TPM Darth Maul vs SF Darth Malak

LadyKulvax wrote:First of all, the source is quite blatantly IU Omniscient. It doesn't make any sense if you look at it in any other way. Pretty much the whole SWTOR brigade will tell you the same thing.

The ritual literally still has Kun in his body even after it is over. It isn't destroyed until the wall of light literally destroys it. What happens to Kun isn't even death, he uses the ritual to become so powerful that he can transfer his essence to anywhere without any anchor and take on other bodies. He's essentially, fundamentally, the same as Palpatine and Tenebrae in this manner.

This is where it gets important. If Tenebrae, who is fundamentally the same as Kun in terms of how he exists as a being, is not included in the statement because of his present day existence. Then exactly the same thing applies to Exar Kun.

I've already addressed the Ajunta Pall argument.

I don't see how them existing as a spirit makes them exempt from the quote, like yeh his much more powerful spirit form is a current threat but that doesn't exempt his much weaker living form from the quote, same with Vitiate, the quote has already proven to be demonstrably false as Pall cannot be > Kun or Malak, I didn't see any good point made for the Pall argument you just said they were powered by more than the Star Map, which yeh they were but the other sources of power like Korriban Nexus would definitely be less significant than the SF at 300% efficiency

Vaelias wrote:Pall > Vitiate boys

See nothing wrong with this statement

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:First of all, the source is quite blatantly IU Omniscient. It doesn't make any sense if you look at it in any other way. Pretty much the whole SWTOR brigade will tell you the same thing.

The ritual literally still has Kun in his body even after it is over. It isn't destroyed until the wall of light literally destroys it. What happens to Kun isn't even death, he uses the ritual to become so powerful that he can transfer his essence to anywhere without any anchor and take on other bodies. He's essentially, fundamentally, the same as Palpatine and Tenebrae in this manner.

This is where it gets important. If Tenebrae, who is fundamentally the same as Kun in terms of how he exists as a being, is not included in the statement because of his present day existence. Then exactly the same thing applies to Exar Kun.

I've already addressed the Ajunta Pall argument.

I don't see how them existing as a spirit makes them exempt from the quote, like yeh his much more powerful spirit form is a current threat but that doesn't exempt his much weaker living form from the quote,

It's like you read someone else's post... you've addressed literally nothing with this. Oh, and, even if that were even remotely close to relevant as a rebuttal, you're assuming that the exemptions here are for living people only. Which would mean Vitiate isn't exempt, given he is at his core quite literally a body-swapping entity. He clearly is exempt though. So why? The exemption is not about whether you're alive or dead but whether or not you're historical only.

Vaelias wrote:the quote has already proven to be demonstrably false as Pall cannot be > Kun or Malak

You've proven literally nothing, nor has anyone else on this site regarding this quote.

Vaelias wrote:I didn't see any good point made for the Pall argument you just said they were powered by more than the Star Map

That's not even the central part of what I argued. It's an added point that only conflates the issue with this supposedly binding scaling chain.

Vaelias wrote:Which yeh they were but the other sources of power like Korriban Nexus would definitely be less significant than the SF at 300% efficiency

Holy fuck is the Korriban nexus not the amps I was talking about.

Also, what's the Star Forge being able to produce ships at 300% the rate the Sith assumed it could, relevant to anything we just talked about????

It's like you read someone else's post... you've addressed literally nothing with this. Oh, and, even if that were even remotely close to relevant as a rebuttal, you're assuming that the exemptions here are for living people only. Which would mean Vitiate isn't exempt, given he is at his core quite literally a body-swapping entity. He clearly is exempt though. So why? The exemption is not about whether you're alive or dead but whether or not you're historical only.

What???
Tbh I thought it was like you read someone else's post when you said 

The ritual literally still has Kun in his body even after it is over. It isn't destroyed until the wall of light literally destroys it. What happens to Kun isn't even death, he uses the ritual to become so powerful that he can transfer his essence to anywhere without any anchor and take on other bodies. He's essentially, fundamentally, the same as Palpatine and Tenebrae in this manner.

So you said that  'The quote clearly excludes present day/modern Sith Lords.' and that 300 years ago is history 
'He died three hundred years before the Encyclopedia was written, how the hell is he not part of history by then?'


So I was making a point about the distinction between Kun's spirit incarnation and his living one, the Spirit incarnation of course being the current threat, and also the one that is far more powerful so I'm not 'assuming that the exemptions here are for living people only' quite the opposite, I'm saying the spirit incarnations (being current and not historic) would be not be included in the quote but that does not exempt the living incarnations, that are historic from being included in the quote. so if you are using that quote then you are also saying Pall > Vitiate & Kun because there are clear distinctions in power between different incarnations

That's not even the central part of what I argued. It's an added point that only conflates the issue with this supposedly binding scaling chain.

Well if this is what you are referring to as the central part of what you argued

The entire basis of the scaling is based in the assumption that Ajunta Pall and Darth Malak at their base levels of power are either the same or that Malak's is greater. But it's entirely possible that base Pall is > base Malak and the amps they were getting from their respective sources of power might not even make up for that, regardless of the difference in magnitude.

Then its still wrong, you noted earlier that 'That's assuming that this entirely head-canon scaling is infallible'
when tbh this 'central part' of your argument seems far more like head canon to me 

the amps they were getting from their respective sources of power might not even make up for that

theres a quote for that, that answers that question perfectly




you cant just pretend this doesnt exist, The Star Forge is directly stated to give Malak far more power than Kun and Sadow, you can debate how this doesn't lock Kun as much as you want (and I actually think your recent argument in your recent blog is pretty decent btw) but there is no debunk for it clearly locking Sadow, this quote quit literally answers your question, the SF at 300% definitely will have made up for any gap that might exist between base Malak and base Pall, not to mention Malak has far more impressive showings and accolades, so I doubt base Pall would be anywhere near base Malak

Holy fuck is the Korriban nexus not the amps I was talking about.

alright it was only one example calm down 

Also, what's the Star Forge being able to produce ships at 300% the rate the Sith assumed it could, relevant to anything we just talked about????

Well... the SF is working at 300% efficiency 

Vaelias wrote:

It's like you read someone else's post... you've addressed literally nothing with this. Oh, and, even if that were even remotely close to relevant as a rebuttal, you're assuming that the exemptions here are for living people only. Which would mean Vitiate isn't exempt, given he is at his core quite literally a body-swapping entity. He clearly is exempt though. So why? The exemption is not about whether you're alive or dead but whether or not you're historical only.

What???
Tbh I thought it was like you read someone else's post when you said 

The ritual literally still has Kun in his body even after it is over. It isn't destroyed until the wall of light literally destroys it. What happens to Kun isn't even death, he uses the ritual to become so powerful that he can transfer his essence to anywhere without any anchor and take on other bodies. He's essentially, fundamentally, the same as Palpatine and Tenebrae in this manner.

So you said that  'The quote clearly excludes present day/modern Sith Lords.' and that 300 years ago is history
'He died three hundred years before the Encyclopedia was written, how the hell is he not part of history by then?'


So I was making a point about the distinction between Kun's spirit incarnation and his living one, the Spirit incarnation of course being the current threat, and also the one that is far more powerful so I'm not 'assuming that the exemptions here are for living people only' quite the opposite, I'm saying the spirit incarnations (being current and not historic) would be not be included in the quote but that does not exempt the living incarnations, that are historic from being included in the quote. so if you are using that quote then you are also saying Pall > Vitiate & Kun because there are clear distinctions in power between different incarnations

Nothing you just said makes any sense in terms of what I'm telling you:

1.I just told you why ritual Kun and living Kun are the same thing. His body doesn't get destroyed until after the ritual, by the wall of light:

Star Wars Databank: Yavin IV wrote:The Jedi task force succeeded in killing Kun's body, but the assault also laid waste to many of Yavin 4's jungles and killed what few Massassi were left.

2.Exar Kun is now more essence than physical form, much like Vitiate is and much like Sidious is. Both of whom get called spirits despite the fact they never really are, their physical forms die but because they're more essence than physical form, they come back. A bunch of quotes make this clear:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity

&

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

&

Ak'ghal Usar & Outlander, Knights of the Fallen Empire wrote:"The stragglers I found all spoke of the Dark Lord's ascendance into an immortal spirit. Beyond my reach and my wrath."

"You're saying he destroyed this place to become immortal? Sounds familiar."

&

SWTOR Galactic History 61: The Brotherhood is Broken wrote:But Exar Kun had sensed the approach of the Republic forces and laid preparations. Summoning his loyal Massassi warriors, he performed a dreadful ritual that drained them of their life essence. Exar Kun became a spirit of pure darkness.

The Jedi in the fleet sensed Exar Kun’s actions. Led by Nomi, they created a “wall of light” through the Force. Exar Kun found himself trapped within the temples of Yavin Four for eternity, screaming with rage and helpless to escape.

Note: This quote also supports what I said in #1.

&



It is overwhelmingly clear that Kun isn't so much dead, as his essence is trapped in the temples. He is fundamentally the same as both Vitiate and Sidious.

If Vitiate is not included because he's active in the present day, isn't only historical, and is essentially the same thing as Kun; an entity that is more essence and energy than physical form. Then Exar Kun is also not included because he's both exactly the same and is active in his own right.

Vaelias wrote:

That's not even the central part of what I argued. It's an added point that only conflates the issue with this supposedly binding scaling chain.

Well if this is what you are referring to as the central part of what you argued

The entire basis of the scaling is based in the assumption that Ajunta Pall and Darth Malak at their base levels of power are either the same or that Malak's is greater. But it's entirely possible that base Pall is > base Malak and the amps they were getting from their respective sources of power might not even make up for that, regardless of the difference in magnitude.

Then its still wrong, you noted earlier that 'That's assuming that this entirely head-canon scaling is infallible'
when tbh this 'central part'of your argument seems far more like head canon to me

the amps they were getting from their respective sources of power might not even make up for that

theres a quote for that, that answers that question perfectly



you cant just pretend this doesnt exist, The Star Forge is directly stated to give Malak far more power than Kun and Sadow, you can debate how this doesn't lock Kun as much as you want (and I actually think your recent argument in your recent blog is pretty decent btw) but there is no debunk for it clearly locking Sadow, this quote quit literally answers your question, the SF at 300% definitely will have made up for any gap that might exist between base Malak and base Pall, not to mention Malak has far more impressive showings and accolades, so I doubt base Pall would be anywhere near base Malak

The entire point of this argument is that the SWTOR:E quote contradicts the Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character quote. When the SWTOR:E quote puts Pall above Malak, it is also in contradiction to the Malak quote, inherently because of the fact that Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun both scale beyond him directly. You cannot use the Malak quote as extra evidence when it's literally the thing coming under scrutiny here.

I'll be succinct: Ajunta Pall's indirectly stated use of an inferior source of power to the one Malak used is directly in contention with this source which would put Ajunta Pall above Darth Malak in an absolute raw power superiority statement. Which a comparison of amplifications that is inferred and not even stated directly, cannot contradict.

Both you and Kopecz have made this big claim that it's straight up wrong and yet your only evidence so far is an appeal to a fanon line of logic regarding respective amps.

You don't need other evidence via feats and accolades to prove base Pall is > base Malak when we literally have this SWTOR:E quote leaving us with this fact. Thus the only logical reconciliation between what Pall says and what the SWTOR:E states outright, is what I'm saying.

And how am I acting as if it doesn't exist when I am directly addressing its relevance against a quote 8 years more up-to-date.

Vaelias wrote:

Holy fuck is the Korriban nexus not the amps I was talking about.

alright it was only one example calm down

I don't need to calm down, in fact I would say you need to prove that the SF amp Malak is getting is indeed stronger than Korriban's amp when Korriban itself has some of the most ludicrous nexus wank statements ever, such as being > VOTJ when at one of its weakest states. And then we can talk about the other amps.

Vaelias wrote:

Also, what's the Star Forge being able to produce ships at 300% the rate the Sith assumed it could, relevant to anything we just talked about???

Well... the SF is working at 300% efficiency 

And? It's talking about ship production rate, and the whole 300% deal is just it operating at three times the speed of what the Sith assumed it could achieve. Sith who don't even really understand it, only Revan ever did. Which is why he was the only one smart enough to leave that shit alone.

Yeh i get what you are saying and it seems we agree on all of this but what I am pointing out is that pre ritual Kun is far less powerful than post ritual Kun/spirit Kun, post ritual Kun being the current threat on Yavin and pre ritual Kun being a historic sith, so why would the quote exempt his pre ritual iteration ?
i know you are saying they are the same person, which I am not refuting, however there is a huge distinction in their power levels 

The entire point of this argument is that the SWTOR:E quote contradicts the Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character quote. When the SWTOR:E quote puts Pall above Malak, it is also in contradiction to the Malak quote, inherently because of the fact that Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun both scale beyond him directly. You cannot use the Malak quote as extra evidence when it's literally the thing coming under scrutiny here.

although you were arguing that Malak's star forge amp wasn't sufficient enough to make up for the gap between base Pall and base Malak, and this quote is the answer, you cant argue for that point when the answer is in this quote lol, the IU quote that goes against the very nature of the Star Forge being > Star Map does not take precedence over a OOU Leland Chee endorsed quote at all. 

And how am I acting as if it doesn't exist when I am directly addressing its relevance against a quote 8 years more up-to-date.

Well you said that we don't know how big Malak's SF amp was, when this quote literally exists lol

Vaelias wrote:Yeh i get what you are saying and it seems we agree on all of this but what I am pointing out is that pre ritual Kun is far less powerful than post ritual Kun/spirit Kun, post ritual Kun being the current threat on Yavin and pre ritual Kun being a historic sith, so why would the quote exempt his pre ritual iteration ?
i know you are saying they are the same person, which I am not refuting, however there is a huge distinction in their power levels

Exar Kun is not included in the quote at all, that's the point. He isn't divied up between incarnations. The power levels don't matter here, that's not what the distinction is based on at all. I also struggle to see how a Kun who has had his power extinguished and is reliant on the focal points to sustain his essence, even remotely compares to fully powered living Kun, who benefited from the ritual before he engaged the combined Jedi Order in a battle of powers and barely lost. Losing his body as a result.

Vaelias wrote:

The entire point of this argument is that the SWTOR:E quote contradicts the Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character quote. When the SWTOR:E quote puts Pall above Malak, it is also in contradiction to the Malak quote, inherently because of the fact that Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun both scale beyond him directly. You cannot use the Malak quote as extra evidence when it's literally the thing coming under scrutiny here.

although you were arguing that Malak's star forge amp wasn't sufficient enough to make up for the gap between base Pall and base Malak, and this quote is the answer, you cant argue for that point when the answer is in this quote lol, the IU quote that goes against the very nature of the Star Forge being > Star Map does not take precedence over a OOU Leland Chee endorsed quote at all.

You can't ignore this quote either, which specifically means Ajunta Pall is more powerful than Darth Malak. Despite the fact Malak's source of power is vastly greater than what the Exiles were using. Given Pall's feats of power such as enthralling the entire Sith species, accolades such as being more powerful than Ku'ar Danar and Remulus Dreypa. Also take into account Cheth's very strong arguments for Ajunta Pall > Reborn Krayt, then I can definitely see base Pall as stronger. Not that, again, this quote needs more supporting evidence.

Also, SWTOR:E is an IU Omniscient source which Leland Chee also reviewed. Given his presence in the credits of the book. It was literally written with help from LFL.

Vaelias wrote:

And how am I acting as if it doesn't exist when I am directly addressing its relevance against a quote 8 years more up-to-date.

Well you said that we don't know how big Malak's SF amp was, when this quote literally exists lol

You should already realise why that's genuinely not the point.

Uliq is sub Pall. I like it

Yes, redeemed Ulic Qel-Droma who specifically reconnected with the Force and became one with it, literally made a Jedi Master by Nomi. Is a Sith Lord.

If an old muhammad ali who can barely move had renounced fighting, that doesnt remove him from the annals of boxing history. Uliq losing his force connection and his subsequent redemption doesnt exempt Uliq the Sith Lord from the quote

Ulic was a Jedi when he died, the comic arc is literally called Redemption. He's given the title Jedi Master from Nomi, Head of the Order. He becomes one with the Force upon his death. Well before any of that, he renounces the Sith, and integrally aids in the destruction of the Sith Order. He is no longer a Sith Lord and hadn't been for ten years before he became a Jedi and reconnected with the Force. This is absolutely undeniable, it very clearly does not cover Ulic Qel-Droma. But please, continue down the line of the idea that certain earlier incarnations of characters are susceptible to the quote even if later ones aren't. That'll be fun.

Ummm, thats always been the case. I dont think anyone thinks Darth Revan is exempt from Sheev quotes because he later becomes a jedi.

thats pretty obvious lol vader comes to mind instantly in this case.

Just so it isn't lost to the annals of SI, me and KOB discussed this further on Discord and came to the following conclusions:

1.The quote is arguably generic and thus a throw-away, which I don't agree with given the people responsible for the source in question, which includes Leland Chee.

OR

2.The quote means that Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, Freedon Nadd and Ajunta Pall are > Darth Malak, Darth Nihilus, et. al. Assuming that the relevancy of the quote applies only to the last incarnations of the characters. I say this on the basis that I assume the quote doesn't cover any version of Vitiate given what the source says earlier on about the Sith Emperor. KOB didn't agree with this because of how accolades can generally apply to different incarnations of characters.

OR

3.The quote would encompass earlier incarnations, as KOB suggests. Which would mean and necessitate that Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow are more powerful than Sith Ulic Qel-Droma, Novel Vitiate, Cinnagar!Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Nihilus, etc. Noting that Freedon Nadd's place is nebulous at the moment given the Great Temple/Sith spirit council scenes.

The debate ended there.

I would like to add that if the quote applies to previous iterations of characters, which has always been the case, peak Kun is likewise capped by Pall. This, along with the other consequences AP mentioned, is obviously absurd. So Im not inclined to use it. But if one does choose to use it, then one must abide by these autistic consequences

Peak Kun is literally the same being for thousands of years, so no, that's not how it works.

?

Kun's ability to be objectively beyond the ancients due to binding events doesn't somehow vanish once you actually reconcile the quote with general over-all abilities. And given that the Exar Kun who is exempt from the quote in the first place is literally the same incarnation he's been in since before his body dies, then no Ajunta Pall is absoluteky not > peak Kun even given this quote.

What makes Kun objectively beyond the ancients and what makes any version of him exempt from the quote

1.Exar Kun's objectively placed over all of them in TCSWE. He's also repeatedly stated to be or shows himself to be, superior to the ancients throughout the comics and in other sources. It is a long-standing narrative, well built into the lore.

2.Given the only logical reasons for Vitiate's exemption from the quote would also apply to Exar Kun; which I've made clear throughout the thread, then all of the above remains as valid as ever.

Im sorry. How does your older quote that has Kun>all prior sith override this one if the Malak quote doesnt?

Also per your admission, older iterations of Vitiate arent safe from this quote. Which also means older versions of Kun, like Totj Kun, isnt safe either

Because the Malak quote is in direct contradiction, the Kun quote is not given that there's a good reason as to why Kun wouldn't be involved in the Encyclopedia quote at all.

EDIT: Also, I assume you'd concede to Kun being narratively and demonstratably stronger than the Ancient Sith even without TCSWE?

I admitted nothing, I stated your own stance and even stated that I don't agree with your use of methodology in this case given the fact the source treats Vitiate as The Son 2: Electric Boogaloo on earlier pages. It's clear that the IU Omniscient beings who wrote it weren't thinking about earlier incarnations of characters when they made such a specifically worded claim as this. Other IU sourcebooks from aeons passed have been argued to not differentiate between incarnations. Namely ones concerning Vader, etc.

The Kun quote is in direct contradiction lol.
>Kun quote asserts Kun is above all prior sith
>Pall quote asserts Pall is above all sith not buried in the Valley of the Dark Lords(hint:Kun)

This notion that because Kun is still around as of swtor as a spectre, hes not being included in the quote is frankly absurd. A large percentage of the ancient sith are still lingering in spectral form, and the idea that Bioware wouldnt consider Ragnos, Kun or any of the other ancient sith who exist as spirits  historical sith is also absurd. And unfortunately for Kun, Bioware doesnt consider him to be The Son 2.0, leaving without that excuse.

And again this notion that quotes dont extend to prior iterations is also nonsensical.  Do we think Sidious' supremacy quotes really meant to say:

"Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live...except not really because there was this guy who used to be a sith but became a jedi a day before he died would totally mop the floor with him"

KingofBlades wrote:I would like to add that if the quote applies to previous iterations of characters, which has always been the case, peak Kun is likewise capped by Pall. This, along with the other consequences AP mentioned, is obviously absurd. So Im not inclined to use it. But if one does choose to use it, then one must abide by these autistic consequences

This was exactly my point