SS - Lord Hoth (Vaelias) vs Odan Urr (Darthor)

Darthor wrote:-The Sith left for Kaan to abuse are very little. Most of the Sith has died. Qordis, Githany, Kopecz, and Ka’sim are all not there. So the most powerful of the brotherhood are dead already. Technically, no, the Sith at the Thought Bomb where all the best of the Brotherhood.

the Dark Army was woefully small. Less than two thousand Jedi compared to ten times that number that had followed Kaan into the first few battles. Still, small though they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead, having been overpowered by Hoth and the Army of Light. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Darthor wrote:Meaning, again when we calculate and accurately gauge the absolute maximum of Lord Hoth’s power: we know: 1. Him with absolute bloodlust, a rage amp, and ⅓ of his army is incapable of beating an ambush. 2. His absolute max power is completely incapable of defeating the small amount of brotherhood left in the thought bomb, and requires AT LEAST 99 other Jedi. So no, the Hoth = Entire Jedi Army > Entire Sith Brotherhood logic is complete and utter bullshit given these 2 very explicit caps on his power. 

Darthor wrote:Obviously the most important argumentation that came from Vaelias, I will be addressing all the arguments from him that might be attributed to the idea that Hoth is “all the Jedi” and Kaan is “all the Sith”. Let’s first address the “all the Sith” part

Reaching out to them with the undeniable power of the Force, he fed them, rejuvenated them, and filled their hollow spirits. "We are strong. Stronger than the Jedi. We are the champions of the dark side, and we will crush Lord Hoth and his servants of light!" -Path of Destruction

Sirak moved in again, his training saber moving so quickly that Bane could hear the sizzle as it split the air. Bane leapt forward to meet the challenge, trying to call up the power of the dark side to anticipate and block the dual blades moving too fast for his eyes to see. He felt the Force flowing through him, but it seemed distant and hollow: the veil was still there. He was able to keep the paralyzing edges of Sirak's saber at bay, but it required him to concentrate all his attention on controlling his own blade . . . leaving him vulnerable to the real purpose of the attack being unleashed against him. -Path of Destruction

His words carried the righteous weight of truth. Last time he'd felt hollow inside, as if something had been taken from him. This time he could still feel the Force flowing through him in all its savage glory, filling him with its heat and power. This time the dark side remained his to command. -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:When we take the broader context of the novel, it was repeatedly noted that Lord Kaan uses subtle manipulations of emotions to make people feel inspired or vice versa “He could change the course of a war with his battle meditation. He could inspire loyalty in the other Lords through subtle manipulations of their emotions. But he had never experienced a premonition like the one that had brought her to his tent in the middle of the dark night.” … “Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force. Yet he wasn’t about to surrender so easily. Not while he still had cunning, guile, and his unique talents of persuasion on his side.” Path of Destruction So yea no the narrative of the novel suggests he was trying to inspire them by subtle manipulations of their emotions instead of outright connection to their spirit. ?

He could sense his Master's summons in the Force, and he could not resist the beckoning much longer. Lord Kaan was calling them all, the entire Brotherhood. -Darkness Shared

Darthor wrote:????? The context of the passage you cited was literally talking about Jerec, not Kaan So uh how tf is this relevant to Kaan representing all the Sith? Also it was noted literally 5 times in the novel that the image of Kaan and Qordis was "conjured up by his mind" and part of his "subconscious", so even the Kaan is powerful enough to leave logic fails utterly. (5)

Darthor wrote:???? The calling of Kaan works not because of some sort of “spiritual connection” between him and the Sith but because of his telepathic ability Notice that this is different from Luke’s warning of the Jedi all around the universe, because as noted above, Lord Kaan uses “subtle manipulations of their emotions” to slowly dominate their minds. This is why we have always seen Kaan “promise them victory” for multiple times as noted in the above quote. This coupled with the subtle manipulations quote seems to suggest that he uses slow propaganda as well as a small tuck of the force to subtly manipulate their emotions instead of outright domination, as then he wouldn’t have to “promise them victory” he just has to force them to do whatever he says. Meaning that not only does this fail to prove your “spiritual connection” theory, but the analogy with Luke is also false.

The details were too sharp and clear to call it a dream; the experience too vivid and real. It was a vision. There was a link between the two of them, a bond established through their time together studying the Force. A connection between mentor and student was not unheard of, although Githany was no longer sure who had really been the Master and who the apprentice in their relationship. -Path of Destruction

But they are connected. Profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. -Voices Script

"It is pointless to resist, my son" -Return of the Jedi

Darth Vader doubted himself for the first time in years. But the Emperor's hold on him was deep and Luke could not break through - Star Wars Annual 2012

Relaunched Fact File #108 wrote:

Darthor wrote:Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 3 ???? Aside from the obvious, i.e. the sentence isn’t supposed to be taken literally, we need to look at CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT and also narrative. For context, it was noted several times in the novel that the reason Hoth was broken in spirit is because he feels the stress and pressure of Jedi dying so he feels stressed. This is reiterated everywhere through-out the story, for example he can’t sleep the day before the final battle, or the dream of pernicar, etc. etc. Furthermore, as noted before, broken spirits is a FIGURATIVE SENTENCE meaning to destroy someone’s feeling of determination, it does NOT mean that the spirit of Hoth is LITERALLY dying, a notion that isn’t supported ANYWHERE in the story.

I'm dying with every Knight… every death is a burning nail in my chest! - Jedi vs Sith -Jedi vs Sith

Darthor wrote:???? Your quote says that’s where ANGER is released, not spirit. And again his spirit literally dying is taking a figurative statement hyper-literally.

"Yoda will always be with you" -Return of the Jedi

the true war is waged in the hearts of all living things, against our own natures, light or dark, that is what shapes and binds this galaxy, not these creations of man -Knights of the Old Republic II

In the heart of a Jedi lies their strength, every Jedi who ever lived lives in you. -Rise of Skywalker Graphic Novelisation

Darthor wrote:Check above. This is another statement that doesn’t mean literally. Broken spirit is a term. For example: “by defeating the lakers in the finals, Bill Russel broke the spirits of the Lakers fan for once and for all”. This quote obviously doesn’t literally mean that the Lakers fan’s spirits got broken. It’s a saying. 

Darthor wrote:??? No it doesn’t. Avatar means: “an incarnation, embodiment, or manifestation of a person or idea.” Defender means: “a person who defends someone or something.” Do I really really have to stress how absolutely different somebody who literally embodies the light side is from somebody who defends it? Hopefully not

"You're right, old friend," he said. The words were smooth and easy; he spoke as if a great weight had been lifted from him. He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side. And suddenly, inexplicably, Kopecz was reassured -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:Since most of your evidence for Yoda doesn’t really discuss the concept that he has a spiritual connection, but that he has a profound importance on the Jedi order so his death / killing him will obviously have a profound impacts on the Jedi Order. I also want to preface here that I’m not necessarily against this theory, and it’s truthfulness REALLY doesn’t affect the debate, but I would say that to a neutral audience that’s probably not convincing enough, and you would have to prove it more explicitly than what you did.

But they are connected. Profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. -Voices Script

Darthor wrote:The “thread” between Dooku and Yoda probably refers to their private relationship that they were close to each other, not some time of spiritual connection. As noted in the quote, Dooku might use this “relationship” to strike at Yoda. This quote doesn’t prove all the Jedi have some sort of spiritual connection with everybody else.

Sidious emerges from the glow of the sacrificial altar. The illusion has ended. Sidious has failed to break Yoda’s spirit. The Sith Lords will need more time to defeat Yoda and the Jedi -Sacrifice Episode Gallery

Darthor wrote:Sure but the quotes you cited seems to be talking more at the fact that the force in of itself is interwoven in threads instead of some spiritual connection between the Jedi. 

Darthor wrote: ?????????????? The “single host” refers to the Army of Light, not Lord Hoth. Yes they all collected to form an army, that doesn’t mean they have some sort of spiritual connection that Lord Hoth benefits from.

I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were—I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why— but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy. -Shatterpoint

Darthor wrote:Let’s say this is true, you would have to prove both that Star Wars took elements specifically for the connection Even if the connection exists that Hoth will benefit from it 

Darthor wrote:Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 4
Uhhhhh no.
Firstly, the first quote you used to support this claim is talking about the fact that he takes reassurance from the fact that his followers remain loyal to him, not literal strength in the force. And his soldiers calling his name in respect means what exactly for personal combat again?

Darthor wrote:Ok technically this isn't supporting the theory but I do want to note that THIS DOESNT IN ANY WAY SUGGEST HOTH IS ABOVE ANYBODY KATARN EVER MET!!!
Also sure this is impressive but seeing Odan urr's statue also fills Tionne's heart with pride:

Darthor wrote:The first 2 quote you talked about was explicitly referring to the fact that the Sith always doom themself due to infighting, while the last 3 was literally during the period where the Sith are in hiding and didn't reveal themself to the galaxy lolol. Furthermore, as noted before:
ANY NOTION THAT HOTH IS ABOVE THE ENTIRETY OF THE BROTHERHOOD IS BULLSHIT AND COMPLETELY FALSE

Darthor wrote:We have 2 very explicit cap on Hoth's power, where him with a rage amp and large Jedi forces can't beat a fraction of the Brotherhood. So when Vaelias try to run the theory that Lord Hoth has more "cosmic relevance than the entire brotherhood" or whatever INSTANTLY NEGLECT THE ARGUMENT as the text explicitly goes against such a theory.

Instead, Shimrra was very much alive and all the more intimidating for it. In him was concentrated the combined strength of the Yuuzhan Vong species, and if he couldn't be defeated, then all that Luke had done to reach this point would amount to nothing. -The Unifying Force

Darthor wrote:Even if all that I said above isn't true, let's consider the validity of this argument. What exactly does the spiritual connection encompass? If it's a community source of power that every Jedi can call on, then would Hoth still have said power in this fight? Notice that Vaelias gave NO NUANCE as to how do the Jedi have access to this power. Say that this fight happens on a random deserted planet with NO other Jedi or Sith in the galaxy, can Hoth still have access to the power? Based on what? If it's a community energy field is it based on the other Jedi existing? Based on what if it isn't? Vaelias' own evidence is that he absorbs and represents the power of the army of light, but if they don't exist in the fight can he still use that power?

"Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!" And it was the whole of the Jedi Order that rocketed from its huddle, making of its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground." at an end your rule is, and not short enough it was, I must say." -Revenge of the Sith

He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. - Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

He had thought of his diminished abilities as a personal failure—owing to the fact that he had lost his faith in the Jedi order, allowed his two Padawans to die, grown thought-bound—when, in fact, it was the Force as the Jedi had known it that had been defeated. The flame extinguished. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

Darthor wrote:This calls into question other parts of your posts. For example, if the force or the energy field for the Jedi grows stronger every generation, then wouldn't Hoth benefit from the stronger force? If they are fighting at the same time wouldn't that mean they are using the same energy? If Vaelias sees fit to use the possibility that "the force is stronger in the bygone eras" as a valid rebuttal against Nadd > Tenebrous, then why is the force being stronger in Hoth era not a valid rebuttal to Hoth > Urr? 

Darthor wrote:The gist of what I said is Vaelias arguments has virtually no nuance whatsoever. He failed utterly to explain how his theory will manifest in this fight, and no elaborations on whether the feats are even applicable in a debate.

Darthor wrote:Probably the most important part of my rebuttal: If Hoth has access to the power of all the Jedi, why can't Odan Urr? Odan Urr has access to a telepathic link with every Jedi during every assembly:

But quiet Cay prepare yourselves, the spokesman for the Jedi is a Master named Odan Urr, he is a telepath and if you’ve never experienced his form of communication the first time can be... disconcerting -Dark Lords of the Sith #3 Audiodrama

Darthor wrote:So... EVEN IF all I said above isn't true, who would presumably be more likely to have a link to the Jedi similar to Yoda? One that relies on hyper-literal readings of figurative quotes or the one with a telepathic link with the Jedi during every assembly and is explicitly called the Yoda of the era? Add that to the fact that the TOTJ Jedi are superior to the Bane era Jedi in every way... yea this argument isn't even good for Hoth.

Darthor wrote:Firstly, again, that is literally a metaphor. But is Vaelias using hyper-literal readings new to us? Secondly, note the specific reasons for this rage amp: his friend pernicar is in danger. So if Pernicar isn't in danger here, and Jedi don't rely on rage in combat, can he enter to stage at will? Proof? Thirdly, yea I bet the Maw can't beat a Sith ambush with 1/3 of the Army of the Light LOL

Though seemingly unaware of him, he was aware of it, and all that it contained. There were memories of a youth spent exploring the stars, a passion for a woman long dead, and a planet frosted with ice and snow. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

I suspect the name was originally chosen to be symbolic of his demeanor: cold, grim and harsh. -SWTOR Forums Drew Karpyshyn

The Jedi domains were islands of peace and justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their parents in the way of the Force. Eventually, even the office of Supreme Chancellor and the rule of Coruscant itself were ceded to a line of Jedi Masters. - Essential Guide to Warfare

Darthor wrote:Oh shit? I might have to concede that Hoth is Jun Seros level now Also interesting fact I encountered that's not very relevant is that during the ruusan campaigns there are many self-proclaimed battlemasters although hoth is the official one. 

Darthor wrote:1. The Dark Holocron doesn't just contain power, it explicitly contains "Sith knowledge and lore for the past 100,000 years"

Darthor wrote:2. The reason Odan Urr has unique knowledge is because unlike the other Jedi, he extensively studied the lore with deep meditation and conversations with the council for CENTURIES

Darthor wrote:Yeah sure so what if the entire council has access to the knowledge, ig they're all above Lord Hoth now 

Darthor wrote:1. The simple fact that the NSW Jedi lost power? Should also be noted that the power of the Jedi in the valley that was absorbed into Jerec got sever forced.

The Jedi closed his eyes, resisted the temptation to look at the light that strobed against his eyelids, and sent a series of commands. He gathered the Force around him, shaped it into a protective cocoon, and sealed Jerec within. Jerec felt a sense of warmth and peace as the cocoon of light formed around him. It was a wonderful sensation - and one he enjoyed, until something went wrong. The Jedi fell, struggled to stay aloft, and fell again. Something, or someone, had cut his access to the dark side of the Force... Who? How? The Dark Jedi fought to break through and knew it was too late. The dark, nearly black column of energy that pushed up out of the mound had been severed, and he, along with the rocks that had risen with him, plummeted to the ground. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Darthor wrote:2. Why exactly is Hoth superior in combat? You have never proved this

Darthor wrote:-There are 2 very explicit caps on Lord Hoth's power as implemented in the novel itself, signifying him with a rage amp and 1/3 of the Army of Light can't beat an ambush, and he needs a MINIMUM of 99 Jedi to defeat the Brotherhood, or what remains of it.

Darthor wrote:-The arguments and evidence from Vaelias on Hoth absorbing the power of the Jedi doesn't work as it's based on hyper-literal readings of figurative quotes

Darthor wrote:-Even if it does work, his conclusion is explicitly against the narrative of the story

Darthor wrote:-Even if it's not, the theory is likely not applicable in a versus debate anyways due to the lack of nuance

Darthor wrote:As noted above in my post, Lord Hoth' superiority to Lord Kaan is based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not only is the theory that Lord Hoth is "all the Jedi" and Lord Kaan is "all the Sith" in of itself based on nothing, but the Jedi > the Sith is also false given the quotes you talked about was either addressing infighting or about the Jedi during the age where the Sith are LITERALLY IN HIDING. So no Lord Hoth DOESNT scale above Kaan in any shape or form, and neither is Lord Kaan the source of the BoD power. I will however be willing to accept that Lord Hoth is superior to the average BoD member but the gap is far from what you make it be.

We learn that the Jedi Bendu knights have known the force of others for a hundred thousand years, and that they were the most powerful warriors in the Universe until “the tragic Holy Rebellion of “06””.66 However, it is not revealed whether “06” refers to a specific period of time. -Star Wars, The Rough Draft, May 1974

"You try my patience, old one. We conjured an army from nothing... We turned freighters into warships... we fought seven terrible battles... Battles in which thousands ofJedi died. In spite of their superior numbers, in spite of their brutality, in spite of their willingness to invoke the dark side of the Force, the Brotherhood of Darkness lost all but two of those engagements. Only one choice remains to them... and that's surrender. Why deny the obvious?" -Dark Forces Jedi Knight

Darthor wrote:The problem here is that being a "novice" doesn't mean less power. As I explained before. Also noting that since I already established that the Ancients are FAR FAR more powerful than the brotherhood, then the Ancients will also scale massively above Kyle Katarn

As we fleshed the idea out, we discovered two problems. The first was that Kyle ended Jedi Outcast as a pretty powerful Jedi. If he were to take these missions, wouldn't he just breeze through everything as a Jedi superhero? The second problem was that stand-alone missions felt a little disjointed in terms of any kind of plot progression. Fortunately, we had solutions to both. For the first, we decided you would play as a student, new to the Jedi Academy. In keeping with the idea of letting players customize their gameplay experience, we then also wanted to allow players to customize their own characters! You may already know this, but to reiterate, you can choose your species, appearance, and clothing style. Then, to keep building on the story of the Jedi Knight series, we made Kyle Katarn integral to the game by making him your teacher at the Jedi Academy! -Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy Designer Diary #1

Briefly possessed by Ragnos, Axmis wielded incredible power, yet she was still defeated by Korr -The Complete Encyclopedia

The Twi'lek Alora served as her student. Jedi student Jaden Korr confronted Axmis on Korriban, where she had used an ancient Sith artifact to reawaken the spirit of Marka Ragnos. Briefly possessed by Ragnos, Axmis wielded incredible power, yet she was still defeated by Korr. -Tavion Axmis Databank

Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.
-Tales of the Jedi: The Golden Age of the Sith 2

Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, Marka Ragnos -Chronicles of the Old Republic

After killing Tavion, Kyle tries to stop you. Kyle is much more difficult than Marka Ragnos. - Do not try to go toe to toe with the Jedi Master by crossing sabers with him, or you will die! protect is also crucial as it will help you take less damage. Heal as often as you can and keep coming back for more. If you are getting crushed by his Force powers you may want to alternate protect with absorb. -Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide

Darthor wrote:3. Kyle > Jerec > Vader The issue here is your equalization of Kyle drawing on the valley's power to sever the force of Jerec as his base self defeating amped Jerec. Here's their fight as explained in the novel:

He needed time to prepare, but more than that, time in which to savor that which destiny had placed before him, much as a gourmet might linger over a rare and carefully prepared dessert. There was leakage, though - leakage that could double or even triple his ability - and whet his appetite for more -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

The Jedi Master directed a thought outward, steered a circle around the cauldron of churning energy, and located a place where a steady stream of pitch-black energy had broken through the protective shell and strobed into space. Jerec chose a single shaft of negative energy, drew on its power, and felt himself expand. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Suddenly, Kyle knew that the number didn't matter - that the light side offered more than enough power for any task he would be called upon to do, and that knowledge was the key. The Jedi closed his eyes, resisted the temptation to look at the light that strobed against his eyelids, and sent a series of commands. He gathered the Force around him, shaped it into a protective cocoon, and sealed Jerec within. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's. -Dark Forces II: Game Manual

The Tattooed man's dark-side energy wasn't quite as powerful as the feeling she'd gotten from Darth Vader months ago. This man wasn't as strong as Vader. But he was almost as evil -Galaxy of Fear

Desolous' rampage led to the slaughter of nearly two thousand Jedi, but eventually he grew overconfident. Desolous confronted a small force of Jedi on Yaga Minor, but these Knights were simply bait to draw the killer into a tactically disadvantageous position. When Desolous attacked, a large Jedi Fleet appeared out of hyperspace, preventing Desolous' retreat. Outnumbered and outmatched, Desolous' army was destroyed and the Sith Lord was finally struck down. The Force Unleashed Databank

Darthor wrote:Probably the funniest of all though is the idea that Desolus is above Urr because it took the entire council to kill him while Urr is just one man, then SO IS HOTH!!! Lord Hoth is also only ONE JEDI BATTLEMASTER!!! So why exactly will this bind Urr but not Hoth??? Don't give me some bullshit about Hoth being the entire Army of Light because then so can Urr be. This connection between Desolus and Urr will LOGICALLY BIND HOTH TOO

Darthor wrote:So either pick that both characters are below Desolus following ur shitty logic, while we can also choose both are above Desolus. Also your explanation on why this will bind Urr is pure cancer. Desolus was born nearly 5 centuries after Odan Urr's death. The idea that "it took the Ancient Council to kill Desolus while Odan Urr is just one member of the council" is probably the most retarded thing I've heard from you in this debate thus far because ODAN URR ISNT ON THE COUNCIL THAT KILLED DESOLUS

Darthor wrote:Yeah... no. I would love to make an entire long post about Kun >>>>>> Vader (I might do so in the next post) but since community consensus seems to agree with me I'll only be addressing your claims. You have 3 main claims for this section 1. The force is constantly growing 1. Aside from the logistic problem highlighted above about is this combatively applicable, the force growing stronger is NOT supported in Star Wars. What is supported is that the Dark Side waxes and wanes. Some examples (credit to Janix):

Vaelias: This of course is the cosmic well of energy but Vader is still more proficient at using that and transmuting it to living force power given that he is more dangerous in a combat context

Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance. Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Darthor wrote: 2. We also have the fact that Vader explicitly doesn't have Kun's power and knowledge as they were lost

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote: "The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere."

Darthor wrote:3. Proof that being the next DLoTS after somebody else, when the force explicitly doesn't grow, and their power is lost, actually means superiority? Furthermore, as noted explicitly, the power of individuals cannot be passed on:

Book of Sith wrote:

Darthor wrote:OOF

So... Virtually every part of your scaling chain is based on unfound premises which gets more and more ridiculous until you reach the connection with Odan Urr which is basically completely false. We also have both the narrative portrayal of Ancients > Brotherhood as well as anti-scaling such as Vader >>>>> Darth Bane >> Lord Hoth that I will expand on in my next post

Darthor wrote:You have offered nothing of REMOTE SUBSTANTIATION here. I will elaborate on the Ambria stuff later but note -Urr scales above Ambria which scales above Nadd -Urr scales above Arca who overpowered Nadd's tomb -Urr has statistical superiority over the Nadd who retained his power -Urr likely defeated Nadd anyways Since you engaged with only one of the above, I'm inclined to believe this is more or less a concession

You "attempt" at a rebuttal here is nothing but further proof you didn't even read the passage. Let's look at the passage in question:

To break down this quote: 1. Plagueis first noted that the Ancient Sith were capable of achieving midichlorian manipulation, and thus they are either more powerful than him, or benefits from the power of the bygone eras.

"The Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost." -Darth Plagueis (Luceno)

He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. - Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader (Luceno)

"The great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others." -Darth Plagueis (Luceno)

Sidious considered it. Would additional Jedi deaths be enough to heal Vader’s wounds? Perhaps, perhaps not. But not yet, in any case. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader (Luceno)

For the first time he could feel the Force of the dark side not as a mere supporting wind, fluffing the sails of a pleasure boat, but as a hurricane eager to loose a storm of destruction on the crumbling Republic and the indolent Jedi Order -Darth Plagueis

Darthor wrote:2. Plagueis then noted the counter-argument that they used sorcery for this, but stated that sorcery is for other stuff, indicating that the reason for their success is ONE OF THE 2 CHOICES HE GAVE AND NOT SORCERY You seem to be using Plagueis refuting of a counter-argument of the Ancient's superiority as explicit proof that they aren't superior lol.

?????????????????????????????????????? NO????? The Ancients could manipulate midichlorians, meaning that they are genuinely more powerful. Plagueis then noted that the ability to survive death was NOT BECAUSE OF UNIQUE TALENTS IN SORCERY BUT because of genuine force superiority. The idea that this excerpt can be used to put Bane above the Ancients is genuinely laughable and not only make me question whether you read the blog but moreso the PASSAGE ITSELF. Or this can be attributed to lack of reading comprehension. Either option is far worse than what I expected from you Vaelias.

Oh and when Plagueis said "the most powerful of the Ancient Sith Lords" he isn't talking about Bane, he's talking about Sadow and Kun.

quote]Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs. -Darth Plagueis

Andeddu's knowledge was his now; over the past few days his brain had processed the raw information he had stolen to the point of full comprehension. He fully understood the ritual of essence transfer; he had learned the techniques that would allow him to move his consciousness from his own failing body into another. He just needed to select an appropriate victim. -Dynasty of Evil

The missions to Lianna, Saleucami, and Abraxin were still fresh in his thoughts. On a philosophical level he understood why the generations of Sith Lords that had preceded him had trained apprentices, to whom they had bequeathed their knowledge of the dark side of the Force in anticipation of an eventual challenge for superiority -Darth Plagueis

In Bane’s age a Sith might have had to guard against an attempt at essence transfer by the deceased—a leap into the consciousness of the Sith who survived—but those times were long past and of no relevance; not since the teachings had been sabotaged, the technique lost. The last Sith possessed of the knowledge had been inexplicably drawn to the light side and killed, taking the secret process with him -Darth Plagueis

For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been pursued by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful at discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

Darthor wrote:Oh and when Plagueis said "the most powerful of the Ancient Sith Lords" he isn't talking about Bane, he's talking about Sadow and Kun.

Darthor wrote:There is no reason for you to doubt the validity of Plagueis here. He noted that the Ancient Sith Lords can extend their life, and he stated that it's either because they are more powerful, or because it's that the force was stronger back then. He is also an expert in the area giving him credibility. Your utterly false interpretation of the quote would be completely apparent to anybody who read the blog or even the passage. Furthermore, Ant also noted in his blog that the force being stronger back then means that they are still superior, and given you EXPLICITLY USED the force being stronger in Hoth's era as proof of his superiority you have no room to question this. Oh and the Nadd vs Bane thing will be examined later.

Ok so to break down your rebuttal here, you're basically questioning the validity of the RoT scaling because apprentices might kill their master before hand. Let's address this: Quotes in support:

DARTHOR: Endless Vigil is a source on the canon RPG “force and destiny”. It bears no explicit implications on the rest of the legends universe.

Darthor wrote:Darth Bane was noted as a mega prodigy, who without any training is capable of willing his father to death. However Darth Zannah's potential blows his out of the water, and so on (7) This means that every padawan has the potential to surpass their master, meaning even if they defeated their master illegitimately they will probably continue to exceed them. We saw this with Gean and Gravid. Either way, the amount of sources and quotes supporting Banite upscale, as well as authorial intent, is enough to reduce opposition of this argument to rubble.

Darthor wrote:4. Bane > Hoth Since you didn't address this I'll be taking this as a concession 

When responding to me Nadd >> Tenebrous argument, Vaelias mentioned the fact that in RoT Bane stated his power matches up to the Ancients. The specific excerpt can be found here:

Why is this helpful for me you might wonder? Well 2 things: 1. For Darth Bane to even CONSIDER the possibility that Nadd is genuinely more powerful than him in of itself suggests parity. So the absolute baseline power of Freedon Nadd is still on the level of RoT Bane

-New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:

Tales of the Jedi wrote:

Bane of the Sith wrote:

Bane hesitated. He knew this was a test. If he apologized now-if he groveled and begged the forgiveness of his Master-Qordis would probably let him stay. But he knew Qordis was wrong. The ancient Sith were dead, but their legacy remained. This was his chance to claim it as his own. - Path of Destruction

Relaunched Fact File #22 wrote:

The Sith had existed in one form or another for thousands of years. Throughout their existence they had waged an endless war against the Jedi:and one another. Time and time again the followers of the dark side had been thwarted by their own rivalries and internal power struggles. A common theme resonated across the long history of the Sith Order. Any great leader would inevitably be overthrown by an alliance of his or her followers. Lacking a strong leader the lesser Sith would quickly turn against one another, further weakening the Order. Of all the Sith Masters, only Bane had understood the inescapable futility of this cycle. And only he had been strong enough to break it. Under his leadership the Sith had been reborn. Now they numbered only two - one Master and one apprentice; one to embody the power of the dark side, the other to crave it. -Dynasty of Evil

"This is also the reason there can be only one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be." -Rule of Two

Once the Sith order teemed with followers. But their rivalries divided them in endless battles for supremacy. Until one dark lord at last united the Sith in the quest to enslave the galaxy-and exterminate the Jedi. Yet it would fall to another, far more powerful than the entire Brotherhood of Darkness, to ultimately realize the full potential of the Sith, and wield the awesome power of the dark side as never before. Since childhood, Dessel has known only the abuse of his hateful father and the dangerous, soul-crushing labor of a cortosis miner. Deep in the tunnels of the desolate planet Apatros, endlessly excavating the rare mineral valued throughout the galaxy, Dessel dreams of the day he can escape-a day he fears may never come. But when a high-stakes card game ends in deadly violence, Dessel suddenly finds himself a wanted man. On the run from vengeful Republic forces, Dessel vanishes into the ranks of the Sith army, and ships out to join the bloody war against the Republic and its Jedi champions. There, Dessel’s brutality, cunning, and exceptional command of the Force swiftly win him renown as a warrior. But in the eyes of his watchful masters, he is destined for a far greater role in the ultimate Sith plan for the galaxy-if he can prove himself truly worthy. - Path of Destruction Publishers Summary on starwars.com

Book of Sith wrote:

He devoured every datacard, historical account, and personal memoir he could find that theorized on the steps needed to create one of the fiendishly complex pyramids. He came across thousands of veiled references to, and hundreds of theoretical speculations on, the art of crafting a Holocron. However, he was unable to find a single source that explicitly set out the spells and rituals required, and their secrets still eluded him. -Rule of Two

Three times before he had attempted to create his own Sith Holocron, and each time the project had ended in failure. He wasn't about to fail this time. He knew that one false move at this stage and all his work, literally years of preparation, would be undone. Yet he also knew that he had no choice but to find a way to deal with the pain and continue his work. -Rule of Two

Three days of constantly drawing upon the Force without food or respite had left him exhausted in body, mind, and spirit. He was particularly vulnerable to the orbalisks in this state. Normally they fed off the dark side energies that naturally flowed through him, but the creation of the Holocron demanded that he channel all his power directly into his work. The parasites were slowly starving, and in response they were flooding his bloodstream with chemicals and hormones intended to drive him into a mindless fury so they could gorge themselves on the dark side as he unleashed his rage. The spasming muscles of his hand and fingers were a direct result of their efforts, and there was nothing Bane could do but wait for the tremor to pass. He had only a few hours left to complete his work, yet he couldn't risk making a mistake and damaging the delicately interwoven crystal fibers of the Holocron's internal structure. -Rule of Two

It was easy enough to guess what had happened. Bane had failed yet again in his attempt to create a Holocron, then in a blind rage lashed out at the world around him with all the power of the Force. If she had been here when it happened, Zannah wondered, could she have stopped him? Would she even have been able to survive? - Bane claimed the orbalisks enhanced his power, granting him unnatural strength and healing abilities. Yet witnessing the aftermath of his failure with the Holocron, Zannah wondered at what cost those abilities came. What use was greater power if it could not be controlled? -Rule of Two

Learning was imparted through the wisdom of a gatekeeper-an advanced simulated personality that mimicked the creator's own identity. The right combination of symbols, applied in conjunction with specific sorceries and spells of the ancient Sith, would allow Bane to capture his appearance, knowledge, and cognitive processes. -Rule of Two

2. Darth Bane believed his power "measured up" to the Ancient Sith, again indicating at least some level of parity

Des had heard plenty of wild tales of Jedi performing extraordinary feats through the mystical power of the Force, but he figured they were legends and myth. Or at least exaggerations. He knew there were powers that transcended the physical world: his own premonitions were evidence of that. But the stories of what the Jedi could do were just too impossible to believe. If the Force was really such a powerful weapon, why was this war taking so long? -Path of Destruction

It had given him an undeniable advantage over the other apprentices. If nothing else, it had shown him the true potential of the dark side. The archives were filled with accounts of incredible feats of power: cities laid waste, worlds brought low, entire star systems swallowed up when a Dark Lord caused the sun to go nova. Some of these tales were likely exaggerations, myths that had grown with each retelling before being set down on parchment. Yet they had their roots in truth, and that truth had inspired Bane to push himself farther and faster than he otherwise would have dared. -Path of Destruction

Yet even if these accounts were true, even if some of his predecessors had had the ability to use the dark side to destroy entire worlds or make a sun go nova, Bane still felt that his power measured up to the described abilities of many of those who had successfully created Holocrons of their own. But how much of your power is wasted on the parasites infesting your body? -Rule of Two

And even after this point, he still considers the possibility of Nadd being superior to him. So we know that EVEN IN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT POSSIBLE Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth

Darthor wrote:Note that for this argument to even matter you would have to either defeat the Nadd >> Tenebrous case or successfully rebut the Banite upscale, neither of which you succeeded.

-He just has more knowledge as he would have all of Bane's knowledge plus the culmination up to his point -He is an expert in his area, where he has spent a shit ton of time "meditating" to how to extend life, while Bane is evidently not the expert in his field.

So the original progressive chain of Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd > Darth Tenebrous >>> Darth Bane >>>> Lord Hoth still stands

and even if you successfully refuted it you would still be left with Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth

??? Uhhhh what? Let's look at the quote I posted in my original post: Aside from what was shown in the original post, we know that yes the wave of power released deep stains on the lands, but theoretically it's just the stain right? Well other sources speak differently: So "dark side energy" infused into the lands was what killed all life on the planet, the same energy was contained by Thon. Furthermore, the same quote also noted that the planet also became a large concentration of Dark Side spirits... yeah it's still an extremely huge DS nexus.

No? That's not what happened at all. The large release of DS energy that killed all life are the DS energy that was infused into the very ground

which then attracted a shit ton of DS spirits who then made the planet a massive soup of DS powers that "threatens an entire sector". Thon then "easily repelled" said spirits and contained all the energy into the lake. Pretty goddamn impressive if you ask me.

?? Firstly, to make a planet a nexus you would have to imbue it with light side energy. If Thon's mere presence is enough to imbue the planet with LS energy that's still pretty goddamn impressive. And yeah I bet thousands of Jedi and Sith on one planet is gonna imbue it with energy, if you wanna compare Thon to that sure.

2. Actually there is. The same power release that killed all life is also the DS energy that soaks into the soil. That + the DS spirits is what Thon "easily repelled" at first and then utterly contain.

With that aside let's connect the Ambria argument to Lord Hoth. Specifically, Zannah used the power that was imbued in the very soil of Ambria, transformed into Dark Side Tendrils to attack Bane:

Darthor wrote:So as we can see from the above quote, Darth Zannah "called upon the powers in the soil and stone", and "transformed it into Dark Side tendrils", a mere touch of which rendered Darth Bane helpless. Notice that he tried every attack he can possible usher and decided that the only way for him to win is to Kill Zannah first. So if a fraction of the power Thon contained made Bane helpless, imagine what can he do against the full extent of Ambria's power. Certainly not "easily repel it". And then imagine how Bane's vast vast inferior in Lord Hoth will do it. Oh and Thon is Odan Urr's inferior... Yeah you get the point

Somehow Zannah had given substance and corporeality to the dark side, transforming it into half a dozen shadowy, serpent-like minions rising up from the ground. -Dynasty of Evil

The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness. -Dynasty of Evil

The tendrils were massing for another assault, moving faster as Zannah fed them with a steady stream of power. Bane unleashed violet lightning from his fingers, but when the bolts struck the sinewy black forms they were absorbed with no apparent effect. They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them. -Dynasty of Evil

Thousands of years ago Ambria had been a world of verdant forests, brimming with life and the power of the Force. But the lush vegetation had been devastated when a Sith sorceress tried-and failed-to bend the entire planet to her will through a powerful ritual. Unable to control the violent energies of the dark side, she was destroyed by her own spell, as was the landscape of the entire planet. For centuries the corruption of the failed ritual influenced all life on Ambria, transforming the once beautiful world into a nightmare of stunted, poisonous vegetation and twisted, mutated beasts. Eventually the dark side energies released by the Sith sorceress were trapped in a great lake near the planet's equator by a Jedi Master named Thon, but the damage was too widespread for the world to ever be completely healed. The Iktotchi knew all this not because she had studied the planet's history, however. Her connection to the Force allowed her to see things. -Dynasty of Evil

The Huntress could see him now: a Sith Lord in black armor; the curved hilt of a lightsaber clipped to his belt as he towered over the healer. They were locked in a battle of wills, the big man dying from some illness she couldn't discern. Even though they were decades removed from the encounter, the Iktotchi sensed the raw power of the dark side emanating from him. It was like nothing she had seen or felt before, both terrifying and exhilarating. -Dynasty of Evil

This is gonna be quick. So as we all know, Odan Urr has far more knowledge than Lord Hoth, something Vaelias practically conceded to. But we also know that power comes from knowledge:

Darthor wrote:One last thing, Vaelias has noted twice in his post that Odan Urr is a book worm. This is correct, but as noted in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, Odan Urr might be a scholar but he is still immensely powerful. He just has "quiet powers":

I think when comparing the cases you should definitely take mine over Vaelias based on a few simple reasons: 1. Narrative. My arguments, and I've repeatedly shown this, is very very ingrained into the very narrative of the stories themself. I have repeatedly shown not only that my quotes support my argumentation, but that the plot in of itself supports it. For this simple reason I should win. I showed you not only dozens of instances in the text when the Ancients are above the Brotherhood but also how that it is supported in the plot. This frankly should outweigh any scaling chain because when Drew wrote the Bane novels he might not be thinking of how in Dark Forces Two the Brotherhood scales above Kyle Katarn who scales above the Ancients, but he CONSCIOUSLY put in Ancient superiority.

2. Layers. For virtually all of my arguments are multi-layered. I gave you 4 layers of responses against the Lord Hoth all the Jedi theory, I gave you 1 scaling chain and one conservative one if you don't buy it, etc. By this reason alone, my case is far more intricate and is based on far more solid ground than Vaelias. Think of Vaelias' case as standing on a thin thread, for example the all Jedi theory. If that line breaks his entire case falls, but mine doesn't.

3. Branches out more. I ranged my argument to the following ways: -Era Comparison -Fight analysis -Feats comparison _Narrative portrayal -intuition -Scaling So we get a far more well-rounded analysis on my side, and said analysis yields my result: Urr wins.

1. Era Comparison: While Vaelias does provide good argumentation and evidence for the NSW era, they simply pale next to the TOTJ era. For the Jedi, TOTJ was noted as "prime of the Jedi", the "Golden Age of the Jedi", and the "Golden Age of the Sith". Meanwhile, the Jedi in NSW are explicitly the "dark age of the republic", and the Brotherhood of Darkness explicitly far far weaker than the Ancient Sith. It's clear that TOTJ is superior to the NSW in every metric possible

2. Lord Hoth: While Vaelias tries to claim that Lord Hoth is this limitless god who is superior to the entire brotherhood by himself, I gave you several layers of responses here that should win the clash: 1. The All Jedi Hoth / All Sith Kaan theory is not supported by the evidence he tries to run 2. There are 2 very explicit caps on Hoth's combative abilities that caps him below the brotherhood 3. Even if this argument works it's likely not applicable in this debate 4. If this argument is true Odan Urr will also benefit from it Notice that this argument is a large proponent of his later scaling chains as well

3. Scaling Chains: Vaelias' chain: Virtually every part of his link is broken, Hoth is not above the entire brotherhood, who are not necessarily above Kyle, who is NOT above Vader quantifiably, who is CERTAINLY NOT ABOVE ODAN URR BY THE WAY HES TRYING TO PROVE (Kun or Desolus)

Not only does my chain hold up, but I offered an additional chain to back it up further. Details: Progressive original chain: Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd > Darth Tenebrous >>> Darth Bane >>>> Lord Hoth still stands Conservative New Chain: Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth Notice that the second chain provides more nuance on how Bane compares to Hoth, and can be applied in the original chain as well. Note also that the original chain is still superior.

4. Other stuff: Ambria still stands as an incredibly impressive feat and scales above Bane and Hoth even after you consider Vaelias' rebuttals, and intuitively Urr is superior to Hoth in every way.

Darthor wrote:5. Stuff I'll likely cover in later posts: Force mechanics, Vader vs Kun, anti-scaling of your case (i.e. how Vader or Kun scales massively above Bane), narrative anti-scaling, etc. etc.

For a little conclusion here, firstly Id like to say well done to Darthor, this was a brilliant post and Im really enjoying this debate, it is by far the most fun one ive had or read tbh and I like the direction it is going, even if it gets heated in debate, it is only that... debate an all for good sport, I don't mean to come across insulting with anything I may say, Darthor is still one of my favourites in the community and I respect the arguments levied against me even if I strongly disagree, but hey, that's what this is for. now for a brief conclusion before I finally close up here.... Lord Hoth is the uniting and binding force that holds the Army of Light together, the tip of its iceberg and the focus point for its power, thus he is THE JEDI in the Valley of the Jedi, and holds more power than Jerec drawing on the leakage, who is far above Vader yet inferior to Kyle Katarn who is more powerful than Marka Ragnos yet inferior to LaTor, who's power is made up by a fraction of Kaan's a Sith who tries to mimic the Jedi Order as a Yoda figure, and who is also the negative of Lord Hoth, The NSW Jedi have more developed combat styles a much larger well of power and are less restrictive in their use of it, Hoth is a vastly more formidable fighter than Odan Urr and is far more powerful. I have addressed every point that has been risen in opposition of this, elaborated and strengthened my position, and debunked the counter claims, while Darthor has failed to address a lot of the substance of the argument and has strung a lot of his arguments and counter arguments together based on misreadings and misunderstandings, demonstrating an ignorance or lack of knowledge of the core binding philosophies and mechanics of The Force, all of my chains hold, while all of Darthor's have been debunked. Darthor himself... Has been debunked

If all 3 of these arguments hold to the end of the debate, the conclusion will be pretty simple. Urr's scalings and feats are wayyy above a sub Sylvar fodder in Hoth, his modus operandi is likely to one-shot Hoth off the bat, and he scales infinitely above Hoth in overall combatively abilities.

THE LORD OF LIGHT

DEFENDING THE DEFENDER

Darthor wrote:I want to start this post off by congratulating Vaelias for his post. It was extremely well-made and very entertaining, and arguably my favorite post of all time. Nonetheless I am not convinced by your argumentation at all. Because while theories and meta-debating are an excellent and refreshing way to view Star Wars, they are unfortunately not applicable for Star Wars debating. What I see when I look at your post are hyper-literal interpretations of quotes that aren’t supposed to be taken literally at all, and said interpretations oftentimes contradict with scaling, authorial intent, basic narrative of a story, and sometimes, common sense itself. There’s quite a few reasons why your theories shouldn’t be applied to IU scaling when it contradicts narrative:

-Star Wars Archives: George Lucas wrote:

”A lot of the concepts of Star Wars are very hard to, really go into in a simple way because they’re far too complex in the end. You know, I put them out there, a very superficial thing, you’d have to really start pulling it apart, and to spend a lot of time to get to the bottom of what’s really going on, especially in terms of thematic issues that are involved in most of this.”
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

”All the seeds have been planted in these movies, in little moments, little lines, in things that, hopefully, when one sees all six together, will resonate back and forth between all the movies, and reveal things.”
- The Empire Strikes Back Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

Bringing midichlorians into it, as a device is something that existed from the beginning but I never really had the time to go into any explanation because every time the rather larger concepts come into play, how does the galaxy work, what is the force altogether, you have to be very sort of, cryptic and deal in almost fortune cookie descriptions of things, so it’s very difficult to get a concept across but I figured this whole movie I could begin to bring out the idea of midichlorians and their job in being sensitives to the force and why some people are more susceptible to the force and than others
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

"In shamanic practice, we seek to work in partnership with the living as well as with the spirits of the ancestors and other allies. By connecting with the energy of the living, we can draw on their strength and vitality to help us in our work." 
- Contemporary Shamanic Teachings

"All living things possess power, and by tapping into this power we can create change in the world. By working with the living, we can harness the collective energy of the community to create healing and transformation."
 - Traditional African Shamanic Wisdom

"Everything in the universe is connected, and energy flows through all things. This energy is the web that connects us all."
- Jamie Sams

"The web of life connects us all, and each strand of the web is important. We are all part of the same tapestry." 
- Ted Andrews

"Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!" And it was the whole of the Jedi Order that rocketed from its huddle, making of its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was, I must say." -Revenge of the Sith

I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were—I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why— but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy. -Shatterpoint

It was a grid work of uncountable fine threads, running here and there to various points, connecting, linking, crossing, intertwining in a complex woven fabric that seemed to bind all into a whole tapestry. And many threads shot away from it into the surrounding space, as if stretching out to touch other worlds. “It’s the lines of energy!” said Luke. “I can see them!” -Heart of the Jedi

It is strong with the Force. The threads of energy which interweave to bind all life together have many crossings there. It is a collection point, its concentrated power form a sort of gateway into the pure essence of all being. -Heart of the Jedi

Master Yoda has travelled to Moraband. Once known as Korriban, this planet was the ancient graveyard of many past Sith Lords. The old Master was more vulnerable than ever before, and a chance to strike at him - and so arguably, at the heart of the Jedi order - was too good to be missed -Relaunched Fact File 101

George is highly involved in all aspects of this series but when we deal directly with the force, uh Christian Taylor and I feel ya know that that word has to come directly from George, a lot of the notes from Mortis come from a really old binder that George has which has his original writings on what the force is and what makes it up -Secrets of Mortis Featurette: Dave Filoni

Lucas said to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us. Gilman: I understand that Lucas, understandably, keeps a pretty tight rein on his properties. How does this impact on what you do? Anderson: He seems to be a fairly flexible with the Tales of the Jedi series, because it's 4,000 to 5,000 years before the movies. Tom Veitch and I have some incredible latitude on what we can do. As long as we remained true to the spirit of the Force and Jedi Knights and other established themes of the Star Wars universe, we could do mostly what we wanted. -Tales of the Jedi Interview, Kevin J Anders

Darthor wrote:a) Because authors, in the vast vast majority of cases, don’t think in the same way that Star Wars debaters do. When Drew wrote the Path of Destruction he likely wasn’t thinking about how his words when describing Lord Hoth are similar to the way Yoda was written.

Darthor wrote:b) Because it ignores context. Several part of you post is true when taken at face value but fails utterly when you read into the larger context and narrative of the story, or sometimes, even the context of the passage
Show me examples of this, because I don't believe any larger concepts preclude any of these points

c) Because when you try to connect multiple different sources together, you often ignore that the sources are mutually contradictory. I.e. when you try to use the Bane novel coupled with the DF novel to scale Hoth and the BoD astronomically above Kyle Katarn and TOTJ, you then ignore the fact that the brotherhood inferiority is LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL ITSELF as I will expand on later.

The supposed mystic proclaimed that only the one who obtained the enchanted gauntlet would rule the Empire. What neither the public, nor SPIN, could know was that Vader’s right glove was fashioned around an indestructible Sith amulet of unimaginable power once belonging to Lord Skere Kaan during the New Sith Wars.
-THE STAR WARS SPY GAME: SPIN DECLASSIFIED

Darthor wrote:So unless Vaelias can prove all the above is false, and his evidence and theories are actually woven into the very narrative of the text, he would then have to engage with the evidence in support of Odan Urr.

Darthor wrote:4. The entire section on how the power of the living force is reliant on the “burning powers of the Jedi”
Why are they respectively irrelevant:

Darthor wrote:1. This has virtually no connection whatsoever with power. Whether they are “barons” “kings” “hereditary lords” or scholars and warriors is completely irrelevant. It is but a title and has no connection to power

Darthor wrote:2. Similarly to 1, virtually all Jedi has 1v1 training as far back as their padawan years. They only go to “classes” during their youngling ages. The training of the Jedi Lords are irrelevant to power unless proven explicitly (something Vaelias failed to do)

Darthor wrote:

The Jedi domains were islands of peace and
justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other
brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their
parents in the way of the Force.
- Essential Guide to Warfare

Darthor wrote:3. The number of Jedi in the army of light is irrelevant to the 1v1 combative capabilities of Hoth unless Vaelias can prove he is the accumulation of their power, something Vaelias not only failed to do but is explicitly not supported in the story (something I will expand on) 4. The importance of the “burning fires of the Jedi” on the living force is also completely irrelevant to the greater scheme of this debate.

There was a malaise in the air, like some infectious disease of mind and spirit. The Force was strong on Ruusan inevitable given the vast numbers of Sith and Jedi there. Yet he sensed it was in turmoil, a maelstrom of confusion and conflict. -Path of Destruction

Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it. -The Last One Standing

Darthor wrote:Endless Vigil is a source on the canon RPG “force and destiny”. It bears no explicit implications on the rest of the legends universe.

Darthor wrote:Lord Hoth in the Bane novel explicitly cites that raging is against the “most basic teachings of our order” which CLEARLY cites that the Jedi Order during the Ruusan campaigns are still against the use of emotions in combat. 

Darthor wrote:This remains irrelevant because:
1. TOTJ isn’t binded by this in any way at all
2. The Jedi in the PT era can still be superior
Once again to drive the point home that the Jedi of the NSW are far weaker than PT, we know firstly that there are alternative quotes for Jedi’s growth in the past thousand years
And of course we have several quotes for PT Jedi supremacy:

Darthor wrote:Speaking of which, you know who else has Jedi supremacy quotes as the “prime of the Jedi” and noted as the Jedi Golden Age? Yes. The TOTJ era. Propagated by Odan-Urr. Oh and they post-dates the quotes mentioned and explicitly mentions the TCW Jedi. So now when we apply quotes we have TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi > PT Jedi > NSW Jedi. Even if you don’t buy TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi Supremacy this NSW Jedi wank should be pretty clearly destroyed

Darthor wrote:Firstly, the quote you referenced explains explicitly that it’s referring to character powers from each encounter, and not overall growth of the order. Secondly, the knowledge of the old masters are explicitly lost across:
-The cron supernova destroying the culmination of the TOTJ master’s knowledge
-The Jedi Purge destroying even more of the Jedi’s knowledge
-Among other destructions and wars such as the SWTOR events
So no… There’s no reason this quote means the Jedi order gets consistently stronger when all their knowledge are getting consistently destroyed.

Darthor wrote:What’s more, the Jedi Masters of old are all “great heroes” who then took up scholarly studies, making them the best of both warriors and scholars:

"I am more of a scholar than a warrior, Memit Nadill. This assignment is quite a burden for me."
"Our warriors have been unsuccessful so far—perhaps a scholar will hold the key we need."
-Tales of the Jedi: 0

Darthor wrote:Furthermore, knowledge is the cornerstone for both the Republic and the Sith, as it instigates power:
And a large reason why the Jedi never had a “dark age” when this knowledge was lost is because of the great Library of Ossus, another TOTJ institution:
And it is thus that the Library of Ossus created the “golden age of the Jedi” during the TOTJ era. But you know when was it stated that the Jedi and the republic suffered a dark age? The NSW era:
The NSW being the “dark age of the Jedi and the Republic” is also a recurring theme as noted in the Jedi vs Sith sourcebook, the new essential atlas, and multiple other sources, as the last century of the NSW, including the Odion era and the Daiman, as well as… you guessed it… The Hoth era.

"The final hundred years of the Draggulch period are sometimes called the Republic's "dark age." The Republic could no longer afford to maintain its communications network, dropping all settlements outside the Core off the grid and forcing them to rely on hyperspace courier ships. At the same time, an outbreak of the Candorian plague killed off as much as two-thirds of the citizens of some major population centers."
-New Essential Chronology

There is little need, for example, to describe our long years of war with the newly risen Sith Lords on the Outer Rim. The Grumani sector is one such nest of evil, but today’s map of the galaxy shows many disparate areas under Sith control, like cancerous lesions. Alongside the Republic Navy, the Jedi Order sought to stem the tide by making stands on world after world, Republic-affiliated or not.

But such efforts fell short, partially due to another factor: plague. If the Sith threat is the fire, the Candorian Plague proved a deadly and effective accelerant. Even the noblest defenders cannot stand long when their own bodies fail them. Systems under quarantine could not be defended — and Sith Lords more interested in conquest than the well-beings of their own warriors took advantage. World after world fell to the Sith conquerors.
-Knight Errant Gazatter

Darthor wrote:Actually the authorial intent in the Rule of two is that Qordis and Kaan are conjured up by his subconscious. Which makes sense because that quote is so obviously not accurate and Qordis was killed BEFORE the thought bomb:

Master Yoda encountered the disembodied spirit of Darth Bane in his huge mausoleum. Though dangerous, only fear could grant it power. Yoda was unafraid, calmly dismissing the illusion -Relaunched Fact File #90

Yoda Faced Bane's spirit but managed to see through the Illusion of its existence to travel deeper within the temple -Relaunched Fact File #90

Darth Bane: Then what stands before you! Yoda: An illusion, real you are not Darth Bane: You do not fear me Yoda: No, exist, you do not anymore -Sacrifice Script

The spirits of minor Sith Lords haunted Moraband, seeking to feed on the fear of hapless visitors to increase their own power -Relaunched Fact File #90

Relaunched Fact File #102 wrote:

"You brought that upon me!" He expected his teacher Qordis to appear again, laughing at him. But instead of the vengeful dark avatar, he saw the shadowy spirit of Sith Lord Kaan, the fallen leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness who had annihilated the Sith and the Jedi on Ruusan. -Bane of the Sith

Kaan haunted Bane in the form of a silent spirit hovering in the periphery of his sight. On Dxun, Kaan's silent image led Darth Bane through the jungles to the tomb of Freedon Nadd. -The Complete Encyclopedia

Darthor wrote:So to summarize, while for the NSW Jedi’s favor we have a bunch of hyper-literal theories that are debunked, the TOTJ were the Jedi in their prime. The epic heroes of the past mixed with the great scholars creating an “golden age of the Jedi”, while the NSW happened in the age of the Dark Age of the Republic and the Jedi Order. It’s made abundantly clear that the arguments in favor of TOTJ masters superiority is far far far more explicit compared to vice versa

Darthor wrote:Couple of things here: 1. Kaan didn’t escape the thought bomb according to the most relevant sources (Bane Novel) 2. Kaan isn’t the component of the Brotherhood as I will explain later 3. The Sith are still very present in the thought bomb

Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers. "What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?" "Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off." Kaan had broken the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds. -Path of Destruction

Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world. In many ways the process was similar to the one used to fashion a thought bomb from the Force, though this was less powerful than the ritual he had sent as a peace offering to Kaan-and far less dangerous -Path of Destruction

Drawing closer he could make out a single figure standing in the center of the circle: Lord Kaan. He hadn't seen him at first; the middle of the ring was darker than the rest of the cave. There seemed to be a black cloud hovering above him, tendrils of inky darkness extending down to wrap and twist around him in a sinister embrace. -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:1. Novice =/= less powerful. Novice refers to explicitly “a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation”. (google translate). Inexperienced refers to “having little knowledge or experience of a particular thing.” So if we take this interpretation in as meaning power then KFV is a novice compared to Odan Urr too.

Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. For LaTor was strong, very strong, and Kyle was impressed by the power resident in the dark side. The power and the relative ease of access... a temptation for anyone with the necessary talent. Finally, their robes soaked with sweat and their hearts beating like trip hammers, the Brotherhood was done. The thought bomb was complete. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Darthor wrote:2. Nothing in the quote you posted instigates that he has to go to the Dark Side to surpass LaTor

Darthor wrote:3. This quote in of itself fundamentally contradicts your own argument. If the DS powers that have a “large resident” is enough to kill Kyle Katarn if not for the Jedi presence, that means that the DS forces are still very very relevant in the valley. So either you have to accept that:

Time hung suspended, the air crackled with barely suppressed energy, and three of the Jedi died, their minds overcome by the violence of the process. Others went insane, rose with weapons drawn, and were executed by the master- at-arms. Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Darthor wrote:The Sith Brotherhood are noted as “weak”, “simpering lords”, “an abomination”, “disgusting”, “sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants”, who are “not deserving of the Ancient’s power and wisdom” and “the true potency of the Dark Side” (1)

"Of course," Bane lied. "He is acting for the good of us all." As he rose to his feet he thought, Kaan's acting like one of the Jedi. Worrying about the greater good. Seeking to bring harmony and cooperation to our order. The dark side withers and dies under those conditions! -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:They are known as “simpering Sith Lords”: “Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood.” Source: Darth Bane PoD

Darthor wrote:Not worthy of the Ancients power and knowledge: “The Brotherhood of Darkness stood for everything that was wrong with the modern Sith. They had fallen from the true path. Their failure was the reason the spirits of the Dark Lords had vanished. None of Korriban—not Master, not apprentice—had been worthy of their wisdom; none worthy of their power. They had simply faded away, scattered like a handful of dust cast across the desert sand. Bane could see the truth so clearly now. Yet Qordis and the others were forever blind.” Source: Darth Bane PoD

"The spirits of powerful Sith Masters are said to linger in their tombs," Bane insisted, stubbornly refusing to be cowed. "They appear only to those who are worthy. They would not have revealed themselves to the Jedi." -Path of Destruction

Path of Destruction wrote:Kaan had tried to solve the problem by making everyone equal in the Brotherhood. But his solution was flawed. It showed no understanding of the real problem. No understanding of the true nature of the dark side. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side.

Path of Destruction wrote:"Of course," Bane lied. "He is acting for the good of us all." As he rose to his feet he thought, Kaan's acting like one of the Jedi. Worrying about the greater good. Seeking to bring harmony and cooperation to our order. The dark side withers and dies under those conditions! -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:The Ancients who has the “dark side’s true potential” were beyond the reach of every master of the academy: “The mysteries of the dark side’s true potential were beyond his reach — and likely beyond the reach of every Master at the Academy.” Source: Darth Bane PoD

Darthor wrote:The Sith masters didn’t know everything “You once told me the Masters didn’t know everything,” Bane continued. “You meant the Jedi Masters at the time, but I’m starting to believe it applies to the Sith as well Source：Darth Bane PoD

Bane could see the truth so clearly now. Yet Qordis and the others were forever blind. They followed Kaan as if he had bound them up with some secret spell. - Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:Explicitly stated as weak: “The Brotherhood had changed all that. There were now a hundred of more Dark Lords following Kaan, but most were weak and inferior.” Source: Darth Bane PoD

Darthor wrote:You know what at this point let me just spam the quotes: ”I‘m the one who read the ancient texts, not you! You’re stuck learning from Masters who’ve forgotten their past

Darthor wrote:Kaan had cast aside the true power of the individual and replaced it with the false glory of self-sacrifice in the name of a worthy cause.

Darthor wrote:The academy was an abomination, a testament to how far the Sith had fallen from the true ideals of the dark side.

Darthor wrote:Bane didn’t respond, but his lip instinctively curled up in disgust as he remembered his instruction at the Academy. Qordis and the others had passed the apprentices around class to class as if they were children in school instead of heirs to the legacy of the Sith.

Darthor wrote:Kaan had prevented the entire Sith order, transforming it into a sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants. …There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood,” he went on. “Too many who are weak in the dark side.

We have too many Dark Lords, even the strongest wine cannot be felt in an ocean of weak water, for the dark side to be strong again it should be contained in One Vessel, One Lord. -Jedi vs Sith

Darthor wrote:… Your wisdom has destroyed our order,” Bane explained casually, watching as Qordis struggled helplessly above him. “You have polluted the minds of your followers; you and Kaan have led them down the path of ruin.” Source: Darth Bane PoD 

Darthor wrote:Darth Theory: The Sith Lords of the time are explicitly “not deserving of the Darth title” due to “the lack of power” and “cowardice”. The Darth title explicitly states it is a title of power. (2)

Darthor wrote:Equality Theory: Lord Kaan created the Brotherhood as equals which leads to the impossibility for any of them being strong (3)

Darthor wrote:The Ancient Powers: Unlike the weak Brotherhood, the Ancients are noted repeatedly as “powerful”, the “great lords of the past”, and in the very sentence where he calls Freedon Nadd a “great Sith Master” he also calls Qordis a “so called Sith Lord”. Furthermore, Darth Revan’s holocron was stated to have more knowledge than the entire Brotherhood archive, made of Ancient knowledge, which Bane and Githany both stated to be above the teachings of the actual Sith in the Brotherhood. Furthermore Freedon Nadd’s holocron will take Bane “months, maybe years” to study when Bane already is far far superior to Lord Kaan massively. (4)

Darthor wrote:To top this section off, I want to further note that Ancient Sith superiority over the brotherhood is VERY INGRAINED IN THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL as the plot of the entire first part of the book is literally Bane figuring out that the brotherhood are all wrong and went to the gather the knowledge of the superior Ancient Sith instead.

Kaan had been many things- ambitious, charismatic, stubborn, and in the end a fool-but he had never been weak -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:You might argue, oh but that’s just the big named Ancients. Well yes, but the average Sith at the time of the great hyperspace war is the culmination of 1000 years of growth from cross-breeding between the Exiles and the Sith with the sole purpose of creating more powerful offspring:

Preface:

I. ERA COMPARISONS:

A) General Jedi Supremacy:

Spoiler:

Vaelias said:
It's not irrelevant when that power is the power the Jedi use, and that's the power in the thought bomb, and thats the power Lord Hoth is the center of

Vaelias said:
Sure if ya take it at face value, but we have discussed these concepts right, and you have these little 'islands' of light side power, an there's a Jedi Lord for each one raised as the King from a line of force users, would you disagree that these Jedi Lords are the heart of their island of power that they created ? would you disagree that when these mini islands come together they form one giant island of power? this is stuff we can logically deduce from simply knowing the concepts that exist in the universe an then seeing if and where people fit into the concepts, I cant think of a better example of a web of light side power than these little islands of hope and peace, tell me Darthor, if you look past the blanket statement, how do you think that is working if not through Force Threads, are they Yuuzhan Vong devoid of the force or something???

Vaelias said:
Why would they not be trained one on one and groomed ? they are hereditary barons and kings, and ya know how you posted this quote
Why would it be any different for the 1000 years of Jedi barons and kings and their breeding a hereditary Jedi lineage ?

Vaelias said:
Burning fires of the Jedi on the living force? I think you are misunderstanding, I presented the evidence in my opener you'd need to debunk that before you declare I failed to prove it, but the point there is, the Jedi are fed by the Jedi presence which is very much relevant to the debate seeing as I am talking about power mechanics here
This is all relevant to the debate because my argument is that Hoth's power is the Jedi Fire that's in the Valley of the Jedi, and he is keeper of the power, now I don't think Hoth can give the combative output of the entire Army of Light by himself, that is not what I claimed at all, but he holds all that power, again how exactly is this 'completely irrelevant' to the debate?

Vaelias said:
FFG operates under the same rules as something like Relaunched Fact File, they have both EU and new canon content, whats legends is legends whats canon is canon, but whatever that was just a cool tidbit on the philosophy I thought was nice.
Yeah I know the Jedi are all going against the code the last war has forced them to change, I didn't say the dark side ways have seeped into the Code lol, rather its seeping into them individually, just a side effect of all these conflicts and a side effect which the Jedi actually can make use of, we see the same thing in the PT, the dark side growing inside them, again this was all outlined clearly in the opener, seems you misunderstood

Vaelias said:
Yeah I never claimed the PT wasn't better, but I think its the growing dark side in the Jedi which ultimately makes up the biggest combat difference, and these powerhouses of the New Sith Wars seem have the most dark side corruption of any Order of Jedi in history, so while i'm not claiming they are with the PT, I think its a nod to just how strong these guys will be, funny also how you use that quote about a millennia of combat evolution but seem to be against the Idea that it happened during the NSW, despite the conditions for growth being far higher, do tell me, why would it be any different for NSW?

Vaelias Said:
Postdates what quotes mentioned ? the G-Canon ones? well, that doesn't matter since they are G-Canon and would in fact simply retcon the TCW Jedi mention in the TOTJ/KOTOR quote. And I don't think the Jedi in NSW would be considered prime anyway, I wouldn't expect a quote like that for them, the Jedi have lost a lot of their control of the galaxy, Sith occupy half of it youve got crime and all sorta at an all time high, Jedi being corrupted by the Dark Side, it is literally the Dark Ages, I would not expect a prime golden age quote or anything of that sort for these Darkened mislead Jedi of the NSW, its a damaged order that's fallen apart, are most certainly not the monks following the will of the force they are meant to be, like in the Prequels and TOTJ, and so I think to take those quotes as a blanket statement about Force power isn't the right way to go about reading those quotes, there's too many factors in "Prime of the Jedi" to even consider using those quotes for specifically force power reasons when unity, influence, political power, harmony with the force and factors that contributed to the decline of the Jedi Order come into play, such as complacency, corruption, and the influence of the dark side. which had a negative impact on the effectiveness of the order, despite their continued strength in the Force. not to mention issues pertaining specifically to the NSW Jedi such as the recruitment of barely force sensitives and children into their armed forces, of course these guys arent the prime of the Jedi, but that doesn't preclude the NSW Jedi having more force power or better combatants, there is just too much there for those quotes to 'destroy the NSW wank' as for that one quote about them being at the summit of their power, I don't see why that would bind any future eras, it talks about the Jedi's progression an their story in general an says now its at the summit of its power, an that's why they have so much self confidence, they are better than ever I don't deny that

B): Ancients vs Brotherhood:

Vaelias said:
Murhhh the good old days are gone, all these quotes are just Bane fanboying over the ancients, he thinks everyone in the Brotherhood are sorry excuses for Sith because they operate in a way which is not ideal for the Dark Side to function, too many lords all this equality, he thinks they are all Idiots blindly following Kaan and thus not worthy of the ancients legacy or teachings, they threw them out, rejected them and have a completely opposing philosophy after all.
Bane's opinion based on teachings he received from Revan's Holocron, bunch of lost rituals and philosophy that Bane is has never seen before an he is like waaaa, has no baring on force power,
Again Bane's opinion, the new sith fell from the true path blah blah, which yeah isn't really incorrect here, but idk why the ancients WOULD favour the New Sith having vastly changed their philosophy/approach to things, so no no one is worthy of their power, just a side note here, X not being worthy of Ys power does not necessitate Y's power being greater anyway, X could be more powerful, but not be worthy of Y's power because he follows a different philosophy than Y does, and not worthy of that Legacy, take for example Yoda, he is more powerful than all the Ancient Sith (you've seen all the quotes not gonna post em here) but would still not be considered worthy of the Sith Legacy, he's a fucking Jedi with none of the same beliefs etc. same goes for Kaan, he was trying to turn the Sith into the Jedi Order, trying to hold it all together like Yoda, a flawed philosophy for the dark side, because it is selfish, the spirits do not agree with it, Bane does not agree with it. It was a flawed solution to the Sith paradox
Yeah Bane is opposed to the current order, thinks they are all dumb, blind etc
Yep BoD dumb lol, does not conflict with what I am claiming …
There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood,” he went on. “Too many who are weak in the dark side. Yep terrible conditions for power to flow properly, the power is diluted with many Sith

C) New Ancient Sith Arguments:

II. THE EMBODIMENT OF FAILURES

A) Lord Hoth's Limitations:

Spoiler:

Vaelias said:
Well he didn't strictly fail to defeat an ambush team, he just didn't reach Pernicar in time, Pernicar "vanished beneath the sea of enemies" and Hoth went darting towards him in an unstoppable rage, but it was too late, he already vanished into the sea of enemies, I wouldn't exactly say It puts a HARD CAP on Hoth's power, since the Jedi are all pretty much fighting with what little they have left at this point weary weathered and worn from none stop battle, so he is not actually in any fit physical condition to be operating at his absolute peak for this to put a cap on his power, not to mention the conditions of the Force at the time, most of the Jedi being dead, Hoth is definitely not operating at his absolute best here, in fact the Jedi are described as half dead remains of Jedi at this point lol they have fought seven battles and are pretty much on deaths door lol

Vaelias wrote:
Does this sound like Hoth at his very best? and he is still unstoppable akin to the maw, they only went and gave him a comparison to the strongest thing in the galaxy, the only thing that can hold Celestial power, were as Odan says himself he is but a scholar, Odan Urr is not at all somebody who would get a comparison like that, Its like putting Einstein in the ring with Mike Tyson, something tells me Einstein isn't going to win that one.

Vaelias wrote:
As I mentioned above, Hoth is a character who walks a very fine line between light and dark, his rage isn't something that needs to be triggered, his base state is on the thin line to begin with, obvs when he wants to save his mate his efforts will no doubt he greater than his regular efforts, but I think if he is 1v1ing Odan Urr and his life etc is in danger then he won't just be holding back, besides the Hoth I am arguing for isn't a Hoth that will be holding back.

Vaelias wrote:
I don't believe I said it was split into 3, there a many different baronies that united into the Army idk where you got 3 from, and if you kept reading the same page It literally says there is about 12 Jedi with Hoth, so Id say your calculations are incorrect there, not to mention derived from something I didnt even say.

Vaelias wrote:
Yeah there's a sea of enemies they are outnumbered they r all on deaths door they need some reinforcements, I don't think any of this actually has anything to do with my claim From this we can gauge the true extent of Lord Hoth’s power, which is that while rage amped blood lusted and with the help of ⅓ of the army of light he will still definitely lose to an ambush. This is not the exent of his power, because 1) power doesn't just manifest fully in combat, 2) Hoth has just fought 7 battles and is next to deaths door. And yeah him losing to an ambush isn't some sort of crazy Anti-Feat, I think somebody like Dooku or Yoda would almost certainly die here as well, especially under these conditions, we see Dooku lose to 30 pirates, and that's in the episode as a message to convey this idea, ,Jedi aren't DBZ characters, and numbers is the most effective thing against a Jedi, which we clearly see in AOTC, Hoth cant block in 100 places at once no matter how strong he is, a sea of enemies surrounding him, anybody would die without reinforcements here, its crazy that he is even alive here lol.

Vaelias wrote
Oh really
the Dark Army was woefully small. Less than two thousand Jedi compared to ten times that number that had followed Kaan into the first few battles. Still, small though they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead, having been overpowered by Hoth and the Army of Light. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

B) All the Jedi Rey Hoth

Vaelias wrote:
Ok before we start here on this part, Hoth being the embodiment of the Army of Light's power, much like how we see it with Yoda etc, does not mean that power is all combatively applicable, I said Hoth holds the power of the Army of Light but I did not claim that him alone has the combative potency of the entire Army, and he can solo the Sith, lol as in Hoth isn't gonna unleash that power in a massive death wave that kills everything, that's not how the force functions you can hold power but it doesn't manifest through combat like DBZ lol, Anakin is the embodiment of the Force but he cant one shot the force or anything like that lol, so I can see you are misunderstanding the power functions from the get go here

Vaelias wrote:
And as I showed you in my opener the concept I discussed is a very real concept in Shamanism the core system in which the Force In Star Wars is based.

Vaelias wrote:
to make it more clear you have Hoth's individual spirit and all the spirits of the Jedi, imagine a tapastry with Hoth in the centre, where all the paths cross, so when I say Hoth's spirit is all the Jedi fire it's that which is dying off, It's not Hoth's individual spirit that is dying in case you misunderstood that, but that should be a given anyways. Hoth says every Jedi death is a pain in his chest, so it doesn't seem like its about just built up stress, he isn't just getting more and more depressed when he feels Jedi die through the Force, he is actually FEELING it, in his chest, which is where the spirits vital gate is, while I don't doubt there is a mental toll on Hoth during the war, that's not the only factor here, something is missing from him with each death, hence why he is dying with every Jedi not just getting more sad, I don't know how you could come to that conclusion tbh. " a notion that isn’t supported ANYWHERE in the story" -Darthor

Vaelias wrote:
Yeah but the Lakers spirits aren't actually a real thing and they aren't made up of Jedi Fire that can be killed off, their emotions aren't the energies they wield, even if you wanna incorrectly take it in a figurative sense it doesn't do anything for you because being low in spirit in a figurative sense, in Star Wars where your emotions translate to power would still just translate in Force rules to being low in spirit literally.

Vaelias wrote:
Sure its not exactly the same wording but it doesnt mean it's not speaking to the samce concept besides, the main point is, you are still getting the depiction of these two be all end of figures of each side we get THE LORD OF DARKNESS And THE DEFENDER OF LIGHT, coming face to face, and its that that is the focus here, they are the two main figures, even if Defender of the Light is different from Avatar of Light, Look at "Lord of Darkness" It still very much gives the same implication as Avatar, and we know Hoth is the Light Side Kaan basically, so I think when you add that to the idea that these are both THE two guys representative of both sides, Defender of the Light here is meant to be just a flip side of Lord of Darkness. He defends it because he is THE Master of it, its Avatar, while its not worded exactly the same that doesn't mean it doesn't mean the same thing

In Tales of the Jedi Companion, Chamma and his fellow Jedi knight task force was noted to be the "the guardians of light" (link). Chamma would then experience centuries of growth until he becomes the Jedi Master and is thus bound below Odan per the Yoda quote. Under Vaelias logic, Odan will scale significantly above an avatar of light.

Vaelias wrote:
its not like defender and avatar are mutually exclusive add that to how the force connections work, and there's no doubt that ROTS and DFJK are going off the same concept here. Furthermore you get comments like this

"You're right, old friend," he said. The words were smooth and easy; he spoke as if a great weight had been lifted from him. He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side. And suddenly, inexplicably, Kopecz was reassured -Path of Destruction

Vaelias wrote:

What? First off you just swapped the word connection in the quote to importance to line up with your argument, secondly how is there literally a direct link to Yoda if its just about him being important, how does the entire arc in Season 6 happen, you should be able to explain what is happening there under that logic if that was the case.

But they are connected. Profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. -Voices Script

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
It's not irrelevant when that power is the power the Jedi use, and that's the power in the thought bomb, and thats the power Lord Hoth is the center of
[...]
I did not claim they were not present, there are far fewer of them than Jedi, and their power largely flowed from Kaan, and that power was not in the thought bomb, not only were their weak souls empowered by Kaan but their souls in general were largely drained by Kaan during the creation of the Thought Bomb, Kaan is the mind for the Brotherhood, much like Kaan pulls the collective Brotherhood out of Bane's Ritual he drains their souls into himself, a single vessel, to channel the Thought Bomb and activate it, so the Souls of the Sith are the tiniest fraction of themselves they can be.

Vaelias wrote:
I think Odan could possibly fit the framework in some ways, that is an Idea I have been toying with but Im still not sure about that one, where as Urr does have a connection to all the Jedi at the calling, it seems to be less a case of Force Bonds like Yoda and Hoth and more a case of just well... Telepathy, in fact some of the Jedi don't even know who Odan Urr is so I definitely would not say Urr has any sort of strong bond with all the guys there he is just a good telepath, even communicating with Cay who doesn't even know who he is and vice versa, he is just good at speaking through the force to those around him, thus he is the spokesman for the Jedi
Needless to say simple Telepathy does not come with or require the connections or bonds you draw power from, its purely to do with the mind and not the heart and spirit, you do not need a force bond to speak to somebody through telepathy, furthermore some of the Jedi don't even know who Urr is, now idk about you but I can't imagine that being the case for Yoda or for Hoth, somebody who has the entire Army screaming his name in glory, I see Odan Urr being your Cassius Vecellinus and your Hoth being your Julius Caeser, your Consul of Rome in the real early days who technically runs the country but no one gives a shit about, and your Dictator for Life the beloved war hero savior who transformed the country an saved the day before being killed, from a greater more modern version of Rome, that is how I see Odan Urr and Hoth, Odan being the Yoda of his era is in reference to their stature in the Order in terms of respect, Odan and Vodo are the most respected Jedi of their era just as Yoda and Mace are for theirs, and that's largely because of his spokesmanship and politics no doubt, and sure some respect can be garnered through their strength in the force, but that does nothing for you really, Odan is the most respected, an sure in part his strength in the force has a role in that of course, but that means nothing by itself when there is a clear disconnect between the respect and the strength in the force, it is but a factor at play, but the quote is definitely not a reference to how Odan is the beating heart of the Jedi like Yoda

C): All the Sith Palpatine Kaan

Vaelias wrote:
Kaan feeds them, rejuvenates them, fills their hollow spirits with his power of the force, so it doesn't actually matter how you read it, Kaan is still the source of their power he is still feeding them.

Vaelias wrote:
furthermore the hollow spirits mean they are just not full of force, we see what hallow means in this context in the same novel

Vaelias wrote:
So he uses subtle manipulations of their emotions to keep their loyalty strong, but why does this preclude him feeding them power, of course he would have a connection to their spirits, to say he doesn't is to say they don't have force bonds, which is obviously ridiculous. that's all a force bond is in the end, a connection of spirit. furthermore I don't think this looks very much like 'subtle manipulations of their emotions'

Vaelias wrote:
Yeah I know that lol, I didn't claim it was Kaan at all but the quote specifies it is THEIR power Jerec wants, and its also their power that they largely rely on Kaan for, that's why I put it in there. already went over the spirit thing above so won't talk about it again. all this still holds so far

III. SCALING CHAINS

A): Kyle vs Brotherhood:

Vaelias wrote:
So your counter to this argument is that Kyle is actually more powerful but just less masterful?, Isn't your basis for Odan being stronger specifically about knowledge, Kyle is a novice force user these guys are not, does the whole knowledge = power thing go out the window here? just like the millennia of combat progression? But anyways lets take a look at the quote again...

Vaelias wrote:
Are you seriously going to claim that LaTor and the other Lords are not way above Kyle, if you ask me the quote makes it pretty obvious the Dark One's are all far stronger than Kyle here, Kyle is a novice force user compared to the BoD, Id say novice here is all encompassing for the entirety of Kyle's skill set which includes his Force power, given the very next line says Kyle is not as strong as them, that they are very strong in comparison, and Kyle is like 'wow they are so powerful' they are just all round superior to Kyle and I don't think that's even debatable.

B) Marka Ragnos:

Vaelias wrote:
So Kyle having grown into his power, already a Knight finished his trials etc, is far stronger than Jaden Korr, who is a student new to the order, who is stronger than Marka Ragnos

Vaelias wrote:
Kyle is a much harder threat for a more powerful character than Ragnos is
After killing Tavion, Kyle tries to stop you. Kyle is much more difficult than Marka Ragnos. - Do not try to go toe to toe with the Jedi Master by crossing sabers with him, or you will die! protect is also crucial as it will help you take less damage. Heal as often as you can and keep coming back for more. If you are getting crushed by his Force powers you may want to alternate protect with absorb. -Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide
You are left with Kyle Katarn >> Jaden Korr > Marka Ragnos > Sadow, Ludo, Nadd, Odan Urr all those TOTJ guys. Add that to what we already established and we have Kaan >>>>>> LaTor >>>> Kyle >> Jaden > Ragnos > pretty much all of TOTJ
So no the Ancients are not far more powerful than Kyle Katarn and these direct comparisons are more accurate than anything you can muster up from feat scaling like you tried to do! Clearly something is wrong there if you scaling yields Ancients above Kyle but when the strongest Ancient literally comes back he is below Kyles new student, then something clearly doesn’t add up with the scaling.  So all this still holds.

C) Kyle vs Desolus vs Odan

Vaelias wrote:
That is no issue at all, here is another case of your misunderstanding of the power mechanics at play, your presence in the valley amps you, right, so take both Jerec and Kyle and throw em in the Valley their base levels are amped to the same degree from their surroundings, then on top of that Jerec is drawing on the leakage of the Thought Bomb aka the power of all the spirits trapped in there, that is where all the power is coming from. Kyle is not drawing on that energy, in fact the very scan you provided mentions that Kyle need not use that power for the Light Side of the Force will give him all he needs So you have Jerec's base level with Vader's and you have Kyle's so far above that, that when their base levels are both amped, Kyle is close to Jerec even with the power of the spirits on top of the amped base level,

Vaelias wrote:
What about the other quote I posted ? Well it straight up says Jerec isnt as powerful as Vader, the use of the word quite there emphasises Jerec's proximity to Vader, so yeah that is what rivaling means, and it is power in the Dark Side
The Tattooed man's dark-side energy wasn't quite as powerful as the feeling she'd gotten from Darth Vader months ago. This man wasn't as strong as Vader. But he was almost as evil -Galaxy of Fear

And on top of that the stuff I mentioned about Jerec also being deserving of Vader's role as The Emperor's apprentice, seems you missed that, so no, you cannot sweep these aside on the basis that it "doesn't necessarily mean he is close in any meaningful capacity" because in this case it absolutely could not be more clear that it is indeed, in a meaningful capacity. This also still holds.

Vaelias wrote:
Because Hoth lives after the Council that killed Desolous, and remember the whole constantly growing well of energy I talked about, It logically follows that the Jedi of Hoth's time would be stronger than in Desolous' time, the Jedi in this time are only just rebuilding after the events of TOR, and Hoth's Order is a good two-thousand odd years of growth above them, so if Hoth is embodying the collective power of that order why would him being one guy cap him below the ancient council?, the reason I say it caps Urr is because Urr does not embody the ancient order, he is only one guy, and sure he he might be stronger than any one Jedi of The Desolous era council, but there is 0 reason for me to think he would be above the collective council that proceeds him by 1000 odd years, given the power mechanics it is my default assumption that Odan is below the future combined council.

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
Oh yeah Desolus' fight vs the Jedi Council was stated to be a fight between armies.. Uhhh, ok, a Jedi fleet cornered him and prevented his retreat, so what? what here says that it didn't take the whole council to kill him, this quote does not preclude my claim in any sense. in fact the wording fits perfectly, as it should ofc, the army was destroyed and Desolous finally struck down,are you trying to claim that it was the fleet that killed Desolous? did it take all 12 councillors in their star cruisers to drop enough bombs on him to kill him or something? why couldnt some droids do that, "It took 12 droids to kill me boy" that isn't what 'struck down' implies, nor is it consistent with what we literally get told happens lol

D) Darth Vader vs Exar Kun

Vaelias wrote:
Ok great this is exactly the argument I hoped you would make, and much like Janix (who seems to have helped out here) in the debate w AP, you seem to have made the same misunderstanding of the core of the argument which again comes down to a lack of understanding of the power mechanics at play. Now your argument is that the force getting increasingly stronger over time is NOT supported because the Dark Side waxes and wanes over time. But why are the two mutually exclusive? Not one of those quotes you posted precludes my claim, I showed you evidence for the force growing stronger over time, and in response you showed me evidence for the force being timeless and waxing and waning, but you failed once again to actually address or pick apart the evidence I posted or engage with the substance of the argument, do you think what you posted in response here is somehow a retcon to the evidence I laid out, that you can just write off all of that evidence I posted on account of the sources you posted ?


Well you will find that none of that actually addresses anything I have talked about, firstly If I am wrong then you should be able to give me explanations for what the quotes I shared are really about, and how all that functions without this ever expanding well of energy, for example how do you propose Luke or Rey or Yoda are drawing on all the Jedi? How does all the stuff I mentioned work if its not how I proposed, you failed to do this so this all still stands. I never refuted that the force is timeless or that it doesn't wax and wane, I briefly explained this above but Ill go over it so its here with some of the basic force mechanics if I must, As I talked about in my reasoning which you seemed to ignore is that the well of energy that is building up is made up of those who pass into the force, i.e go to the Netherworld i.e The Light Side or to Chaos, The Dark Side. so if the well is made up of the collective energy of ones who die, then that does not wax and wane does it ? that is ever increasing. What waxes and wanes is not the power of the dark side, it is the imbalance in the Living Force, the Dark Side is not inherently a part of the Living Force, it is part of the Cosmic Force, and seeps into the Living Force when it is drawn upon, everybody is a part of the Living Force think of everyone like a light in the tapestry that we talked about, so when they draw on the dark side, it corrupts them, like cancer, and their Living Force turns into what is essentially Dying Force, however bright the light was of the guy that got corrupted and/or the amount of people who are corrupted determines the severity of the imbalance in the Living Force, that is what waxes and wanes, not the well of power they use to create the imbalance.

With the Sith the Dark Lord embodies the power of Chaos, so Vader wields Kun's energies as noted in TOTJ itself in my post which you failed to address, and if you remember what I specified in post

Vaelias wrote:
So we have proven Vader is more powerful, TOTJ itself setting up Kun's power passing down to Vader, so Vader has all this power, and obviously it is not in this power in which he is rivalled by Jerec, as Jerec is does not posses the mantle of Dark Lord, nor is he the Chosen One, which can only mean that Jerec's rivalling of Vader is in regards to the part of Vader that is sub TPM Kenobi, which is Vader's Living Force connection, the power that was hampered when he was cut up. and the power that is still superior to Exar Kun's, in large part due to Vader being more deadly in a combative context then Kun, despite that being the very thing that is emphasised to make Vader suck and the very thing that Kun gets all his hype for


So there’s a well of power, that’s growing overtime so linearly the characters in that well of power are going to have access to more power as time goes on first we have Kun then we have Kaan and then we have Vader, Vader has the biggest well of power Kun has the smallest, smallest well of power Now, Exar Kun can make more use of his smaller well of power than Vader can make out of his bigger well of power, because Vader suffered his injuries he is unable to make full use of that well However, the total amount of power made use of is still greater for Vader given that he is more combatively deadly than Exar Kun, because to be deadly, is to convert force power through yourself, It is Living Force Ability, since Darth Vader has greater Living Force Power than Exar Kun, what this means is that the portion of power form the larger well that Vader has is greater than Exar Kun's entire well, In other words If we have 1000 (Vader's well) and we take 50%(Vaders ability) of it, we get 500. If we have 500(Kun's well) and we take 80%(Kuns ability) of it, we get 400. Therefore, in this case, 50% of 1000 (500) is indeed greater than 80% of 500 (400). The Value of the 50% is greater than the 80%, so Vader drawing 50% from his well - he is still getting more power than Kun drawing on 80% of his. Vader just has greater power at his disposal, and Jerec rivals that power, and Katarn exceeds it. which of course perfectly fits with Katarn being far more powerful than Marka Ragnos etc etc. What I am getting at here is that Vader's power is far greater than both Kun and Kaan, but there is a clear disconnect in Vader's power as we all know, and that level lies between Kun and Kaan. So in summary of (1) The Dark Side waxing and waning does not preclude anything I said and neither does the Force being timeless which was not refuted, I think it is, but there is obviously a constantly growing well of energy within that structure, an element which does increase over time, which still stands because you did not address it, we can get more into that after you do address it. if you want, can just concede too.


It is also important to note that Kun is one shotting Odan Urr before most of his growth even happens, getting the Dark Holocron which he acquired AFTER he one shot Odan Urr was the main thing attributed to his rise to power

Vaelias wrote:
So all that is saying is that now that Kun has been defeated again by Luke's order, Kun's teachings are gone and no records survive on Yavin, not that Kun upon his first defeat took all the 'Dark knowledge of the Sith' to his grave to where it never arose again, it evidently did because there are Sith that come after Kun, and Kun himself even comes back too lol. this is New Republic guys just saying it is unlikely the Sith will come back again now, after they finally killed Kun again

Vaelias wrote:
it should also be noted that in Star Wars Galaxies during the Battle of Echo Base there is a Vader fight, yet you can do him no damage, yet Exar Kun is a boss you can damage and defeat, but this is all ingrained in TOTJ itself and Hoth is a direct recipient of it, existing two thousand years of combat and force progression later and handling all the power we have outlined above

Vaelias wrote:
None of the debunks have sufficed to break any of the links or mechanics I have proposed, many of the debunks are based on a misreading or misunderstanding of the quotes and claims, or outright dismissal of them on no factual or reasonable basis, so all of this still holds.

E) Odan vs Nadd vs Bane

Vaelias wrote:
Ummm?? what? you say Urr scales above Ambria, I write a debunk on why he does not, and your counter argument is "NO, Urr scales above Ambria" Yes I know that is what you claimed, that is what I debunked, saying it again is not a counter, you need to debunk my debunk, again something which you seem to have ignored.


Darthor: Urr scales above Ambria
Vaelias: No he doesnt because X,Y,Z
Darththor: NO, note that Urr scales above Ambria

Bruh!


Too add to that, how does Urr scale above Nadd exactly you will need to substantiate on that, although I like the idea that Nadd may have been killed by Urr, it is nothing more than speculation, It's funny that you brush off a lot of the solid connections I have made here as "theories and hyper-literal interpretations" while subscribing to something like this, when "Bane of the Sith" does not even mean that Urr killed Nadd, Definition of Bane or to be the Bane of something:


SS - Lord Hoth (Vaelias) vs Odan Urr (Darthor) 004e5420f83259c9f5a8156ad38f6fa8


Now although option 2 there may support the idea, 1 seems the more likely given that - Odan Urr is no warrior and is likely not slaying Sith Lords - Odan Urr being the spokesman and leading the Jedi would very well make him a cause of great distress or annoyance to the Sith at large Do whatever but it still doesn't change the scaling, even if you end up with Urr > Nadd

Vaelias wrote:
Now we explained how Hoth and Kaan function the same, are essentially the opposites, Yoda and Palpatine of their time, and it seems we might have got a similar confrontation if Kaan hadnt have kamikaze'd the both of them, but as if this wasnt enough, lets touch on why I think Hoth is actually better than Kaan, and that is simply because the Jedi were beating the Sith, the Jedi were better, have always been better per Lucas and other EU works, Hoth's forces of light were greater, the Sith near defeated, heres a few quotes for that before we get into what makes Hoth stand out as a warrior


"It is time to end this foolish quest, Bane. The old ways have failed. The Jedi defeated those who followed them: Exar Kun, Darth Revan . . . they all lost! We have to find a new philosophy if we want to defeat them." -Path of Destruction, Kas'im
-
Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful. Each had drawn disciples in, teaching them the ways of the dark side. Each had assembled an army of followers and unleashed them against the Jedi. Yet in each and every case the servants of light had prevailed. -Path of Destruction
BEN (cont'd) This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight... not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized time. (He begins to remember) For over a thousand generations Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy... the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic. That was when the galactic senate ruled the galaxy before the dark times, before the empire. - Adventures of Luke Skywalker as taken from The Journal of the Whills
-
For over a thousand generations, Luke the Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy. -A New Hope Novelisation
-
Again, Lucas does not tell the audience whether the story is set in the past, present or future. We learn that the Jedi Bendu knights have known the force of others for a hundred thousand years, and that they were the most powerful warriors in the Universe until “the tragic Holy Rebellion of “06””.66 However, it is not revealed whether “06” refers to a specific period of time. -Star Wars, The Rough Draft, May 1974

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
Plagueis makes no note of the Ancient Sith being able to MM, he says only that they were capable of 'extending life' and that is not through MM it is through the draining of Living Force that is unleashed when people die, and that is how they 'bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult or prevent cells from reaching senescence.'

Vaelias wrote:
We see this same thing with Vader

Vaelias wrote:
Notice the disconnect here too, were they more powerful OR had the dark side just been more prominent The answer is, No they had not been more powerful, yes they had benefited from the dark side being more prominent, which is no surprise given that the dark side of this time is only a 'supporting wind', as oppose to a full blown imbalance where all the dark side is out and flowing around you

For the first time he could feel the Force of the dark side not as a mere supporting wind, fluffing the sails of a pleasure boat, but as a hurricane eager to loose a storm of destruction on the crumbling Republic and the indolent Jedi Order -Darth Plagueis

Seeing as the ability is explicitly drawing power from the others, the release of peoples Living Force energies when they die, they are just stealing other peoples energies to fuel their own. and of course there is much more of this going on in bygone era's the stronger imbalance the more war and death, the more energies released, it is not just a supporting wind, the dark side is rife, it is not a case of individual power, rather the conditions for the ability to be successful, Plagueis is not in a position to be draining powerful Jedi to extend his life

Darthor wrote:
2. Plagueis then noted the counter-argument that they used sorcery for this, but stated that sorcery is for other stuff, indicating that the reason for their success is ONE OF THE 2 CHOICES HE GAVE AND NOT SORCERY You seem to be using Plagueis refuting of a counter-argument of the Ancient's superiority as explicit proof that they aren't superior lol.
Sure I agree, it is one of the two options, and EVERYTHING we have points to option 2, especially when considering all the force growth and Plag GOAT stuff in the Plag Novel, as for the part about sorcery, drain itself is an ability that falls under sorcery, the dark lords used it LESS for draining and extending life, more for doing cool tricks like illusions etc, but the point I am making there is that the users of sorcery are put below Bane there, which I’ll expand on in the next paragraph cos I see you addressed it

Darthant66 wrote:
However, Plagueis' "the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras" second option is an irrelevant distinction for us debaters. In most Star Wars eras, the galactic Force is unbalanced and subsumed in the dark side; the galaxy is a mega dark side nexus. For example: "In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere" (Star Wars Legacy Campaign Guide). There is no way for us to separate the One Sith's showings from the all-present dark side, so we bake it into the cake of our analysis. We even attribute these shifts in the galactic Force—such as when Plagueis and Palpatine tilted it to the dark side, or when Order 66 further empowered Anakin and Palpatine—as permanent increases in the Force user's raw power. Ergo, regardless of whether the ancient Sith were more powerful than Plagueis due to inherent or galactic factors, they are clear-cut more powerful as it relates to versus debating.

Vaelias wrote:

Ok brilliant, give into your anger, the fact you questioned my reading comprehension before seeing the possibility of my outcome only speaks to your reading comprehension and how you missed a lot of context and meaning of this quote, probably because you are relying so heavy on the Neo Blog to explain this quote, cutting yourself off from possibility that it’s wrong, rather than being open to other (correct) explanations of the quote, allow me to expound on this, so, the Ancients could not manipulate Midichlorians at all, at least not in the way you are saying, they could not use MM, they could just extend life, but in different ways, they drain the energies released after death, Plagueis does not say that the ancients did not use sorcery to extend life, he just says they used it LESS to extend life and more to create illusions,the word "but" in the passage there is not specifically implying that the 'commentators' are wrong more that it is used to contrast the information from the commentators with a different perspective on the use of sorcery.

Vaelias wrote:
it acknowledges that some commentators claimed certain things about the ability to survive death and the use of sorcery, but it then presents an alternative viewpoint regarding how sorcery was mainly employed. The word "but" is to introduce this contrasting perspective rather than explicitly stating that the commentators are incorrect. It highlights a shift in focus and presents a different angle for consideration that is all. And no Plagueis does not say it was in fact because they are actually just more powerful, as I outlined above that is not the case.

Vaelias wrote:
Doesnt seem like he is talking about Sadow or Kun lol, I mean... look
quote]Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs. -Darth Plagueis
 Bane learned essence transfer which is a technique of GREATER Significance than what those other guys did, so the most powerful Sith survived death with it.
The use of the word "thus" in the passage indicates a logical conclusion or outcome based on the preceding information, (that Bane was a user of essence transfer) It suggests that Darth Bane's experimentation with essence transfer leads to a particular result or consequence, It implies a cause-and-effect relationship and signifies that essence transfer led to the stated outcome, that outcome being that the most powerful Sith survived to haunt their tombs with it.
Bane's rediscovery of essence transfer, and subsequent passing of the knowledge of the ability to the Sith proceeding him allows for the most powerful Sith, that being Bane and those proceeding him to haunt their tombs

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
So although some ancient Sith might have been able to employ essence transfer, the language used in the passage does not extend this conclusion to all ancient Sith Lords, but rather specifically to those who came after Bane, "Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs." The use of "thus" indicates that as a result of the preceding events, namely Bane's acquisition of essence transfer and the passing of his knowledge to his disciples, a specific group of Sith Lords (the most powerful of the ancient Sith) were able to cheat death and haunt their tombs, now obviously this only spans to Gravid which is when it was lost, as seen above it is the most powerful of Ancient Sith who lost it, that being the Sith from Bane - Gravid. So the quote most definitely does not put the Ancients above Plagueis or Bane rather it implies ET users are > sorcerers and puts Bane and the proceeding Banites above everybody prior to them, it most certainly does not work for you.

Vaelias wrote:
Ant is not a source, an I do not agree with his claim there, and there is a difference between the force being stronger and the dark side being stronger, we established those mechanics above, not to mention more prominent dark side does not exactly correlate to more powerful at all, especially when it is being related to the application of certain abilities which hinge on those energies, this is all debunked
Firstly, if you are refuting me using Endless Vigil, then why are you using Force and Destiny? What happened to this

Vaelias wrote:
secondly, explain to me how exactly do you suppose the Rule of Two power progression works if Force cannot be passed like fire, like you claimed above, I don't see how you can argue in favour of this yet be opposed to the above claims, accepting RoT scaling yet rejecting its functions. I don't want to go too much into this because I only mentioned it as a side note and Banite scaling is not actually really relevant to the debate But yeah I am saying that logically, if they failed to dawn the mantle of Dark Lord in the correct fashion, then they would not be anointed by the Dark Side to properly dawn the mantle, and we know for certain this happens, we have several instances of Rule of Two Sith waiting for their Master to get old and weak, killing them early or ganging up on them, like I proposed above, I can go into this more if you like, but I think the fact we have Lucas saying that, and we actually get examples in the lore of Sith failing to act in accordance to the doctrine, is a better indication of the progression than a blanket statement from two source books, now I am generally against this type of position generally there is always a way to make it all fit, but I do think in this case we get these blanket quotes and then we get the actual depictions of the events, on top of Lucas, and some of them do seem to conflict, so in that case we get told by LFL officials to go with the story itself and to take G-Canon over C-Canon, so I just think that is the correct position to hold here. leave this point here or whatever

Vaelias wrote:
No it does not, but quickly... to note here I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Nadd could be anywhere near Bane. it is just outright false, since it is ingrained into Bane's narrative that Bane gathers up all the Ancient Sith's power, he inherits Nadd's power, Nadd's holocron and tomb contain the collected knowledge and secrets of the Ancient Sith

Vaelias wrote:
During this expedition to claim the Legacy, he gathers all the power and knowledge of the Ancient Sith, he is their culmination, thus has more power and mastery than any one before him.

Vaelias wrote:
Which makes him the only one in the long history of the Sith who had ever been strong enough to save the Sith and start the Rule of Two for one to properly embody the power for the first time ever

Vaelias wrote:
So right away the notion that Nadd can be anywhere near Bane is completely false, all we have is Bane freaking out cos he cant make a Holocron, he is like "am I just not powerful enough WTF why won't it work" from the get go the issue for Bane is that he does not have complete knowledge on how to actually make one, he knew the basics but there is something missing that he does not have, it isn't an issue of his power in the force,
Another Issue Bane has is that he does not yet have full control of the new powers granted by the Orabaliks the pain is getting in the way, so much like the quote you shared above, this is another one of those proposed thoughts that is clearly not the actual reason for failure
The Orbalisks are making Bane go rage mode too much for the most part, creating a Holocron also requires Sith Magic, something that Bane is innately dispositioned to.
I disagree there, Bane believed his POWER measured up to the FEATS of Legend, not that his power measures up to the actual Ancients, just the feats he knows about, feats which he believes to be exaggerations anyways, meaning he does not think the Ancient's power even measured up to the feats, but his does anyway

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
I don't believe you even have a solid basis for Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd, not to mention the other stuff but it is funny that you acknowledge that 2 Orbalisk Bane is > Fire Storm Bane, when fire storm Bane powerful enough to break a planet, which is the very basis you are using to scale Urr above, which he doesn't scale above anyway, so why don't you throw Bane up there above all your scaling too.

IV. MISC.

A): Ambria Analysis:

Vaelias wrote:
Saying "Uhhh what" and then reiterating what I already debunked is not a debunk, I did not say it was not still and extremely huge Dark Side nexus, I said the power of the ritual and the residue energy it scared the planet with are disconnected, and not the same level of power, given that you did not address this and said uhh but its still a huge dark side nexus, Ill take that as a concession.
Yes, I don't deny that the power of the ritual and the power that stained the land are the same energy, much like how I would not deny that the bullet that killed the guy was the same bullet fired from the gun, lol. But the full power of the ritual was not infused on the land it only left stains, so the entire basis of your argument is shattered because we cannot quantify the power the ritual actually left on the land

Vaelias wrote:
He easily repelled them just long enough to get in the middle of the lake then he started failing, sure its impressive ig, but he cant easily repel them for long at all, and this doesn't even scale from the power of the ritual, nor even equate to parity with the remaining power there.

Spoiler:

Vaelias wrote:
You don't manually have to imbue it with Light Side energy, that is the point I was making, just the Jedi presence there will do that, and it wasnt just Thon being there that did that, well I mean in part it was, sure, but he started an academy there, there was a Jedi presence there for some time, so It wasn't just Thon who is solely responsible for that
Same energy sure, all of the same energy, no, quote ? I want to see a quote that says the full power of the ritual imbued into the landscape, read my analogy above, why does that not apply, you didn't respond to that, why would that not be the case ?

Vaelias wrote:
You said it yourself, she turned it into dark side tendrils, and it was those that got Bane, not necessarily the power level of the amount of energy she summoned, sorcery is pulling power from around you, into you and through you back out again, it is a way of harnessing energies and transmuting them with a spell, it is the spell that Bane loses to, and it also happens to be spells Bane is uniquely disadvantaged to through his lack of talent for sorcery, which brings up a little side note ill just touch on here and that is that the Rule of Two might be for expanding the Dark Side arsenal more so than anything else, Bane has it all but sorcery, then Zannah adds sorcery to that and so on, seems likely seeing as they sort of took sorcery away from Bane and gave it to Zannah instead, but just a cool note there on the topic.
Bane does not understand this given his ineptitude for sorcery and the use of the word 'somehow' here, so there is that, then you have Zannah GIVING the energies substance and corporeality, TRANSFORMING them
It was not just dark side power doing the damage it is the spell which creates void which eats at him

Vaelias wrote:
So I don't think this is anything more than Zannah exploiting Bane's weakness with a spell that he is uniquely not suited to deal with. we literally get a comparison to Bane and the full power of the ACTUAL RITUAL, not just the stains left behind. when Cognus see's a vision of both the power of the Ritual on Ambria and PoD Bane before most of his growth when he was being healed by Caleb, during which time Bane is explicitly weakened too, and concludes that, that Bane is far above anything else she has SEEN or FELT.