Stomper Showdown R2 #7 - Boc Aseca (Ghost of Grievous) vs Tholme (AthaPrime)

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Well lets get to it then, I guess i will be opening this then, Boc the crude. within this debate and tourney i hope to flesh out the character and expand on him with feats and scaling from various sources that will be elaborated on further. To start i think its important to understand how good some of the dark jedi themselves were and also how powerful their main foe, Kyle Katarn was. Even before he began his training in the jedi arts he was already subconsciously augmenting himself, capable of beating up 5 or 6 Fell Dragons bare handed! for reference on what a Fell dragon is here is a picture of the ones he beat up




He also matched and defeated boba fett, a character who i feel needs no introduction on his welfare of good showings against notably strong opponents. leaving him in a near death state, moving on from that kyle also beat up a Phase 3 dark trooper in hand to hand combat. recall this was all before his proper training where he grew massively in power over the course of his adventures. Boc the crude proved to be a formidable opponent almost killing kyle in their duel on the opening few attacks, and would have if not for jans warnings. as admitted by kyle himself. A very good showing considering kyle would go on to face Jerec, a vader level being who was tapping into the valley of the jedi.




Tholme on the other hand, may have good showings on the surface. But once one actually looks at them in comparison to others, Tholme starts to fall apart. His showings not so grand, and in comparison are not able to compete. Something that will be made apparent later is Tholmes inferiority to Quinlan vos, and later Vos' inferiority to the dark jedi who Boc scales above.

So to start, Kyle beat up multiple giant lizards with his bare hands, matching and beating boba fett, the greatest bounty hunter in history in combat, and then beat up a phase 3 dark trooper in h2h combat. which already is enough to give Tholme a run for his money in sheer combative power let alone the Dark jedi who matches Tholmes better, and kyle who then STARTED his jedi training, grew in strength and skill with each fight up to defeating a vader level+ opponent...and boc still nearly killed him if it wasnt for outside help.

OPENER

Tholme was greatly adept in concealing himself from opponents and has even been shown to be able to hide from moderately powerful force users, such as Akku Seii and Quinlan Vos. As can be seen through feats accomplished through Star Wars: Republic and Star Wars: Darkness, he is quite adept in Shii-Cho through his ability to multitask fighting multiple mercenaries, anzati assassins and Morgukai clone warriors. His ability to consistently combat with high level warriors consistently and without fault, speaks levels to his ability to deal with randomised and intense confrontations.





Such being exactly what Tholme would have to deal with if he was to fight Boc who's style of combat imitates Grevious, in that it’s a mesh of Niman, Ataru and Djem So. As has been exhibited through Kit Fisto in the Star Wars the Clone Wars, a master of Shii-Cho can flourish when fighting an opponent who relies of on randomised attacks. As such Boc can’t rely on the same theatrics he attempted on Kyle Katarn during their duel and Boc will have to either begin jumping around to keep Tholme back as he does in Dark Forces 2, or turn to Makashi.


If Boc were to chose the latter then that would work to Tholme's advantage as he is also been adept in Makashi, Dooku himself claiming during their duel that Tholme had faired "better than most Jedi" who had faced him. Although Tholme did lose that fight, those were considerably high praises from the reigning master of Makashi of the era. There’s a key weakness within Boc that Tholme could and would capitalise on, and that his Boc's oversized lekku which come down to his feet. Coupled with Tholme's consistency of using his surroundings to win a fight, he could potentially slice off Boc's lekku, leaving him brain dead.




Tholme had become an expert with soresu, which means he can adequately defend himself if his opponent takes the upper hand. Like Sora Bulq pushed Tholme onto the defensive. The ability to defend ones self is an ability Boc does not seem to posses. In every fight he has always relied on taking the offensive immediately and proceeding to tire his opponent out. Such a strategy could not hold up when he fought Qu Rahn and Kyle on seperate occasions. Boc was unable to defend himself when his combatents were able to either avoid it (like with Qu) or weather it (like with Kyle). Therefore, Tholme would be able to not only compete with Boc, but put him on the defensive causing him to falls.




If, Boc decided to instead create distance between himself and the Jedi Master, then -as shown when one creates distance between Kyle and Boc in his boss battle- Boc will begin trying to snipe Tholme with force destruction. If Tholme is hit by Force Destruction, he would die. However, Force Destruction’s a power which’s easy to dodge and isn't a technique that can’t be spammed. Since Boc insists on only using Force Destruction when his opponent’s far away, Tholme would have no problem being able to dodge if Kyle as a novice could do it. Another factor to take into account is Tholme's Force Concealment. As shown in Star Wars: Republic, Tholme can conceal himself during a fight if he’s given enough distance from his opponent, distance. Once cloaked, Boc would only be able to guess where Tholme is and would be unable to hit him.

The way the battle would go from there would be that Boc would also conceal himself with the force, like he did to get the drop on Kyle. The fight would then turn into a game of hide and seek, with both combatants simultaneously being both the ones hiding and the ones seeking. This would only act to Tholme's advantage, as a spy he has been trained to sense when others are concealing themselves like him. Tholme would be able to get the drop on Boc and the fight would turn back to the first scenario.

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So your opener is about how great he is at Shii-cho? And force concealment? A worthless ability in a 1v1 combat. But its cool that he knows the most basic form taught to trainees, a form ill suited for lightsaber combat. Im sure that’ll be of great use to him in a 1v1 lightsaber fight. when faced with similar foes Vos did even better. Having beaten one of the morgukai while injured.








boc and grievous have nothing in common lol. Grievous attacks with a flurry of 4 lightsabers with monstrous speed and strength to steamroll you, boc hops around with acrobatics and speed as he hacks away at you with superior athletics and battle presence. The kit v GG is riddled with circumstance and is a vague and poor comparison given their obvious difference in approach. Tholme is not kit, boc is not grievous. Your attempt to try and lump them together is flawed and weak. Boc is a fast and skilled fighter who is quick with the blade and his feet with a tendency to trick his opponents. A bad combo for someone you just praised for being good at a form ill suited for 1v1 combat






that’s not what he said. He praised him for keeping up with the old ways of dueling instead of blast deflection. Which may hurt my earlier point but as shown below once tholme rejects dookus offer he stomps him. As said above when put against the same group of enemies injured Vos preformed far better then tholme did. Did he keep up the old ways? Perhaps yes. Is he as good as your trying to say he is? No, and I would LOVE so see a scan of a lekku severing happening mid combat. Not that boc’s lekkus are relevant as he has them curled around not dangling in the wind and as it turns out they don’t move from that spot; you’re attempting to create weaknesses that are not there. If you think tholme can grab a lekku by all means prove it.  






glad we agree on tholme dying to force destruction. Honestly novice kyle has shown greater dueling feats then tholme. Fighting to a stand still and leaving boba near dead pre training >>>> getting stomped by dooku and sub vos in showings. Especially since vos got humiliated by an inferior BH in cad bane






you’re trying to hold boc by in game mechanics of a limited age. To claim boc can not be defensive is a foolish assumption based off little evidence, one being a small skirmish in which boc does better then the former jedi turned jedi killer maw, and the other is a in game fight. Cheap move.


on topic of cheap in game limiting evidence, its in fact not easy to dodge a fast large projectile that even if dodged by twisting the body it can still explode causing massive blasts and still hurt them just from that. If you want to talk game terms getting hit from the AOE blast of a dodged force destruction can still easily almost kill kyle, a jedi of far greater strength physically and force wise then vos who’s tholmes better.


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Speaking non limiting 90’s game mechanics. If boc opts to use force destruction close or far, Tholme likely wont know and be able a counter such a unique ability and will foolishly try to block it, ending in death or be forced to dodge leaving him open to boc to take advantage or dodge but not enough and get hurt massively by the explosion once again allowing boc to capitalize on an now injured tholme. Pic you poison


if you want to accept headcanon fanfics as facts then ill do one too, here we go. They ignite their sabers and engage in a duel, suddenly boc whips out a second saber. A tactic shown to get even the best of the order like qui gon jinn off guard and helpless against.

forced on the back foot tholme isn’t fast enough to stop the surprise saber and is overwhelmed by bocs superior acrobatic assault. Trying to get some distance ends up being his undoing as his body is destroyed by a blast of force destruction, something tholme has no counter for. The end

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to summarize:

-you present only saber form “showings” to show tholme is great, when in fact he is sub vos and dooku fodder.

-his only good showing being running from sora, losing to vos, getting stomped by dooku after he rejects his offer to join him and getting beaten by assassins an injured vos can do better against and a massively sub jerec force user can stomp the very best of

-fanfic headcanon and hypotheticals that won’t happen given the lack of specified environment. Which in typical debating practice makes it default to neutral flat ground. So no hiding or tk throwing objects cause he’s not skilled enough to win a duel

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in conclusion:

Amp boc=jedi kyle>>DF 1 kyle>= boba fett>teen boba>cad bane>vos>assassins>tholme

RESPONSE 1:B
Ok, I’ll start off by saying that although the morgukai are skilled warriors and it is impressive that Vos was able to beat one while injured (though I don’t know why you’re bringing this up because this doesn’t reflect to Boc or Tholme), Tholme has been handicapped since the beginning of the clone wars with the crippling of his right leg and needing to have a leg brace. With that in mind he was able to combat the clone warriors with ease and without getting kicked in the face in the panel you have displayed.



As for my apparent “dumb” decision to focus of Shii-Cho and to claim Grievous and Boc are similar, I would like to explain that both Grievous and Boc are fighters that mainly use Niman as gateways to perform unorthodox techniques on their opponents -mainly Jar’Kai, Trispzest and degrees of Juyo as seen through both of them constantly changing where they plan to hit their opponent mid-slash. Both also use deception to trick their enemy, such as Grievous’ extra set of arms and Boc’s wide lightsaber that splits vertically into two lightsabers. You claim Boc is different because he “hops around with acrobatics and speed as he hacks away at you with superior athletics and battle presence” and if you truly believe Grievous is not athletic, fast, or that he doesn’t “hack” at his opponents or “hop around”, then you clearly haven’t watched any of Clone Wars 2003 -aka the prime examples of him doing just that. Boc fights like Grievous, but with less robotic strength, finesse and control and frankly, his two lightsabers sticking together vertically is not nearly as shocking as suddenly having four arms and thus four lighsabers spinning around like sword blades.






I would also like to take not of your Aura Sing example, and first off, although Qui Gon is a Makashi specialist like Tholme, he is not a devoted Soresu practitioner like Tholme’s. As such, Tholme could parry such surprise attacks with greater ease then Qui Gon. On top of this, Aura used a second lightsaber which was concealed behind her back, whereas Boc clips his two lightsabers together, making it easier to spot when it gets split.




Back to Shii-Cho and why it IS a viable lightsaber form for this duel, first Shii-Cho is about using the force to guide one through the heat of battle, fast paced strikes and parries with intense velocity and taking on and disarming (or in many cases killing) a large quantity of opponents. A technique based around fast paced strikes and parries on a large quantity of opponent’s exactly what you need when fighting a madman jumping around like he’s on a sugar high, trying to attack you from different angles in quick succession.




Coupled with Tholme’s Soresu, Shii-Cho provides a defensive wall against randomised Niman hack-and-slashers like Boc and even allows Tholme to tag Boc back. In fact he did exactly that in his fight against the Vaapad/Niman dervish Sora Bulq who was also jumping around and employing two lighsabers like Boc. And yes, Tholme DID concede the fight, but not because he was overwhelmed, but because his mission was to sabotage Bulq’s cloning operation and Bulq was simply distracting him from his goal.







As stated through the Lightsaber Training Booklet, one of the main Shii-Cho practices is disarming an opponent by injuring or removing their arms, something Tholme -who appears to have mastered Shii-Cho beyond its tutorial purposes- should be able to do easily. As such I return to my statement regarding Tholme taking advantage of Boc’s oversized lekku and either hitting or completely slicing off the lekku, leaving Boc brain dead. To address your challenge to me to find proof that Tholme could grab his lekku, I present the images below from Republic #72, where Tholme bypassed one Anzati assassin’s defences to grab his leg and fling him overhead and another image from #72 of Tholme jumping around an assassin and grabbing his arm before using his foot to break it. As you diligently stated, Boc does wrap his oversized lekku around his body, specifically around his left shoulder and around his upper waist. If Tholme has been proven to be able to be able to grab someone’s leg and someone’s arm mid-fight and use said limbs to incapacitate an opponent (trained force sensitive opponents I might add), then he can do the same with Boc and his lekku. You might say Tholme couldn’t because Boc is jumping around, but these assassins were also jumping  to both evade and pounce when fighting Tholme. This’s furthered upon by my previous remark of Tholme being able to use his surroundings to his advantage. I would also like to use THE LAWS OF PHYSICS the statement that the size of Boc’s lekku wouldn’t come into play because he wraps them around him. If you were to wrap say cords around you and them do some flips, the cord will come undone, same goes for Boc, only reason we didn’t see it happen was because of the old game models used in DF2.





Also, if you really want to play the “Tholme never won a serious lightsaber duel” card, then lets take a look at Boc, who didn’t last 2 secs with Qu before being incapacitated, EVEN AFTER Qu was tortured endlessly for days with no rest. And of course there was his defeat by Kyle Katarn and Kyle called amped Boc “mere nuisance” in the DF2 novella. His only recorded duels.

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(though I don’t know why you’re bringing this up because this doesn’t reflect to Boc or Tholme), Tholme has been handicapped since the beginning of the clone wars with the crippling of his right leg and needing to have a leg brace. With that in mind he was able to combat the clone warriors with ease and without getting kicked in the face in the panel you have displayed. wrote:

thanks for showing tholmes crippled leg, thatll definitely help boc dance around him. That injured leg will only hinder his mobility and be a long term problem the more the battle drags on. If he was able to combat them with ease, he wouldn’t have been defeated. He lost to them. Badly

seeing as you didn’t disagree with my many vos>tholmes comparisons ill take that as a concession on that part. Good, for in fact it does relate to boc and tholme. As I shall now prove.

take note of the following highlighted stats, force, use of force and acrobatics. As you can see sariss and vos share the exact same force and use force, but a higher will;block meaning she can defend from force better, her acrobatics is higher and has more HP meaning she has a higher pain threshold. And before you complain about it being a simple rpg game leeland Chee confirms that rpg stats are reflective of them in universe and are a good way to see how another character stacks up against another, much like this. But can be overruled by novels. Such as this one here






each one more powerful then the last. Meaning the amped boc of the valley is superior to sariss, the same sariss that as shown is equal if not better then vos. Who you have all but conceded as tholmes better. And even if you disagree with this all one needs to do is see their duel in the novel.

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kyle while injured taps into the memories of tal to perfectly defend and defeat a lesser injured sariss


proceeding into the valley kyle felt strong and powerful, free of pain. And then proceeded to struggle with boc only for jan to intervene with a rocket allowing kyle a chance to win.





so even the novel depiction supports boc doing better against a stronger healthy kyle then sariss did on a weaker injured kyle.

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I would also like to take not of your Aura Sing example, and first off, although Qui Gon is a Makashi specialist like Tholme, he is not a devoted Soresu practitioner like Tholme’s. As such, Tholme could parry such surprise attacks with greater ease then Qui Gon. On top of this, Aura used a second lightsaber which was concealed behind her back, whereas Boc clips his two lightsabers together, making it easier to spot when it gets split. wrote:

what? If anything qui gon is an ataru specialist. and unlike tholme qui gon is stated to be one of the best in the jedi order at combat. Accolades>no accolades so no tholme wont be parrying shit

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his two lightsabers sticking together vertically is not nearly as shocking as suddenly having four arms wrote:

an interesting idea. Lets see how detaching one thing into two works out for some noted masters in combat
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or when a surprise element is thrown into play

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look at that. All these noted masters of combat are thrown off their game. Shocked and driven back or killed. You cant prepare for surprises, and if noted betters of tholme like Kenobi, qui gon and dooku are caught off guard and driven back by a metal arm detaching in front of them or a new saber being added to the mix? What chance does tholme have with his LACK of combat accolades even boc has saber accolades. You know what will happen? What almost happen to kyle




only he wont have someone to tell him about it. Heck kyle knew about it forgot about it in the heat of combat and admitted it would have killed him. And since you didn’t disbute kyle having better dueling skills then tholme…not looking good for the cripple

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hen you clearly haven’t watched any of Clone Wars 2003 -aka the prime examples of him doing just that. wrote:

your joking right? You see my pfp? You clearly haven’t heard of EXAGGERATED MEDIUMS as in the things and powers people display are exaggerated. Hell 03 is like THE example of E.M if mace could this?


Don’t you think that would have been useful here?


and grievous has never shown that in any other depiction except 03  not this


or this


or this


you get my point



I wont waste any more characters on explaining E.M and medium difference to you, the judges are well aware of its existence and how it works, but If need be i will.

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Coupled with Tholme’s Soresu, wrote:

you keep saying soresu. Blocking attacks =/= master of soresu. Tholme has nothing stating he is proficient in soresu and scans of him blocking attacks proves nothing, by that logic literally everyone is a master of soresu.

his fight against the Vaapad/Niman dervish Sora Bulq who was also jumping around and employing two lighsabers like Boc. wrote:

using two sabers. Proceeds to show scans of him using one saber, swinging broadly and jumping once. Totally the same as actually using two sabers and jumping and flipping repeatedly. Something that a cripple like tholme would have trouble keeping up with with the physical demands that come with facing an opponent like boc. Especially should he let loose a blast of force destruction. Something you also didn’t comment on so ill take as a concession on that point too. Which even if it misses can and likely will still massively hurt tholme. Potentially even destroying his cyber brace.

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If Tholme has been proven to be able to be able to grab someone’s leg and someone’s arm mid-fight and use said limbs to incapacitate an opponent (trained force sensitive opponents I might add), then he can do the same with Boc and his lekku. wrote:

this again? Might I incline you and readers to take a look at the weapon they are brandishing? Little claw knives. Probably 6 inches? You need to be close enough to whisper in their ear for them to be effective, Vastly different then a lightsaber that’s around 3 feet long (36 inches) which provides far greater area of attack and defense then little claws. It’s the difference of this



to this



anyone notice a difference? And also if he were to touch a lekku boc would no doubt be in pain and likely lash out with either force destruction (since you failed to comment/concede on its effectiveness and use) which you admitted to being able to kill tholme, or with a far more energy conserving but still deadly force lightning


this is of course he actually manages to get into a position to grab it considering how much boc moves in combat.

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Also, if you really want to play the “Tholme never won a serious lightsaber duel” card, then lets take a look at Boc, who didn’t last 2 secs with Qu before being incapacitated, EVEN AFTER Qu was tortured endlessly for days with no rest. And of course there was his defeat by Kyle Katarn and Kyle called amped Boc “mere nuisance” in the DF2 novella. His only recorded duels. wrote:

was more going for the “tholme sucks at combat quit overhyping him” card. But if you think tholme never won a serious duel then hey, Your words not mine. First point that isn’t valley amped boc. Who as I shown above is more powerful then sariss a individual that Qu feared and is vos’ and by extension and your concession, tholms better. And secondly, boc nearly killed kyle and did far better then sariss or any other dark jedi before him, against someone I already established as better then tholmes betters. So pick your scaling

boc amp>>sariss>~vos>tholme

or

amp boc~healed kyle + jans>injured kyle>~sariss>>DF1 kyle>~ boba fett>teen boba>cad bane> vos>tholme

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number of conessions: 4
-vos>tholme overall
-kyle>tholme in dueling
-effectiveness and power of force destruction
-pretty much all of the second chain

Whilst the leg is injured, it has not impeded his ability to fight and keep up with opponents. His feats in outmanoeuvring and defeating morgukai warriors and anzati assassins happened after his injury and he managed without fault. He also kept up with Sora Bulq in their first duel with his injured leg, who employed similar tactics to Bulq by jumping around and trying to overwhelm Tholme (though upon looking back I did realise that he wasn’t using his second blade, yeah you can have that one point). I want to point out how amazing it for Tholme (a man with a damaged leg) to keep up with Bulq who claimed “Mace Windu himself could no longer defeat me!” Though I feel like Bulq was patting his back a little too hard, but if Bulq could keep up with Windu on Ruul, then it really is impressive that Tholme is keeping up with Bulq.




Tholme also outran Bulq after using his surroundings to push him off balance and proceeding to leave the fight so he can move on to his mission. It’s obvious that Bulq didn’t just let him go as Bulq is furious when he couldn’t find him and points out how dangerous Tholme escaping was to his cloning program.




Also five months sabotaging and attacking Morgukai warriors nonstop, Tholme commences a in a duel with Vos. Though he loses the battle, from the way the battle is paced, he still lasted longer than Volfe Karkko, Aayla Secura, Salgé Tasha, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr and numerous nightsisters swarming him. Again this was after five months of guerrilla fighting on Tholme’s part and the added tension of having to fight Vos while in a dark side rage.











To defend against your point that my using of Anzati assassins in invalid because of their lesser weapon length, there was also the many Morgukai Tholme faced throughout Star Wars: Republic, who wielded vibroblades and in some cases light-pikes, one is equal to the length of a lightsaber, while the other surpasses. And as an example, when fighting the Morgukai Boc, Tholme knocked his pike back and trip up Boc, getting into his inner defence, the man only being saved by his cortosis armband, so grabbing the lekku is still on the table.





As for the spec sheets, if you really want to go down that rabbit hole then lets bring up the specs of Tholme and compare it with Rahn, the man who while wounded from days of torture, blitzed Boc. As you can see, they have the same dexterity and strength and Tholme has higher concentration. Furthermore, Tholme has a higher pain threshold, better reflects, speed, fortitude and slightly better base and group attacks.





Also, you made a terrible lapse of judgement by constantly detailing the power of amped Boc, but this isn’t a battle between Tholme vs amped Boc, its Tholme vs Boc. Boc can only be amped when in the Valley of the Jedi, but versus debates have to be on neutral ground. So, if Qu -while severely injured- can blitz normal Boc, and Tholme is faster, stronger and has better attack damage, then by the logic YOU brought to this debate, Boc is massacred.

As non-amped, he was seemingly weaker then Sariss who lasted more than two seconds against Qu and actually clashed blades with him. Qu makes a point of saying “Sariss is the only one... I fear”, which means he is taking non-amped Boc into account and didn’t see him as much of a threat as Sariss. Qu goes as far as to say Boc “is a crude individual that lacks both tact and teeth.”



The idea that Sariss was stronger than Boc before he was amped is further supported by the fact that she was Jerec’s chief advisor and trained almost every dark jedi in DF2 (sparing Boc, Maw and Jerec). Also a strange detail in The Dark Forces Saga Guide, Jerec took Boc as a quasi-apprentice, meaning he did not focus his time honing Boc’s skills and Boc was previously untrained during the height of the Empire.


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Whilst the leg is injured, it has not impeded his ability to fight and keep up with opponents. wrote:

then why bother mentioning it then?

He also kept up with Sora Bulq in their first duel with his injured leg, wrote:

so now you’re painting it like it affected him. Which is it?

I want to point out how amazing it for Tholme (a man with a damaged leg) to keep up with Bulq who claimed “Mace Windu himself could no longer defeat me!” Though I feel like Bulq was patting his back a little too hard, but if Bulq could keep up with Windu on Ruul, then it really is impressive that Tholme is keeping up with Bulq. wrote:

so you mention his injured leg not impeding his ability to fight and now mention twice on how his leg is injured? The duel on ruul wasn’t much of a duel. More of a spar If anything, poking at each other with mace getting the upper hand in the end and leaving to assist the other jedi against ventress. Which mace noted he needed all his skills to repel. (will come back to that)







also this is classic ABC logic. Just cause A did well against B doesn’t mean C can do well against A. there are many variables that contribute to a fight not that that matters as sora and maces “duel” was short with mace looking the better. Not to mention vos preformed better against sora then tholme did and vos was resisting the darkside and fought an opponent prior.

It’s obvious that Bulq didn’t just let him go as Bulq is furious when he couldn’t find him and points out how dangerous Tholme escaping was to his cloning program. wrote:

he cut a pipe blasting his face with smoke and fled. Cool, and no shit he’d note that. A jedi is hiding in his cloning facility that knows how to hide, Something that you pointed out like…post 1 of course he will be angry and call him dangerous.

he still lasted longer than Volfe Karkko, Aayla Secura, Salgé Tasha, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr and numerous nightsisters swarming him. Again this was after five months of guerrilla fighting on Tholme’s part and the added tension of having to fight Vos while in a dark side rage. wrote:

volfe was doing mind games and vos needed to be amped by tholme, aayla and master zao. Not applicable to tholme as he was used to amp him, aalya is sub vos, sariss and qu who are still below boc, and yes they did have a lengthy fight however if one pays attention a bulk of that is only within a quick instance, a large swing a few moves and then tholme is disarmed by cortosis (again) short but sweet

To defend against your point that my using of Anzati assassins in invalid because of their lesser weapon length, there was also the many Morgukai Tholme faced throughout Star Wars: Republic, who wielded vibroblades and in some cases light-pikes, one is equal to the length of a lightsaber, while the other surpasses. And as an example, when fighting the Morgukai Boc, Tholme knocked his pike back and trip up Boc, getting into his inner defence, the man only being saved by his cortosis armband, so grabbing the lekku is still on the table. wrote:

so your saying my counter is invalid because they used other weapons? You said he can grapple and tag people showing the claw wielding ones which I proved is easy enough to do but my counter is wrong cause other enemies had staffs and swords? And that doesn’t change that boc can retaliate with a force based attack, something those assassins cant do. Also he didn’t get within his guard as he clearly raises his arm to block the lightsaber with the cortosis he knows is there. He legit says cortosis alloy. Is it getting in someone’s guard if they block with armor they know stops your weapon? And in turn gives them an advantage? So sure tholme can certainly try but as you didn’t argue against a force based response and as you provided boc’s power scales with his malice so, force destruction or force lightning blast if tholme gets grabby

Also, you made a terrible lapse of judgement by constantly detailing the power of amped Boc, but this isn’t a battle between Tholme vs amped Boc, its Tholme vs Boc. Boc can only be amped when in the Valley of the Jedi, but versus debates have to be on neutral ground. So, if Qu -while severely injured- can blitz normal Boc, and Tholme is faster, stronger and has better attack damage, then by the logic YOU brought to this debate, Boc is massacred. wrote:

it is actually you who made a mistake a great many as a matter in fact. This IS a battle about tholme vs amped boc. As stated by Darthant66 who assigned the characters. So boc>sariss holds. Hate to break it to you man but that’s a fake source.










fan source book, noted under homebrew in the saga wiki, fandom comics extending well past when the rpg game stats were being made 2011-17 when they ended in 2010. And also why make several more clone wars book when they already have one and include many of the same characters. Fake source. But on a fluke it is valid, I can play with it. Behold dark woman v tholme




dark woman edges out. And the dark woman gets beaten by a pre prime vader as shown both in the comic and the source. Jerec scales to rival a far more powerful vader, with sariss being a notch below and valley boc being above her as per novel quote.





valley jerec>|>rotj vader(~jerec |>sariss)>>>>anh vader>dark woman>tholme

with valley boc slipping in somewhere between | |

As non-amped, he was seemingly weaker then Sariss who lasted more than two seconds against Qu and actually clashed blades with him. Qu makes a point of saying “Sariss is the only one... I fear”, which means he is taking non-amped Boc into account and didn’t see him as much of a threat as Sariss. Qu goes as far as to say Boc “is a crude individual that lacks both tact and teeth.” wrote:

I wonder why he says that? Oh! Is it actually because she is better than him?




Higher HP, higher threshold, equal FP and use of force, equal sth, better dex, better def ref, better melee damage if you wish to count that. Only thing he wins in is will ref. no wonder he fears her and as mentioned books can take precedence over stats so boc being more powerful then sariss holds once again.



to the ventress point. This is a relatively early ventress a still dark disciple ventress as she was working with other members such as bulq and to support my above chain we have this.



so amp boc~jerec~vader>>ventress~early mace>sora>tholme


honestly the scaling chains keep coming, kneel before bocseid