Stomper Showdown R2 #8 - Antares Draco (Informal Geek) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

---

Character Count: 2172
Why do I think Jacen beats Draco?

Jacen is from a powerful era and he fought in a war that was possibly the greatest challenge the Jedi ever faced. A war that changed the known galaxy. One of, if not the most bloody wars ever. And Jacen was on the front lines much of the time. He was a key player. He was described by Luke to be the turning point of the war after his return from captivity.

"It's the turning point." The words fell from his lips without volition. And even as he spoke, he came to the realization that he didn't know the place, amid all the great stars of the universe, from whence the words had come.
--
Tears stung Luke's eyes. The turning point, he thought. Yes. From this point, we turn from sorrow toward joy.

-Destiny's Way

Jacen also has a wider range of abilities than Draco that would give him the edge in a fight:

He was proficient in the Art of the Small. Using it to great effect in his fight with Onimi (not counting this example due to him being in a state of Oneness at the time) and afterwards when he healed Luke, who was bitten Shimrra's amphistaff. The latter feat being more impressive when considering that Shimrra's amphistaff, the Scepter of Power was the king of amphistaffs. Not only did it control other amphistaffs, but it was also bigger and stronger. Which would mean its venom is probably more potent than that of normal amphistaffs. And Jacen healed this wound with just his and Mara's tears.

"Shimrra's amphistaff," Mara said anxiously.
Jacen looked up at her and nodded.
"I saw him get stabbed."
Mara pressed her hands to her eyes and began to cry. Jacen took her tear-moistened hands in his and brought them to Luke's chest wound. He held them there for a long moment, removing his hands only once, to convey some of his own tears to Luke's wound. Luke's chest heaved as he took a sharp inhalation, and his eyelids fluttered open. Sobbing openly, Mara laid her head on his chest, and slowly Luke's left hand rose to caress her red-gold hair.
"I'll live, my love," he said weakly.

-The Unifying Force

He was also able to use electric judgment. It was potent enough to throw a Vong soldier back and to incapacitate the whole group

And then he remembered the power he could call upon, the power fueled by the kind of despair and anger he felt now and had felt before, and he hurled it at the warrior, the brilliant emerald fire that lanced from his fingertips.
The Force lightning threw the first rank of Yuuzhan Vong back into their comrades, and in the confusion Jacen launched another blaze of fire. He hadn’t killed them—the murderous form of lightning was a dark side weapon—but they wouldn’t be waking for a long time.

-Destiny's Way

Jacen defeated Tsavong Lah. A Yuuzhan Vong warmaster second in rank only to Shimrra. All well before his prime in NJO

(NJO Sourcebook)

Jacen killed countless Vong warriors, shapers, and fellow slaves with the Vong's own amphistaffs in a revolt during his captivity with the Vong. His kill count possibly numbering in the hundreds. All this while he was cut off from the force. And this was still a good 2 years pre TUF

Jacen slogged grimly on, half swimming, without a glance at the slaves who defended him. Any warrior or attacking slave in his path fell to lightning slashes and stabs of the amphistaffs he wielded in both hands.
He didn't even bother to wipe from his eyes the blood that flowed from a deep scalp wound. All he did was walk, and kill. He turned toward the center of the lake.
Toward the hive-island.
And kept walking.
--
He had fought his way to the island in something like the battle frenzy of a Yuuzhan Vong warrior, where pain and injury were as irrelevant as the color of the sky; he had taken lives of warriors and crazed shapers, perhaps of the very slaves he was fighting to save...

He looked down at the beach. Beside the shaper he had killed lay another corpse. It looked human. He didn't know, couldn't know, if that had been one of the masqued warriors. He'd never know. The only truth he had was that this corpse had once been a person who had stood against him with violence. A warrior? Or a slave--innocent, driven to attack Jacen against his will, helplessly maddened by the lash of seed-web agony? Why did he feel like it didn't matter? That feeling scared him more than dying did. If that's who I've become, maybe it's right that I should die here. Before he killed anyone else. But each time the two slaves covering him, the ones trying to hold back the crush of slaves pressing up the beach, hacked into somebody's side or leg or head with a hard-swung spade ray, he felt those wounds, too.

Already, the inflowing tide of slaves had swamped the warriors guarding the hive-island; it would be only a matter of moments before the dhuryams turned their slaves against each other in a savage winner-take-all bloodbath. Dozens, maybe hundreds of slaves had been driven to their deaths already, thrown recklessly against the lethal ring of warriors.

-Traitor

Jacen was a much larger player during one of the most trying and dangerous conflicts in galactic history in one of the most powerful eras. He has a vast set of skills and force abilities to call on. He has a potent connection to the force inherent to his bloodline. And his understanding of the force and relationship with it is unlike most others. He has insane feats to back up his hype. Draco isn't to be scoffed at, but he's outclassed by Jacen and has much less impressive feats.

In the responses to come, I'll go through more feats and make more comparisons between the characters and eras.

All of those are fair points, Jacen is an exceptional combatant. I’d expect nothing less from a skywalker.

Draco however has a lot going for him, from skill, to durability, to even the fact his skill set is to some degree specially crafted to defeat force users.

As an immediate note he is captain of the Imperial Knights, an organization noted to be the most elite in the Fel Empire and to be above even Jedi in skill. With Draco being the most elite of the order
“The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous Force-users in the galaxy. Skilled in combat…”
-Legacy Campaign Guide

“The highest-ranking member of the Imperial Knights, Antares Draco is a powerful Force-user whose dedication to Roan Fel is second to none."
-Legacy Guide


Confident in his own abilities enough that he was willing to take on emperor Fel himself, who he seems to be equal to if only slightly behind  (a skywalker descendent)



You note Jacen as having a wider range of abilities, and while this may be true to some degree, Draco at the same time holds combative abilities entirely unknown to Jacen. Created from the hundred years of combat evolution between the two. Including his knowledge of the traditional forms and his knowledge of the the newer imperial knight fighting styles, and while these styles are mainly for group fights they are still moves and combat styles totally foreign to Jacen.

“Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork than one's individual prowess.”
-campaign guide

On top of this Draco is heavily skilled in the use of his cortosis gauntlet, an item that if Jacen is unaware of could entirely remove his saber from play. Doesn’t matter how good he is with a blade if it’s removed from him.  And Draco like all knights is skilled in the items use, and is facing an opponent who unlike the One Sith and Jedi of the Legacy era, has no knowledge of the cortosis gauntlets existence at all.

“When fighting other lightsaber-wielding Force-users, Imperial Knights attempt to use their cortosis gauntlets to deactivate their enemies' weapons for a few minutes."
-threats of the galaxy


Only helped by there high defensive armor, which itself is noted to be based on Vader’s own armor design. Which we know was extremely durable, damage resistant, and even had the capacity to limit the impact damage of lightsaber strikes
-Campaign Guide

On top of this we see Draco manage to fight through and kill large groups of sith, including sith strike teams, invasion forces, and the Korriban guard (who would be amped by the worlds dark side aura).









A

And while the general focus of imperial knights is martial skills, notably more so than Jedi, they aren’t slouches in the force department. With Draco having tremendous reserves of strength and force amping, he also demonstrates on numerous occasions the ability to toss opponents around, including trained Jedi and sith warriors, and even his fellow imperial knights.

“The Imperial Knights devote as much attention to fighting barehanded, in vehicles, and with the Force as they do to fighting with lightsabers."
-Campaign Guide

Forgot to add this
Character count: 2803

Informal_Geek wrote:Draco however has a lot going for him, from skill, to durability, to even the fact his skill set is to some degree specially crafted to defeat force users.

To address the durability part, Jacen waaaaaay outclasses Draco here. It's one of his main things as a character: pain resistance and durability. Hell, he's able to draw strength from pain as well as the greatest Vong warriors. His durability is so great he matches the greatest of warriors from a masochistic culture. And remember, this was while he was cut off from the force too. Which only speaks to how great his endurance and durability is.

"The import of the Embrace chamber's data is exactly this: Jacen Solo has become capable of not only accepting torment, but thriving on it. As the warmaster will recall, I predicted such a result. He has discovered resources within himself of the sort that we find only in our greatest warriors."
-Traitor

---

Informal_Geek wrote:You note Jacen as having a wider range of abilities, and while this may be true to some degree, Draco at the same time holds combative abilities entirely unknown to Jacen. Created from the hundred years of combat evolution between the two. Including his knowledge of the traditional forms and his knowledge of the the newer imperial knight fighting styles, and while these styles are mainly for group fights they are still moves and combat styles totally foreign to Jacen.

Informal_Geek wrote:Only helped by there high defensive armor, which itself is noted to be based on Vader’s own armor design. Which we know was extremely durable, damage resistant, and even had the capacity to limit the impact damage of lightsaber strikes
-Campaign Guide

To address this: First off, Jacen is no stranger to foreign and unknown fighting styles. Second off (and this will also address the Vader like armor point), he regularly fought and killed Vong warriors who can compete with lightsabers. And that's just the normal rank and file. He, along with Luke and Jaina also killed 15 Yuuzhan Vong Slayers. They were Shimrra's elite guard, specifically bred to fight and move like Jedi. Well above normal warriors. As if that's not enough, they also have lightsaber resistant skin. Draco's armor isn't giving him any advantage considering Jacen's usual opponents during NJO had both weapons and armor to counter lightsabers.

Moving directly to one of the slayers, Qelah Kwaad ignited the lightsaber, raised it to her opposite shoulder, and, with a slashing motion, drew the violet blade diagonally across the slayer's chest. The smell of burned flesh wafted through the hall. Shimrra turned slightly to face the commanders.

"Only a furrow where any one of you would lie in two pieces on the floor."
-TUF

-Essential Guide to Warfare

---

Informal_Geek wrote:On top of this Draco is heavily skilled in the use of his cortosis gauntlet, an item that if Jacen is unaware of could entirely remove his saber from play. Doesn’t matter how good he is with a blade if it’s removed from him.  And Draco like all knights is skilled in the items use, and is facing an opponent who unlike the One Sith and Jedi of the Legacy era, has no knowledge of the cortosis gauntlets existence at all.

A couple things to address here: First off, Jacen, being the naturally empathic person he is, won't really have any problems discerning Draco's intention of using the cortosis gauntlet. So it's not likely he'll be duped that easily. Cortosis isn't a material Jacen would be unfamiliar with, I doubt he'd find it hard to discern that's what it is especially since I can see Draco trying to bait him into hitting the Cortosis.
BUT, even if Draco catches him unaware, it's hardly a trump card. Since I'd argue that even without a lightsaber, Jacen isn't defenseless. He had a very potent aptitude for Tutaminis, he caught blaster bolts from around 50 or so individuals effortlessly. Even IF they didn't all have blasters, that's still a crazy amount:

"But the others..." There had been other people in the belly of the beast: a lot of people, fifty or more, nearly all human.
--
the cavern-beast people had closed in around him, blasters leveled, coldly murderous while faking regret, he might still have resisted his dark lust to do them harm.
--
"I knew what I was doing; I knew exactly what it meant. I reached into the dark. I wanted it. I reveled in it. I remember laughing. I remember telling them how much trouble they were in. I remember feeling them through the Force as their fake regret turned to real fear. I remember liking it." They had fired on him, blaster bolts streaking scarlet through the greenish acid-fog. Laughing, Jacen had caught their blaster bolts with the palm of his right hand, effortlessly channeling away the destructive energies before they could do him harm.

Flicks of his wrist had seized those blasters with the Force and tossed them negligently aside.
-Traitor

I would like to add as a note that the above happened very soon after he reconnected with the force. After months of being cut off. AND while he was still under mental turmoil. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that he could potentially deflect some lightsaber strikes bare handed. And Draco would have never faced anyone who could do that. And on top of the surprise factor there, Jacen has other abilities to apply there without a lightsaber.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:On top of this we see Draco manage to fight through and kill large groups of sith, including sith strike teams, invasion forces, and the Korriban guard (who would be amped by the worlds dark side aura).

While nothing to scoff at, I don't see how that's super impressive. As Legacy Sith aren't shown to be super potent outside of a few. While it does show Draco's dueling prowess, it's nothing Jacen can't match or outclass

---

Informal_Geek wrote:And while the general focus of imperial knights is martial skills, notably more so than Jedi, they aren’t slouches in the force department. With Draco having tremendous reserves of strength and force amping, he also demonstrates on numerous occasions the ability to toss opponents around, including trained Jedi and sith warriors, and even his fellow imperial knights.

Informal_Geek wrote:“The Imperial Knights devote as much attention to fighting barehanded, in vehicles, and with the Force as they do to fighting with lightsabers."
-Campaign Guide

To address these points, I don't think they're more impressive than anything Jacen's done.

Jacen dominates Ganner Rhysode in TK. (Note that Ganner was about to fall into unconsciousness in the first quote, but that hardly disproves my point because he outright declares inferiority in the second one):

With a final convulsion of his will, Ganner reached out through the Force and seized his lightsaber, lifting it with his mind, squeezing its activation plate to snap the blade to sizzling life. One of the warriors barked a warning in their guttural tongue. Jacen gestured, and Ganner felt a stronger mind than his take hold of the lightsaber and wrench it from his control. The lightsaber's blade vanished. The handgrip bobbed gently in the air between Jacen and the warriors.
--
"I know you're stronger now, Jacen--stronger than I've ever been. I felt it on the camp ship. I know you can kill me if you want. But I can make you kill me here."
-Traitor

The above is more impressive given Ganner's potency with TK:

Ganner laughed. "You think they could stop us?" Illustrating his point, he flicked a finger upward, and the two young men suddenly pointed their blasters at the sky. They struggled to bring them back down on target, then clung to the weapons as Ganner lifted the youths off the ground and left them with their feet dangling in the air.
-Dark Tide 1

By the time Anakin and his three companions penetrated the hedge, the rst wave had already cut through the grashal wall. Tenel Ka, Zekk, and Alema pressed themselves against the block and rode along as Ganner used the Force to shove the monolith inside.
-SBS

-NJO Sourcebook

---

Let's do some scaling and chaining too:
Going back to my point on eras, I hold Jacen above Cade. Not only is he from a more important era and played a bigger role in shaping galactic history, he also just outperforms Cade feats wise. None of Cade's showings are as impressive. And of course, it's only natural that the Skywalker bloodline loses some potency throughout the years. Cade isn't a weakling, but he's sub Jacen.

And remember: Cade casually tosses Draco and one of his bois aside:

-Legacy

---

To close off this response, understand that Jacen is pre prime in all of my above points. After his fight with Onimi, Leia observes an extra growth within Jacen. So even IF Draco comes close to competing with Jacen in any of my points, remember that Jacen surpasses even that.

In the center of the bridge Jacen stood like a pillar of blinding light, feet planted, arms at his sides, chin lifted. The dazzling light seemed to spin outward from his midsection and surround him like an aura. His face was almost frighteningly serene, and perhaps a touch sad. The pupils of his eyes were like rising suns. He seemed to age five years— features maturing, complexion softening, body elongating—as Leia watched breathlessly.
What youth might have remained in her son vanished.
-TUF

So here's my chain:

Balance Point Jacen (who defeated Tsavong Lah)<<<<<>Cade Skywalker>Antares Draco

So my chain isn't uploading properly so here it is in image form (Hope this is okay):

Ok so to start, while I can’t demonstrate Draco as more pain resistant than Jaden necessarily, Draco withstands intense torture by the sith for days. All while on Korriban itself, which would only further cloud his ability to combat the torture. Yet even in that state physical torture never once broke him and it took the use of illusion after illusion to finally get to him, illusions that atleast at first he still saw through. All of this torture was also headed by someone who knew Draco personally and thus had an advantage. Plus any durability gap will be covered by the heavy duty phrink reinforced armor Draco is clad in and especially trained in.




You mention Vong armor as being akin to imperial knight armor, while true in many respects Vong armor is just worse, it’s only real advantage being it’s natural spikes, it suffers from issues of being a living organic organism, while imperial knight armor lacks this weakness all together. On top of Phrik and Cortosis being stronger than Vong armor.
Looking at Vader as our example we see him take devastating blows that do little to nothing to his armor, even in ESB we see Vader take a direct strike from Luke and be relatively fine, and imperial knight armor is a flat improvement over Vader’s armor, with the Phrik reinforcing and the lack of clunk life support systems.

“The chosen armor of the Imperial Knights is modeled after the armor worn by Darth Vader during the Galactic Civil War. However, unlike Darth Vader's armor, the Imperial Knight armor is not designed to provide light support to the wearer. Additionally, the armor has small threads of phrik filaments throughout the armor. . ."
-Legacy campaign guide

Following this you made the claim that Jacen could sense Draco’s actions, Jacen actually isn’t that familiar with cortosis. He’d probably know what it is but he doesn’t deal with it hardly ever throughout his career. And at the same time Draco isn’t going to taunt him into striking, he’s never once shown to do that even at his most heated, no imperial knight is.
Here is a case example of the gauntlet in use





Emperor Fel in the heat of combat in about a split second managed to use the gauntlet to strike the saber. And may I note Antares isn’t far behind Fel at all given he killed him.

Now next you make an extraordinary claim, the idea that Jacen based solely on catching blaster shots was capable of lightsaber deflection. This isn’t substantiated at all, lots of Jedi and sith have been shown deflecting blaster shots with tutaminis, Kenobi, Vader, but none of them were capable of saber deflection. And Jacen is never shown to be able to use that ability. Plus even if he was able to do that, Draco is also a master of hand to hand combat.

Following this you say “Legacy Sith aren’t shown to be super potent outside of a few”, which is very untrue, one thing to keep in mind is the vast majority of fights in legacy are the top tier of each order. We only get a good view of normal sith a few times, and they aren’t by any means bad. Sith are extremely skilled, we see at the very beginning of Legacy a team of 4 fairly skilled Jedi, Vao and Wolf being two of the best Jedi in the order at the time, plus two others (one of whole is of a potent Jedi family) who Wolf chose specifically to hunt down Cade. The group is caught totally unaware by a sith assassin team who managed to bypass the Jedis force sense (jedi are very on guard) and in a matter of moments killed one Jedi from hiding and blitzed another, with only Wolf and Vao managing to fight off the team.





On top of this sith if the era are noted to fairly regularly kill there masters to earn the title of lord, with combat also being key to earning the sith tattoos. And sith of the era are directly said to be fully immersed in the dark side.


-Legacy campaign guide


-Legacy #0


-Legacy #0

And Draco manages to fight off upwards of a dozen Korriban guards, all boosted, before going down. There is a reason the other treat this as a suicide attempt.




While Jacens TK feat is impressive, and I’ll even go so far as to agree he’s probably more proficient than Draco who is shown to be more martial, Draco is still noted as equally skilled with the force even if it isn’t his immediate go to all the time

"The Imperial Knights devote as much attention to fighting barehanded, in vehicles, and with the Force as they do to fighting with lightsabers."
-legacy campaign guide

Now here’s where we reach some disagreement, while I agree the bloodline fading is a distinct possibility, based on every we see, however brief, of Kol and the sheer amount of hype he’s given even by people who are much older and experienced says a lot. But more importantly is the academy feat you posted, Draco and Krieg aren’t trying to fight Cade there. They’re specifically trying to not fight and earn the Jedi as allies. Krieg right before isn’t even looking at Cade. And while we don’t see Draco post push there, Krieg is back on his feet almost instantly.

As for your final chain It’s kinda entirely based on mental math. We have no way of placing Cade precisely below Jacen. Especially given Cade faced and defeated a prime Darth Krayt.

Character Count: 4242

Informal_Geek wrote:Plus any durability gap will be covered by the heavy duty phrink reinforced armor Draco is clad in and especially trained in.

It's not as if many kills in Jacen's career were against highly skilled foes with lightsaber resistant armor that had few weak points........ oh wait.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:You mention Vong armor as being akin to imperial knight armor, while true in many respects Vong armor is just worse, it’s only real advantage being it’s natural spikes, it suffers from issues of being a living organic organism, while imperial knight armor lacks this weakness all together. On top of Phrik and Cortosis being stronger than Vong armor.

Informal_Geek wrote:Looking at Vader as our example we see him take devastating blows that do little to nothing to his armor, even in ESB we see Vader take a direct strike from Luke and be relatively fine, and imperial knight armor is a flat improvement over Vader’s armor, with the Phrik reinforcing and the lack of clunk life support systems.

Alright. That's fair enough. Normal Vong warrior armor may be a bit below Imperial Knight armor, but guess what? Jacen along with Luke and Jaina killed 15 Yuuzhan Vong slayers. In an unstable environment at that. And as I've already shown, they're super resistant to lightsaber strikes. To the point where a strike that would have bisected anyone else, was just a small furrow against them. And that's not just armor, it's basically their skin. It covers a lot more than normal Voduun Crabs do and more than Imperial Knight armor does. That makes Jacen more than a match against Imperial Knight armor.
That isn't impressive enough for you?

"Two against eleven," Chaan said in sudden consternation. "This is vulgar. Dishonor either way!"

Shimrra returned to his throne and sat.

"Then we will be pleased to see you humble them, if only to demonstrate that our shapers have failed in their task. Carve them, Commander, as a dish fit for the gods!" Chaan saluted crisply. At his curt nod, the ten warriors attacked, two groups of four moving to outflank their opponents, and the remaining two rushing forward immediately to engage and distract. The reactions of the warrior-priests were almost too fast to follow. They turned slightly to the side, almost back to back, wielding weapons in both hands, meeting the frontal attack and the flanking attacks simultaneously. The amphistaffs of the attackers struck seemingly unarmored flesh without finding purchase. Coufees cut and sliced, and yet almost no blood flowed; what little did, congealed instantly.

The melee weapons of the defenders were no less enhanced than were the small, muscular warrior-priests who wielded them. The specially bred amphistaffs snapped the heads off their lesser cousins, and stabbed with enough force to paralyze, even through armor. The slayers-Shimrra's Jeedai-leapt to great heights, twisting in midflight and landing behind their attackers, then rushed in, arms windmilling in a blur, gouts of black blood flying in all directions.

One by one and sliced to pieces, Chaan's warriors dropped to the floor. Silence gripped the hall as the elite of all castes watched with a mix of awe and dread. Shimrra was already powerful enough without this royal guard. Now he was no match for any domain that might think to thwart him. The fight was over almost as quickly as it began, with the ten warriors-and Chaan-felled and bleeding, and the two warrior-priests unmoved by what they had done, their slender amphistaffs badged with blood.
-TUF

The Slayers also had stronger amphistaffs and a crazy healing factor. Their amphistaffs cut through Vonduun crab armor, which we already established as being lightsaber resistant. Not to mention their crazy speed atop of that. They beat 1-6 odds easily. I think it's more than fair to say Draco's armor ain't saving him here. Nor will it be anywhere close to a deciding factor. No Phrik-ing way Imperial Knight Armor>Slayers

---

Informal_Geek wrote:And may I note Antares isn’t far behind Fel at all given he killed him.

I call that into question. Fel slapped him aside and only got killed by a cheapshot when he turned away. The gap isn't as small as you imply

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this you made the claim that Jacen could sense Draco’s actions, Jacen actually isn’t that familiar with cortosis. He’d probably know what it is but he doesn’t deal with it hardly ever throughout his career. And at the same time Draco isn’t going to taunt him into striking, he’s never once shown to do that even at his most heated, no imperial knight is.

Informal_Geek wrote:Now next you make an extraordinary claim, the idea that Jacen based solely on catching blaster shots was capable of lightsaber deflection. This isn’t substantiated at all, lots of Jedi and sith have been shown deflecting blaster shots with tutaminis, Kenobi, Vader, but none of them were capable of saber deflection. And Jacen is never shown to be able to use that ability. Plus even if he was able to do that, Draco is also a master of hand to hand combat.

Not really. Lightsaber and blaster energy are pretty much the same. There is nothing to say that a force user proficient enough in tutaminis can't parry a lightsaber strike with their hands. And given Jacen's feat, I see no reason why it's not possible

(Jedi vs Sith)

Ganner nodded and extended the lightsaber.

Corran could feel the buzz of it against his flesh as he slowly raised his arm. The blade's heat vaporized hairs, filling the area with the stink of singed protein. Corran knew that scent was nothing compared to what would follow. He swallowed, once, hard, then flattened his hand and raised his arm another centimeter.

Silver agony flashed right up his arm and into his brain. By reflex he started to use a Jedi technique to shunt the pain away, but then stopped himself. He concentrated, soaking in the energy of the blade. He looked out through slitted eyelids and saw his flesh reddening, then beginning to blister. Smoke rose from it, and the pain built. Then, as he saw the first hint of charring, he latched onto the Force and poured the torment out and into the students.

One second, two, three. Corran let the burning sharpness flow through him and into Vil and Denna. They twitched while he trembled. They shrieked while his flesh crackled. His clenched jaw ground his teeth together, and he tasted blood.

The racks slackened, dropping each student half a meter toward the floor. The restraining straps snapped taut, all glossy and black like wet leather. Corran ignited his own lightsaber and whipped the blade around, severing each strap, then he dropped to his knees and fell over Vil's prostrate form.
-Dark Tide 2

I reached out with my right hand and blocked the bolt, sucking as much of the energy in as I could. The shot stung, sending a jolt up my arm, but I shunted the pain aside and funneled the spare energy into telekinesis. I closed my right hand into a fist, then pulled. I wrenched the blaster from his hand, snapping a couple of fingers as I went, then tossed it high onto a roof.
-I, Jedi

As you can see, Corran Horn is able to block and absorb blaster bolts with his hand AND he was able to absorb a lightsaber blade. Keep in mind, he was trying to slightly hurt himself. So just parrying should be no problem at all. And given Jacen's amazing feat with tutaminis, arguably comparable to the tutaminis master himself, it's not stretch to say that he can almost certainly parry a lightsaber strike or two. As Jacen said in TUF, he doesn't need a lightsaber, he can be the lightsaber. Unlike Draco, Jacen doesn't need his equipment to carry him. The cortosis gauntlet is nowhere near a trump card

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this you say “Legacy Sith aren’t shown to be super potent outside of a few”, which is very untrue, one thing to keep in mind is the vast majority of fights in legacy are the top tier of each order. We only get a good view of normal sith a few times, and they aren’t by any means bad. Sith are extremely skilled, we see at the very beginning of Legacy a team of 4 fairly skilled Jedi, Vao and Wolf being two of the best Jedi in the order at the time, plus two others (one of whole is of a potent Jedi family) who Wolf chose specifically to hunt down Cade. The group is caught totally unaware by a sith assassin team who managed to bypass the Jedis force sense (jedi are very on guard) and in a matter of moments killed one Jedi from hiding and blitzed another, with only Wolf and Vao managing to fight off the team.

This doesn't exactly help your case. Some rando Sith took out some rando Jedi. Doesn't mean much. Even if they are from a potent family, results speak for themselves. And on that note, those Sith are sub Shado. And Shado is sub Cade seeing as how he got dominated by him.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:On top of this sith if the era are noted to fairly regularly kill there masters to earn the title of lord, with combat also being key to earning the sith tattoos. And sith of the era are directly said to be fully immersed in the dark side.

On this point: Fairly regularly? The scan you posted literally says "sometimes"

This is a purely semantic thing but I still think I should address.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Draco and Krieg aren’t trying to fight Cade there. They’re specifically trying to not fight and earn the Jedi as allies. Krieg right before isn’t even looking at Cade. And while we don’t see Draco post push there, Krieg is back on his feet almost instantly.

They absolutely were trying to fight Cade and the rest. Yeah they were there to ally with the Jedi but Draco literally says "Defend her Imperial Majesty" and we know they're loyal till the death for majesties. This scuffle wasn't play. They were fighting. And above all that, it hardly helps Draco's case either to be casually TK rekt in a small skirmish. I see no reason why Draco isn't < Cade.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:As for your final chain It’s kinda entirely based on mental math. We have no way of placing Cade precisely below Jacen. Especially given Cade faced and defeated a prime Darth Krayt.

Alright. How bout this? Cade struggles with one Vong warrior. Even getting to the point where he's knocked down. Even with this being a very earlier on Cade, this fight is far below any of Jacen's fights with Vong warriors

Jacen blocked the swing of a club, spun about to bring his lightsaber in line to block a strike from the other side, and in the middle of the turn, snapped the lightsaber back, quickly and briefly, to intercept yet another thud bug.

Then he did make the block, and countered with a roll-and-thrust maneuver that sent the alien attacker leaping backward.

But another moved in to block, and Jacen couldn't finish the move. And he had to turn back anyway, spinning fast to pick off two attacks, one up high, one down low, coming at him in superb coordination. He ducked, purely on instinct, and the next thud bug shot over his head - or almost over, for Jacen's weapon tip shot up, skewering the thing even as it passed.

A series of several sharp twists and cuts picked off three more attacks from three different opponents.

A brilliant defense, but Jacen was working wildly and was making little ground against his enemies. These warriors were skilled; Jacen might be able to beat any of them one against one. Maybe, and maybe, with luck, he could defeat two.

But not four. No way.

He continued to spin and to slice, to fight completely defensively because to do otherwise, even within the grasp of the Force, would be to die. He chopped one club aside hard, then spun, expecting an attack from the other side.
-Vector Prime

This is one of Jacen's first fights with a Vong warrior and already he manages better than Cade

The warrior staggered backward and Jacen pounced, swinging again, landing solidly, buckling the warrior's knees. Jacen spun the knapsack overhand to smash the warrior straight down to the ground, but the warrior lifted his blade to parry, slashing the knapsack in half, scattering protein bars and canned synthmilk, shearing the electrobinoculars neatly in half and stabbing into the electronic guts of the datapad--which exploded into blue-white sparks that lit up the rain and scaled the length of the amphistaff to scorch the warrior's hands. The warrior hacked a glottal curse as his hands spasmed involuntarily. Smoking, the amphistaff fell limp to the ground between them.

Jacen grimaced as pain bit his own hands, chewing its way up his arms--but it wasn't his pain. This was pain from the warrior's burns.

When the warrior leapt to attack unarmed, Jacen met his attack effortlessly, pivoting slightly so that the warrior's spiked boot missed him by a centimeter. The warrior skidded, caught himself, then twisted and fired a lightning punch overhand toward Jacen's temple.Jacen tilted his head a fraction, and the punch only ruffled his hair.

"If you don't stop," Jacen said, "I'll have to hurt us."

The warrior snarled and swung his knotted fists. Jacen flicked the first punch aside; the second, he parried with an open palm as he stepped forward, swinging his own doubled arm, so that the warrior's knuckles slammed into the point of Jacen's oncoming elbow. The warrior howled as his knuckles shattered, and a blaze of alien pain ignited in Jacen's arm: splintered bones stabbing through third-degree electrical burns.

"I can do this all day."

He could: the warrior might as well have been a part of Jacen's own body. He could no more fail to meet an attack than one of his hands would miss the other in the dark. He would feel every scrap of whatever pain he inflicted, but so what? It was only pain. And the rest...
-Traitor

Was the first Traitor feat I mentioned not enough? Well here, he fights barehanded against an armed Vong Warrior. While cut off from the force. While exhausted. He was able to face Vong warriors in the most difficult of circumstances, I say it's more than fair to compare these to Cade's fight. With this, we can solidly put Cade below Jacen

---

Informal_Geek wrote:As for your final chain It’s kinda entirely based on mental math. We have no way of placing Cade precisely below Jacen. Especially given Cade faced and defeated a prime Darth Krayt.

Your final point to address: No. He was dominated in that fight and only cheapshotted Krayt at the end.  A defeat? Sure. But he's < Krayt

---

To close off this response:

---

Characters: 4231 (I posted my chain as an image, but I still counted the characters taken up in the chain)

Ok so to open I feel the need to address a great deal here since I think you mischaracterized a good bit.

Jacens feat against Vong armor is questionable at best, since we’ve seen Vong in armor get taken down by a good variety of things. We have that time a teenage girl managed to stab a Vong to death (and even if she had her super strength at the time due to being half Vong, that kind of strength is only gonna be about on par if not below a force user)




To be clear, Vong armor is good. Very good. But it clearly has weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Especially next to prhik, one of the strongest materials in the setting.

Jacens Slayer feat while good is also ham strung by something you yourself mention, Luke was there. The same Luke who, without breaking a sweat, cut down about two dozen or so Vong warriors.




Luke kills a majority of the Slayers in that fight, even Jaina does more. Jacens the first one to get hit in fact

“One of the slayers nearly stumbled into the flow, but caught himself in time. Surging after him, Jacen swung his blade through a backhanded crosscut, which the warrior parried, then answered with a fast chop aimed at Jacen's left knee. Jacen jumped straight up, but not quickly enough, and the amphistaff struck him on the ankle. Landing off balance, he staggered into the wall. Two warriors hurried after him, but made it only halfway…” Unifying Force, PG. 267


Following this you claim saber energy and blaster energy are basically the same. And your proof of this is a quote about ancient sabers that itself is in “” marks. We know lightsabers utilize technology well above a blaster. Bulk head starship doors, the kind that can tank massive internal detonation and heavy starship broadsides are sliced through by a lightsaber

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K48M2S7bkSA

Following this I call into question your uses of blaster absorption equaling saber absorption. There is a reason all your examples were Corran Horn. Who’s families primary notable trait is massive levels of energy absorption. Recall Corrans grandfather after being impaled absorbed the entire lightsaber before totally breaking a dark Jedi’s force shield and snapping him like a twig.

There’s a reason Yoda without a saber is never shown or even implied to be able to do that. Nor someone like Kenobi who also had a degree of affinity with Tutaminis.

Following this you dismissed my evidence of Sith Lords with “some rando sith took out some rando jedi”, while those Jedi were random in the sense they aren’t exactly main characters, in universe context says a lot. For one, Jedi don’t gather outside the hidden temple. It’s considered suicidal. We see this in that scene with dialogue, noting the danger of even meeting






And yet Wolf Sazen considers finding Cade to be second to nothing in terms of importance. The three Jedi he invited are all specially selected for that task. And it says a lot that he took that risk and invited those Jedi specifically.
You also didn’t address my points about how important combat is in even earning your tattoos or the fact the Kne Sith are notably immersed in the dark side. (Which makes sense given the teachings of Kraft do come stalwart in part from one of the original 12)

Following this you say Draco was “TK Rekt in a small skirmish”, you didn’t address the fact the push did next to nothing seeing as how Krieg, who’s below Draco, was back up in a moment. And while the two were defending the majesty they also weren’t going all out trying to kill Jedi. Also being hit by TK by no means means you’re below the person you’re fighting. It just means you didn’t have the opportunity to properly defend. Look at Luke vs Desann in Jedi outcast. Desann is noted as a dark side adept in sources. Not particularly note worthy at that point

https://youtu.be/B_sJxfo6y0U

And next you have Cade struggling with a Vong warrior. And I fully agree. Note however that Vao was fine. And also note that fight lasted moments as it was almost instantly interrupted and ended. Cade however is really pathetic at that point. It’s pre him reestablishing his force connection in full, pre Sith training, and is right after he was awakened from basically trying to drug himself to death.




The other Jedi even comment on his physical state, atrophied skills, etc. and that’s after 2 weeks of training.  




That Cade is easily far below his later Krayt fight self, or his level during his overpowering of Vao later in the comic that you showed.

So yes I agree Jacen did far better. However Jacen wasn’t strung out with a weak force connection he purposefully buried, and wasn’t out of practice for nearly a decade.. So it’s by no means fair to compare that to Cades fight



this isn’t a cheap shot. Cade force pulled a saber, turned, jumped, and impaled Krayt all before he could react. It’s a fight to the death and Cade took an opportunity. It’s very much akin to how quinlan killed Sorra Bulq.

And it’s not like he didn’t keep up earlier in the fight too



Cade by the end of the series is very much able to contend with Krayt, even if he’s not able to outright overpower him in a fight. Which makes a lot of sense given he’s beyond a prodigy. Since he was nearly a Jedi knight at the age of 14!

A lot of these arguments require you to really really lowball Legacy characters

Word count: 4369

Informal_Geek wrote:Jacens feat against Vong armor is questionable at best, since we’ve seen Vong in armor get taken down by a good variety of things. We have that time a teenage girl managed to stab a Vong to death (and even if she had her super strength at the time due to being half Vong, that kind of strength is only gonna be about on par if not below a force user)

Informal_Geek wrote:To be clear, Vong armor is good. Very good. But it clearly has weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Especially next to prhik, one of the strongest materials in the setting.

While the average Vong Warrior armor is < Phrik for sure, that chick from Invasion is stronger than you'd think. She did serious damage on stormie armor and ripped a stormie's head off with relative ease. Plus, the fact that Jacen faced huge numbers of normal Vong warriors as well as Slayers more than proves my point that Draco's armor ain't helping him much.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Jacens Slayer feat while good is also ham strung by something you yourself mention, Luke was there. The same Luke who, without breaking a sweat, cut down about two dozen or so Vong warriors.

Not sure how this Invasion scan is relevant. Jacen killed hoards of Vong warriors with their own amphistaffs with ease in Traitor. And yeah, Luke was there during the Slayer fight, but as you'll soon see, Jacen carried his own weight for much of that fight.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Luke kills a majority of the Slayers in that fight, even Jaina does more. Jacens the first one to get hit in fact

Luke does indeed kill the most but Jaina did NOT kill more than Jacen. I've analyzed the fight too. Blue=Luke's kills, Green=Jacen's kills, Purple=Jaina's kills. Jaina killed maybe one, Luke killed 9-10. Jacen killed 5. And I've already pointed out how impressive killing a Slayer is. As as is stated in the second line, the Slayers know Jacen to be > Jaina too.

The quartets began to square off with Luke and Jacen, while the larger group formed up opposite Jaina. Seeing that Luke and Jacen were the stronger fighters, the slayers had decided to reserve most of their might for the Jedi they perceived as being the weakest, guessing that Luke and Jacen would always go to Jaina's aid before attempting to reach Shimrra.
-TUF

His blade found exposed flesh time and again, but the slayers sustained each searing blow without surrendering ground. The amphistaffs hammered at the lightsaber with such force that flashes of blinding radiance filled the room, projecting giant silhouettes up along the curved walls. In an attempt to forge a united front, and despite battling warriors on three sides,

Luke and Jaina began to move toward one another. For a moment, several slayers found themselves trapped between the two Jedi and the lashing movements of their comrades' amphistaffs. Pierced simultaneously from either side, one warrior dropped to the floor; then a second. Luke vaulted through a half-twisting front flip that landed him back to back with Jaina, killing a third warrior on the way down, with a strike to the top of the head. With some effort, Luke saw Jacen through the Force, pressed hard by the four slayers who had dedicated themselves to him.

Again Luke leapt, swinging his blade through the air and cleaving the neck of the most formidable of the slayers attacking his nephew. Two slender amphistaffs shot for Luke's legs, but he managed to jump over both, as if skipping rope, then decapitated the slower amphistaff before it could withdraw. A coufee swooshed through the air millimeters from his right ear. Crouching, he extended one foot and pivoted on the other, knocking feet out from under the knife wielder, then amputating the warriors left foot with a return swing of the lightsaber.

Seeing an opening, Luke made a move for Shimrra-only to be dragged down by the dovin basal. Immediately, he rolled to one side, toppling two slayers and removing himself from the gravity field. Jacen leapt to Jaina's side of the bunker, and the two of them began working in concert to drive a trio of warriors back toward the moat that encircled Shimrra's throne.

--

The gravity-tweaking dovin basal set in the base of the throne made it impossible for Jacen or his opponents to venture closer to the throne than the shallow moat that encircled it without being tugged violently to the yorik coral floor. Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.

--

Jacen sent a warning to his uncle through the Force, which Luke acknowledged-not only through the Force but also by spinning away from the warriors to provide himself with enough fighting room to confront Shimrra. Whirling through a cartwheel, Luke caught one of the warriors on the chin with the heels of his boots, unbalancing him enough so that Luke could get inside the arm that held the amphistaff and drive his lightsaber through the warrior's neck. As he quickly withdrew the blade, a second warrior was ready to pounce; Luke stretched out his left hand and impaled the slayer through the right eye.

At once the other two converged on him, battering him with their amphistaffs and coufees, opening ragged wounds in his upper arms and chest. Abruptly, the Citadel rocked and the room tilted to the right. Luke dropped to one knee, holding his lightsaber arm up to protect his head, then dived, somersaulting on landing and spinning to his feet to face the warriors' charge. His green blade moved up from the floor in a diagonal motion, cutting off the weapon arm of one of the warriors, then on the downswing grated across the abdomen of the second, leaving a sizzling burn in the slayer's hardened flesh. Wincing, the warrior tried to take hold of the energy blade itself and fell forward on his knees. Luke pierced him through the chest, then pivoted on one foot to take on the others.

One of the warriors stalking Jacen abandoned him to engage Luke. Jacen moved against the others, the shorter of whom feigned a strike at Jacen's right leg, then twirled the amphistaff in his hands and slammed the tail end of it into Jacen's right cheek. Reeling from the blow, he staggered within range of the dovin basal, which dragged him to the floor on his back.

The short warrior hurried in, his weapon striking at Jacen like a serpent, then stiffening, jabbed him hard in the left forearm, as if to stake the arm to the floor. Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.

Jacen could feel Luke call deeply on the reservoir that was the Force. From Luke's left hand gathered a blinding tangle of energy manipulated into being by the raw power of the Force. As if hitting an invisible wall, the warrior stopped short, then spasmed as green sparks began to coruscate around him. Enveloped, he fell like a tree. Still twisting and writhing away from the snapping amphistaff, Jacen used his Vongsense to dampen the effect of the dovin basal, allowing him to move out of its gravitic field and get to his feet. His short opponent howled in outrage and whipped the amphistaff.

Jacen allowed it to coil around his body; then, as the warrior was reeling the weapon in, Jacen hurled his lightsaber deep into the slayer's armpit. The bunker inclined, sending Jacen directly toward Shimrra. Without thinking-and without his lightsaber-he lunged for the neck of the towering Yuuzhan Vong. But Shimrra perceived Jacen's intent, and threw his mighty right arm behind him. Jacen was hit squarely in the center of the chest. Dropping to the floor, he blacked out.
-TUF

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this you claim saber energy and blaster energy are basically the same. And your proof of this is a quote about ancient sabers that itself is in “” marks. We know lightsabers utilize technology well above a blaster. Bulk head starship doors, the kind that can tank massive internal detonation and heavy starship broadsides are sliced through by a lightsaber

You haven't really debunked my lightsaber energy point, "frozen blaster" means the energy is focused into one area. They both are in effect, the same kind of energy. Lightsabers can cut through starship doors where blaster bolts can't, yes. And that is because concentrated energy that doesn't dissipate/explode on impact (lightsabers)>>>>>>Energy that explodes on impact (blaster bolts)

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this I call into question your uses of blaster absorption equaling saber absorption. There is a reason all your examples were Corran Horn. Who’s families primary notable trait is massive levels of energy absorption. Recall Corrans grandfather after being impaled absorbed the entire lightsaber before totally breaking a dark Jedi’s force shield and snapping him like a twig.

Yes, my main examples were indeed Corran Horn and yes, he has a potency with tutaminis matched by few. Jacen's absorption of blaster bolts was a feat that dwarfed one of Corran's earlier feats. And tutaminis is the absorption and dissipation of energy. Lightsaber blades are energy. Deflecting lightsaber strikes is by no means implausible, and much more has been done with tutaminis. We all know that infamous Satele feat. My examples with Corran were to show that:
A: He had a feat comparable to Jacen's early in his career.
B: Using tutaminis with lightsabers is more than possible as Corran shows us.
His potency with the power is nowhere near enough to do what Nejaa did or what Corran did in Dark Tide 1. But him parrying a lightsaber strike isn't implausible.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this you dismissed my evidence of Sith Lords with “some rando sith took out some rando jedi”, while those Jedi were random in the sense they aren’t exactly main characters, in universe context says a lot. For one, Jedi don’t gather outside the hidden temple. It’s considered suicidal. We see this in that scene with dialogue, noting the danger of even meeting

On this point of Jedi gathering, that's fair. Sith at that time were a threat to the degree that Jedi were scared to gather. But that's more an indication of just how dangerous the numbers of Sith is rather than the potency of the individual Sith

---

Informal_Geek wrote:You also didn’t address my points about how important combat is in even earning your tattoos or the fact the Kne Sith are notably immersed in the dark side. (Which makes sense given the teachings of Kraft do come stalwart in part from one of the original 12)

The One Sith are "immersed in the dark side"? Cool. But again, that's not really an indication of potency. It's just saying they're devoted dark side followers. And on the note of earning tattoos, rando Sith killing rando characters still isn't that impressive. One Sith were powerful in numbers, but outside a few notable members, They're not that potent.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Following this you say Draco was “TK Rekt in a small skirmish”, you didn’t address the fact the push did next to nothing seeing as how Krieg, who’s below Draco, was back up in a moment. And while the two were defending the majesty they also weren’t going all out trying to kill Jedi. Also being hit by TK by no means means you’re below the person you’re fighting. It just means you didn’t have the opportunity to properly defend. Look at Luke vs Desann in Jedi outcast. Desann is noted as a dark side adept in sources. Not particularly note worthy at that point

Fair, Draco and Krieg weren't trying to kill Cade. My point still stands. They weren't playing around either. They were still fighting. While generally, I would agree that being TKed doesn't mean a character has lost, it does mean that here. It's clear that Cade could've ended this fight whenever he wanted to. Him saying "enough" indicates that well enough. This is still solid material to put Draco below Cade

---

Informal_Geek wrote:And next you have Cade struggling with a Vong warrior. And I fully agree. Note however that Vao was fine. And also note that fight lasted moments as it was almost instantly interrupted and ended. Cade however is really pathetic at that point. It’s pre him reestablishing his force connection in full, pre Sith training, and is right after he was awakened from basically trying to drug himself to death.

Informal_Geek wrote:That Cade is easily far below his later Krayt fight self, or his level during his overpowering of Vao later in the comic that you showed

Informal_Geek wrote:So yes I agree Jacen did far better. However Jacen wasn’t strung out with a weak force connection he purposefully buried, and wasn’t out of practice for nearly a decade.. So it’s by no means fair to compare that to Cades fight

Yes, the Cade that got knocked down by the Vong boi is definitely well below the version of him that killed Krayt. That being said, Jacen's performance in VP and Traitor are still impressive and valid comparisons. He was in a weaker state in Traitor. His force connection was cut off. Even with the Vong sense, he was still hindered. A handicap worse than Cade's. And in Vector Prime, it should his performance with a completely foreign and unknown enemy and just how well he can adapt to fighting that kind of enemy. I think it's fair

---

Informal_Geek wrote:this isn’t a cheap shot. Cade force pulled a saber, turned, jumped, and impaled Krayt all before he could react. It’s a fight to the death and Cade took an opportunity. It’s very much akin to how quinlan killed Sorra Bulq.

Informal_Geek wrote:And it’s not like he didn’t keep up earlier in the fight too

Cade's killing of Krayt absolutely was a cheapshot. Sure, he did contend with Krayt for a moment. But he got dominated very shortly afterwards. Krayt had the advantage over him and was trying to turn him to the dark side. Cade resists the temptation and feigns joining the dark side only to then strike when Krayt naturally let his guard down. That is by all means a cheapshot. He got the drop on an enemy he deceived.

---

Informal_Geek wrote:Cade by the end of the series is very much able to contend with Krayt, even if he’s not able to outright overpower him in a fight. Which makes a lot of sense given he’s beyond a prodigy. Since he was nearly a Jedi knight at the age of 14!

Cade was potent for his time and he's not to be scoffed at. But it's clear he's overpowered, outmatched, and outclassed by Krayt.

Informal_Geek wrote:A lot of these arguments require you to really really lowball Legacy characters

While a lot of my points aren't too favorable for the Legacy era, they're still nonetheless valid.

---

Characters: 4330

First I noted the girls strength, but her super strength hadn’t formed yet. Plus even if it had and she somehow didn’t notice she has at best Vong strength. Tho probably lower since she’s only half Vong. So not great for Vong armor.
Vong armor is meant for fighting in general. Imperial Knight armor is Vader armor plus extra bonuses almost entirely focused on lightsaber fights. Thus the cortosis gauntlet (something Jacen has very little experience with)

“Jacen killed hoards of Vong warriors with their own amphistaffs with ease in traitor.”

Jacen kills a number of warriors in traitor, but the amount is never specified. You’ve previously even said it could have been “hundreds”. Which is nonsense with zero backing. Plus, while Jacen is cut off from the force at the time, he has Vong sense. And being in a Vong structure he effectively has the force again in terms of sensing people. He’s also covered in Vong armor at the time, not to mention he has an army of slaves being thrown at the Vong warriors.
“Already, the inflowing tide of slaves had swamped the warriors guarding the hive-island”
-traitor

So Unless you think fighting alone while fairly weak is better than having a thousand plus slaves tidal waving over your enemies for you, Jacen is on a better spot than Cade.
Plus Vao does fine in that fight.

And again, you just say it’s possible Jacen can maybe parry a saber with his hands. That’s meaningless. By your own logic a saber is way more energy than an individual blaster shot. And there’s a reason Jacen has never once been shown to be able to do that. Just like Yoda or Kenobi.
Maybe he blocks a strike with a power he has never before shown that level of ability with, so what? He’s still unarmed in that circumstance and Draco isn’t. Not to mention if it somehow came to hand to hand Draco also equally specialized in that. Not to mention his armor is even better in that circumstance since Jacen would be punching Phrik enhanced combat armor, while fighting someone who is equally as skilled with a saber as he is hand to hand, good luck with that.

“The Imperial Knights devote as much attention to fighting barehanded, in vehicles, and with the Force as they do to fighting with lightsabers."
-Campaign Guide

Now to address the point of One Sith, you state “One Sith are powerful in numbers, but outside of a few notable members, They’re not that potent”. This is nonsense. I’ve demonstrated there immersion which you blow off, despite immersion being key in channeling the dark side.
Plus we don’t ever see them use massive numbers. That Sith strike team in issue 1 isn’t using overwhelming force, they used stealth and speed. It’s 4 Sith v 4 Jedi and they kill two of Wolfs chosen Jedi. Or the assassin who genuinely presses emperor Fel (a Skyewalker), it’s 1 Sith assassin.



Same for capturing Fels daughter, One Sith at first. Even after backup arrives it’s only 5 or so additional Sith,




one of whom manages to lethally wound the fully trained Marasiah Fel who is slightly handicapped by helping Cade.




And even at Ossus against Kol Skywalker (who is consistently hyped up) we get the closest to overwhelming force the Sith ever use, and we still only see maybe 10 Sith around Kol.





And finally you use Cade saying “enough” like that means he has ended the fight between him and the two knights. What? Someone saying a word means he clearly can win? Need I mention that Cade also said something similar after Emperess Fel nearly died? And proceeded to not at all be able to end the fight even with his rage and potent abilities.





And if the fact he said enough is enough proof to say he wins I do believe the RPG stats for Cade, which for him are set at the same point of that force push place him at a CL 11, while Draco is a CL 15. Legitimately just more powerful than Cade at that point.




count: 3129

Closing argument:

Basically no point made for Jacen beyond some vague points about his skill really hold up.
Evidence for him includes a time where he took out some Vong alongside an absolutely massive army of slaves who helped him, and a time where he faltered against some Vong slayers really early in the fight.

Draco has armor greater than a Vong, is specialized in defeating force users with his Phrik enforced armor, and Cortosis gauntlet. If Jacen hits that gauntlet even once he’s disarmed for the fight, and Jacen has very little experience with cortosis.

Draco meanwhile is an expert of not just swordsmanship, and if disarmed can easily fall back onto the force or hand to hand martial arts which he is equally as proficient in.

Every point made to lower his feats, such as attempting to argue One Sith only work with overwhelming force just have no backing. I demonstrated that they never once fall back on swarm tactics, other than maybe Kol skywalker. The GM of the order. Or the idea that Cade somehow stomped Draco with one singular force push because he said “enough”. I guess Desann is also way above Luke because he force pushed him that one time.
All despite stats for Cade from just after his Sith training (an event at most only 1 week before the hidden temple arc meaning it’s the same Cade) placing him for sure below Draco.

Draco time and again goes into battles people straight up describe as suicidal, and still manages to prevail. There’s a reason he’s the leader of an already elite order.

Going in there's not many direct comparisons made, rather focus on comparing different feats and abilities, with the main points being skill, power and durability. So in this debate the winner simply is the one with the most convincing arguments. 

Durability: RNG made a better case for durability, and IG seemed to relent on that point. Armour could give Draco an advantage but not convinced by a noticeable difference between that and vong armour. The strongest part of this in favour of IG is the cortosis gauntlet which I feel like RNG should have elaborated Jacen's knowledge of, but since he didn't, it remains a relevant factor. 

Abilities/power: IG seems to agree that Jacen is more powerful and has a wider/better array of abilites, although he argues that the gap is small enough for Draco to make up for it. However I didn't see any convincing case for Draco countering art of the small, judgement, or telekinesis. The tutaminis point from RNG seems questionable. 

Skill: Not many comparisons drawn between the skills of the two, but ultimatively vong slayers seemed more impressive than one sith/fel. 

Conclusion: I vote for @Chris_Cortosis 

If either want to know what they could have done better/what they did well you can pm me on SI or Discord

These are my somewhat scatterbrained reactions to each of the posts, accompanied with an ending judgement. Apologies if anything I say is unclear, unfair or lazy sounding (you can discuss with me in PM's anything you take issue with, though it's ultimately not going to change anything about this post. Even if you could convince me I was wrong, this post at the time it was written will stand, so please contact me because you want to, rather than in an attempt to sneak a win).

Chris's opener: While I appreciate the extensive sourcing and clear effort put into the post, it lacks anything of substance when it comes to actually comparing the characters. I understand that forging a direct comparison via scaling can prove difficult, but it should always be attempted, as from reading this post, it's not immediately clear to me that Jacen is more powerful based off what's been presented, just that he is generally capable, and his opponent's prowess is unknown by contrast due to less in the way of feats and versatility.

Geek's opener: Much the same as the above in terms of lacking direct connectivity, but with the additional issue of giving ground and not pointing out the flaws in his opponent's argument, instead seeming to sort of agree with the idea that Jacen has certain advantages (which he didn't need to do, and should not have done).

Chris's rebuttal: Chris ramps it up a notch by casting doubt upon the feats presented by his opponent, and actually establishes a degree of direct connectivity through the Vong comparison. While these ideas could have been leveraged better throughout, and some of the post feels a little rushed/lacking in strong logic, it's up to his opponent to capitalise on these shortcomings. If he can't, it's Chris's game.

Geek's rebuttal: While he throws doubt upon the Vong comparison adequately enough by establishing Cade's growth, it's still not clear to me what Draco is bringing to the table here, because there exists no tangible link between him and Jacen. The other sections of the post seemed to be taking Chris round in circles over things that don't necessarily matter, just vague and poorly defined eyeballing of potential edges the two have due to versatility. Somewhat disappointed in anything unrelated to the Vong comparison thus far, from both Chris and Geek.

Chris's reply: Pretty much adequately addresses everything Geek put forth, most notably on the Vong comparison, which is the key to this debate thus far.

Geek's reply: Pretty insuffient with regards to refuting the Vong comparison. Everything else is secondary, so while there's some bright spots in it, they don't ultimately save the post.

Overall judgement: Chris won in the end, though both had letdowns and errors throughout.

As an aside, make sure you don't take any negativity from this post to heart. You both performed well for newer and less experienced debaters in this format, and will likely turn out excellent one day.