STOMPER SHOWDOWN FINALE - KYP DURRON (RNG) VS DARTH THANATON (DARTH PLAGUEIS THE WISE)

who tf is RNG. reminds me of that ben 10 alien

The Sith Lord Darth Thanaton is repeatedly stated to be a supreme power within the SWTOR Sith Empire.

"Supreme":

Meme:

This is significant because Thanaton has this hype from within an era that is the direct successor to one in which the Jedi are "in their prime", and is a high ranking Sith in what is the True Sith.

Prime:

True Sith:

His own rival, the soon-to-be Darth Nox is an immense prodigy and descendant of one of the most powerful Sith of a previous era, had to go to great lengths to even compete with Thanaton.

Prodigy:

Kallig:

Ghosts:

Ghosts backfiring:

So, in summary... Darth Thanaton is an immensely powerful Sith within an empire of Sith that are hyped up to be far greater than what the Jedi of the Old Republic can handle, while said Jedi also benefit from several goat statements. His rival is an immense prodigy, descendant of one of the greatest rivals of one of the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith in existence, who is not only pushed to his limit against Thanaton, but is forced to augment himself immensely through Sith rituals that force his body to combust in Force energy.


An angle that I feel is important to discuss is that of the rivalry between Tulak Lord and Lord Kallig, alongside their place within the Sith hierarchy. The most common theory is that Tulak Hord is one of the Dark Jedi that were exiled at the end of the Hundred Year Darkness, and there is a fair amount of evidence to support this.

For one, extremely ancient Sith Lords are repeatedly depicted with proper lightsabers, even though this is a technology that has to be "rediscovered" later on.. Tulak Hord is explicitly mentioned as being a lightsaber wielder, same with Lord Kallig.

Lightsabers:

Hord and Kallig:

Tulak Hord is explicitly stated to have hidden artifacts far enough away from Stygian Caldera as Balmorra and Alderaan, and to have warred against the Jedi and Republic. This had to be pre-GHW, and the only war that we know of during that time period is Dark Jedi Exiles that left Korriban to challenge the Jedi.

Artifacts:

Hord War:

Dark Jedi Exiles:

With this in mind, both Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig are called some of the most powerful Sith of their era.

Hord:

Kallig:

While other Sith from this era, such as XoXaan and Karness Muur, both have significant comparisons to powerful Sith such as Darth Krayt.

XoXaan:

Karness Muur:

Krayt for reference:

This isn't even all of the hype that Sith from this get, as Karness Muur is shown to be a potential avenue for defeating Palpatine, and being an equally oppressive master.

Dark Times Muur:

So... in conclusion, Tulak Hord, and Lord Kallig, are given goat statements for Sith lords within an era that has powerhouses such as Karness Muur and XoXaan. They are both potentially within the RoTS titan class. "Why is this signifcant?" you may ask, Darth Nox is the confirmed successor to Tulak Hord by Khem Val, Tulak Hord's personal bodyguard who has fought countless battles alongside his master. Khem Val is not stating this lightly, and is extremely biased in favor of Hord over Nox. For reference, this occurs immediately after the fight with Darth Thanaton.

Successor :

Bias:

In conclusion:

Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton


Horak-Mul is one of several encountered and enslaved by Darth Nox, in an effort to surpass Darth Thanaton. Out of the 4, he is the one with the most history, previously serving as Ludo Kressh's right hand man.

Horak-Mul:

He makes repeated interactions with Nox and his servants prior to being bound.

Evidence:

Horak-Mul is utterly amazed by not only Nox, but by his servants.

Apprentice:

And even... declares inferiority on his entire era's behalf to that of one of Nox's servants.

Khem:

This is extremely significant because it establishes that in the eye's of Horak-Mul, a extremely high ranking Sith from right before the Great Hyperspace War, Khem Val's own power is great enough that he could easily make anyone the Dark Lord of the Sith of Horak-Mul's era. The two most prominent Sith from Horak-Mul's era are Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos, with Horak-Mul suggesting that Hoth Khem would be capable of killing either. This both raises Tulak Hord immensely, as well as Khem, Nox, and Thanaton.

This is not an outlier, as Khem does have similar quotes.

Khem:

Sadly for Khem, Darth Thanaton is one of the few Sith with claim to have had defeated the dashade shadow assassin.

Defeat:

Likewise, this is not the first time SWTOR has cucked Naga Sadow.

Defeat:

Naga Sadow < Hoth Khem << Beginning of Act 2 Nox << 2 spirits Nox < Nox + Khem <<< Darth Thanaton.


When stats get brought into this, prospects do not look bright for Kyp.

Kyp:

NJO Jaina is close, and actually has superior dueling stats in minis.

Jaina:

Random KOTOR Jedi and Sith are written as superior duelists to Kyp.

Jedi Guardian:

Sith Marauder :

Kyp can possibly piggyback off of Corran being better off in minis.

Corran:

Which places him within a similar combative range to Bastila Shan.

Bastila:

But still below Lucien Draay.

Draay:

And both Naga Sadow and Freedon Nadd.

Sadow and Nadd:

This isn't anywhere near a good look for Kyp if stats are holding Naga Sadow well above Kyp, while SWTOR holds Sadow below Khem Val, much less Thanaton.


Darth Thanaton is of such high rank, that the Lords that kneel before him have all of Naga Sadow's collection of Force knowledge.

Zash:

Knowledge that Palpatine feared his servants knowing.

Palpatine:

He prides himself on his decades of study into the Force.

Sorcery:

And repeatedly makes use of his sorcery within combat.

Combat:

He has his own vast collection of Sith lore.

Library:

Benefits from the Sith Empire having an entire army branch dedicated to the recovery of dark side knowledge and artifacts.

IRS:

And as a Dark Council member, has access to a bidden repository of knowledge curated by the Sith Emperor Vitiate.

Dark Library:

Darth Thanaton has had more time to study arcane Sith texts and dark side lore than Luke's entire Jedi Order has existed for, had a far greater starting foundation to begin his studies, and benefits from a far greater government entity which desires knowing as much about the Force as is possible. To assume that Kyp would know even close to many Force techniques, much less sorcery, as Thanaton is to make a mistake.


Horak-Mul admitting inferiority of all Sith of his era to Khem Val necessitates that Darth Thanaton is well beyond the Sith of Horak-Mul's era, which would include characters such as Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, and Naga Sadow.

Darth Nox is a true successor to the Sith lords Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig, both of whom are supported as being the greatest Sith not long after the Hundred Year Darkness.

This necessitates that Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig are, at a minimum, near Karness Muur in combative power.

Stats significantly favor Naga Sadow over Kyp or any other, non-Luke, NJO Jedi.

Darth Thanaton has had decades to master Sith sorcery, which Kyp should struggle to counter.

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First and foremost, I'd like to congratulate both of us for making it to this point. We've both overcome everyone before us to reach this point. And now it's time for a victor. May fortune smile upon the greater man.

I will be responding to some of the points on your respect thread opener and then move on to my own respect thread opener.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:This is significant because Thanaton has this hype from within an era that is the direct successor to one in which the Jedi are "in their prime", and is a high ranking Sith in what is the True Sith.

As I'm sure you know: None of this really binds the NJO. There's more to address here with some of the specific evidence you've sent but I'll leave it at that for now.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:His own rival, the soon-to-be Darth Nox is an immense prodigy and descendant of one of the most powerful Sith of a previous era, had to go to great lengths to even compete with Thanaton.

The soon to be Nox was far from reaching his full potential during his first confrontation with Thanaton. He needed the force walking amp to make up for his momentary inferiority. Thanaton feared how powerful he'd become.

Obviously not denying Thanaton's supremacy over Nox in their first fight, but it's not all too impressive of Thanaton to fear a prodigy in such an early stage of his career. Speaks more to Nox's greatness than anything in favor of Thanaton.

Also as the scans you've sent support, the soon to be Nox already outstripped Thanaton pretty handily in power as early as their second fight. Like... a literal ragdoll gap. Only due to his lack of control did the soon to be Nox fail.

Second Fight:

To conclude this section, we basically disagree on it being impressive. Even prodigies are generally weak early on in their careers. The soon to be Nox needing an amp is hardly that impressive. And he practically surpasses Thanaton in raw power rather early.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:So... in conclusion, Tulak Hord, and Lord Kallig, are given goat statements for Sith lords within an era that has powerhouses such as Karness Muur and XoXaan. They are both potentially within the RoTS titan class. "Why is this signifcant?" you may ask, Darth Nox is the confirmed successor to Tulak Hord by Khem Val, Tulak Hord's personal bodyguard who has fought countless battles alongside his master. Khem Val is not stating this lightly, and is extremely biased in favor of Hord over Nox. For reference, this occurs immediately after the fight with Darth Thanaton.

I don't think any of the quotes imply he's surpassed Hord in raw power. Just that he is powerful. "Successor" and "Heir" don't automatically mean he's more powerful. More that he's carrying on their greatness and cause. Nox can, will, and does surpass Hord and Kallig. But as of defeating Thanaton? I don't quite think so.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton

Seeing as how he's literally able to ragdoll Thanaton sheer power wise in a super unrefined state, I think you ought to add a lot more ">" in between Nox and Thanaton. The way it's portrayed, Nox is toying with Thanaton. Trumps him with ease once he's able to control his power. (Video is timestamped):

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Horak-Mul is utterly amazed by not only Nox, but by his servants.

You say this as if he's prostrating himself to Nox in the scan you sent. He isn't. He's literally just saying "Cool. Good work. You're not bad". Not that big a deal though. Just thought I should address.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:And even... declares inferiority on his entire era's behalf to that of one of Nox's servants.

Now.... I must cast some doubt on this for a couple of reasons:

1:
Simply put, if Horak believed Nox to be above everyone of his era, wouldn't he say so directly? He feels Nox's power and everything. The way he treats Nox is far from that of a person he'd be a subordinate to. He also believes Ludo Kressh to be the true Dark Lord. I wouldn't put too much stock into his opinions:

Horak:

2:
The Dashade were unparalleled assassins. Meaning Horak in this context is saying Khem could have assassinated a lot of political rivals and shit. More praise for Khem's assassination skills. Which is good for Khem, but it's not outright saying Khem > Sadow.

Furthermore, look at how Horak died, he was ganked by assassins. Would it not make sense for a prideful Sith such as himself to overhype the types of enemy that killed him? Would it not make sense for him to see an assassin with good skill and think "wow, imagine the damage that thing could do if it did what my assassins did to far more people"?
Well to further hammer this point home, here's his telling of how he died:

Telling:

And here's how he actually died:

Death:

He was ganked by 2 assassins. Not 5. Now, there's three ways we can look at this:

1: He's arrogant and prideful. He overhyped the circumstances of his own death and thus it's not a stretch to assume he'd overhype the power of a very skilled assassin to crazy heights. Clearly his perspective is somewhat skewed.
2: He's so stupid that he forgot how he died. How's he gonna concede inferiority on behalf of his era if he can't remember such a simple thing? (Joke)
3 It's just an inconsistency/retcon, writers are idiots for not noticing the circumstances of Horak's death/the writers retconned the circumstances.

I'd put far more stock into 1. Especially because he feels the need to overhype what it took to kill him by saying "Not one, but five!" Mans is definitely compensating.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Likewise, this is not the first time SWTOR has cucked Naga Sadow.

I'd say this example is more a case of his spirit weakening greatly after his death. I mean this was a good while after Nadd killed him. He's not exactly getting cucked. Plus Ovair is from a family specially raised and trained to deal with Sith spirits.
Furthermore, I must ask: As this video says, Vitiate explicitly considered the spirits of the ancient Sith a threat to his power. So if Sadow were as weak as you're trying to say, why would Vitiate, (someone who's leagues above Nox and Thanaton and all the rest of the era) need them taken care of before his invasion?

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:When stats get brought into this, prospects do not look bright for Kyp.
NJO Jaina is close, and actually has superior dueling stats in minis.

You wound me, Plagueis. You truly do. Am I not worthy of your real, serious arguments? Why must you bait me? Why save all the good stuff for future responses? Not to worry, I'll address this point:

For one thing, based on Kyp's appearance here + the set Durron's mini was released with (Imperial Entanglements, a mostly OT era set that focuses on Rebel vs Empire stuff), it's clear that this is a Durron who's super early in his career and massively pre prime. End of Jedi Academy most probably.

Mini Set:

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Random KOTOR Jedi and Sith are written as superior duelists to Kyp.

Assuming for just a split second that Kyp is sub random KOTOR Jedi dueling, which is a stretch to say the least, funnily enough, he still outstrips all the cards you've sent in the force. With a ranking of 4. Even a super early Kyp is super potent in that aspect.
However, that's besides the point. Using this mini for scaling is like calling GM Luke fodder because ESB Luke is sub Vader. In fact, minis somewhat do support NJO supremacy (for average Jedi of respective eras anyway), I will get more into this later.

Plus, mini stats aren't the best to use for scaling in general, great as supporting evidence, don't get me wrong. But as we all know, minis are super wonky at times. Need I provide scans of suited Vader>KFV? Not a good idea to use them as your chain link.

Meme:

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Knowledge that Palpatine feared his servants knowing.

Fear is a somewhat strong word for this lol. It's more Palps playing his cards close to the chest than anything super damning. And superstition. You wouldn't give knowledge to people you want to remain subordinates to you. But this isn't too important. Just wanted to throw it in.

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Darth Rymrgand wrote:Darth Thanaton has had more time to study arcane Sith texts and dark side lore than Luke's entire Jedi Order has existed for, had a far greater starting foundation to begin his studies, and benefits from a far greater government entity which desires knowing as much about the Force as is possible. To assume that Kyp would know even close to many Force techniques, much less sorcery, as Thanaton is to make a mistake.

While Thanaton does have a fair deal of force knowledge, it certainly won't be a trump card or the deciding factor. Nor are his abilities hax tier.

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Lets start with hype. Durron is an extremely potent Jedi in a potent era. He played a major role in the bloodiest war in galactic history and is an extremely skilled force user. And he's still going strong. As for his era... The New Jedi Order doesn't play second fiddle. It's above PT and TOTJ. And has the stats to back it up. (For average Jedi anyway):

NJO Supremacy:

A much younger and more inexperienced Jedi of the NJO (literally stated to be a student) has parity with a full on Jedi Guardian of the KOTOR era in mini stats. While mini stats can sometimes be wonky, in this case, it's supported by other evidence and stands.

NJO in stats:

Kyp Hype:

Meme:

Durron is a top tier Jedi in an era that has demonstrable supremacy over PT and TOTJ/KOTOR.

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Now let's revisit your chain for a moment:

Darth Rymrgand wrote:Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton

Let's assume for the moment that Hord was equal to/sub Nox as of him defeating Thanaton. As I've explained earlier, Nox was a good stomp gap above Thanaton so lets make a slight change to your chain:
Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>>>>>>> Darth Thanaton

Now let's look at Luke Skywalker for a moment: As of ROTJ, he's able to resist Palpatine's mental influence whilst beating Vader in a duel.

Resisting Palps:

Palpatine during ROTS was able to use a dark side confusion haze to weaken the B team enough for him to utterly stomp them.

B Team:

Luke as early as ROTJ is able to surpass the mental strength of the B team.

As we all know, he grows rather exponentially from there to Dark Empire. As of the end of DE 1 issue 1, Luke's already basically at PT master tier+. He's "awakening to the legendary powers of the great Masters of old..." which obviously refers to Yoda and Kenobi, since they're mentioned in the same passage.

Growth as of BoDE:

Palpatine is also much more powerful now:

Palpy:

And of course. Palpatine as of DE is far, far, far above ROTS Palpatine in power. And all the better able to use his awesome power in a fresh clone body.

Handbook:

And Luke out-duels this Palpatine with an amp from Leia.

Luke vs Palps:

An amp that was earlier described as elementary. An amp he didn't even feel.

Leia:

So dueling and force augmentation wise, Luke as of DE outperforms Yoda. Who was about equal to, but slightly lesser than Palpatine:

Yodder:

While DE Luke doesn't outstrip the Reborn Emperor in terms of pure force power, all of this is more than enough to put him above the ROTS titans. He's already close to that point at the beginning of DE 1 (as per the second endnotes quote I posted). And his experiences with the Emperor and his ultimate refusal of the dark side have only made him more powerful. Hell, he's already showing superior mental resistance to the B team as early as ROTS. Needless to say, as of the end of DE 1, Luke>ROTS titans.
You may think: "but you've posted evidence from the DE endnotes. That came out before the PT." It's still valid as it hasn't exactly been contradicted. And it is supported in evidence. It makes perfect narrative sense and everything.

And of course, Luke only grows after DE:

Luke Growth:

So where does Kyp Durron fall into things?

He is compared to Luke multiple times:

Luke Comparisons:

And of course.... the infamous Dovin Basal feat:

More Comparison:

Now one thing I must emphasize:
NJO Kyp is NOT above Luke in raw power. Not at all. Allston himself (writer of the Enemy Lines duology) says so. Luke has multiple statements as of NJO that have him as GOAT Jedi Master. And as as we all know, Luke holds back a LOT post DE and pre TUF. TUF is truly when Luke becomes the force god he's hyped up to be by some people. As is the case with Luke throughout his life, when he gets serious, he gets SUPER deadly.

That being said, all of Luke's power growth quotes are 100% valid. As in, Pre TUF NJO Luke > > > Post DE Luke > > DE Luke. It's just that he's holding back. Not truly willing to go all out. While NJO Kyp is sub NJO Luke, the very fact that some characters IU hold him at Luke tier AND the fact that he's able to outperform Luke with the dovin basal feat (more on this later) means that he has some measure of parity. It means they're within the same realm.

To reiterate:
NJO Kyp is sub NJO Luke. But to the degree that he'd still benefit from scaling.

After NJO, Durron as well as the rest of the NJO experience growth:

Bug Man:

So with all that evidence + your original scaling chain, we get the below chain:

Post NJO Kyp >> NJO Kyp ~<< (same realm) NJO Luke >> Post DE Luke >>> DE Luke >> RoTS Titan class ~ Karness Muur ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>>>>>>> Darth Thanaton

Now of course, this is assuming Hord ~< Nox. And as I've said before, I don't believe Nox surpasses Hord as of his victory over Thanaton. Though, even if he did, it hardly benefits Thanaton, as the stomp gap between him and Nox would prevent him from benefitting through ROTS titan scaling.

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I will simply state that nothing that Thanaton (or anyone in his realm) has done or can do is on the same scale of both power and skill as the dovin basal feat. Moving black holes, even artificial ones is nothing to shake one's head at. Not only did he perform this super focus intensive feat, he also did so whilst piloting. And he killed a Grutchin immediately afterward.

Dovin Basal Feat:

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Responses:

-Nox, as of killing Thanaton isn't exactly > Hord. "Successor" doesn't always necessitate him surpassing Hord in power.
-Thanaton is massively sub Nox. A good stomp gap below. Nox basically makes Thanaton prostrate himself. Thanaton wouldn't really benefit from scaling. No more than Quinlan Vos would benefit from being sub Dooku.
-Horak's praise of Khem wouldn't really put him > Sadow and even assuming that was the intent, Horak isn't exactly that reliable a source. Furthermore, characters conceding on behalf of other characters is also a very slippery slope to use scaling wise. In one of the quotes I sent, Wurth Skidder estimates NJO Kyp > NJO Luke. And he's observed the power of both before that point. Yet we know NJO Luke >~ NJO Kyp.
-Kyp's mini stats are hardly usable for the purposes of this debate since they portray a massively pre prime Kyp. And even then, he still outstrips in the force. Dueling isn't Kyp's greatest attribute anyway. That being said, within his era, he's still a top tier duelist. Furthermore, using mini stats alone as a chain link is wonky.

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Opener:

-The NJO era has solid hype + demonstrable supremacy over other eras. Kyp as a top tier in said era obviously benefits greatly. And he has no shortage of hype. Mini stats can also support what we're told in lore. (For average Jedi anyway)
-Using your own chain (with a slight modification), we can scale Kyp far above Thanaton. NJO Kyp has multiple comparisons and connections that we can use to safely say he's in the same realm as NJO Luke (but ofc lower), who's above the PT titan class. And Kyp only grows after NJO.
-Durron's TK is on another level. In terms of both power and skill.

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That concludes my opener. In the coming responses, I plan on looking into more stats, force knowledge, feats, etc.

I look forward to seeing where this goes.