Stomper Showdown R2 #2 - Return! Darth Malgus (Janix) vs An'ya Kuro (Darth Durin's Baneling)

An’ya Kuro’s most impressive duel is against Darth Vader, at around 1 BBY (a mere five years before suited Vader peaked). She’s about even in terms of speed, manages to hold a bladelock against the monstrously strong Sith Lord, hinders him with the use of the plants in the surrounding area, and even manages to disarm him when she takes advantage of her teleportation abilities.














Essentially, An’ya reacts to Vader’s charge, catching his blade and briefly holding a bladelock. After a few seconds’ recovery for both combatants, An’ya charges Vader and unleashes a flurry of lightsaber blows, which Vader parries. Vader then launches a pair of boulders at An’ya, which she redirects. She controls the plants behind Vader to restrain him, while she attacks. Vader manages to deflect two of her blows, before breaking free and physically striking her in the face. Vader drives her back with a series of forceful lightsaber attacks. To escape, An’ya teleports into the water behind Vader, leaping out and using the force of the leap to disarm the Sith Lord.

She charges forward, but Vader catches her by the wrist, throwing her down and claiming that she was nothing in comparison to him. Vader reclaims his lightsaber with the force, while An’ya picks up hers. Vader once more has her on the defensive, cutting through a large tree in the process. Vader pulls the tree down on her position with the force, crushing her, and then stabs her, ending her life.

Despite not being a match for Vader, An’ya manages to keep up speed wise just fine, and was more light on her feet than him, evading several of his attacks through her agility. She was able to contend with him in terms of strength, and proved skillful in integrating her unorthodox force abilities into single combat. Darth Vader has some extremely impressive speed and strength feats that make An’ya’s duel against him even more impressive. For example, casually crushing an elite Stromtrooper’s head through his helmet:


As far as speed is concerned, Vader was able to strike down a Jedi (Sia-Lan Wezz, an Order 66 survivor) before she could react. To make this even more impressive for Vader, this was accomplished in 19 BBY, almost two decades of growth before his duel with the Dark Woman.


Because of this comparison, An’ya keeping up with Vader in terms of physicality is easily more impressive than anything Malgus has as of Return.

Quick Rebuttal

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:"Because of this comparison, An'ya keeping up with Vader in terms of physicality is easily more impressive than anything Malgus has as of Return."

Being able to keep up with Darth Vader and withstand his speed means nothing in this battle. Just because Vader seems to be of similar build of Malgus, the stature of a Force-Sensitive is not at all indicative of their strength due to Force Augmentation. This is shown time and time again, but a good example of this is how Darth Sidious (a frail Old Man by appearance) is able to ragdoll Savage Oppress with a single kick while Savage has been shown to be an unmovable tank to most Jedi he has faced. Darth Malgus as of 'Return' is already scaling far beyond Darth Vader, thus An'ya Kuro has no chance against him.


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Malgus Destroys

As you so eloquently proved in your post, An'ya Kuro is below Darth Vader 5 years before his prime. Apprentice Malgus is far beyond prime Darth Vader, which I will prove in the following.


Exar Kun alone is already above the likes of Prime Darth Vader.


Normal Darth Malak is already above Exar Kun, thus Darth Vader.

The Old Republic | Lord Scourge wrote:"I altered my loyalties to avert a threat to myself and you. Jedi are not alone in seeing the future. Centuries ago I had a vision of the Emperor destroying the galaxy. Republic, Empire, everything gone. This Jedi has the power to stop him."

Chapter 3 Hero of Tython is thus stronger than Novel Revan according to Lord Scourge. Chapter 3 Hero of Tython is equivocal to the Chapter 3 Emperor's Wrath who is tired by a Dark Council Member (Darth Baras) who was not even the strongest of the council.


Grand Master Satele Shan writes in reference to her experience with Apprentice Malgus during the "Return" Cinematic that he was stronger in the dark side than any opponent she has faced. This includes the duo of Darth Baras and Dark Council Darth Angral which she writes about in the same source.


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TL;DR: Apprentice Malgus >~ Dark Council Members ~ Chapter 3 HoT > Novel Revan >> Amnesiac Revan > Star Forge Malak >>> Normal Malak > Exar Kun > Darth Vader >> 1 BBY Vader > An'ya Kuro

An'ya Kuro dies.

@Janix wrote:Being able to keep up with Darth Vader and withstand his speed means nothing in this battle. Just because Vader seems to be of similar build of Malgus, the stature of a Force-Sensitive is not at all indicative of their strength due to Force Augmentation. This is shown time and time again, but a good example of this is how Darth Sidious (a frail Old Man by appearance) is able to ragdoll Savage Oppress with a single kick while Savage has been shown to be an unmovable tank to most Jedi he has faced.

An'ya keeping up with Vader in terms of physicality is quite impressive, as Darth Vader's physical attributes, from strength and speed, to durability and stamina, far outclass that of Malgus's, especially as of Return. There is no need to remind me of how physical stature means little to nothing in terms of a force user's physical talents. Vader, though, as you pointed out in your answer, similar in build to Malgus, is far and away faster, stronger, and more durable. Vader's feats of physical crushing metal plating, speedblitzing Jedi, and appearing to teleport to regulars, is much better than anything Malgus has demonstrated.

Now to debunk the following scaling.

Neither of the statements that you have provided show anything of Exar being more powerful than Vader.


When someone is compared to a nun, combative ability is not the first thing that springs to mind.
"Fearsome" refers to his lack of morals compared to other Jedi. Even with some of the most powerful Jedi in history, such as Yoda or Satele Shan, "fearsome" is not an adjective that would be used to describe them, unless it were specifically referring to their battlefield prowess... which this statement is not.
This statement does nothing but solidify the idea of Exar Kun being crueler than Darth Vader, not more powerful.


Also irrelevant. Vader does not know all of the Sith techniques. That is a given. There is nothing stating that Kun knew all of them, or at least not in this quote that you are using to try to argue for Kun's superiority. Even if Kun did know them all, force mastery is not the only factor in battle. There are others to consider.

Neither quote comes even close to proving Exar's superiority to Vader, which is necessary for your scaling. Without it, it all falls apart. Even so, I will continue to disprove other inaccurate points.

@Janix wrote:Chapter 3 Hero of Tython is equivocal to the Chapter 3 Emperor's Wrath who is tired by a Dark Council Member (Darth Baras) who was not even the strongest of the council.

The question is, why exactly should the Hero of Tython be held equivalent to the Emperor's Wrath in terms of power? No such accolade is given to the Wrath. Are we to assume then, that somehow the Voidhound is equal to those two as well? Cipher Nine? There is no reason for the Emperor's Wrath to be equal to the Hero of Tython.

@Janix wrote:Grand Master Satele Shan writes in reference to her experience with Apprentice Malgus during the "Return" Cinematic that he was stronger in the dark side than any opponent she has faced. This includes the duo of Darth Baras and Dark Council Darth Angral which she writes about in the same source.

Here is the quote provided.


You'll notice that Satele states that Malgus is the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side she has experienced, not that he was when she first faced him. As such, that scaling may be applicable to Malgus in his prime, but definitely not to Malgus as of Return.


The entire scaling chain is severely flawed in several areas, and it needs to be able to stand on every point to be able to support Malgus being superior to An'ya.

An'ya Kuro, as shown, was able to give Darth Vader as of 1 BBY a great fight, even landing hits on him. There is no reason for immense power growth between 1 BBY and 4 ABY. So, the difference between the two has no reason to be too substantial.

According to Lucas himself, Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious.

Vanity Fair Magazine (said by George Lucas) wrote:“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

Sidious, according to over a dozen statements, was the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

The Complete Visual Dictionary wrote:Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

That would include Vitiate.

Satele Shan believes that, because the Hero of Tython defeated Vitiate, he can defeat False Emperor Malgus as well.

The Old Republic (False Emperor Flashpoint, said by Satele Shan) wrote:"You have defeated one emperor, and you can do so again. May the Force be with you."

Malgus as of FE is easily more powerful than he was as of Deceived, which was in turn a vast improvement since Hope, which was also an advance after Return.

There are several other scaling chains that place Return Malgus so decisively below Vitiate that the gap may as well be infinite.

A more accurate scaling chain would be:

An'ya Kuro < 1 BBY Vader < RotJ Vader < RotJ Sidious > Vitiate > FE Malgus >> Deceived Malgus >>> Hope Malgus >> Return Malgus

Clearly more favorable for An'ya than for Malgus.

An'ya massacres.

Rebuttal

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:When someone is compared to a nun, combative ability is not the first thing that springs to mind... This statement does nothing but solidify the idea of Exar Kun being crueler than Darth Vader, not more powerful.

Wrong. If you read the quote, it is obvious that this is meant to refer to Vader, being in comparison to Kun, looks like a frail and defenseless Nun. Fearsome is clearly relating to power and not appearance, as there is no way that a man made of machines who destroys planets is somehow less fearsome than a dude with an ego problem based off appearance alone. Even outside of the semantic statements of 'fearsome' or the direct comparison of Vader's inferiority, the author clearly states that Exar Kun's power is 'unbelievable' which at minimum puts him beyond Vader whom he mentioned.



Star Wars Fact File as of 2005 places Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is of course retconned, as Malak is later placed higher than him and so is Sidious. However, Vader is not broken from this chain, being sub-Exar Kun.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:The question is, why exactly should the Hero of Tython be held equivalent to the Emperor's Wrath in terms of power? No such accolade is given to the Wrath. Are we to assume then, that somehow the Voidhound is equal to those two as well? Cipher Nine? There is no reason for the Emperor's Wrath to be equal to the Hero of Tython

As of Chapter 3, the Hero of Tython's best feat is defeating the Emperor's Voice, which the Wrath does as well while the Voice is empowered even further by a dark-side entity.



Regardless of this, it is clear the developers think all of the classes are equally as powerful. All of the expansions are equally canonical, thus every class has the same combative power. This is further backed up by the 'Choose Your Side' trailers which have the viewers choose who would win between the canonical classes.






So yes, the classes are obviously of the same combative power.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:You'll notice that Satele states that Malgus is the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side she has experienced, not that he was when she first faced him. As such, that scaling may be applicable to Malgus in his prime, but definitely not to Malgus as of Return

No. There is no indication of time like you imply. In fact, the full quote certainly shows it is as of Return. (I didn't include the full quote before due to it requiring me to use MS-Paint to have it be on the same line.)



She clearly dictates that he would later be Darth Malgus, which shows that her statement of his strength applies to Return as well as she does not imply he grew to that strength in the slightest.



This is clearly backed up by her encounter in 'Hope.' Satele Shan fears fighting the Malgus she saw in 'Return' and she makes no effort to indicate any sort of growth on his behalf. The only reason she survived the battle was due to the 'courage and strength' of Jace Malcom.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Satele Shan believes that, because the Hero of Tython defeated Vitiate, he can defeat False Emperor Malgus as well.

Yet it takes 4 HoT level fighters to temporarily defeat him.


The Hero of Tython is directly compared to Malgus in this quote by the non-biased HK-47. As of False Emperor, the Hero of Tython is weak compared to FE Malgus.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:According to Lucas himself, Vader was 80% as powerful as Sidious.

Irrelevant. Power in the Force is clearly not linear. This is shown by Starkiller (who has more potential than Vader in Sidious' eyes, and thus more than 80%) as he erupts his full potential onto the Emperor and Palpatine takes no damage.




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Conclusion

My chain was not broken in the slightest, and only became stronger.

Apprentice Malgus >~ Dark Council Members ~ Chapter 3 HoT > Novel Revan >> Amnesiac Revan > Star Forge Malak >>> Normal Malak > Exar Kun > Darth Vader >> 1 BBY Vader > An'ya Kuro

An'ya Kuro dies.

@Janix wrote:Wrong. If you read the quote, it is obvious that this is meant to refer to Vader, being in comparison to Kun, looks like a frail and defenseless Nun. Fearsome is clearly relating to power and not appearance, as there is no way that a man made of machines who destroys planets is somehow less fearsome than a dude with an ego problem based off appearance alone.

Except that's precisely what the quote said. "Fearsome," not "powerful."

@Janix wrote:Even outside of the semantic statements of 'fearsome' or the direct comparison of Vader's inferiority, the author clearly states that Exar Kun's power is 'unbelievable' which at minimum puts him beyond Vader whom he mentioned.

Calling one guy's power "unbelievable" is hardly a superiority statement. Exar Kun was the topic at hand, and the writer wanted to hype him up, hence "unbelievable power." There is nothing to suggest that he does not also believe that Vader's power is not "unbelievable."

@Janix wrote:Star Wars Fact File as of 2005 places Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is of course retconned, as Malak is later placed higher than him and so is Sidious. However, Vader is not broken from this chain, being sub-Exar Kun.

Exar Kun's "most powerful Sith" statement is clearly inaccurate, due to various Sith scaling far above. Darth Revan, for example, would be more powerful than Exar Kun as well, according to your own scaling. However, he was created before 2005, and has no statement putting him directly above Exar Kun. He is superior to base Malak, who has a quote above Exar Kun, but he himself does not have a superiority statement. Does that mean that Exar is more powerful than Darth Revan as well?

@Janix wrote:As of Chapter 3, the Hero of Tython's best feat is defeating the Emperor's Voice, which the Wrath does as well while the Voice is empowered even further by a dark-side entity.

The Voice was not being "empowered" by Sel-Makor. He was being taken over. There is a substantial difference. Vitiate and Sel-Makor were fighting each other for control of the body. The Wrath came into conflict with the Voice when Sel-Makor had finally gained control after some time of fighting Vitiate for control. Vitiate wanted the Voice to be defeated and killed by the Wrath.

Besides, if Son of Dathomir is any indication, an entity such as Sel-Makor would by no means inherit Vitiate's skill.

Sidious easily defeated a Talzin-controlled Dooku, even though Dooku would normally have presented at least a challenge. This is confirmed by Sidious himself, who states that Talzin had none of Dooku's skill. Sel-Makor has no reason to have mastered the lightsaber.

All this is backed up by how the defeat of the Voice is treated as having much less importance or challenge than defeating Darth Baras in the campaign, whereas in the Jedi Knight Storyline, the Emperor's Voice is by far the larger threat than the several other  Dark Councilor, Sith Lord (including Angral, who you put ~ Act III HoT, despite him having been beaten by Act I HoT and Kira Carsen (who was solidly inferior to HoT as a combatant)), or even Lord Scourge, who other Dark Councilors (again, who you placed ~ Act III HoT in your scaling) feared. Sajar panicked at the sight of him.

The Voice was being fought over by two entities, one of which actively wanted him to die, the other one with hardly any idea of how to wield a lightsaber.

@Janix wrote:Regardless of this, it is clear the developers think all of the classes are equally as powerful. All of the expansions are equally canonical, thus every class has the same combative power. This is further backed up by the 'Choose Your Side' trailers which have the viewers choose who would win between the canonical classes.

Between force augmentation, precognition, telekinesis, telepathy, and all the other force based abilities that the non force sensitive classes have next to no defense against, their victories over opponents that could gesture any non force sensitive can easily be chalked up to Plot Induced Stupidity. Even if you want to take that route, and won't accept PIS as an excuse, it only makes them equal as of the expansions, not as of the class stories. So one could argue that Chapter IV HoT = Chapter IV Wrath, but the same argument doesn't stand for Chapter III HoT and Chapter III Wrath.

The "Choose Your Side" videos are clearly from a gameplay-based perspective. They refer to the combatants as a Jedi Knight player and a Bounty Hunter player, not as the Jedi Knight and the Bounty Hunter. They state gameplay as strategy. These clips do nothing to demonstrate how the canonical characters would do against each other. Then they ask the audience who they think would win. People can think someone could win even when, in reality, they stand no chance (a good example of this is someone thinking that Return Malgus could beat An'ya Kuro).

The Voice on Voss and the Voice on Dromund Kaas should not be equated, and neither should the Wrath and the Hero.

@Janix wrote:No. There is no indication of time like you imply. In fact, the full quote certainly shows it is as of Return.

While the character of Malgus was the most dangerous Dark Sider Satele had yet experienced, it wasn't necessarily before he was known as "Darth" Malgus that he was. The body that embodies the Dark Side was the same. As for when he was the most dangerous, the time period is not specified, but due to Baras's obvious superiority to Return Malgus, it's almost certainly not referring to that time.

@Janix wrote:She clearly dictates that he would later be Darth Malgus, which shows that her statement of his strength applies to Return as well as she does not imply he grew to that strength in the slightest.

It doesn't need to be implied. It can be safely assumed that such a high potential force user would have progressed significantly over the course of fourteen years.

@Janix wrote:The Hero of Tython is directly compared to Malgus in this quote by the non-biased HK-47. As of False Emperor, the Hero of Tython is weak compared to FE Malgus.

The quote specifically stated that his lightsaber form was weak in comparison. Considering the decades of experience with lightsaber combat that Malgus had on HoT at the time (which Return Malgus would not have), this is not surprising. However, in terms of overall combative ability, Satele is quite clear that Vitiate > FE Malgus.

@Janix wrote:Irrelevant. Power in the Force is clearly not linear. This is shown by Starkiller (who has more potential than Vader in Sidious' eyes, and thus more than 80%) as he erupts his full potential onto the Emperor and Palpatine takes no damage.

That's... not how percentages work. 80% is a proportion. Vader has 8/10 of Palpatine's power. No way around it.

Potential is different from power. The scaling would be:

Palpatine >> Marek's full potential according to Palpatine > Vader's potential > RotJ Vader > TFU Vader (who is not yet 80% of Palpatine)

Hardly concrete proof of Vader being less than 80% of Palpatine, in the face of a numerical statement given by the man with the final say on any matter in Star Wars.

An'ya slaughters.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Except that's precisely what the quote said. "Fearsome," not "powerful."

You are arguing that Exar Kun is only more fearsome appearance-wise, in which case Darth Vader claps with a myriad of quotes saying his appearance is one to be feared.



Thus, the only way for Exar Kun's fearsome quote to make sense is if it is within the realms of power. This is further shown by its use of 'unbelievable power.' Darth Vader's power has already been seen, while Exar Kun, at the time of that statement, was not even released yet. We knew Vader's power, we did not know Exar Kun's power, thus his greater showings would be unbelievable to us.

Exar Kun > Prime Vader

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Exar Kun's "most powerful Sith" statement is clearly inaccurate, due to various Sith scaling far above. Darth Revan, for example, would be more powerful than Exar Kun as well, according to your own scaling. However, he was created before 2005, and has no statement putting him directly above Exar Kun. He is superior to base Malak, who has a quote above Exar Kun, but he himself does not have a superiority statement. Does that mean that Exar is more powerful than Darth Revan as well?

You recognize that Darth Revan scales above Darth Malak who scales above Exar Kun. The only relevant person who does not have a chain that frees them from this Exar Kun superiority statement is Darth Vader. Darth Vader is thus not exempt from this quote, since just because Palpatine is revered as the Strongest Sith later on does not mean that Exar Kun would suddenly be weaker than the fodder he was placed higher than without a definitive chain.

Warb Null, who is stronger than some PT Jedi Masters who are stronger than Vader per Lucas, is far weaker than Exar Kun if you want a more stand-out chain.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Vitiate and Sel-Makor were fighting each other for control of the body. The Wrath came into conflict with the Voice when Sel-Makor had finally gained control after some time of fighting Vitiate for control. Vitiate wanted the Voice to be defeated and killed by the Wrath.

Sel-Makor instantly recognizes he received a huge boost in power from possessing the Voice. Sel-Makor himself was defeated by the Hero of Tython later on, while the Wrath defeated Sel-Makor who was boosted by the Voice. It is clear the Wrath outshines the HoT here.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:All this is backed up by how the defeat of the Voice is treated as having much less importance or challenge than defeating Darth Baras in the campaign

Darth Baras when harnessing 'The Entity's' power becomes powerful enough for the Dark Council to believe he is the Emperor's Voice. The Dark Council is experienced with Vitiate's power to know what the power of one of his Voices would feel like, thus Amped Baras is ~ The Voice.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:The "Choose Your Side" videos are clearly from a gameplay-based perspective. They refer to the combatants as a Jedi Knight player and a Bounty Hunter player, not as the Jedi Knight and the Bounty Hunter.

Sure, except they do refer to them as their lore as well. This is most evident in the Imperial Agent breakdown where they refer to him as Cipher Nine and go into his story. These breakdowns are clearly on a canonical basis as well.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Between force augmentation, precognition, telekinesis, telepathy, and all the other force based abilities that the non force sensitive classes have next to no defense against, their victories over opponents that could gesture any non force sensitive can easily be chalked up to Plot Induced Stupidity.

Funny. The 'Non-Force Sensitive' classes are resistant to the Force. They also kill Jedi and Sith all of the time as casual NPCs. They can also use Force Lightning when playing with Legacy Bonuses. Pretty clear to me that they are definitely of higher force-stock than you make them out to be.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:That's... not how percentages work. 80% is a proportion. Vader has 8/10 of Palpatine's power. No way around it.

I am arguing that 80% of Palpatine is Fodder. For example. 800,000/1,000,000 is still 200,000 points away from being an equal. The greater the amount of power you have, the bigger the gaps become. Darth Vader is Powerful, but he is garbage when most people scale above his 800k mark. As I showed with Starkiller, someone far greater than Suit Vader in potential (Thus far more than 800k) doing no damage to Palpatine with his full potential, 8/10 for Palpatine is nothing.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Sith Lord (including Angral, who you put ~ Act III HoT, despite him having been beaten by Act I HoT and Kira Carsen

Darth Angral basically went out of military retirement to fight the Hero of Tython after the Jedi killed his son, due to his old age and no longer being considered worthy to be apart of the Dark Council, there is no reason to believe that Angral is as strong as his younger counterpart.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:While the character of Malgus was the most dangerous Dark Sider Satele had yet experienced, it wasn't necessarily before he was known as "Darth" Malgus that he was.

"There in the hanger" (As in 'As of Return') "I first encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have experienced" (As in he still was the most dangerous dark side embodiment she has experienced. She just first encountered this 'danger' as of 'Return').

The quote is very clear. He was the most dangerous as of Return as well.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:It doesn't need to be implied. It can be safely assumed that such a high potential force user would have progressed significantly over the course of fourteen years.

Yet Satele fears facing the Malgus she met during 'Return'



Clearly there is no notable growth, since it isn't mentioned and she still fears him equally.



Malgus scales to/above the Dark Council in other ways as of Return as well. He is heralded as the Empire's hero, and is revered as one of the most powerful Sith of the time. He usurps Darth Vengean (A member of the council) during the Great War and becomes the primary leader of the conflict. This is shown additionally on how he was chosen to lead the assault on Korriban, easily the most important planet to the Sith. He defeated armies single-handedly, much like Darth Marr did. Upon Darth Malgus' assumed death, Marr became the most powerful force in the Empire. Clearly, Malgus is a warrior with the power of dark councilors.



Immediately after 'Hope' which was not stronger than 'Return' Malgus by any margin worth noting, Malgus is crushed and forced into cybernetics. As we know with Darth Vader, an ordeal like this impedes one's use of the Force, but despite that, Malgus was still chosen as the warrior to lead the assault on the Jedi Temple fresh out of his cybernetic surgery.
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Conclusion

In short, Apprentice Malgus >~ Dark Councilors ~ Chapter 3 HoT > Novel Revan >> Amnesiac Revan > Star Forge Malak >> Darth Malak > Exar Kun > Darth Vader >> 1 bby Vader > An'ya Kuro

Malgus would slaughter armies of An'ya Kuros.

@Janix wrote:You are arguing that Exar Kun is only more fearsome appearance-wise, in which case Darth Vader claps with a myriad of quotes saying his appearance is one to be feared.

Thus, the only way for Exar Kun's fearsome quote to make sense is if it is within the realms of power. This is further shown by its use of 'unbelievable power.' Darth Vader's power has already been seen, while Exar Kun, at the time of that statement, was not even released yet. We knew Vader's power, we did not know Exar Kun's power, thus his greater showings would be unbelievable to us.

You say that Vader being more "fearsome" than Kun does not work, because Vader has statements contradicting that. But then you claim that, because it being meant in the context of him being more "fearsome" than Vader doesn't work, it must mean that he's more powerful than Vader, which seems like a large leap. Why is it not just a statement that is contradicted by others? You have Kun's "most powerful Sith" accolade as inapplicable to the likes of Sidious and Vitiate, due to conflicting statements. It seems that this statement, if conflicted by Vader's, would simply be meaningless.

If you want to go the route of statements, Vader has several that place him above Spirit Kun.

Death Star (2008 wrote:For the first time he could remember, the dark side had no answer. And a great surge of unfamiliar emotion suddenly washed over him.

Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid.

Kun is also locked below Plagueis, who was surpassed by Sidious even as of TPM.



TPM Sidious was a relative equal to TPM Dooku.



RotS Dooku was defeated by Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, who was surpassed by Vader as of ANH.

Jedi Battles (2013) wrote:This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Kun < Malak << Plagueis < TPM Sidious ~ TPM Dooku < RotS Dooku < RotS Anakin < ANH Vader > 1 BBY Vader >> Kuro

@Janix wrote:You recognize that Darth Revan scales above Darth Malak who scales above Exar Kun. The only relevant person who does not have a chain that frees them from this Exar Kun superiority statement is Darth Vader. Darth Vader is thus not exempt from this quote, since just because Palpatine is revered as the Strongest Sith later on does not mean that Exar Kun would suddenly be weaker than the fodder he was placed higher than without a definitive chain.

Warb Null, who is stronger than some PT Jedi Masters who are stronger than Vader per Lucas, is far weaker than Exar Kun if you want a more stand-out chain.

Vader also scales above Kun, for reasons previously illustrated. So would he not also be exempt from that statement?

As for Vader being weaker than PT Masters, he is only weaker than the very strongest. When it comes to average/above average Masters, Vader is much stronger. Vader has gone toe-to-toe with eight Jedi at once a full twenty-three years before his prime, including no less than five Jedi Masters with enough skill to survive Order 66.

@Janix wrote:Sel-Makor instantly recognizes he received a huge boost in power from possessing the Voice. Sel-Makor himself was defeated by the Hero of Tython later on, while the Wrath defeated Sel-Makor who was boosted by the Voice. It is clear the Wrath outshines the HoT here.

Even though Sel-Makor was boosted, the Voice, being fought over by him and Vitiate, would not be. Also, the HoT never defeated Sel-Makor. HoT only beat Sel-Makor's minions, not Sel-Makor himself, who was beaten by the sacrifice of the Voss, not HoT's combative ability. The Wrath beat the Voice who was being fought over by amped Sel-Makor and Vitiate. The situations aren't comparable.

@Janix wrote:Sure, except they do refer to them as their lore as well. This is most evident in the Imperial Agent breakdown where they refer to him as Cipher Nine and go into his story. These breakdowns are clearly on a canonical basis as well.

Funny. The 'Non-Force Sensitive' classes are resistant to the Force. They also kill Jedi and Sith all of the time as casual NPCs. They can also use Force Lightning when playing with Legacy Bonuses. Pretty clear to me that they are definitely of higher force-stock than you make them out to be.

Still from an out-of-universe gameplay-based perspective. And you haven't addressed the other points I raised (polls not necessarily meaning Lucasfilm believes the characters to be equal).

As for the force lightning stuff, again, gameplay. While they may defeat Jedi and Sith, none are on the same level as the likes of the Voice or Baras, and can usually be attributed to the same reasons of other non-force sensitives beating characters that at first glance would seem above their level (such as Cad going toe-to-toe with Kenobi and Vos at the same time).

@Janix wrote:I am arguing that 80% of Palpatine is Fodder. For example. 800,000/1,000,000 is still 200,000 points away from being an equal. The greater the amount of power you have, the bigger the gaps become. Darth Vader is Powerful, but he is garbage when most people scale above his 800k mark. As I showed with Starkiller, someone far greater than Suit Vader in potential (Thus far more than 800k) doing no damage to Palpatine with his full potential, 8/10 for Palpatine is nothing.

This isn't a tiering system like Gilliard's where it's on a logarithmic scale. The value of the "points" wouldn't change. Vader is 8/10 as powerful as Sidious on a linear metric. Galen may have had greater potential, but he had not yet come close to reaching it, while Vader was about as close as he could get to his potential. Galen's potential could be only marginally more powerful than Suit Vader was in usable power for all we know.

@Janix wrote:Darth Angral basically went out of military retirement to fight the Hero of Tython after the Jedi killed his son, due to his old age and no longer being considered worthy to be apart of the Dark Council, there is no reason to believe that Angral is as strong as his younger counterpart.

Angral was never considered worthy of joining the Dark Council, just a possible contender. All of Angral's impressive feats come from later in his life, where he defeated Orgus and contended with HoT and Kira. Before that, all he had was being above pre-prime Orgus and below pre-Makor Baras. Force users usually continue to become more powerful with age, until a certain point, a point which we have no reason to believe Angral had reached.

@Janix wrote:"There in the hanger" (As in 'As of Return') "I first encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have experienced" (As in he still was the most dangerous dark side embodiment she has experienced. She just first encountered this 'danger' as of 'Return').

The quote is very clear. He was the most dangerous as of Return as well.

Clearly there is no notable growth, since it isn't mentioned and she still fears him equally.

"There in the hangar, I first encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have experienced (Malgus).

There are two quotes. She first met Malgus in the hangar. Malgus was the most dangerous she had experienced. Nothing implies that she meant that he was the most dangerous even in Return.

@Janix wrote:Clearly there is no notable growth, since it isn't mentioned and she still fears him equally.

Assuming a high-potential force user in their twenties would have grown over fourteen years is pretty reasonable.

@Janix wrote:Malgus scales to/above the Dark Council in other ways as of Return as well. He is heralded as the Empire's hero, and is revered as one of the most powerful Sith of the time. He usurps Darth Vengean (A member of the council) during the Great War and becomes the primary leader of the conflict. This is shown additionally on how he was chosen to lead the assault on Korriban, easily the most important planet to the Sith. He defeated armies single-handedly, much like Darth Marr did. Upon Darth Malgus' assumed death, Marr became the most powerful force in the Empire. Clearly, Malgus is a warrior with the power of dark councilors.

Vindican was selected to lead the attack, not Malgus. Nothing else applies to Return Malgus.

@Janix wrote:Immediately after 'Hope' which was not stronger than 'Return' Malgus by any margin worth noting, Malgus is crushed and forced into cybernetics. As we know with Darth Vader, an ordeal like this impedes one's use of the Force, but despite that, Malgus was still chosen as the warrior to lead the assault on the Jedi Temple fresh out of his cybernetic surgery.

Malgus broke some bones and had to wear a respirator. Vader was a quadruple amputee with 3rd and 4th degrees all over his body, and had to wear a full body suit at all times to live.

An'ya eviscerates.

Rebuttal

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:If you want to go the route of statements, Vader has several that place him above Spirit Kun.

Except Luke as of Return of the Jedi is equal to Darth Vader, and a much stronger Luke loses to Spirit Kun.

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body.
He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Kun is also locked below Plagueis, who was surpassed by Sidious even as of TPM.

This is a marketing blurb, the lowest form of S-Canon per Leland Chee (The Star Wars god second to Lucas).



There are higher forms of S-Canon that disagree with the notion that Plagueis is the greatest Sith up to that point, much less greater than Exar Kun. Observe:

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:RotS Dooku was defeated by Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, who was surpassed by Vader as of ANH.

George Lucas, who's words are G-Canon, disagrees entirely. G-Canon is the highest form of canon, and cannot be overwrote by non-G-Canon sources.





Luke and Vader are explicitly below the Jedi in the Prequels (not just the main characters), meanwhile Warb Null's armor, who is vastly below Exar Kun, is capable of defeating a PT Jedi Master, thus putting them both beyond Vader.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:When it comes to average/above average Masters, Vader is much stronger. Vader has gone toe-to-toe with eight Jedi at once a full twenty-three years before his prime, including no less than five Jedi Masters with enough skill to survive Order 66.

The darkness that clouded the era of the Galactic Empire weakened the Jedi extremely, they were vastly below their PT selves, thus Vader's feats against fodder opponents do not reflect on the might of the Clone Wars era.

Janix wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.
-The Last One Standing

As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.
-Star Wars Head-to-Head

In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realises he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because his spirit has been broken by so many Jedi deaths.
-Star Wars: Episode III Visual Dictionary

Eyes closed, Yoda gave himself up to the Force. Yes, there it was — the sense of someone reaching for him. Almost, he succeeded. Something brushed close to Yoda … no, someone, someone who felt familiar. And then, suddenly, shock waves ripped through the Force. Jedi are dying.
-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel

Since most, if not all, of the Jedi were no more, that was all the sweeter, though Vader was convinced that Obi-Wan had remained hidden all these years, as had Yoda, assuming the latter had not finally shuffled off into death. Yoda had been very old, after all, and the defeat and deaths of the Jedi could not have helped him age any easier. He could be dead. But it was unwise to make such assumptions about such a powerful Jedi Master.
-Star Wars: Death Star

Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:This isn't a tiering system like Gilliard's where it's on a logarithmic scale. The value of the "points" wouldn't change. Vader is 8/10 as powerful as Sidious on a linear metric. Galen may have had greater potential, but he had not yet come close to reaching it, while Vader was about as close as he could get to his potential. Galen's potential could be only marginally more powerful than Suit Vader was in usable power for all we know.

That is your assumption, and my proposition has to be the truth based on what we have seen. Galen exploded his full potential onto Sidious, and it did nothing. 8/10 is fodder.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:There are two quotes. She first met Malgus in the hangar. Malgus was the most dangerous she had experienced. Nothing implies that she meant that he was the most dangerous even in Return.

It is one sentence. It most certainly refers to Malgus being the strongest as of Return as well.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Vindican was selected to lead the attack, not Malgus. Nothing else applies to Return Malgus.

...Malgus tanks Vindican's lightning and is obviously superior to him. Vindican << Kao Cen Darach << Malgus per the fight.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Assuming a high-potential force user in their twenties would have grown over fourteen years is pretty reasonable.

Satele fears fighting the Malgus she fought in the Hangar. Being a force-sensitive, and being aware of the happenings of the war, this means she believes that she thinks Apprentice Malgus is capable of the same displays Malgus shows in the Great War.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Angral was never considered worthy of joining the Dark Council, just a possible contender.

To be a contender, one must be worthy, the fact he was no longer considered later in life shows his decline.

Lord Scourge wrote:"Revan, the Exile and I were all Jedi-trained. We all resisted the Emperor. What Sith have done so?"

"That was... a surprise. In three centuries, I expected to see one test his strength against the Dark Lord. But those strong enough to challenge him are killed young, or co-opted into the Dark Council."

Lord Scourge believes those on the Dark Council can challenge the Emperor's Voice just like the Hero of Tython. Apprentice Malgus is already considered one of the strongest Sith of his time, and usurps Darth Vengean in military rule, thus he is clearly on their level.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:If only [Malgus] had good feats

His feats are far greater than An'ya Kuro's, for he stomps Kao Cen Darach.




Kao Cen Darach is a Jedi Battlemaster, placing him as one of the most Dangerous Jedi Masters in the Old Republic Era, this is shown by how he was the Jedi Master stationed on Korriban when the Order sensed a plot of the Sith's return.



The Old Republic Era is far greater than the Knights of the Old Republic Era, which is greater than the Prequel Era.



https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/728103497651716207/826534577710956554/3830902-jedi20swag.png" alt=""/>

This is shown by the Exile being oneshot by Lord Nyriss, who is above a Kreia who could oneshot the KOTOR Jedi Masters.

TOR >>> KOTOR > PT in terms of Averages



Jedi Battlemasters are responsible for teaching combat within the Jedi Temple, thus they are responsible for the prowess within their Era's.



We can derive from this that Cin Drallig, the PT's Battlemaster, is beneath Kao Cen Darach. Cin Drallig is considered more than a match for Greivous by Dooku as of Labrinynth of Evil, who is beneath the Ep.3 Greivous who disarms Kenobi due to his injuries.



Kao Cen Darach is then stomped by Apprentice Malgus, placing him far above most PT Jedi.


https://tenor.com/view/darth-malgus-fighting-star-wars-lightsaber-gif-11791765

This sentiment is reflected in Darth Sidious' writings on Great War Malgus, who claims his battlefield feats are unmatched.



This is not only referring to Deceived, since that is merely one feat. As we established before, Malgus is out of commission from Hope to Decieved, and Hope is not a noticeable step beyond Return Malgus.



Sidious even passed Malgus' writings to Vader so that perhaps the fodder may gain some inspiration.



The author of BOS implies that Malgus is greater than any of Sidious' apprentices.

Conclusion

Apprentice Malgus ~ Dark Council ~< Voice > Novel Revan >> Amnesiac Revan > SF Malak >>> Darth Malak > Exar Kun >> Warb Null > PT Jedi >> Vader >> 1 bby Vader > An'ya Kuro

Apprentice Malgus >> Kao Cen Darach >> Cin Drallig > Greivous > Most PT Jedi >> Vader >> 1 bby Vader > An'ya Kuro

An'ya Kuro dies a million deaths.

@Janix wrote:George Lucas, who's words are G-Canon, disagrees entirely. G-Canon is the highest form of canon, and cannot be overwrote by non-G-Canon sources.

Lucas has also stated that Darth Vader is 80% of Palpatine, coming into conflict with his earlier statements. Lucas's more current opinion is more reliable. This view is further validated by the majority of EU material.

@Janix wrote:Luke and Vader are explicitly below the Jedi in the Prequels (not just the main characters), meanwhile Warb Null's armor, who is vastly below Exar Kun, is capable of defeating a PT Jedi Master, thus putting them both beyond Vader.

A PT force user in Null's armor killed a Jedi Master, not Warb Null himself.

@Janix wrote:The darkness that clouded the era of the Galactic Empire weakened the Jedi extremely, they were vastly below their PT selves, thus Vader's feats against fodder opponents do not reflect on the might of the Clone Wars era.

There's nothing to suggest that the dip was for every Jedi.

@Janix wrote:It is one sentence. It most certainly refers to Malgus being the strongest as of Return as well.

Nothing in that quote specifies that Return Malgus is the most dangerous presence, only "Malgus."

@Janix wrote:...Malgus tanks Vindican's lightning and is obviously superior to him. Vindican << Kao Cen Darach << Malgus per the fight.

A bolt of Vindican's lightning, mostly absorbed by Kao's saber, staggered Malgus. Malgus only ever beat Kao Cen Darach when clearly infuriated, and Kao was exhausted after fighting both Sith for a significant period of time.

@Janix wrote:To be a contender, one must be worthy, the fact he was no longer considered later in life shows his decline.

Consideration does not make him worthy, only potentially worthy.

@Janix wrote:Satele fears fighting the Malgus she fought in the Hangar. Being a force-sensitive, and being aware of the happenings of the war, this means she believes that she thinks Apprentice Malgus is capable of the same displays Malgus shows in the Great War.

Absolutely nothing suggests that she thinks Hope Malgus and Return Malgus to be on the same level.

@Janix wrote:Lord Scourge believes those on the Dark Council can challenge the Emperor's Voice just like the Hero of Tython. Apprentice Malgus is already considered one of the strongest Sith of his time, and usurps Darth Vengean in military rule, thus he is clearly on their level.

Malgus usurps Vengean, just not Return Malgus, who is in the debate.

All of the "Power of Malgus" segment of the post, aside from the contrived battlemaster scaling segment, does not apply to Return Malgus.

Vader is definitively more powerful than Return Malgus, and by extension, so is Kuro.

Conclusion

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Lucas has also stated that Darth Vader is 80% of Palpatine, coming into conflict with his earlier statements. Lucas's more current opinion is more reliable. This view is further validated by the majority of EU material.

I already have proven why 8/10 is nothing, and one of the quotes provided was more recent then the 8/10 of Palpatine quote.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:A PT force user in Null's armor killed a Jedi Master, not Warb Null himself.

The armor granted its users all of its power, I do not see the point in it not being an equivalence. The armor made the fodder above a PT Master.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Malgus only ever beat Kao Cen Darach when clearly infuriated, and Kao was exhausted after fighting both Sith for a significant period of time.

A sigh before recomposing himself completely is what happened, Kao is still a stomp gap below Malgus.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Nothing in that quote specifies that Return Malgus is the most dangerous presence, only "Malgus."

Still denying it? 'Hangar Malgus' means Return!Malgus. Read the quote. She literally says 'In the Hangar.' It applies to Return.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Consideration does not make him worthy, only potentially worthy.

Force-Users can sense the abilities of one another. If he is considered for DC, he has the power for it. Malgus is above him.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:There's nothing to suggest that the dip was for every Jedi.

If it makes Yoda sub-PT, then the dip certainly would make every other PT Jedi fodder as well.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:Absolutely nothing suggests that she thinks Hope Malgus and Return Malgus to be on the same level.

There is no noteworthy difference between them, and Satele fears Return Malgus all the same.

Darth Durin's Baneling wrote:All of the "Power of Malgus" segment of the post, aside from the contrived battlemaster scaling segment, does not apply to Return Malgus.

It does as I showed earlier. The Battlemaster is the teacher, and is thus reflective of the era. TOR >>> PT in terms of averages, of which Vader already loses to.

Summary

You failed to disprove my scaling, and I tore apart yours. George Lucas ensured that your ludicrous Anakin < Vader scaling was as easy to tear down as it was. You have no argument that has not been destroyed. This debate shows Malgus scales so far beyond An'ya Kuro that it is laughable. Good debate, had lots of fun and I feel like I improved!

Alright, I’ll keep this short since this is already coming pretty late. If you have anymore specific questions relating to the debate then shoot me a PM on discord and I’ll be happy to discuss.

This debate at its core, was essentially a “who’s core argument isn’t gonna get torn up the most?” Neither debaters did a great job with defending their arguments. I didn’t walk away feeling like the scaling that either debater presented stood, however, I do feel like one of these debaters’ arguments weren’t debunked quite to the extent that the other debaters’ arguments were. This would have to be Janix. While a couple of points that Janix’s arguments were dependent on (namely his reasoning for why Kun > Vader) weren’t defended well, atleast a couple of his other points withstood, or atleast withstood to a greater extent than Durin’s arguments did, which were honestly negligible. Janix ripped through all of Durin’s arguments, Durin ripped through only a portion of Janix’s arguments. @Janix gets my vote.

This was a debate purely about scalings: Vader supremacy and Malgus supremacy

 Vader supremacy had two attempts; first was Vader being 80% of Sidious, and that An'ya was less inferior to the latter than Malgus was. Janix explained how 80% don't show exactly how big the gap is, although i would've liked to see Janix explain why we see Starkiller's full potential against Sid. The other was that Vader scaled above ROTS anakin which didn't really pan out at all. 

Malgus supremacy was not really flawless either, and had a number of weak links. But I do not think that Durin's arguments properly exposed those weaknesses, and therefore the chain stood, which means I also give @Janix my vote. 

If either have questions about what they can do better/what was good, you can pm me on SI or Discord