RoS Kylo Ren VS Lord Momin

Standard rules
All out

Location: Mustafar, 35 ABY

Bonus: Duo unites to take on ROTS Mace windu.



-CANON ONLY-

And if yall dont mind, id kill for a reason or two why. Trying to figure out where i hold both of these dudes still in the canon mythos.

Momin unfortunately has very little in the way of quantifiable feats. It's a real shame, as he's my favorite of the new dark siders in Canon.

If he can't stop a half-dead, exhausted Vader from crushing him, he's not stopping Kylo Ren either.

Agreed.

Momin's only somewhat quantifiable battle feat is out-dueling an exhausted Vader, before getting projectile-crushed. That is, sadly, not enough to put him above Kylo.

I suppose I should bring up the bonus round.

Mace's best feats in Canon are Force pushing the AT-TE and defeating Sidious in RotS. From what we've seen of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, I'm honestly inclined to believe he is likely more powerful in the Force than Mace is (his temple feat is a lot more impressive than Mace's AT-TE feat). That said, I'm fairly confident Mace would destroy Kylo Ren in saber combat. Momin just doesn't have what it takes to make a difference here. He might be reasonably skilled with a lightsaber (decisively killed his master, Lady Shaa, and outdueled an exhausted Vader), but Mace can probably dismiss him pretty reliably with the Force, and we have nothing to indicate he can duel on Mace's level either.

Ah, I didn't notice the bonus round.

Here again, Momin unfortunately doesn't have the saber or Force feats to make me think he'd be anything but a minor nuisance to Mace. Kylo, on the other hand, has Force/TK feats that far surpass what canon Mace has displayed... But Mace [obviously] has saber feats that far surpass what Kylo has displayed.

That said, the bonus round would be:
Force: duo
Sabers: Mace
All-out: Mace

Imo.

Agreeing on Momin lacking feats to beat Kylo. However I'd like to disagree on the bonus. While Kylo doesn't have quite as good feats since he lacks competition, he shows great skill in those performances he has (stomping 3 fellow initiates, beating Ren, beating Rey), and he has shown the ability to block lightsabers bare-handed if necessary. Add to that superior power and Momin being fairly skilled as a duelist, and Mace should lose.

I agree that Kylo deserves a bit more credit than he typically gets as a swordsman. The problem is, like you said, his lack of quantifiable competition(and therefore feats.)

-Luke's Jedi students = skilled, but unknown level.
-Ren = skilled, but unknown level.
-The Praetorian Guards = skilled, but unknown level.
-The KoR = skilled, but unknown level.
-RoS Rey = skilled, but unknown level.

Mace, on the other hand, was no less than equal to(in fact, most canon sources imply that he was >) Palpatine himself in sabers. To date, Kylo doesn't have anything to concretely suggest that he could approach Mace in that area. Likewise, Momin certainly has some degree of skill as well, but besting an exhausted Vader isn't enough to make me think he could help even the odds.

Imo. /shrug

Yeah I can definetly see where you're coming from

Also worth noting, Ben Solo didn't stomp Hennix, Voe, and Tai. He went into the encounter completely unscathed, and by the end, his attire is in tatters and he clearly has injuries from the battle when he goes to meet Ren after the fact. What's more, Tai wasn't even actively fighting him in that encounter, and was instead trying to use TP to calm Ben down while Hennix and Voe fought Ben. It would be more accurate to state that Ben defeated two of Luke's initiates by the skin of his teeth.

That said, we can get a roughly decent idea where the Knights of Ren, Voe, and Ren sit, to try and get a better placement for Kylo Ren.

The Knights of Ren were considered without equal in terms of martial prowess during that era, and they demonstrated this by pretty decisively killing an entire Sector Security strike team, in spite of being heavily outnumbered. Voe was capable of holding her own against the entire group for a time, while Ren went off to confront Ben Solo. Ren acquitted himself very well against Voe, and was arguably her superior. And of course, Ben Solo was capable of soloing the entire Knights of Ren in under half a minute once he had a lightsaber in his hands.

The real trick for figuring out placement is trying to find another group in Canon who would be roughly comparable to the Knights of Ren. I'd say the Purge Troopers (as seen in Fallen Order) are a good parallel. The Purge Troopers are equipped with roughly comparable gear (though the Knights of Ren have superior firepower on their side), and Purge Troopers have similarly proven themselves well above the standard combatants of their era. However, I'm sure each member of the Knights of Ren is individually more deadly than any single Purge Trooper, due to the Knights being Force sensitive and having deadlier weapons in general.

One of the final challenges in all of Fallen Order is Cal having to fight through waves of Purge Troopers (with minor support from KX Security Droids and regular Stormtroopers). He never fights more than 2 at a time, and in the end, only fights 5 total during that battle (plus 4 KX Security Droids, a stormtrooper with a rocket launcher, and a couple scout troopers). If the Purge Troopers in that encounter had been replaced with the Knights of Ren, I find it very unlikely that Cal would have survived.

So the way I see it, the Knights of Ren are superior to endgame Cal Kestis, and by extension, they're superior (as a group) to any individual member of the Inquisitorious outside of perhaps the Grand Inquisitor. This works with statements we have that claim the KoR would have made fine stock as Inquisitors if they had been trained. This places Voe above Cal, given that Voe was capable of taking on all of their ranks at once. This also makes sense, considering Voe has likely had more Jedi training than Cal, and under a more impressive Jedi Master. Considering Ren held his own against Voe, and managed to land a Force push on her (and considering he was the leader, likely because he was hands down the most skilled among their ranks), it should go without saying that Ren is also likely above the likes of endgame Cal. Given Ben Solo's superiority to both Voe and to Ren, this places Ben Solo about two steps above Cal, considerably above the bulk of the Inquisitors, and likely above the Grand Inquisitor as well.

While this doesn't give us enough information to put Ben Solo on, say, the same level as Darth Vader, it does put him above a considerable amount of the current Canon mythos, outside of the top dogs. The problem is, pretty much any Jedi Council member we've seen in action could likely recreate Ben's victory over the Knights of Ren, with only a few exceptions. Considering Ben's feat against the Knights of Ren is the only feat we can really use to try and scale him to other characters, this pretty much locks him below Jedi Council level. Which, again, just leads to Mace absolutely dominating him.