Exar Kun vs Darth Maul (TCW Season 7)

Tybalt wrote:@Vaelias I'll assume you didn't see my post, since it's the only one you didn't respond to. Your basis for suggesting that Maul has comparable Force augmentation to Yoda is incorrect, since lightsaber technique =/= Force augmentation.

very likely its only referring to technical skill yes, but there's also a change its not, nothing is confirmed and its worth noting, keep the other quotes i provided in mind, Maul is doing exceedingly well as an apprentice, and he was meant to surpass Sidious in power, hes also "the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy" which implies he is the most powerful warrior in the galaxy, he is defo up there with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by TPM, couple that with all his supremacy quotes, I think its pretty clear where he stands

Vaelias wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:



Some nice source on spirit Kun being weaker. I can find about 8 or so more if you want

Well yeh Kun will have lost a lot of power and Skill being trapped in his 'uneasy slumber' when first coming out of his slumber he is significantly weaker. yes, but youve failed to include the part of that first quote that states Kun grows far more powerful, as a spirit recently awakened he is obviously going to be weaker than his living incarnation, but then Kuns spirit is constantly growing until he is powerful enough to contend with Luke Skywalker in power terms, by then he definitely has surpassed his Living incarnation


He has been constantly growing since his awakening and feeding off Kyp's hate. 'Still not ready' is implying hes growing towards that goal which we ultimately see him achieve.

Go ahead and provide those 8 more sources but ultimately all of those are referring to the version of Kun that has just woken up from a millennia of slumber and 'Needing to restore his lost reserves' and not the version of Kun that has just grown 'far more powerful' after feeding on Kyps hate or the verison that just defeated Luke Skywalker

I think you are making the mistake of equating Kun + Kyp and just Kun. When he was possessing Kyp his powers were obviously much stronger, but still limited as per Dark Side Sourcebook. And Kun was the lion's share of the power in that instance, not Kyp. Kun had to flee and recover from the energy he spent to defeat Luke because he sent Kyp away and killed Gantoris. At the time Kun was stated as only having Streen to draw from, he was still explicitly able to fodderize all of the students under his own, only when Vodo's and Luke's spirit intervened with the wall of light was he defeated. The Jedi later surmised that the only reason they were able to beat him in the first place is because he was weakened

Vaelias wrote:

Tybalt wrote:@Vaelias I'll assume you didn't see my post, since it's the only one you didn't respond to. Your basis for suggesting that Maul has comparable Force augmentation to Yoda is incorrect, since lightsaber technique =/= Force augmentation.

very likely its only referring to technical skill yes, but there's also a change its not, nothing is confirmed and its worth noting, keep the other quotes i provided in mind, Maul is doing exceedingly well as an apprentice, and he was meant to surpass Sidious in power, hes also "the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy" which implies he is the most powerful warrior in the galaxy, he is defo up there with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by TPM, couple that with all his supremacy quotes, I think its pretty clear where he stands

The three quotes you provided all explicitly refer to his lightsaber skills. He may well have the potential to surpass Sidious but he's not even in the same tier by 32 BBY.

As for the other four quotes that you provided on the first page, none of them refer to Maul as "the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy" as you claim they do. Let's go over them.

The first says "Maul is the ultimate Jedi enemy. His skills as a warrior seem to exceed even those of the great Qui-Gon Jinn (and Maul is just the apprentice)." - This quote acknowledges that the Sith are the ultimate enemies of the Jedi, and explicitly implies that Sidious is more of a threat.

The second says "The Jedi is unprepared for the encounter because the Sith were believed to be extinct. It is clear from this duel that the Sith are very much alive and more powerful than ever." - This quote refers to the Sith being destroyed 1000 years ago, and follows Banite scaling.

The third says "He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order." - This follows Banite scaling.

The last says "One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history," - This follows Banite scaling.

NotAA3 wrote:They don't. Ahsoka's fight with Maul far surpasses anything Traya has done, given that Traya's far below Kun who is sub-TPM Maul. Exar Kun vs Darth Maul (TCW Season 7) - Page 3 3344068304

Well, since the quote is not inferring that Maul>Traya, Ahsoka has nothing to suggest she could amount to Traya's greatness. :3

NotAA3 wrote:How is it ludicrous? The only thing you've done so far is assert that certain things are true without actually proving them. It doesn't matter if Ahsoka doesn't have a bunch of feats on par with Traya's, because her one feat - which is vastly above all of Traya's - makes it clear she can replicate all of the latter's showings.

So then the question would be: Why didn't she? Why didn't she use those abilities you assume she has in her times of struggle? If you had a gun in your pocket at the time you were getting robbed but didn't use it, why? Well, because you didn't have one to begin with.

NotAA3 wrote:Her not showing power on that level doesn't preclude her from being that high: it just makes her power level unknown. You need to provide proof she's not on that level to contradict the quote.

It seems you place Maul>>Vader despite Ahsoka (who contended very well with Maul pre-prime) struggled with Vader in Rebels.

NotAA3 wrote:How is the source not that great? The source is C-Canon, and thus, binding - unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Is this not the source that stated that Ruin created the Sith?

NotAA3 wrote:What do you mean by a "plot tool"? That sounds like a completely arbitrary description, so you can dismiss quotes that don't fit your bias. Again, the source is C-Canon, and thus, binding - unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Fictional franchises use PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) all the time. Hyping up Maul is something that appeals to the reader even if it might not be true. It is a good accolade for the guy, don't get me wrong, but it becomes extremely questionable when it reshapes SW as a whole.

NotAA3 wrote:I don't need evidence to support a stance that is already codified in canon. The quote by itself is evidence - due to it being binding - I don't need any further proof. In fact, you're the one who needs to prove evidence against the quote, rather than arbitrary dismissals that are not backed up by anything in LFL's canon policy.

Leeland himself stated that quotes and sources can be debatable. Why not this one?

NotAA3 wrote:Avellone confirmed that Nihilus didn't do so on account of any sort of extreme power and that the "feat" was accomplished moreso because of Nihilus's unique ties to the ship:

Avellone didn't make that very clear at all in the actual story. The KOTOR 2 Prima Guide states that he used a "dark side power" and there are far more quotes supporting that he did hold it together rather than whatever Avellone is referring to. Maybe he wanted it to be seen that way, but it kinda goes like this: An engineer creates a faucet that does not shoot water according to him. When turned on, it shot water. The engineer didn't expect or want the faucet to shoot water, but it did anyway.

NotAA3 wrote:Uhhhh... what? I'm not an expert on ships, but isn't Nihilus's ship only 1200m long, whereas a Star Destroyer is 1600m long? I'm pretty sure it's not "12 times larger", but if you could provide a citation for this, that'd be great.

Yeah, you are totally right about that. Sorry, I probably should've checked a source before I just spewed that. I was thinking of another ship of the same name.  

Apologies for the lateness of my response HP. My computer was being rather annoying.

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Well demonstratably, an Exile who was nearly in her prime as of K2, is stated to not stand a chance against the remnant life energies of Kressh in his tomb. That's an even higher statement of superiority than Nihilus gets That alone is evidence.

Then there's the fact the SWTOR:E has Darth Nihilus below all of the Dark Lords in the Valley on Korriban.

I'd be remiss to point out the rest of the indications since you're absolutely adamant that they're meaningless.

If the Dark lords in the Valley are the most powerful of all time then they are also more powerful than Kun, you cant just make an exception for your favorite character lol

Please, don't throw your childish accusations around like LeGenD in lieu of an actual argument. Kun is considered a present Sith by SWTOR media, not a historical one:

The Brotherhood is Broken Codex Entry wrote:But Exar Kun had sensed the approach of the Republic forces and laid preparations. Summoning his loyal Massassi warriors, he performed a dreadful ritual that drained them of their life essence. Exar Kun became a spirit of pure darkness.
The Jedi in the fleet sensed Exar Kun’s actions. Led by Nomi, they created a “wall of light” through the Force. Exar Kun found himself trapped within the temples of Yavin Four for eternity, screaming with rage and helpless to escape.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin Four Part IV Codex Entry wrote:A few hundred years ago, the Jedi Order thought they could cleanse Yavin 4 of its dark influence. They were more aggressive then. I’m actually impressed. The Jedi bombarded the world from orbit with a destructive manifestation of light side power in the hopes it would free the moon from its dark embrace. “The attacking Jedi destroyed much of the life on Yavin 4, which they later worked to restore to its previous state. They thought they’d won, that they’d removed the influence of the dark side. How wrong they were. The Massassi are still here. The dark side is still present. I would not be surprised if Exar Kun’s spirit remains, waiting for someone–a Jedi like myself, perhaps–to find him….

Timeline 10: The Exar Kun War wrote:The Republic drove Kun back to Yavin 4, where the Dark Lord enacted a ritual, sacrificing his armies to keep his spirit alive. Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

Vaelias wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:



Some nice source on spirit Kun being weaker. I can find about 8 or so more if you want

Well yeh Kun will have lost a lot of power and Skill being trapped in his 'uneasy slumber' when first coming out of his slumber he is significantly weaker. yes, but youve failed to include the part of that first quote that states Kun grows far more powerful, as a spirit recently awakened he is obviously going to be weaker than his living incarnation, but then Kuns spirit is constantly growing until he is powerful enough to contend with Luke Skywalker in power terms, by then he definitely has surpassed his Living incarnation


He has been constantly growing since his awakening and feeding off Kyp's hate. 'Still not ready' is implying hes growing towards that goal which we ultimately see him achieve.

Go ahead and provide those 8 more sources but ultimately all of those are referring to the version of Kun that has just woken up from a millennia of slumber and 'Needing to restore his lost reserves' and not the version of Kun that has just grown 'far more powerful' after feeding on Kyps hate or the verison that just defeated Luke Skywalker.

He doesn't grow 'far more powerful' he grows 'very powerful'. None of which can be used to claim he's ~ prime Kun nevermind > prime Kun.

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:So are we all forgetting Maul has saber skills that possibly rival TPM Yoda, meaning his force aug is on a similar level, he was also trained by Sidious to eventually surpass him, and his apprenticeship is impeccable

"Thus far your apprenticeship has been impeccable. You have never wavered in your intent, and you have executed your tasks flawlessly. Your skill as a sword master is peerless."

In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second’s hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.

Given the only reliable comparisons you can make between Maul and Kun come through Luke, who is demonstratably more skilled than Maul. I really don't care if Maul's possibly > TPM Yoda. Though, I doubt that.

That relies on JA Kun being weaker than Living Kun which he's not lol

I'll leave Decaf to this, but how the hell does Kun's power have anything to do with teaching his lightsaber skill to his thralls?

VictreebelVictr wrote:Apologies for the lateness of my response HP. My computer was being rather annoying.

Don't worry about it, you could have responded next year for all I cared. In fact, it'll probably be a couple of days before I reply myself.

NotAA3 wrote:

VictreebelVictr wrote:Apologies for the lateness of my response HP. My computer was being rather annoying.

Don't worry about it, you could have responded next year for all I cared. In fact, it'll probably be a couple of days before I reply myself.

Take your time.

Yeah, I put it together like three times, and when I posted it, somehow over half of my debate was deleted.

I almost drop-kicked my computer out the back door.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Well demonstratably, an Exile who was nearly in her prime as of K2, is stated to not stand a chance against the remnant life energies of Kressh in his tomb. That's an even higher statement of superiority than Nihilus gets That alone is evidence.

Then there's the fact the SWTOR:E has Darth Nihilus below all of the Dark Lords in the Valley on Korriban.

I'd be remiss to point out the rest of the indications since you're absolutely adamant that they're meaningless.

If the Dark lords in the Valley are the most powerful of all time then they are also more powerful than Kun, you cant just make an exception for your favorite character lol

Please, don't throw your childish accusations around like LeGenD in lieu of an actual argument. Kun is considered a present Sith by SWTOR media, not a historical one:

The Brotherhood is Broken Codex Entry wrote:But Exar Kun had sensed the approach of the Republic forces and laid preparations. Summoning his loyal Massassi warriors, he performed a dreadful ritual that drained them of their life essence. Exar Kun became a spirit of pure darkness.
The Jedi in the fleet sensed Exar Kun’s actions. Led by Nomi, they created a “wall of light” through the Force. Exar Kun found himself trapped within the temples of Yavin Four for eternity, screaming with rage and helpless to escape.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin Four Part IV Codex Entry wrote:A few hundred years ago, the Jedi Order thought they could cleanse Yavin 4 of its dark influence. They were more aggressive then. I’m actually impressed. The Jedi bombarded the world from orbit with a destructive manifestation of light side power in the hopes it would free the moon from its dark embrace. “The attacking Jedi destroyed much of the life on Yavin 4, which they later worked to restore to its previous state. They thought they’d won, that they’d removed the influence of the dark side. How wrong they were. The Massassi are still here. The dark side is still present. I would not be surprised if Exar Kun’s spirit remains, waiting for someone–a Jedi like myself, perhaps–to find him….

Timeline 10: The Exar Kun War wrote:The Republic drove Kun back to Yavin 4, where the Dark Lord enacted a ritual, sacrificing his armies to keep his spirit alive. Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

Well he's not lol hes still a past sith who lived well before the events of KOTOR so he's still included in 'history' you are basically saying Pall > Kun by using that quote lol
just sounds like you are bending this tbh lul

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:



Some nice source on spirit Kun being weaker. I can find about 8 or so more if you want

Well yeh Kun will have lost a lot of power and Skill being trapped in his 'uneasy slumber' when first coming out of his slumber he is significantly weaker. yes, but youve failed to include the part of that first quote that states Kun grows far more powerful, as a spirit recently awakened he is obviously going to be weaker than his living incarnation, but then Kuns spirit is constantly growing until he is powerful enough to contend with Luke Skywalker in power terms, by then he definitely has surpassed his Living incarnation


He has been constantly growing since his awakening and feeding off Kyp's hate. 'Still not ready' is implying hes growing towards that goal which we ultimately see him achieve.

Go ahead and provide those 8 more sources but ultimately all of those are referring to the version of Kun that has just woken up from a millennia of slumber and 'Needing to restore his lost reserves' and not the version of Kun that has just grown 'far more powerful' after feeding on Kyps hate or the verison that just defeated Luke Skywalker.

He doesn't grow 'far more powerful' he grows 'very powerful'. None of which can be used to claim he's ~ prime Kun nevermind > prime Kun.

i never said JA Kun is > Prime Kun or = Prime Kun, just his base living power, definitely not Post Ritual Power

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Well demonstratably, an Exile who was nearly in her prime as of K2, is stated to not stand a chance against the remnant life energies of Kressh in his tomb. That's an even higher statement of superiority than Nihilus gets That alone is evidence.

Then there's the fact the SWTOR:E has Darth Nihilus below all of the Dark Lords in the Valley on Korriban.

I'd be remiss to point out the rest of the indications since you're absolutely adamant that they're meaningless.

If the Dark lords in the Valley are the most powerful of all time then they are also more powerful than Kun, you cant just make an exception for your favorite character lol

Please, don't throw your childish accusations around like LeGenD in lieu of an actual argument. Kun is considered a present Sith by SWTOR media, not a historical one:

The Brotherhood is Broken Codex Entry wrote:But Exar Kun had sensed the approach of the Republic forces and laid preparations. Summoning his loyal Massassi warriors, he performed a dreadful ritual that drained them of their life essence. Exar Kun became a spirit of pure darkness.
The Jedi in the fleet sensed Exar Kun’s actions. Led by Nomi, they created a “wall of light” through the Force. Exar Kun found himself trapped within the temples of Yavin Four for eternity, screaming with rage and helpless to escape.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin Four Part IV Codex Entry wrote:A few hundred years ago, the Jedi Order thought they could cleanse Yavin 4 of its dark influence. They were more aggressive then. I’m actually impressed. The Jedi bombarded the world from orbit with a destructive manifestation of light side power in the hopes it would free the moon from its dark embrace. “The attacking Jedi destroyed much of the life on Yavin 4, which they later worked to restore to its previous state. They thought they’d won, that they’d removed the influence of the dark side. How wrong they were. The Massassi are still here. The dark side is still present. I would not be surprised if Exar Kun’s spirit remains, waiting for someone–a Jedi like myself, perhaps–to find him….

Timeline 10: The Exar Kun War wrote:The Republic drove Kun back to Yavin 4, where the Dark Lord enacted a ritual, sacrificing his armies to keep his spirit alive. Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

Well he's not lol hes still a past sith who lived well before the events of KOTOR so he's still included in 'history' you are basically saying Pall > Kun by using that quote lol
just sounds like you are bending this tbh lul

You don't decide whether or not he is, the only context that matters is who is considered part of history and who isn't. Kun is a current Sith trapped on Yavin Four and content after this book expands greatly on how active Kun was in this period. You have no argument here.

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:



Some nice source on spirit Kun being weaker. I can find about 8 or so more if you want

Well yeh Kun will have lost a lot of power and Skill being trapped in his 'uneasy slumber' when first coming out of his slumber he is significantly weaker. yes, but youve failed to include the part of that first quote that states Kun grows far more powerful, as a spirit recently awakened he is obviously going to be weaker than his living incarnation, but then Kuns spirit is constantly growing until he is powerful enough to contend with Luke Skywalker in power terms, by then he definitely has surpassed his Living incarnation


He has been constantly growing since his awakening and feeding off Kyp's hate. 'Still not ready' is implying hes growing towards that goal which we ultimately see him achieve.

Go ahead and provide those 8 more sources but ultimately all of those are referring to the version of Kun that has just woken up from a millennia of slumber and 'Needing to restore his lost reserves' and not the version of Kun that has just grown 'far more powerful' after feeding on Kyps hate or the verison that just defeated Luke Skywalker.

He doesn't grow 'far more powerful' he grows 'very powerful'. None of which can be used to claim he's ~ prime Kun nevermind > prime Kun.

i never said JA Kun is > Prime Kun or = Prime Kun, just his base living power, definitely not Post Ritual Power

None of which is relevant if this is your point. Prime Kun is the one that we use. But again, I'm not sure how you can decide which version of living Kun you can compare spirit Kun to.

@VictreebelVictr

Well, since the quote is not inferring that Maul>Traya, Ahsoka has nothing to suggest she could amount to Traya's greatness. :3

Debatable.

So then the question would be: Why didn't she? Why didn't she use those abilities you assume she has in her times of struggle? If you had a gun in your pocket at the time you were getting robbed but didn't use it, why? Well, because you didn't have one to begin with.

The analogy assumes Ahsoka was placed into a scenario where she had to do something like Traya did and failed (i.e. not being able to stop the robbery)... but you haven't provided such a comparison, all you've done is stated that Ahsoka hasn't displayed feats on that level (ignoring the fact that she has by fighting Maul), which doesn't necessarily mean she can't. To turn your analogy back on you, your argument is essentially saying that someone who's never shot a robber couldn't do so, simply because they've never had to due to never being robbed. Do you see my point and the issue with your argument?

It seems you place Maul>>Vader despite Ahsoka (who contended very well with Maul pre-prime) struggled with Vader in Rebels.

Canon isn't at all relevant to Legends - in Legends Vader and Ahsoka never fought, so, yes, it's entirely possible she's above him. This whole argument has been about Legends Maul, I already said there isn't an argument for his Canon iteration.

Is this not the source that stated that Ruin created the Sith?

That quote can be argued to bind Kun, but no, I'm not using it, because I don't view it as legit for that exact reason. I'm referring to the TPM Flapbook, which never states any such thing, and thus can be used to bind Kun below Maul.

Fictional franchises use PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) all the time.

But this is a completely arbitrary designation, and you haven't provided any rationale for it. PIS isn't a valid argument unless you can actually prove a contradiction/give a good reason why something is logically inconceivable. I could just dismiss everything Kun's ever done as PIS, by your standards.

Hyping up Maul is something that appeals to the reader even if it might not be true.

...but it is true. The source is C-Canon, and thus its contents are binding unless explicitly contradicted elsewhere.

It is a good accolade for the guy, don't get me wrong, but it becomes extremely questionable when it reshapes SW as a whole.

...but it doesn't "reshape SW as a whole". Please, provide me evidence for this claim, otherwise, it's totally irrelevant.

Leeland himself stated that quotes and sources can be debatable. Why not this one?

They can be debated, sure, and there's always discussion value in them - the conversation we're having right now is an example. But, that doesn't change the fact that if my interpretation of the quote is correct, and there are no contradictions in the material, it is binding - per LFL's canon policy.

Avellone didn't make that very clear at all in the actual story. The KOTOR 2 Prima Guide states that he used a "dark side power" and there are far more quotes supporting that he did hold it together rather than whatever Avellone is referring to. Maybe he wanted it to be seen that way, but it kinda goes like this: An engineer creates a faucet that does not shoot water according to him. When turned on, it shot water. The engineer didn't expect or want the faucet to shoot water, but it did anyway.

Avellone doesn't need to make it clear in the actual story for his authorial clarification to hold weight and make us consider the details of the feat. It's only in cases of contradiction with the primary material that I'd dismiss Avellone's word, and in this case, you've provided none. That Nihilus uses a "dark side power" to hold it together isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that him holding the ship together is through his unique bond - that could be precisely the power the Prima Guide is talking about (also, I want a full citation, please, if that's okay). It isn't stated anywhere - nor necessitated because of lack of other conclusions - that Nihilus definitively used Telekinesis.

Yeah, you are totally right about that. Sorry, I probably should've checked a source before I just spewed that. I was thinking of another ship of the same name.

Given the amount of times I've heard that it's plausibly IU or 3rd person limited over on CV then it might not even be relevant. Regardless, a vague 'deadlier' statement isn't binding Kun. Not with the absolute mountain of reasons Kun is >>> Maul in power.

Can I confirm that you are talking about this?

We are, indeed.

Great, then let me debunk that then.

This quote refers to the Sith being destroyed 1000 years ago, then says that they have returned and are "deadlier than ever", which follows Banite scaling.

It's a Banite scaling quote.

LadyKulvax wrote:Given the amount of times I've heard that it's plausibly IU or 3rd person limited over on CV then it might not even be relevant. Regardless, a vague 'deadlier' statement isn't binding Kun. Not with the absolute mountain of reasons Kun is >>> Maul in power.

Bro Maul destroyed a barracks when he was 15 and killed some black sun members therefore he stomps Kun

Probably something Erkan would post, nice.

LadyKulvax wrote:Probably something Erkan would post, nice.

Are you talking to me or KingKopecz?

I_Like_Chee wrote:Debatable.

I_Like_Chee wrote:The analogy assumes Ahsoka was placed into a scenario where she had to do something like Traya did and failed (i.e. not being able to stop the robbery)... but you haven't provided such a comparison, all you've done is stated that Ahsoka hasn't displayed feats on that level (ignoring the fact that she has by fighting Maul), which doesn't necessarily mean she can't.

In regards to my analogy, this was stated in case you regarded Canon Vader as << Maul, which you don't. Since that is the case, I agree that the analogy would have had no support for my argument.

A clone of Maul was given difficulty (and lost, though it was sorta a cheap-shot) to Vader if you don't remember:



If Maul is >> Vader, then how would he have put up such a good fight?

I_Like_Chee wrote:To turn your analogy back on you, your argument is essentially saying that someone who's never shot a robber couldn't do so, simply because they've never had to due to never being robbed. Do you see my point and the issue with your argument?

No, my analogy is saying that if someone has the ability to stop himself/herself from getting robbed but chose not to, then they might not have had the power to in the first place.

I_Like_Chee wrote:Canon isn't at all relevant to Legends - in Legends Vader and Ahsoka never fought, so, yes, it's entirely possible she's above him. This whole argument has been about Legends Maul, I already said there isn't an argument for his Canon iteration.

Isn't the battle between Maul and Ahsoka in season 7? Isn't that entire season canon only? Wouldn't that mean Maul does not have his supremacy quotes and Ahsoka isn't remotely close to what you are inferring to be?

I_Like_Chee wrote:That quote can be argued to bind Kun, but no, I'm not using it, because I don't view it as legit for that exact reason. I'm referring to the TPM Flapbook, which never states any such thing, and thus can be used to bind Kun below Maul.

Alrighty, so I guess we agree that the Ruin source book doesn't work out for Maul.

Though this has been stated before, I will give credit to Tybalt for saying it.

Tybalt wrote:Great, then let me debunk that then.

This quote refers to the Sith being destroyed 1000 years ago, then says that they have returned and are "deadlier than ever", which follows Banite scaling.

It's a Banite scaling quote.

I_Like_Chee wrote:...but it doesn't "reshape SW as a whole". Please, provide me evidence for this claim, otherwise, it's totally irrelevant.

It warps the living hell out of all the power scaling and levels that have been established. Same with the Malak>Kun quote. I think I was exaggerating the "SW as a whole part", but you get my point.  

I_Like_Chee wrote:They can be debated, sure, and there's always discussion value in them - the conversation we're having right now is an example. But, that doesn't change the fact that if my interpretation of the quote is correct, and there are no contradictions in the material, it is binding - per LFL's canon policy.

It seems that Kun is placed pretty damn high on the account of Luke Skywalker and others, so that alone makes Maul's superiority extremely questionable.


Liking the new name by the way.

@VictreebelVictr

In regards to my analogy, this was stated in case you regarded Canon Vader as << Maul, which you don't. Since that is the case, I agree that the analogy would have had no support for my argument.

Okay.

A clone of Maul was given difficulty (and lost, though it was sorta a cheap-shot) to Vader if you don't remember:

If Maul is >> Vader, then how would he have put up such a good fight?

I've made a case in favour of the Resurrection fight proving Vader's strength many times, so, no, I do remember it. In regards to the fight, my assumption that Maul is ">>", as you put it, is predicated on Lucas quotes stating Maul is much faster, more skilled, etc, so if you wish to try and argue for a contradiction here, Resurrection gets dismissed - due to being C-Canon, whereas the quotes are G-Canon - not my argument. Setting that aside, I don't think there's much of a contradiction. Maul does prove he's ">>", as far as conventional combat goes, by tagging Vader like 5 times (sometimes with a Lightsaber, and we've seen Dooku drop Kenobi in AOTC without full slashes, meaning if Vader's durability wasn't so good he would have been dropped) across the course of the fight, while Vader only manages to break his saber staff in two (Maul srikes back from that by bringing Vader to the floor with Lightsaber hits). Vader lasts so long on account of his durability, and only wins through his self-hatred, neither of which have anything to do with their respective Force Abilities and Lightsaber skills.

No, my analogy is saying that if someone has the ability to stop himself/herself from getting robbed but chose not to, then they might not have had the power to in the first place.

But you tried to scale Traya above Ahsoka because Ahsoka's never shown a feat on par with some of hers, even though Ahsoka's never really been in a similar scenario to Traya. How is that not the same as my analogy?

Isn't the battle between Maul and Ahsoka in season 7? Isn't that entire season canon only? Wouldn't that mean Maul does not have his supremacy quotes and Ahsoka isn't remotely close to what you are inferring to be?

The season is arguably Canon only, yes, but there is a case that it is also T-Canon under Legends, given that, per Filoni, it was designed to align with George's vision. At any rate, I never presumed whether we're taking it as Legends or Canon, my original post literally only clarifies my opinion on what happens if you view it under both...

I wrote:If we're assuming TCW S7 is Canon, there's no argument for Maul.

If we're assuming TCW S7 is Legends, Maul is confirmed to be better, so Kun dies.

I'm answering all the assumptions, not presuming one or the other is true.

Though this has been stated before, I will give credit to Tybalt for saying it.

Tybalt's rebuttal is semantically wrong, though. He just presumes it's referring solely to Banite scaling when that's never stated, and is actively contradicted given that the word "ever" is all-encompassing.

It warps the living hell out of all the power scaling and levels that have been established. Same with the Malak>Kun quote. I think I was exaggerating the "SW as a whole part", but you get my point.

Another assertion that's not proven. Show me how this "warps the living hell out of all power scaling".

It seems that Kun is placed pretty damn high on the account of Luke Skywalker and others, so that alone makes Maul's superiority extremely questionable.

IU character opinions are always more fallible than OOU quotes, so whatever others have said about Kun, it's instantly shown to be incorrect by the supremacy quote. That aside, I'm also not convinced JA Kun is necessarily weaker than TOTJ Kun, when Kun literally drained thousands of Massasi prior to getting WoLed.

Liking the new name by the way.

Thx.

@I_Like_Chee

Tybalt's rebuttal is semantically wrong, though. He just presumes it's referring solely to Banite scaling when that's never stated, and is actively contradicted given that the word "ever" is all-encompassing.

That's incorrect. The quote is from the TPM Flapbook, which explicitly says that "Maul is just the apprentice". This is a direct reference to the Rule of Two that Yoda specifies in the film.