and starved", which makes sense since Jan drew the Legacy one to be way bigger and healthier
  
• Acklays are typically "excellent nighttime hunters" with "excellent eyesight" and "three other senses" that allows the Acklay to sense the "bio electric field"
  
• Meanwhile in AOTC, the Acklay was suffering from "reduced eyesight" due to the Geonosian Sun, and also has his bio-electric field sensing impaired by the hundreds of gunshot
  
• The Acklay in Legacy benefits from an "evolutionary fight for survival", where Acklays in the wild "either breed or die", and is noted as "evolutionary wonders"
  
• The AOTC Acklay is described as "clumsy" as opposed to the Legacy one which is a hunter at its apex
  

Even then, the AOTC Acklay is a direct superior to the Reek and more formidable:


What are the implications of Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao stomping a superior Acklay to one that forced Obi Wan to "use all his skills to defeat", which is still superior to the Reek who "placed Mace Windu at a disadvantage"?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh and here's how Talon does against the Jedi duo:





What's the implication of Talon jumping acrobatics around the Jedi duo and then subduing them with the force, the same duo who vastly outperforms AOTC Obi Wan and Mace, and yet Talon still being outperformed by Stryfe against Cade, the same Stryfe who gets ragdolled by Saarai?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh and being above Mace Windu means Saarai is above a permanent Jedi Councilor, not just a long-term senior member. Get fucked Piell
Oh and both WIndu and Mace have explicit quotes as being on top of the Jedi Order, so...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyways, for a wayyyy more clear analysis, read ILS' blog on the matter:
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4458-darth-talon-vs-aotc-kenobi-aotc-windu

Conclusion:

Even Maul is above Saarai, even all the 32 BBY council members are above Saarai, until you show her having any parity to people that scales above these guys. Even Piell is just vastly above her

Not that Piell scaling above every past Sith is linked by:
-H2H results that are N-canon per Hidalgy
-A DK readers quote that also says the Sith order started in 2000 BBY
-The lack of proof for why the Sith from Ruin to maul are beyond Saarai...?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And to burst ur bubble, Saarai isn't a Jedi prior to the TPM council...?

You haven't proven Past Sith and Past Jedi are beyond Piell. If you want to use stats, Wolf Sazen has better minis stats than Piell, so wouldn't do you good. If you use scaling, there are many autistic scalings for past Jedi/Sith beyond Piell too, and if you use intuition pumps, like past Sith are OBVIOUSLY above Saarai, then they are probably just as intuitively beyond Piell.
And oh, if Saarai scales beyond a permanenet master in Windu, that means she also scales above them... (and Piell)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not a battle, Saarai stomps Piell, so does an average dog

Addendum: Strongest member:

It's pretty bad faith to suggest a quote which you haven't provided. It elevates it out of scrutiny and makes it impossible to debunk a quote you haven't provided. But to demonstrate why Wookiepedia is not canon, here's what I did:
I added lines in both Piell and Saarai stating Saarai >>>> Piell and all past Force users:



And here is Hellothere, who btw is just as canon as Darthant officially, confirming the quotes


And also I deleted every mention of "strongest" in Piell's post:


None of these are immediately deleted. They were deleted gradually by me. It shows just how fallible Wookiepedia is as a source and if you want to just be technical it has no canonicity anyways. Ant also said he forgot the reasons:


As for your legacy example, we should be glad it wasn't deleted. But if you want to prove the quote is real, here are the steps:
1. Provide the quote
2. Prove the source is canon in the first place
3. Prove why it's still canon after delete
4. THEN we can argue over the implications of the quote

You haven't even done step 1

I don't need scaling

The Outcasted One wrote:The first thing I want to note is that nothing in Omni's 2 posts actually binds Saarai, who exists more than a century after Piell. At best, he proves Piell is a capable combatant who is extremely wise, wiser than B-team members, and scales above Maul and councilors who scales above past Jedi and Sith. But Saarai existed after Piell in an IU chronology standpoint. If I concede to every single point Omni makes right now, he doesn't actually bind Saarai. He doesn't prove why Saarai can't be stronger than every past Sith, he doesn't prove why Saarai can't stomp every Jedi before her. Which means IF you think Omni debunked EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY POINTS, and I no longer have a case for Saarai > Piell, then this debate is a draw because neither side proved their character is stronger than the other. That's how big the burden on Omni is in this debate.

If I debunk every point you make, then you have no grounds to stand on. Why would I have to connect Piell and Saarai directly? Do I have to connect Muhammed Ali and Donald Trump to determine the most likely victor? (obviously Trump imo). There are other parameters to conclude the quality of a combatant than sheer scaling. X character has been seen atomizing mountains, y struggles to beat a charachter who can barely destroy a skyscraper. Who would you put as the stronger combatant? Well, the one with the massively superior feat. Piell has scaling, that puts him above Maul and other councilors as well as nearly all past Jedi and Sith. What you have to do is demonstrate that Saarai is that kinda caliber of a fighter. Otherwise, how is she gonna win? The only way for you to do that is to establish relativety to Krayt, which you have failed to do

The Outcasted One wrote:I meant that being the best in the council doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than every non-councilor.

That was never my stance, so I don't know why you even brought it up

The Outcasted One wrote:Also pretty sure the stronger than any Jedi picking up a Lightsaber before them is a blurb.

So? It should still be part of the continuity

Action figures and collectibles are put the same as television programs and published works when asked about EU continuity, so don't see why the text here wouldn't be. If the argument that it being a blurb means you would make the product more attractable by calling them the strongest, I don't see much of a difference in doing that, than in calling them masters or something, which for a normie thinking about wether or not they want to buy the product would have the same hype, but they specificcly decided to go with this. It being "the best ever to pick up a lightsaber" should therefore be canonical if it isn't contradicted.

The Outcasted One wrote:Regardless, you haven't proved why this binds Saarai.

As explained earlier, I don't have to bind her, you have to prove she is impressive enough to beat someone of Piell's caliber

The Outcasted One wrote:Another quick point by the way: Jedi don't value combat. I have given examples in the first post. An incredibly wise and knowledgeable person can also become a councilor despite being lackluster combatively. Jocasta Nu is given way more respect than Obi Wan despite Obi Wan probably being able to shit on her in a duel. The Jedi council really started emphasizing combat over stuff like wisdom and diplomacy when the war started, and that's when Piell stopped being on the council

As I showed in my first post, much (a great amount or quanitity of) of the respect Jedi masters gain relates to their strenght in the force

For Piell specificcly he has great respect from his fellow council members

With what he was greatly respected for being his advanced combat abillities

It very much follows then, that the primary reason for Piell's respect is his capabilities as a warrior, that being his most essential charachteristic, that being what every single source cites him as being. He is gruff and battle-hardened as well as senior member of the Jedi council


So he is both someone of great pure combat abillities and someone who possesses a great amount of knowdlegde, wisdom and power in the force, all of which I've shown having combative applications. What my argument is and always has been, though maybe not the most clearly expressed, is that Piell's warrior quality scales above his wisdom and connection to the force, which should already be better than other councillers, as him being a great warrior is noted everywhere, and one source specificly cites his lightsaber combat abillites as what he is known for and widely respected for


So this Jocasta Nu and Obi-Wan example really is not the same

The Outcasted One wrote:???????
Of course it matters. it emphasizes the traits of Piell that's valued by the council, and hint: it's not superior combative capabilities, but his wisdom and quick thinking, which is helpful in combat ig but not exactly scalable. Again, you don't prove why he's not a senior member due to reasons other than wisdom and quick thinking, which btw ur quote says is very applicable.

But the argument is, that his combat capabilites are qualities of his that are even more superp than his wisdom and quick thinking. What the quotes that you are talking about highlights, is that Piell can keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in THE THICK OF THE ACTION. These are his warior nature being spoken to. The council is about to enter its MOST turbulent period, so they need a warrior who can act with the authority of a council member in these more turbulent situations. You pointing out Piell leaving the council during the war ignores the mechanics of the council itself. Long-term seats means Piell can leave when he wants to, it's not based of a council decision of wanting the strongest there, where are you even getting this from?

s3 scaling

The Outcasted One wrote:H2H results are N-canon per Hidalgo who says they are created by a random team of "experts" (sarcasm detected) and using "means mysterious. Of course, you'd be willing to accept Chewbacca > General Grievous, Vader > yoda, etc. etc.
Even if I concede this point, I don't need to prove Saarai > Any previous Sith, only Saarai > Piell since apparently he scales above them all.

Would like to see this statement, so that we could debate his wording and what it means. I'm fine with Chewbacca being better than Grievous, with Vader being better than Dagobah Yoda. Even if you don't want to use it, we can look at Kenobi being weaker than Fisto in CD, a decade after Kenobi beat Maul. Then Obi can beat up Ventress pre s3 time skip when Fisto couldn't beat her in CD

The Cestus Deception wrote:Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.

Just want you to notice the road to mastery is being relaxed and feeling the flow of the Force under stress, pretty much what put Piell on the council
Piell would then scale to a stronger post-timeskip s3 Kenobi

The Outcasted One wrote:That's a huge strawman of my point. my point was, you can't make the logical jump from he's a good duelist + he's a senior councilor to he's a senior councilor meaning he's more combatively capable than non-senior councilors. Especially since:
1. They don't elevate your status solely due to your combative capabilities
2. Piell's qualities that are stressed are his wisdom and quick-thinking ability during crisis.

Argument isn't senior council member equates to being above all the non-senior members combatively. The argument is that it means Piell's connection is therefore stronger, he has more wisdom, elements that are relevent in a fight, the connection one especially against Saarai, but that Piell's lightsaber abilities is even beyond this quality of his

The Outcasted One wrote:Doesn't mean he became a councilor due to it, and also doesn't mean his combat abilities are superior to others. Notably, quotes that apply uniquely to Piell explicitly states the most important qualities of his that are stressed for his ascendance into councilorship are his wisdom, while a single generic quote that applies not uniquely to Piell states either power or wisdom are reasons for senior councilorship. It's way more logical then to believe Piell was chosen for the reason explicitly stated in my quotes, and your quote treats as a valid reason, than to say he's a councilor due to his extensive powers in the force that are combatively applicable.

The quote doesn't say "or" it says "and", meaning you have to have both. Piell ascends do to the reasons you mentioned, as you have said earlier, that is what the order values more, but then why, if the order values this the most, does everyone and even their moms know Piell as a warrior, someone to respect and fear for his skills in combat. Why would this trait not be superior to his already impressive wisdom and knowdledge, if the order values that more, but that not being the thing he is known for, that not being the quality of his that every single source cites him as. A skilled and great warrior with advanced combat abilities. Someone who wields all 7 lightsaber forms with equal proficiency, but still has the time to be a scholer on top of that. You try to isolate all of Piell's qualities so that you don't have to acknowledge that all of these elements adds up to a greater whole, that makes Piell a part of the better half of the council, even when ignoring the CN dataclip source

The Outcasted One wrote:And yet I don't see you rushing to Jocasta Nu > Piell, or Odan Urr >>> Yoda >> Piell?

Knowdlegde gives more power, but it isn't the only thing that matters, there are other factors to consider as well. One of Saarai's qualities is her knowdlegde, but Piell simply has so many other things going for him, beyond the likelihood of having more knowdlegde than Saarai, and his other qualities should be even superior to it

The Outcasted One wrote:Wisdom isn't exactly scalable though. Of course you can say DoE Bane is wiser than RoT Bane, but how are you going to prove Even Piell is wiser than Saarai? Is it really age? Confucius was learning from 8 year olds (one of his most famous philosophy in fact), so how can you prove he's wiser?

The argument here was simply put that Piell's wisdom being noted doesn't mean he is wise instead of strong, but that him having vast wisdom would provide power as well. I don't care for proving Piell being wiser, but Piell is noted as having that quality, which I don't see for Saarai

The Outcasted One wrote:Ummm based quote. But even if it's true, Saarai have access to the One-Sith lore which includes lore of Sith, Jedi, and a handful of other factions like nightsisters:
Darth Krayt’s Empire is neither ignorant nor tolerant of the many other Force traditions in the galaxy, particularly those that might oppose the Empire’s advance or those with strong ties to the Jedi. For example, the Jensaarai, though small in comparison to the Jedi Order, is one of the first groups targeted in the wake of the Sith-Imperial War. However, the Empire is not so indiscriminate as Emperor Palpatine and his Inquisitors. Whereas the Sith of the past were simply content to eradicate the other Force-users of the galaxy, Darth Krayt at least vies members of other Force traditions a choice: They can join him and pledge their loyalty to the Sith Lord, or they can die. (Rarely does he afford a Jedi the same choice.) These traditions have a less violent history of conflict with the Sith, and as such may be more inclined to consider Darth Krayt’s “proposal.” Not surprisingly, many of the Sith in Darth Krayt’s Empire are former members of other Force traditions, among them former Jensaarai Defenders, Nightsisters, and other Force adepts who succumbed to the temptation offered to them by the Sith Lord.

Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide



Though Darth Krayt offers members of non-Jedi Force traditions the opportunity to join his side, he is less lenient with those who are found to harbor Jedi on the run.

Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide

So Saarai will have a far more well-rounded understanding of the force, absorbing the philosophy of both the Jedi and the Sith, but as well as other orders like the Jensaarai or the nightsisters. Meanwhile the Jedi have a pretty strict philosophy, and they frequently ban the access to Sith and other order's philosophies.

Other force traditions having joined the one sith doesn't mean they take their lore with them and share it. We don't know if Saarai studied it, or even would if given the oppurtunity, and we don't know how much she knows, or if that can circumvent possibly two centuries of studying that Piell has

The Outcasted One wrote:The council super emphasized fighting abilities during the TCW though. It would be illogical for them to kick out Piell and replace him with a lesser combatant during the time where Councilors acted as super strategically important military sources.

Why do you keep claiming he was kicked? That has never been how the council operates. Long-term members leave when they decide to do so, and we don't know the reasonings at all. Why would the council even want the best combatents in it anyway, not sure how those warriors serve a better function there, than out in the field. Is your argument that whoever sat on the council after Piell is a better military strategist? If the council want the best combatents on the council, then why do they seem so unwilling to let Anakin on? You yourself even talked about the strongets Jedi not necesarily being the ones on the council in your first post. Are you trying to backtrack on that point?

The Outcasted One wrote:They needed the best combatants during the clone wars and didn't keep Piell, but chose him in a time of peace for his wisdom and quick thinking.

He was a logical adition as he could keep a cool head and apply his wisom in the thick of the action, now that the order was entering it's most turbulent period. That is what the quote is about, him being a logical member for the PT time period, where there is unrest and eventual war. The opposite of your interpretation

The Outcasted One wrote:A very inexperienced Zannah sure. We also have Dooku one-shotting Anakin charing him with sabers in AOTC, or Mace WIndu force crushing GG, or the hundreds of other examples of Wizards dominating Warriors. Realistically though, neither of us are gonna prove that Wizards are stronger than Warriors inherently or vice-versa (Ofc I'm more inclined toward Wizards especially since it was noted mastery of the force is actually a more important factor than technical skill in a fight (and Saarai has a lightsaber))

Dooku is simply better than Anakin, Zannah had vast amounts of potential and had already been trained for 10 years, and notice how Mace only force crushes Grievous at a large distance? That's because Mace here has time to gather his force power to use it to such devastating effects, very different than in LoE where the two were engaged in active combat and Mace doesn't defeat Grievous through force offense, maybe do to that amount of power being beyond him when under pressure from a speedy Jedi-killing droid? How come Grievous have defeated so many high caliber Jedi in his time, if not for this being an inherent trait of combat in Star Wars? That you have to gather your force power, but that you can't do that when pressured

The Outcasted One wrote:Different authors have different interpretations of whether skill or force is more important in combat, and that's like the most controversial question ever. It's hard to use the force when pressured in combat, but it's also hard to use lightsabers while being spammed force attacks from afar. What is important at the end of the day then is that this fight between primarily a wizard vs primarily a warrior will be able to offset a lot of the technical advantage Piell typically has, which are more efficient in a duel and far harder to manifest when Saarai keeps her distance.

You finally acknowledge Piell's primary quality it seems. But that doesn't mean it's his only one, his force power should already scale above the non-senior council members so he's not by any means weak in this department. But all Saarai has demonstrated is some efficiency with offensive force powers, but you haven't shown her being able to circumvent a senior council members force wall. And how exactly is Saarai going to keep her distance? What prevants Piell from just running up and slicing her in half. He has superior speed to mid-war Obi-Wan after all, Kenobi being an especially fast charachter. Would like to see Saarai replicate speed of such caliber

The Outcasted One wrote:You can't be serious about this meta you're choosing right? Age = knowledge = power? So Ood Bnar >>>>>> Sidious/Valkorion due to having way more age? What the fuck is this bullshit.

Again, there are more elements to power than knowdlegde, I am simply doubting one of your only paths to have one advantage over Piell, which is Saarai having more knowdledge than Piell. You would have to demonstrate that she can circumvent a scholer's knowdlegde, who is 8 times older than her, not even to talk about her baby years, doubt how much understanding she would have gotten back then

The Outcasted One wrote:Anyways, I already provided proof that Wyyrlok trained Saarai wanting to make her his successor, so probably trying to give her as much information and knowledge as possible. Even if we ignore this, Saarai have access to way more information than Piell is also a good reason to put her above.

Don't see how this circumvents the over 8 times years of study difference

The Outcasted One wrote:???????????????????????????????????????????????
Dude this is seriously sub Lorenzo. Even Oppo's more style = better duelist is taking less logical leaps than this. The monumental logical leap that you have to take from:
Overtaking in a single jump ---> Faster in that single instance ---> Faster movement speed in every instance ----> Faster combative speed -----------------------------------> stronger combat is more fucking enormous than the jump from the bottom of the mariana trench to the top of Mt. Everest and then probably above the Earth atmospheres. What the fuck are you even talking about. Is this a serious point or are you trolling with me right now? I honestly don't want to respond to it.

I claimed Piell overtook Kenobi in that instance, and that this is a weakend Piell, I never made the stances you are claiming here. And how is it even a leap for Piell to be faster than Obi-Wan here, we see Kenobi trying to jump after the droid, yet Piell starting from a lot lower starting point clearly overtook Kenobi, making many jumps, while Kenobi is only seen doing one

The Outcasted One wrote:BTW, even if we concede to your 'Lorenzo universe' logic, where we accept Piell is faster than Obi therefore more skilled, the quote u provide also talks about precision  and unshakable focus. For any judges without a single brain cell who honestly believes speed/precision is more important in a duel than skill and power.
Holy shit
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

Never claimed those factors is more important in a duel than skill and power, just that they can cirvumvent a gap in those areas with a high enough speed. The quote does say precision and unshakable focus, but that just means that all of these elements can circumvent a power gap, and Piell should have both of these elements regardless. First off, many statements have been shown that talks about Piell's advanced lightsaber abilities, combine that with him practing all 7 forms with equal proficiency. For unshakable focus, well, isn't that exactly why Piell was put on the council in the first place per a quite you yourself provided

In difficult situations, Piell could be counted upon to keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in the thick of the action. For these reasons, Even was selected to serve on the Jedi Council as it was about to enter its most turbulent period.
-Relaunched Fact File #52: PIE5 (2014, De Agostini)

"could be counted upon to keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in the thick of the action", which is why he was selected for the council. If that isn't unshakable focus, I don't know what is

The Outcasted One wrote:Ok forget Lorenzo or Oppo, this is CV tier. When did being "in tune" means equality in sabers? Here's the definition of in-tune:
having a good understanding of someone or something --- Cambridge Dictionary

In tune by itself doesn't give them parity, it's what the quote attributes as the reasoning for how they achived being perfectly in tune with each other through the force. The 3rd definition from Marriam-Webster shown here

Says that being in-tune can mean being in a state in which one thing matches another, which is what they would be doing, considering the in tune through the force is in the same sentence talking about them fighting back to back and the same paragraph that likely highlights Piell's duelling prowess as for how they are doing it.

The Outcasted One wrote:Obi Wan and Anakin in ROTS were "more intimate than lovers" despite Anakin being a canonical superior, and Padme and Anakin are described as "in tune" in AOTC too. Are we supposed to say Anakin ~ Padme now? Dude what are these bullshit points lol.

But has Piell and Anakin ever done anything together before this? They become perfectly in tune with each other despite little familiarity, and again the paragraph makes it clear that it is in context of fighting against the citadel forces. What allows for the tunement is very much different in both of these scenarios. Also notice how Ani and Obi hasn't reached that state yet in s3 per the scan I showed about their fight against Savage? Yet Piell and Anakin achived something akin to it, despite no familiarity

Saarai scaling doesn't go anywhere

The Outcasted One wrote:???
Did you think this was good for your case? Saarai had Stryfe's hear in her hands, utterly contorting his muscles making him roar (which according to you means getting stomped lol) , and would've killed him if Wyyrlok didn't stop her, and Stryfe made her... nosebleed?

Yes, so right out of bacta tank shit Stryfe made Saarai nosebleed, getting to the same stage he was with Cade, yet Cade kicked him many meters away and Stryfe did nothing to him. But he did do something against Saarai. Roaring wasn't saying it's a stomp, it was simply showing the difference in how they are reacting to the situation they are in, Stryfe would be stronger in his roaring state, he is more angry, yet against Cade he doesn't accomplish anything, but with Saarai he does.

The Outcasted One wrote:How much stronger do you think Cade is compared to Stryfe when Stryfe can:
⦁ Match him in sabers for quite a few strikes
⦁ Deadlock his TK, demonstrating parity in the force
⦁ Being landed a single strike
⦁ Making somebody with the pride and arrogance of Cade seek help from his companions

3 saber strikes, guess Fisto and Palps are relative then. Anakin and Kenobi deadlocked each others TK, yet Anakin has an abundance of statements making it clear his force powers is a lot stronger than Obi's. But, as I've shown with the Zannah fight, drawing upon the force mid-combat is not something you can just do easily, and thus it seems in lightsaber duels that when both opponents TK clash it becomes more of a deadlock do to how fast you have to summon the force. The single strike that was landed was Cade kicking Stryfe across the map, I don't think we have seen that happening often in Star Wars with charahcters that are supposed to be relative. As for the last point, I haven't read Legacy, but to me it seemed like it was supposed to be moreso a planned explosion to get Stryfe out quicker so that they can deal with the more dangerous opponents. If not, you would have to show evidence on what the situation even is as well as for Cade's supposed arrogance and pride holding him back from seeking help from friends

The Outcasted One wrote:Certainly not strong enough to kill him with only a minor nosebleed?
And the evidence for the stomp gap? Stryfe's signature roar? Means Cade is stomping him??

Why wouldn't Cade just win without a nosebleed? Stryfe is in the same roaring state in both instances, yet does nothing to Cade. Cade seems to be in control of the fights and can kick the guy multiple meters after 3 saber clashes

Sith eyes

The Outcasted One wrote:Which he doesn't really have control over and he's actively trying to resist.

Why would that result in him not getting an amp from it? Imagine you getting twice as strong, you trying to supress it, but you don't have control over it, like Cade doesn't, and therefore you still end up being amped, even if it's smaller than it could have been

The Outcasted One wrote:You're also ignoring him consecutively fighting Talon and Nihl in a row (where he got force choked by Nihl's cheapshot), and the Krayt he is fighting is way stronger than Vong Krayt who experienced a major power lost with Cade's escape.

The dark side can rejuvenate you midfight, so unless you can show this affecting him in anyway, it doesn't matter

Rots novel wrote:

The Outcasted One wrote:Neither do you debunk the Reborn Cade vs Krayt fight...

Don't have to, as long as the other things I've said holds true, you don't have a link

The Outcasted One wrote:Just like Stryfe, she clashed blades a few times with him. Unlike Stryfe, Cade subdued her easily with TK (while Stryfe stonewalled it), and Cade defeated her without needing assistance (unlike with Stryfe)

The whole fight has Talon talking about anger and sith emotions, Cade's specificlly, Cade gets angry starts shouting, and then when he TKs her he goes "got yer dark side right here", so not a Cade in the same mental space, this one is amped as a result of Talon's taunting. Notice how much in control of the fight Talon is before Cade gives in, meanwhile Talon is smiling and talks to Cade like it was a simple conversation. Very much different from Stryfe

The Outcasted One wrote:You're ignoring my point. Upon realizing Cade's new found powers, Talon's new objective is to escape the fight and warn Krayt... which she succeeded in. Yes Cade managed to land countless hits, but he failed to stop her (like Saarai contorting Stryfe's muscle in a TK grasp with ease...?). I can do into more details of why Saarai dominating Stryfe thru his force barrier is way more impressive than what Cade did with Talon in my next post, but given his tendency to kill and him having no reason to allow her to reach Krayt... oh yeah the tendency to kill

I mean, ultimately this doens't matter as Talon and Stryfe having relativety hasn't been demonstrated yet. However, to me it seems like Cade is letting her escape but damaged to put Krayt in a "oh shit" mentality "this guy is strong". Considering Talon and Cade's bond which you have clearly demonstrated I don't see why he would even treat Talon like other sith, he has already had many oppurtunities to kill her. Also going into the details in the next post is a bit late to do so, I won't have an oppurtunity to even respond to it

The Outcasted One wrote:Did you read Legacy?

No  

The Outcasted One wrote:He made a point of killing every SIth as efficiently as possible, as he did with IKs and Darth Maladi.

Well, Talon and Cade's relatonship seems to be vastly different from whatever Cade had with Maladi and IKs

The Outcasted One wrote:Oh and by the way, Cade's ragdolling of Talon isn't that impressive compared to Saarai tbh. He ragdolled her casual force defense, which Sidious did to Maul, yet still required an opening to dominate his active force barrier instead of ripping it open (ala Saarai)

Where does it suggest Palps required an opening to do that?

I don't care about the Acklay
Aotc Kenobi doesn't scale to Piell first of all. Secondly, Kenobi's hands were bound together in the first half, only armed with a spear at certain points, that evidently doesn't do anything to an Acklay. In the panel you then show Kenobi one tabs the Acklay with his saber and in the movie itself Kenobi dominates it

The Outcasted One wrote:Jango's efforts paid off as "The reek placed Windu at a disadvantage", ofc it did save his life throwing Jango down, but Mace was so beaten down by the Reek that he couldn't take advantage of the distraction the Reek gave him.

Disadvanteged in relation to whom? The quote just talks about Mace being at a disadvantage. I would certainly say that losing a lightsaber in the middle of a massive firefight is a major disadvantage for a Jedi, but it isn't in relation to any one being, just to the situation you would be in. It could also be that Mace is now at a disadvantage comparetively to Fett, as Fett can kill a council master, now Mace has no lightsaber, now Mace is at a disadvantage compared to Fett. Multiple meanings can be attributed to this quote. Mace got disarmed do to the Reek outpacing him, but that doesn't mean he would lose to the Acklay, that creature doesn't seem to be running nearly as fast
You then talk about Wolf and Shado beating a stronger Acklay, claiming they did better, but the Acklay isn't exactly lightsaber proof, and can't defend against attackers from two fronts either. I don't see the display here being better than Kenobi's, as soon as Kenobi got his saber he destroyed his Acklay with ease

CN Dataclip quote
Every wookieepedia citation of the "one of the strongest council members quote" was added simultaniously alongside the source itself to the wook on February the 27th 2011 by the user CC7567 the 16th most contributing member of the wiki excluding the bots. This isn't just some rando who watched these Dataclips and then cited them on the wook.
[rand]The edit[/rand]
16th user
You editing in a Saarai quote specificlly to prove a point of fallibility for the wook is entirely different. One edit was made by a top contributor for the express purpose of informing, someone who I've never seen being called out for writing inaccurate information or making stuff up on the wook. Why would he not write what the Dataclip said, what motive would he have to do otherwise, what would he gain. Why did no one correct it if it was wrong. The Dataclip is linked in the same edit I'm talking about, cited the same places as it was when we started this debate. If that link hadn't represented what the clip said back then, then surely it would have been discovered, as it would have been available. Yet it stayed, and have so for over a decade. With your Saarai edit there isn't even any source provided, not even a fake link. You try to say HT is the same level as canon as DarthAnt and though I might agree, the difference is that Ant wasn't alone in trying to deduce the Dataclip's existence and the claim of it saying what it does, but it was multiple people, and they came to the conclussion of it more than likely being real.
"We looked into it", "we agreed it probs legit"
And even if it isn't, my other arguements give Piell that status regardless.

The Outcasted One wrote:1. Provide the quote
2. Prove the source is canon in the first place
3. Prove why it's still canon after delete
4. THEN we can argue over the implications of the quote

Why do I have to provide it? It's not accesible anymore, but why would you ignore official information, just because you no longer have the original source. We more than likely know what it says. The clip was from Cartoon Network's own cite, if descriptions on figurines are canon, why wouldn't this be, a clip from the literal network that distributed TCW. Why would it's deletion making it suddenly non canonical? Why would Cartoon Network care about that when making decisions on what to remove and what to keep. TCW isn't a show that is being aired over there any longer and hasn't been for many years, and even when it was, CN would more than likely only keep clips relevant to the newest things coming up, not some random thing from two seasons ago

Conclussion

The Outcasted One wrote:Not that Piell scaling above every past Sith is linked by:
-H2H results that are N-canon per Hidalgy
-A DK readers quote that also says the Sith order started in 2000 BBY
-The lack of proof for why the Sith from Ruin to maul are beyond Saarai...?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And to burst ur bubble, Saarai isn't a Jedi prior to the TPM council...?

You haven't proven Past Sith and Past Jedi are beyond Piell. If you want to use stats, Wolf Sazen has better minis stats than Piell, so wouldn't do you good. If you use scaling, there are many autistic scalings for past Jedi/Sith beyond Piell too, and if you use intuition pumps, like past Sith are OBVIOUSLY above Saarai, then they are probably just as intuitively beyond Piell.
And oh, if Saarai scales beyond a permanenet master in Windu, that means she also scales above them... (and Piell)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not a battle, Saarai stomps Piell, so does an average dog

You still have to prove H2H results are non-canon, DK readers talking about Ruin being the first sith is just it being consistent with George's vision, so if anything it would support me, with DK then alligning more with George than most sources. For Maul and and other past sith being stronger than Saarai, I'm not talking intuition, but Saarai has to actually be impressive in order to be above someone who is above every one before them, so Saarai not living pre TPM doesn't matter. Your only win con is to connect Saarai to Krayt, which you have failed to do, and then she simply ends up going nowhere, with Piell going near everywhere, being way more versatile in his skillsets and having loads more ways to fight, with areas in which Piell is defintely superior to Saarai, and even the things Saarai is good at, it's within possibilty for Piell to be better. Piell simply wins even over a TK powerhouse such as Saarai

The Sub Dog retard who died twice:

General Debate Notes:

The Necessity of Scaling chains?

Omni said:
If I debunk every point you make, then you have no grounds to stand on. Why would I have to connect Piell and Saarai directly? Do I have to connect Muhammed Ali and Donald Trump to determine the most likely victor? (obviously Trump imo). There are other parameters to conclude the quality of a combatant than sheer scaling. X character has been seen atomizing mountains, y struggles to beat a charachter who can barely destroy a skyscraper. Who would you put as the stronger combatant?

I'm not talking about explicit scaling chains though, even implicit comparisons, like your example where u prove Y is bounded below skyscrapper level. You haven't compared Piell to Saarai at all. Even the Ali example is contingent on you not only proving Piell is impressive, but he is MORE impressive than Saarai or that she is UNIMPRESSIVE. It's crazy when your own examples bites you in the ass lmao.

Omni said:
Well, the one with the massively superior feat. Piell has scaling, that puts him above Maul and other councilors as well as nearly all past Jedi and Sith. What you have to do is demonstrate that Saarai is that kinda caliber of a fighter. Otherwise, how is she gonna win? The only way for you to do that is to establish relativety to Krayt, which you have failed to do

???
You have an equal burden to prove any previous Jedi or Sith are above Saarai (not that Piell scales to them anyways). I just need to prove Saarai is above Piell (which I provided several scaling chains for). Also why does Saarai need to be with Krayt to be above all Jedi and Sith (especially if you concede we're only talking about Sith to the scope of post 2000BBY after Ruin).

Omni said:
As explained earlier, I don't have to bind her, you have to prove she is impressive enough to beat someone of Piell's caliber

?
We have equal burdens of proof in this debate... You have just as much burden to prove that the characters below or in Piell's caliber can BEAT her. The fact that you CONCEDE you haven't bound her in any ways also means you can push the burden to ME, because you haven't given us a reason why your characters are ABOVE Saarai. Binding her in ANY FORM OF COMPARISON is still needed to win debates.
------------
Anyways at this stage of the debate, the judge have been presented 2 metas. The first is my meta, which argues autistic scaling chains that puts Saarai directly beyond Piell's paygrade. The other is Omni's methodology, which is general showing of impressiveness and skill. I think in general my meta is better because:

• It takes precedence over his meta. If Saarai directly scales above Piell she can co-opt all his wank and impressiveness
  
• It directly compares the 2 characters, over some arbitrary lines of impressiveness that are quite subjective
  
• Omni's meta doesn't even compare the 2 characters. Piell being super skilled and impressive doesn't mean he's more skilled than Saarai, which is the burden of Omni in this debate. 
  

Why even if his meta is better he fails:

• His case can backfire. Many Jedi in the past like Revan or Ulic or ODAN URR FUGGGGGGGGGG have demonstrated feats and aesthetic appeal far beyond Piell. If his case is that past Jedi are intuitively beyond Saarai, then they are also intuitively beyond Piell. 
  
• Notice that his showing of impressiveness is based on autistic scaling chains in the first place. And ones that are quite unreliable (H2H, DK young readers, a blurb lmfao)
  
• Honestly, Saarai dominating Stryfe, a character who is noted as "an explosion of raw power", or "raw strength personified", is already aesthetically more impressive than anything Piell has done (running faster than Obi Wan isn't very impressive intuitively sadly)
  

Cross-era concessions:

Notice that there are NO rebuttals whatsoever from Omni to some of the core basis of my cross-era arguments.
To give a reminder of some of these arguments:
Vong Krayt ~ ROTS Sidious:

Spoiler:

Reborn Krayt has 3 exponential power boost beyond a tier 9:

Spoiler:

Even if you completely don't buy Krayt ~ Sidious, note that I did provide evidence, and Omni completely ignored any of them. So by any metrics of judgement you should still buy the basis of my cross-era comparison.
Keep in mind that Cade performed a 16 panel duel against an ROTS Sidious tier enemy, and prime Cade wasn't stomped by somebody with three noticeably massive growth from a semi-tier 9. How would you say Piell will do when:

• Tier 9 like MFV and Sidious are exponentially superior to any Jedi. Only Yoda Sidious and KFV are tier 9s, and only Yoda and Mace can challenge Sidious, etc.
  
• Tier 8s like Mace/Dooku/Obi Wan are canonically head and shoulders beyond any other Jedi
  
• Tier 7s like Fisto has B-team quotes and quotes for being "unmatchable", and Jinn has quotes as the "mightiest of Jedi"
  

Each tier is exponentially above the next. Piell is bound below all. Sidious will absolutely decimate Piell. Judging by Omni's meta my argument still wins as Saarai would be far more impressive

Acklay Scaling:

Omni said:
Disadvanteged in relation to whom? The quote just talks about Mace being at a disadvantage. I would certainly say that losing a lightsaber in the middle of a massive firefight is a major disadvantage for a Jedi, but it isn't in relation to any one being, just to the situation you would be in. It could also be that Mace is now at a disadvantage comparetively to Fett, as Fett can kill a council master, now Mace has no lightsaber, now Mace is at a disadvantage compared to Fett. Multiple meanings can be attributed to this quote. Mace got disarmed do to the Reek outpacing him, but that doesn't mean he would lose to the Acklay, that creature doesn't seem to be running nearly as fast

???
Jango waited until Mace began to fight the Reek, which placed Mace at a "disadvantage". The Acklay is "the most formidable" of the beasts in the arena, which binds the Reek.

Furthermore, we can even compare AOTC Obi Wan to Mace Windu by their respective performance against Jango Fett. Obi Wan was beating him for the majority of the time, forcing him to flee despite having Boba saving Jango's ass with Slave One. Meanwhile Jango using only his blaster and no other equipment was able to fight relatively evenly with Mace, dodging his strike, and only losing due to what AOTC Novelization call an attack which Mace didn't anticipate would work. Even moreso, we have quotes that Mace nearly didn't survive against Jango. Meanwhile Obi Wan faced him and forced him to flee despite Jango using all his equipments.

Omni said:
You then talk about Wolf and Shado beating a stronger Acklay, claiming they did better, but the Acklay isn't exactly lightsaber proof, and can't defend against attackers from two fronts either. I don't see the display here being better than Kenobi's, as soon as Kenobi got his saber he destroyed his Acklay with ease

??????
Where the fuck did you get the idea that he destroyed the acklay with ease? He explicitly "used all his skills to defeat the acklay", and yet was "too close" to dying, and looked like this after USING ALL HIS SKILLS against an INFERIOR Acklay to the ones Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao defeated with ease while having a casual conversation:

Now I'm not sure about you, but this looks like somebody who's defeating the Acklay "with ease".
So what are the implications of Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen, a duo who gets stomped by Talon, outperforming Obi Wan against an inferior Acklay, who further outperforms Mace against an even more inferior reek.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ykw, I'll tell ya. Mace Windu has been consistently placed as leagues beyond the other Jedi of the order. Pre-TPM Mace Windu was noted that "Only Yoda and Dooku has ever beaten him in a spar", and was noted that "Mace and Yoda are the strongest Jedi to ever walk the temple". TPM Qui Gon noted that "[Windu and Yoda] are the ones he had to convince." This makes sense given that Mace and Yoda are constantly treated as the Jedi with by far the most respect (which u stated is related to power) and is a permanent member (which Piell isn't according to you!!!!). Notably, G-canon has TCW/ROTS Mace as supreme among the Jedi by far, with Mace and Yoda being the only ones who can challenge Sidious at all. There's every reason to believe AOTC Mace should be far above Piell. But of course, there's the classic Omni argument:
TCW S3 Mace >>> TCW S3 Piell >>>> AOTC Mace
But alas, not only is such growth headcanon and not supported at all in Star Wars, we have reasons to believe Mace didn't grow NEARLY as fast:
_{In this case, the two versions of Mace Windu aren't necessarily supposed to be "Mace Windu, pre-Clone Wars" and "Mace Windu, post-Clone Wars." In fact, their identical Hit Points, Defense, Attack, and Damage scores strongly imply that there isn't much experience and growth between them. Instead, the primary differences between these two figures involve which special abilities and Force powers are emphasized for the sake of flavor and playability.}

This makes sense if you consider Mace having no compelling reason for giant exponential growth compared to Anakin Obi Wan or Ventress, his status at the top already and the lack of new abilities needed to learn. This is further shown if you compare his first 2 fights with Ventress. In his first fight with her, he stated "Do not think we are equals, we are not", but in their second fight he "needed all his skills to beat her". Ultimately, I think even though Omni can make a case that from AOTC to Piell's death, Piell not only grew beyond the gap between him and Mace, but also the stomp gap needed to get to Talon and then Stryfe and then eventually Saarai, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that.

Even Cookiell

Internal PT Scaling:

Omni said:
As I showed in my first post, much (a great amount or quanitity of) of the respect Jedi masters gain relates to their strenght in the force
For Piell specificcly he has great respect from his fellow council members
With what he was greatly respected for being his advanced combat abillities

I mean aside from the fact that you would need to engage with obvious exceptions like Jocasta Nu who is shown to have way more respect than Obi Wan despite being a lackluster duelist, or the fact that combat isn't really emphasized in the order compared to stuff like knowledge, as well as the fact that Jedi with more seniority and experience in the order (Piell) are typically prioritized over relatively new ones (Obi Wan, Fisto, etc.),  this isn't really my point. I stated since my first post that I don't deny that Piell is a good duelist. What I"m arguing against is that you using these nebulous arbitrary quotes that says stuff like "mostly" to argue DEFINITIVELY that Piell is HARD BINDED above non-senior members like Fisto. He can be respected for his dueling and not be above others at the same time. You would need way more proof to provide a hard bind.

Omni said:
It very much follows then, that the primary reason for Piell's respect is his capabilities as a warrior, that being his most essential charachteristic, that being what every single source cites him as being. He is gruff and battle-hardened as well as senior member of the Jedi council

Except for that one source which EXPLICITLY discusses the reason for him being on the council?

Omni said:
So he is both someone of great pure combat abillities and someone who possesses a great amount of knowdlegde, wisdom and power in the force, all of which I've shown having combative applications. What my argument is and always has been, though maybe not the most clearly expressed, is that Piell's warrior quality scales above his wisdom and connection to the force, which should already be better than other councillers, as him being a great warrior is noted everywhere, and one source specificly cites his lightsaber combat abillites as what he is known for and widely respected for
But the argument is, that his combat capabilites are qualities of his that are even more superp than his wisdom and quick thinking. What the quotes that you are talking about highlights, is that Piell can keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in THE THICK OF THE ACTION. These are his warior nature being spoken to. The council is about to enter its MOST turbulent period, so they need a warrior who can act with the authority of a council member in these more turbulent situations. You pointing out Piell leaving the council during the war ignores the mechanics of the council itself. Long-term seats means Piell can leave when he wants to, it's not based of a council decision of wanting the strongest there, where are you even getting this from?

On a debate logic standpoint, Piell's lightsaber abilities > his quick thinking in combat > Other member's quick thinking in combat doesn't mean he binds their lightsaber abilities or overall combative capacity.

Omni said:
Would like to see this statement, so that we could debate his wording and what it means. I'm fine with Chewbacca being better than Grievous, with Vader being better than Dagobah Yoda. Even if you don't want to use it, we can look at Kenobi being weaker than Fisto in CD, a decade after Kenobi beat Maul. Then Obi can beat up Ventress pre s3 time skip when Fisto couldn't beat her in CD
Just want you to notice the road to mastery is being relaxed and feeling the flow of the Force under stress, pretty much what put Piell on the council
Piell would then scale to a stronger post-timeskip s3 Kenobi

Quote is from a tweet from Hidalgo. Don't have it on me right now. It's interesting that you seems to care abt providing the quote tho...
Aside from the fact that Piell doesn't scare to S3 Kenobi, TPM Kenobi doesn't scale to TPM Maul either. We got a large quantity of quote saying TPM Maul is above the duo (Jinn + Kenobi):

Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.
Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul


Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hanger deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease.
Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul


The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down.
Source: The Phantom Menace Junior Novel


But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.
Source: The Phantom Menace Novel



- SW.com Databank


“Obi-Wan had never been in such a lightsaber battle before.”“So this is a Sith Lord, he thought fleetingly as he dodged and leaped. It was taking every skill he knew just to stay alive. The Sith Lord seemed to cloud Obi-Wan’s use of the Force, making it hard to sense his opponent’s moves and counter them in time.”
Source: The Phantom Menace Junior Novel


The SITH LORD drives the JEDI out of the hanger and into the power generator area next door.
Source: The Phantom Menace Script


He launched a high kick that connected with Obi-Wan’s jaw. As Obi-Wan fell back and rolled across the floor, Maul backed up, luring Qui-Gon toward the power generator. Obi-Wan got up fast and sprinted to rejoin the fight.
Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul

I can go into a super detailed analysis of that fight, but these should suffice for now. Even if Cookiell scales beyond S3 Kenobi (He doesn't), he's still a long-shot away from Maul.

Argument isn't senior council member equates to being above all the non-senior members combatively. The argument is that it means Piell's connection is therefore stronger, he has more wisdom, elements that are relevent in a fight, the connection one especially against Saarai, but that Piell's lightsaber abilities is even beyond this quality of his

Again, being refer to what I said abt how this doesn't bind the other councilor's dueling abilities.
I do want to note here btw that "connection with the force" is a super nebulous phrasing. Given the context of the quote I'm not sure if it's combatively applicable. It would actually make sense to interpret the quote as referring to knowing the force's will given the other quotes abt Piell specifically.

The quote doesn't say "or" it says "and", meaning you have to have both. Piell ascends do to the reasons you mentioned, as you have said earlier, that is what the order values more, but then why, if the order values this the most, does everyone and even their moms know Piell as a warrior, someone to respect and fear for his skills in combat. Why would this trait not be superior to his already impressive wisdom and knowdledge, if the order values that more, but that not being the thing he is known for, that not being the quality of his that every single source cites him as. A skilled and great warrior with advanced combat abilities. Someone who wields all 7 lightsaber forms with equal proficiency, but still has the time to be a scholer on top of that. You try to isolate all of Piell's qualities so that you don't have to acknowledge that all of these elements adds up to a greater whole, that makes Piell a part of the better half of the council, even when ignoring the CN dataclip source

Actually... you have to prove that Piell is selected to Senior councilorship ENTIRELY due to COMBATIVE RELATED REASONS (btw remember that we have very good reasons to assume Jedi don't really give a fuck) in order to DEFINITIVELY prove he is above non-senior councilor member. If there's ANY part of his selection that isn't combat related, then you can't say DEFINITIVELY that he is above Fisto or others.
For example, if he is eligible for councilorship due to 90% dueling and 10% wisdom/quick thinking, Fisto can have 95% dueling but not that 5% wisdom/quick thinking. Given that the quotes that EXPLICITLY discusses his promotion to senior councilor UNIQUELY emphasizes his quick thinking (which is not scalable), we have reasons to believe his combative reasons are even lower.

Omni said:
I claimed Piell overtook Kenobi in that instance, and that this is a weakend Piell, I never made the stances you are claiming here. And how is it even a leap for Piell to be faster than Obi-Wan here, we see Kenobi trying to jump after the droid, yet Piell starting from a lot lower starting point clearly overtook Kenobi, making many jumps, while Kenobi is only seen doing one

The stances I'm claiming is that you think Cookiell is stronger than Obi Wan combatively, so i guess that's not ur stance? what is ur stance then?
Also my point isn't that ur making a leap to say that Piell is faster than Obi Wan here lmao, it's that it's 3 MASSIVE leaps to go from that to generally faster movement speed to generally faster combatively speed to generally better combat.
Stop strawmanning my point bruh

Omni said:

Never claimed those factors is more important in a duel than skill and power, just that they can cirvumvent a gap in those areas with a high enough speed. The quote does say precision and unshakable focus, but that just means that all of these elements can circumvent a power gap, and Piell should have both of these elements regardless. First off, many statements have been shown that talks about Piell's advanced lightsaber abilities, combine that with him practing all 7 forms with equal proficiency. For unshakable focus, well, isn't that exactly why Piell was put on the council in the first place per a quite you yourself provided

But yet you think that his speed precision and focus can somehow circumvent a GIGANTIC gap of force and even bigger one in sabers?
Also btw, Obi Wan's dueling and force abilities are emphasized at every turn yet you use the one instance when his speed is emphasized to argue that speed is the reason he can contend with the top tiers. Yet you seem to think that 2 quotes that explicitly refers to Cookiell's wisdom for his ascension on the council as inapplicable given the existence of other quotes? WTF? What exactly is your methodology then?

Omni said:

"could be counted upon to keep a cool head and apply his considerable wisdom and intelligence in the thick of the action", which is why he was selected for the council. If that isn't unshakable focus, I don't know what is

Doesn't mean his focus is greater than Kenobi? If we apply Stover verse with the hyper focus of Kenobi that notices everything around him, which is even breaching on the territory of oneness, Kenobi probably has the greatest focus of all time.

In tune by itself doesn't give them parity, it's what the quote attributes as the reasoning for how they achived being perfectly in tune with each other through the force. The 3rd definition from Marriam-Webster shown here

Your quote doesn't actually attribute Piell's skill to be what allowed them to be in tune. The scan happening to mention Piell's skill in the sentence before the in tune part doesn't mean it explains it. Matches has many definitions but given the context next to "agreeing with" the best definition in this context is this:
_{correspond or cause to correspond in some essential respect; make or be harmonious.}

Omni said:
Says that being in-tune can mean being in a state in which one thing matches another, which is what they would be doing, considering the in tune through the force is in the same sentence talking about them fighting back to back and the same paragraph that likely highlights Piell's duelling prowess as for how they are doing it.

Mentioning his dueling prowess in the same paragraph =/= attributing that as the reason they're in tune =/= magically making in tune mean equality

Omni said:
But has Piell and Anakin ever done anything together before this? They become perfectly in tune with each other despite little familiarity, and again the paragraph makes it clear that it is in context of fighting against the citadel forces. What allows for the tunement is very much different in both of these scenarios. Also notice how Ani and Obi hasn't reached that state yet in s3 per the scan I showed about their fight against Savage? Yet Piell and Anakin achived something akin to it, despite no familiarity

???
That was never the point. That point was you don't prove that skill is required to make 2 characters go in tune, i.e. Piell being more in tune with Anakin than Obi Wan means superior combative prowess. It can simply mean they have more compatible style etc.
The Obi Wan example isn't to show how in tune Obi Wan is with Anakin, it is to show even when they are in tune to an extent FAR BEYOND Piell, Obi Wan can still be far beneath Anakin per G-canon, which should be obvious given the Padme example.
BTW, Mace Windu and Obi Wan are also able to fight perfectly attuned in AOTC:
_{“No number of battle droids could hope to separate Mace and Obi-Wan, so perfect were their movements, so attuned were they to each other. But the sheer bulk of the reek was too much even for a pair of lightsabers, and when the furious beast charged at the two Jedi, they had no choice but to dive apart.”}
Yet Talon scales above them. Curious

Omni said:
Dooku is simply better than Anakin, Zannah had vast amounts of potential and had already been trained for 10 years, and notice how Mace only force crushes Grievous at a large distance? That's because Mace here has time to gather his force power to use it to such devastating effects, very different than in LoE where the two were engaged in active combat and Mace doesn't defeat Grievous through force offense, maybe do to that amount of power being beyond him when under pressure from a speedy Jedi-killing droid? How come Grievous have defeated so many high caliber Jedi in his time, if not for this being an inherent trait of combat in Star Wars? That you have to gather your force power, but that you can't do that when pressured

Indeed, much like how RoT Bane is simply far more powerful than Zannah, not to mention having Orbalisk armor which makes him invulnerable to basic force spam as well as massively increase his aggression and speed. We have quotes that explicitly states force is more important in combat than technical skill.

[quote]
Omni said:
You finally acknowledge Piell's primary quality it seems. But that doesn't mean it's his only one, his force power should already scale above the non-senior council members so he's not by any means weak in this department. But all Saarai has demonstrated is some efficiency with offensive force powers, but you haven't shown her being able to circumvent a senior council members force wall. And how exactly is Saarai going to keep her distance? What prevants Piell from just running up and slicing her in half. He has superior speed to mid-war Obi-Wan after all, Kenobi being an especially fast charachter. Would like to see Saarai replicate speed of such caliber[/quote}
I've acknowledged it since my first post. Not that I concede it's necessarily above other masters, especially not definitively.
Regardless, YOU have not demonstrated that Piell can prevent being ragdolled by Saarai (which my evidence points to a heavy possibility), or how she can spam force attacks from afar, and use the martial arts in melee that worked so well against Stryfe. Worst case she can even duel him if necessary, and with superior force abilities...

TL;DR:

Cookiell scaling beyond S3 Anakin/Obi Wan are pure horseshit based on absolutely nothing except logical jumps needed to jump from the earth's core to space. Absolutely dogshit arguments all around.
The entire senior councilorship is not completely invalid yet doesn't prove Omni's burden for them to DEFINITIVELY BIND Fisto and other non-senior members. If you believe that there are parts of Cookiell's selection to the council that has to do with quick thinking on a MACRO scale, like strategy, that's not necessarily applicable in 1v1 combat, then you can't scale Cookiell definitely beyond any of the characters he wants to scale him to.

BTW: I'm neglecting the Dataclip quote because it's not worth the effort anymore. But it does seem hypocritical that Omni understands the importance of providing a quote for a proper debate (When he asked for the H2H quote from hidalgo) but then doesn't understand why it's important to provide the dataclip quote so we can scrutinize it and debate the wording etc. Curious

External Scaling:

Omni said:
So? It should still be part of the continuity
Action figures and collectibles are put the same as television programs and published works when asked about EU continuity, so don't see why the text here wouldn't be. If the argument that it being a blurb means you would make the product more attractable by calling them the strongest, I don't see much of a difference in doing that, than in calling them masters or something, which for a normie thinking about wether or not they want to buy the product would have the same hype, but they specificcly decided to go with this. It being "the best ever to pick up a lightsaber" should therefore be canonical if it isn't contradicted.

I'm glad you bring up Chee cuz he also said this:

Seriously this is basic knowledge in SW debating community how the fuck are you basing an argument unironically on a blurb? There goes your entire previous Jedi claim

You still have to prove H2H results are non-canon, DK readers talking about Ruin being the first sith is just it being consistent with George's vision, so if anything it would support me, with DK then alligning more with George than most sources. For Maul and and other past sith being stronger than Saarai, I'm not talking intuition, but Saarai has to actually be impressive in order to be above someone who is above every one before them, so Saarai not living pre TPM doesn't matter. Your only win con is to connect Saarai to Krayt, which you have failed to do, and then she simply ends up going nowhere, with Piell going near everywhere, being way more versatile in his skillsets and having loads more ways to fight, with areas in which Piell is defintely superior to Saarai, and even the things Saarai is good at, it's within possibilty for Piell to be better. Piell simply wins even over a TK powerhouse such as Saarai

Not only does Hidalgo say H2H isn't canon, he even repeats it recently on the topic of H2H as a whole:

Yes this is about TFA H2H, but the broader comment on the H2H genre as a whole stands, add that to the "means mysterious" tweet?
Also what the fuck are you talking about for DK readers. Yes it aligns with Lucas' vision, which doesn't include Sith past 2000BBY. Which Sith after Ruin is particularly impressive, impressive enough that it requires Saarai to be in Krayt's class to beat LMFAO???

TL;DR:
Cookiell > Past Jedi is a blurb which is N-canon per Chee, Cookiell > Maul is H2H which is N-canon per Hidalgo, and Maul at best scales above Sith past 2000BBY, which Omni has completely failed to demonstrate as impressive. Your conclusion that the TK powerhouse like Saarai needs to be Krayt tier is completely and utterly basis. Your only remaining case is that IF Cookiell scales above Maul (he doesn't), he then scales above all the Sith past Ruin, an era which is noted for being relatively weak.

Knowledge/wisdom scaling:

Omni said:
Knowdlegde gives more power, but it isn't the only thing that matters, there are other factors to consider as well. One of Saarai's qualities is her knowdlegde, but Piell simply has so many other things going for him, beyond the likelihood of having more knowdlegde than Saarai, and his other qualities should be even superior to it

?????
You are the person who brought up the knowledge argument in the first place...? And yeah only one of Saarai's quality is knowledge, and in fact isn't really emphasized. But even then it should be far beyond Cookiell. You can't make a case pivot and deny ur own evidence saying knowledge leads to power when the argument is lost.

Omni said:
The argument here was simply put that Piell's wisdom being noted doesn't mean he is wise instead of strong, but that him having vast wisdom would provide power as well. I don't care for proving Piell being wiser, but Piell is noted as having that quality, which I don't see for Saarai

I don't give a shit whether you see it or not for Saarai lmao. The fact is that you can't prove definitively that Piell is wiser than Saarai

Omni said:
Other force traditions having joined the one sith doesn't mean they take their lore with them and share it. We don't know if Saarai studied it, or even would if given the oppurtunity, and we don't know how much she knows, or if that can circumvent possibly two centuries of studying that Piell has

Actually yes, the quote I cited explicitly says that the One Sith are not ignorant of other force traditions. And even if Piell studied for like 1000000* the time of Saarai he would still only understand the Jedi perspective of the force, whereas Saarai would understand multiple perspectives of the force. I'd argue this is pretty good evidence so that IF you buy that wisdom is scalable, then Saarai would prob scale ABOVE Piell lmfao.
If a person studies his entire life in the 10th century, he might not understand physics as well as a Highschool student right now because we just have far more advancements on all aspects of physics. Like the basic formulas we learn is like infinitely beyond them at that time. The same applies here

Omni said:
Again, there are more elements to power than knowdlegde, I am simply doubting one of your only paths to have one advantage over Piell, which is Saarai having more knowdledge than Piell. You would have to demonstrate that she can circumvent a scholer's knowdlegde, who is 8 times older than her, not even to talk about her baby years, doubt how much understanding she would have gotten back then

?????????
What the fuck do you mean "only path"??? This is YOUR path, YOUR argument. My path has always been scaling to Krayt and Talon who scales far beyond Piell LMFAOOOOO.
Anyways, I have already proven why she can circumvent his knowledge. Having access to a far more rounded wisdom and understanding of the force, having access to FAR FAR FAR more knowledge than Piell and a teacher who has SUPER INSANE knowledge wank who wants to make her his replacement.

TL;DR:
Omni ran away from his argument when he's losing and tried to frame it as my only approach (he's the guy who made the argument in the first place), and even then, Saarai probably have far more knowledge and a far more well-rounded understanding of the force than Piell. See physics analogy.

Darth Wyyrlok IV:

Omni said:
Yes, so right out of bacta tank shit Stryfe made Saarai nosebleed, getting to the same stage he was with Cade, yet Cade kicked him many meters away and Stryfe did nothing to him. But he did do something against Saarai. Roaring wasn't saying it's a stomp, it was simply showing the difference in how they are reacting to the situation they are in, Stryfe would be stronger in his roaring state, he is more angry, yet against Cade he doesn't accomplish anything, but with Saarai he does.

Indeed, bacta tank rejuvenates Stryfe by it's very purpose. So another point for Saarai. Anyways, Cade didn't get to the same stage as Saarai lmao. Saarai kicks Stryfe too off the bat, already dealing the same damage as Cade, and then would've KILLED Stryfe, contorting his muscles utterly. While when Cade attempts to TK Stryfe he gets stonewalled...
It's honestly super obvious why Saarai's performance is infinitely better lmfao

Omni said:
3 saber strikes, guess Fisto and Palps are relative then. Anakin and Kenobi deadlocked each others TK, yet Anakin has an abundance of statements making it clear his force powers is a lot stronger than Obi's. But, as I've shown with the Zannah fight, drawing upon the force mid-combat is not something you can just do easily, and thus it seems in lightsaber duels that when both opponents TK clash it becomes more of a deadlock do to how fast you have to summon the force. The single strike that was landed was Cade kicking Stryfe across the map, I don't think we have seen that happening often in Star Wars with charahcters that are supposed to be relative. As for the last point, I haven't read Legacy, but to me it seemed like it was supposed to be moreso a planned explosion to get Stryfe out quicker so that they can deal with the more dangerous opponents. If not, you would have to show evidence on what the situation even is as well as for Cade's supposed arrogance and pride holding him back from seeking help from friends

I'm glad you brought up the Anakin and Obi Wan deadlock in TK, because it is commonly used as proof of how Obi Wan was EVENLY MATCHED with Anakin. Some examples:

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #52 wrote:
In this battle, Master and Padawan fight fiercely, with astonishing, almost evenly matched skills, knowing very well that the outcome of their combat would forever mark the fate of the galaxy.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #11 wrote:
At the end of the Clone Wars, Anakin, manipulated by the Sith, turned away from the Jedi and gave in to the dark side of the Force. In a final blow for the heroic Jedi Master, Obi-Wan had to fight Anakin - his own Padawan - in a bitter lightsaber duel neither could win.

Even better, their TK deadlock is attributed as a proof for general equality:

So yeah... Being in a TK deadlock is good proof of being "evenly matched in the force".
Since YOU brought up this point, Jan also pointed up how they shaped many of the fights in legacy after the Mustafar duel, so this might be a DIRECT reference to that instance. Even BETTER proof of how Stryfe is closely matched with Cade.
And yes Omni, neither getting an upperhand in a DIRECT match of TK is probably the BEST proof of parity in the force, as opposed to Saarai downright dominating Stryfe in a TK battle, contorting his muscles, grasping his heart.

Also Cade's pride?? You mean the central characteristic of Cade that's ingrained into his dialogue, his plot, his backstory, and EVEN HIS DRUGGIE LOOK?? Do you need to read Legacy to understand that? Refer to my previous example of his philosophy of killing Sith as efficiently as possible.

Omni said:
Why wouldn't Cade just win without a nosebleed? Stryfe is in the same roaring state in both instances, yet does nothing to Cade. Cade seems to be in control of the fights and can kick the guy multiple meters after 3 saber clashes

Probably because when Cade TKs him he gets deadlocked, as opposed to Saarai TKing him would've ended with him dead? If Cade can actually kill him cleanly and efficiently, he would've done that without CALLING FOR HELP which is like the most anti-thetical to his character.
Note also the dialogue, he says "Syn I COULD USE some boom" which also shows desparation and the NEED for assistance as opposed to just wanting it and the ability to kill Stryfe either way.
Oh btw, comics cut out parts of fights, so you can't compare the 3 strikes to fisto vs Palpatine.

Omni said:
Why would that result in him not getting an amp from it? Imagine you getting twice as strong, you trying to supress it, but you don't have control over it, like Cade doesn't, and therefore you still end up being amped, even if it's smaller than it could have been
The dark side can rejuvenate you midfight, so unless you can show this affecting him in anyway, it doesn't matter
Don't have to, as long as the other things I've said holds true, you don't have a link

Actually it would. We have many examples of how people actively trying to RESIST the Dark Side failing massively (Ulic, IH Anakin, Celeste Morne). The catalyst is when they are forced to EMBRACE their inner darkness caused by Satal Keto, Palpatine, and Muur respectively, where they actually get access to power. Also it does rejuvenate u but not indefinitely, getting constantly cheapshotted by Nihl would still weaken Cade.
Concession accepted on Reborn Krayt link though!

Omni said
The whole fight has Talon talking about anger and sith emotions, Cade's specificlly, Cade gets angry starts shouting, and then when he TKs her he goes "got yer dark side right here", so not a Cade in the same mental space, this one is amped as a result of Talon's taunting. Notice how much in control of the fight Talon is before Cade gives in, meanwhile Talon is smiling and talks to Cade like it was a simple conversation. Very much different from Stryfe

??? That's just the way Cade talks. Refer back to personal arrogance and pride. Also Talon always take the stance of seductiveness when fighting against Cade, that's to extrapolate and to take advantage of their relationship. Talon looks like she's in control because she's attempting to manipulate Cade. This has always been the dynamic between them.
Cade was explicitly NOT calling on the dark side in this fight, and yet still subdued Talon. BTW, I would argue that Talon only looked like she matched Cade in more clashes because for plot reasons, there's an obvious incentive to extend on their fight to show Talon seducing Cade and manipulating him, as this dynamic doesn't exist for stryfe so they try to shorten that fight as much as possible (yet still shows him stonewalling Cade's TK, and Talon getting subdued)

Omni said:
I mean, ultimately this doens't matter as Talon and Stryfe having relativety hasn't been demonstrated yet. However, to me it seems like Cade is letting her escape but damaged to put Krayt in a "oh shit" mentality "this guy is strong". Considering Talon and Cade's bond which you have clearly demonstrated I don't see why he would even treat Talon like other sith, he has already had many oppurtunities to kill her. Also going into the details in the next post is a bit late to do so, I won't have an oppurtunity to even respond to it

???
i'll respond to the link with Talon next but Cade wouldn't have the incentive to allow Talon to warn Krayt LMFAO. It would be far more strategic for him to allow Krayt to underestimate him.
ALSO, you bring up a NEW rebuttal (link with Talon) in your LAST POST. If I don't respond now when the hell am I gonna respond to it lmfao. If you don't want new rebuttals in my post 3, then you shouldn't bring new content in urs. Otherwise it's just as unfair for me because I wouldn't be able to respond to YOUR content. This way we each get 3 tries to post our content.

Omni said:
Well, Talon and Cade's relatonship seems to be vastly different from whatever Cade had with Maladi and IKs

Indeed. Cade has a specific hate for Talon for manipulating him and seducing him in the past. Even more reasons to kill her far more efficiently and quickly than Maladi and the IKs. Thank you for further supporting my point.

Omni said:
Where does it suggest Palps required an opening to do that?

<sub>But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.</sub>

Omni said:
No

As is reflected from your arguments

Conclusions:

This is NOT a debate. Piell relies on nebulous scaling to downright retarded ones in the PT itself, and relies ENTIRELY on N-canon scaling outside of PT, and even then only binds the Sith after Ruin. He made NO connection with Saarai AT ALL. She stomps utterly and completely
Apologize for spelling or grammatical errors, or if I missed a point. That's not a concession, that's just me rushing this post

As an addendum, I would like to thank Omni for this debate. it was super enjoyable for me, definitely near the top of the most enjoyable ones (And not as big as a pain in my ass as the one against Vaelias). Mega props to both of us. If you win, you deserved it and I genuinely hope you go on and win the tourney. That being said
VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI   VOTE SAARAI

Darthor wrote:(Credit to Durin the retarded Coon wanker)

Much obliged.

Omni Bomni wrote:

Darthor wrote:Did you read Legacy?

No  

I think there were quite a few things in this debate that were done very well, but also a lot of things that I’d have liked handled differently.

On Piell’s combat skill relative to that of other Councilors, Darthor never really countered probably the most important quote in Omni’s reasoning of the Senior Councilors’ greater connection to and interpretation of the Force.

Omni could have strengthened his case quite a bit by providing the quote saying the long-term Councilors choose when they step down, but he didn’t, making it unclear whether it was a supported claim or just supposition on his end.

On the no-longer-available dataclip, I’d have much preferred if Omni had given the reasons for why Ant & co thought it was legit, rather than just posting a screenshot of Ant saying those reasons existed. As is, it seems like a very weak form of evidence.

Overall, I found Omni’s arguments more convincing here.

On the cross-era scaling, Omni makes a case, albeit mostly of lower-canon sources, for the Jedi Council being well above all past Sith and Jedi. Darthor pokes some holes in this, though his arguments are weakened by not really providing the anti-blurb quotes.

However, Omni makes no connection between those past eras or the present being greater than Legacy, so its relevance to the topic is not there too much. Darthor’s assertion of Vong Krayt being with the RotS Titans goes relatively unassailed, and he was able to adequately defend Wolf and Shado outperforming AotC Kenobi against the Acklay.

On Saarai’s power relative to the Legacy high-tiers, I think Darthor’s case was defended pretty well. Omni definitely widened some of the gaps Darthor was going to reduce, but in the end I don’t think it was enough to toss out the case.

On specific skillsets, I think Omni made a good case for why Even’s lightsaber combat skills would be a good counter to Saarai’s abilities, though I think it would’ve been strengthened by bringing up that Saarai was only chose to and was able to ragdoll Stryfe in a context where neither had their sabers.

In terms of knowledge, I wasn’t too convinced either way, and in wisdom, Omni definitely had the more convincing argument for why it should be valued, but I think a more clear affirmative argument for Even having greater wisdom than Saarai could have been constructed.

I have to hand this vote to Darthor, for the simple reason that Omni didn’t really make an argument for Piell being above Saarai or close enough to her power- and general combat-wise for his lightsaber talents, wisdom, and knowledge to make up the difference in his favor. While Darthor’s argument for Saarai’s superiority to Piell was not without flaws, many of which were noted, it held up better than nothing.

Darthor, there were several times I got the sense you were either misinterpreting or misrepresenting Omni’s claims as absolute when they weren’t.

Omni would claim a type of correlation, and you would attack the nonexistent claim of that being the only thing that matters in combat. Definitely important to make sure your targeted claim is an actual one.

Omni, your posts would have been improved substantially by actually connecting in general terms to the character you’re trying to prove Piell’s better than. Proving that Piell is better than unrelated characters is an interesting discussion, but not really important to this one.

On your Muhammed Ali vs Donald Trump analogy, if your job is to convince someone with zero preconceived notions of them that the clearly more likely to win Donald Trump is, in fact, clearly more likely to win, you need to find some way to connect them.

That does not need to be a scaling chain, just some kind of connection. If you had shown Piell atomizing mountains and Saarai struggling to beat someone who failed to destroy a skyscraper and connected the two performances, that would have been such a connection. That was not here.

I get that your knowledge on Legacy going in was limited, but then it becomes a matter of choosing your battles. If your goal is to prove Piell is better than most give him credit for against other PT characters, but you have no idea and don’t really care how he stacks up against a side character from a comic series you haven’t read from a different era, probably don’t agree to that debate; either try to get a more closely connected character your opponent would be willing to rep, or rep a different character yourself and leave Piell for another time.

That being said, I did like a lot about the pro-Piell case.

First post (Omni)
- opening in favor of Piell was really solid, although in many parts it was infering his status from rather general quotes about the era from background sources and from Piell's more... "social" status and some of those parts were unconvincing in nature; I think you don't really need Star Wars knowledge to realize this is all rather dubious, so overall there were some very good parts, but also many that felt rather unconvincing

Second post (GLO)
- responses there were legit, reasonable, fairly simple and obvious, but just logical and on point; lots of other quotes from honestly equally second-rate sources (you don't really need a lot of knowledge to think that notes from various magazines are next to what truly happens on screen etc), but very well chosen because they felt complimentary to stuff Omni posted, continuing on the thoughts he quoted, but in a manner not really good to him - this was a really solid moment for GLO
- some neat stuff about Piell's chronology that... actually didn't really lead anywhere too much and felt kinda dissapointing; there were many solid points and interesting notions, but no epilogue to them
- good points on Saarai's style of fighting, but I kinda felt it can be a problem; in Star Wars, you can win the fight by Force usage if there's a tremendous, huge gap, otherwise everybody has to rely on lightsabers to decide fights and it's something clear to everybody from a perceptive normie to Force experts and autists
- Maladi knowledge scaling didn't convince me too much because when I read that I instantly thought that these characters actually had different specialties and it was Maladi who was the biological expert etc, and again, I kinda didn't feel there was any real capitalization on the knowledge difference mattering; the points made felt too generic
- good content on Stryfe, good choice on the Cade comparison while also using only scans from before this fight, otherwise it would be a terrible point easy to destroy given Cade is the protag so he undergoes constant development etc

Third post (Omni)
- good points on the Council stuff, I felt this was defended as much as it could and actually made me consider this as some general tool for Piell's placing, which is rare given how ranks really rarely speak about power in SW actually; good stuff, really
- extremely good counters on the Force advantage stuff, I absolutely loved this part
- really good counters on the Cade stuff!
- I liked the point about Piell's speed because the minor TCW moment is really riddled with circumstances that should hinder Piell as Omni said, and it's within the primary source for Piell and one of the primary sources for Kenobi - really great

Fourth post (GLO):
- "Also pretty sure the stronger than any Jedi picking up a Lightsaber before them is a blurb. " - eh, I 100% agree but it was written too late and not really elaborated on; I would love to see some short explaining on why quotes like these are second or third rate next to what actually happens onscreen; I try to see debates as self-sustaining content that explains everything from A to Z and serves as a closed case for the character so that felt super meh, especially given how I agree that all the quotes from the backcover of SW-themed kids cereal are really low on the scale of thigns lol
- all the other parts about Council stuff felt like running in circles at this point, I don't feel like anything more could be said here; Omni established Piell's status as some good starting point for Piell wank at this point, but nothing overly dramatic because stuff like this only serves well as a starting ground
- I instantly thought the examples of characters dominating others with the Force felt terribly weak; Anakin was lightninged when he was far away from Dooku and Grievous isn't a Force user lol, it felt bad even from a "perceptive normie" viewpoint imo
- good counters later on
- good stuff on Cade&Stryfe content
- awesome Acklay stuff given the same authors! it felt super convincing

Fifth post (Omni):
- Council and knowledge stuff felt done at this point and just nitpicking and running in circles; no fault of any of the debaters, it's just that as a reader I didn't feel like there's nothing more to gain here
- short but good points on Cade&Stryfe, I love how advantage swings here to whoever has the last word lol
- low quality counters on the animal stuff, and it would be super easy to go explaining how fighting animals is totally different to everything else in SW and how random and chaotic this kind of stuff is... lots of potential here, all wasted

Sixth post (GLO):
- good summary

In the end, I'm gonna call it a draw. I feel like Omni had better points lots of the time and defended his case really well, but failed to demonstrate any clear connection between Piell and Saarai. I felt convinced about Piell's status and formidability, but nothing really convinced me Piell is exactly > Saarai.

On the other hand, I don't feel like GLO managed to push anything besides the animal comparison to any clear advantage.

1/2 - 1/2
Draw by repetition

== Judgement ==
Methodology: I will be judging this debate from the perspective of someone who knows the broad strokes of the EU, but has drawn no personal conclusions on this topic. I will be looking for what arguments convince me the most from this perspective.

My reactions will be in the form of emojis that I feel while reading each post.

== Omni Bomni Post 1 ==


== Darthor Post 1 ==


== Omni Bomni Post 2 ==


== Darthor Post 2 ==


== Omni Bomni Post 3 ==
Close to Nirvana, but found Samsara


== Darthor Post 3 ==


== Conclusion ==
I liked the headspace where Omni was in throughout the debate, though he fumbles the bag a bit when he doesn't try to connect to Saarai at all which would make this far less nebulous for me to judge.

Darthor had a lot of cringe going on in his responses, and a few times it felt like he was trying to misinterpret what Omni was saying. Didn't appreciate his ultimatum towards the judges. Would have liked to hear more about Saarai and why she ought to be highly ranked like what Omni was going for with Piell.

Honestly, neither case informed me to a convincing degree about how Saarai vs Even Piell would go. I personally liked Omni's posts more.

Even "Omni beat Darthor" Piell.

Somehow I get sick whenever someone wants me to judge a debate, so I will keep this short. The debaters have been kept waiting long enough anyways

Sourcing and scans: A big question in this debate has been regarding the importance of posting scans, with specific reference to the CN quote. Darthor, to some degree, explained why using wookieepedia and Ant as a source isn't valid, and that the actual quote has to be in play for him to even respond to. However on that note, both debaters in general had a habit of making claims without actually sourcing them or providing quotes for them, it's just that the CN example was the one most pointed out. I will only hold the instances argued by their opponents against them (such as the CN quote and the quote saying that H2H results don't matter), but in general my advice would be to always provide the evidence you refer to

Scaling vs hype: This is probably the strongest factor in Darthor's favour. None of what Omni says makes Piell good matters if Saarai explicitly scales above him. Or rather, Omni made no case for why it would. And although Omni poked holes in some of Saarai's scaling, and lessened some of the gaps proposed by Darthor, he also left parts of the scaling entirely untouched, and those that he did touch he didn't convincingly debunk, only weaken. If Omni had made some point about why the scaling doesn't matter, or even given some comparison between Evan or Saarai, something like one atomizing a mountain and one struggling with someone who can't even destroy a skyscraper, maybe he would have something to counteract Saarai's scaling, but he did nothing of the sort

Even so, I found that lots of Darthor's responses to Piell's hype were lackluster. Darthor's argument at first was that Saarai isn't really a warrior and would keep her distance to abuse force powers, avoiding a lightsaber battle entirely, later on he backtracked saying that Saarai could duel him and abuse the fact that she's more powerful, which would only allow Piell to use the advantages in lightsaber combat he has that Darthor never really countered .

Animals: Kind of dislike that a lot of this was just a slightly reworded version of ILS's blog, including mimicing his rhetoric:pain: . Though in terms of the actual scaling, Omni doesn't really counter it all that well.

Piell vs the Council: Omni's arguments for Piell's place in the council are pretty strong, although Darthor does make a decent case for why Piell's combat skills > piell's wisdom > other councilor's wisdom, doesn't mean Piell's skills > the skill of other councilors. However Omni also makes a decent point of how Piell's wisdom is infact related to his combat skills. I find Omni's argument for Piell > Kenobi weak:( , but Darthor completely failed to make a convincing debunk for it . However Omni also made no counters to Piell in the end being sub rots titans, nor any counters to how Krayt scales to them.

Who wins?: In the end I think that both debaters performed roughly evenly here, but the remaining issue is that Omni never actually gave us any actual case for Piell > Saarai, moreso just provided a Piell RT. Even if Darthor's case had plenty weaknesses, the overall point of Saarai even loosely scaling to Krayt and being above/comparable to the ROTS titans stands. So my vote goes to Darthor

Future advice to both debaters: Remember to source your arguments, and to provide scans and other evidence for your claims. Don't just say why your character is good or even just why they're better than that of your opponent; try to give an image of how your character would actually fight/beat them. Also run a spell-check over your posts before posting them as there were some wrong words used in wrong situations, and some sentences that didn't really make sense. Note I'm a hypocrite for saying this as I never spell-check my posts, but what are you going to do about it

Future advice to Darthor specifically: Read the arguments of your opponents more carefully. Try to make all your arguments your own. And even if something your opponent says doesn't make sense to you, or sounds completely stupid to you, try to respond to the claims rather than calling them stupid. Since even if they're stupid, they might harm your case if not countered. I have no problem with banter, but don't let it take priority over the debate itself.

Future advice to Omni specifically: Make sure that your case actually has some manner of comparison between the characters that shows why yours is better. I agree that pure scaling isn't necessary, but you do need some manner of comparison. You point out Ali vs Trump, or a character that atomizes a mountain vs one that is sub-skyscraper level, but you don't actually have anything like either of those examples in your actual case.