SS- The Canon Tournament- Lord Momin (Jedi_Jesus) vs Ahsoka Tano (King Joker)

@Jedi_Jesus will be opening. Good luck to you both!

Hooo boy. This is going to be ugly. 

Great matchup, good luck to both parties.

Good luck both of you

Cheth wrote:Good luck both of you

thanks

Eh, 20 bucks on the King?

Just kidding, GL all.

TAEP

Okay. So before i post this, i would like you all to know i have never been in a forum debate in my life, and quite frankly have no idea what the actual hell im doing. Bear with me, its gonna be fun ;)

As an introduction for those who might be unfamiliar with him, lord Momin was born sometime in the events prior to the High Republic, Pre 400 BBY. 
-”Empires have risen and fallen since my birth, great ages of the Galaxy have passed… But here I stand.” :::: Darth vader (issue 24) 
And finally perished for the last time, while his possessed mask was on board the Sith Yacht “imperialis” during its final destruction during the fall of the Empire.


To best gauge for Momin stands as both a combatant, and a force user, i will break this into 2separate portions’, Being his combative feats, Force feats, and a Second portion  for a discussion of the “circumstances” that revolved around his most spectacular feat to begin with. 
__________________________________________________________________
Lightsaber/ Combat Abilities: Where Momin pales in comparison to Ahsoka Tano in terms of both exposure and quantity of feats, there is a direct comparison off his one best feat as is, and that would be besting 12 BBY Vader in a lightsaber duel in what one could only call a humbling. See the following scans below




In the opening blows of Vader Vs Momin, we are left with Vader already suffering a gash to his sword arm, meaning Momin effectively outpaced Vader and got in his guard in not only the opening moments of the battle, but the rest of the fight, as seen how he lands multiple blows in the following scan, as well as completely severing Vader’s arm. 


Lets Openly compare this confrontation with Ahsoka VS Rebels Vader, which occurs roughly 7 years later, Using the link below as my source of the whole encounter 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7ufR7utEo 
Big moments 
2:05  - Ahsoka Engages Vader 
2:09 - Ahsoka lands a Force push on vader that pushes him back about one full lightsaber length ( about 3 feet ) 
2:17 - 2:52 - Vader batters Ahsoka Backwards, and proceeds to outmuscle and Shoves her off the side of the sith temple. 
3:02 - Vader is blindsided by a lunge that lands a gash on his helmet, but not injuring him 
3:57 - Ahsoka re-engages Vader as the temple closes. 
---------------------- 
Pick back up with new video here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFq3_XJzo3M 
2:35, is the EXACT moment that the last video leaves off, leaving no room for a time skip of any form. 
2:57 - Ahsoka locks blades with Vader and is forced nearly to her knees
3:05 - The temple goes critical, abruptly changing the circumstances that without time manipulation, would have ended Ahsoka Tano’s life at that moment. 



So, breaking this down Second for second, Ahsoka is able to hold her own in a straight confrontation with Vader during both occasions, (The first video, and then the second video ) without giving ground for roughly (17 ) seconds in her fist portion of her fight, including the force push and then  
22 Seconds roughly for the second video, before she's forced nearly to her knees.  The average for both of these encounters ( Im not adding up the whole time shes basically being driven wherever Vader pleased, be it to the edge of the temple, or in the small temple room where vader pushes her back again until their final blade lock ) is just over 19 seconds.  That is moderately impressive in its own right, and fairly so. Vader at this point in time has feats under his belt such as 
-Beating Eeth koth ( A Jedi Council member during the Clone wars who has fighting evenly with TCW Grievous as a feat  )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx2bP5xv2jo 


- Beating Kirak ‘Infilia, a stated superior to Obi wan kenobi, and Cin Drallig. ( See quote below ) 
• Vader sets his sights on a Jedi who's avoided Order 66…
•  …a Jedi Master who's long lived in seclusion…
•  …a Jedi more powerful than any Vader has faced before…   
And to further credit this, we can look here as well, to show Vader years before his fight with momin was an equal in his power in the force to kirak, meaning that even post 66 in a new suit, Vader’s force  power had not significantly decreased after his battle with Kenobi.


So vader in 19 BBY ~ Kirak > ROTS Kenobi. That leaves 7 years of growth for Vader in canon to grow in power, skill, and grow accustomed to his suit  (See below) 
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Darth-Vader-2017/Issue-6?id=122781  
Which can be further substantiated in his clowning of eeth Koth https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Darth-Vader-2017/Issue-19?id=137960, A Jedi council member that fought on even footing with TCW grievous despite having a bad arm. 


Recap: In this portion of my thread, I have provided scans and quotes to prove that Vader scales directly above ROTS Kenobi in canon as soon as a few weeks post ROTS. 7 years down the road, Lord Momin preforms on better footing than Kirak does, (Completely disarming Vader) with Vader being accustomed to his suit, as well as having a weapon he had extensive use with. Lord Momin >12 BBY Vader> 19 BBY Vader~ Kirak > ROTS Kenobi 


---------------------------------------------------------------
Part two. 


One of the resounding issues with the Vader vs Momin fight is that people read much to into the quote from lord momin about how vader is “apparently injured” or at the very least “hindered” in their fight. However, in issue 24 of the Vader comics, ( See below, ) we can examine all of the blows Vader recieves.  https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Darth-Vader-2017/Issue-24?id=144674 In vader’s first interaction with the natives, we see him casually catch lava, throw it aside, and swamp the natives away with it. 


In the interaction that everyone cites, see below. Vader force shields the lava from touching him, effectively keeping his suit safe.
In the next panel, we see the heat begin to overwhelm the “COOLING” systems in vader systems, rather than anything vital. This casuses the fabric of his suit to catch on fire. Note, this is still nothing that impedes his combative ability, rather his cosmetic.
In the next panel, we see Vader still succesfully using his force shield to keep the lava off of him, to rocket skyward by force jumping off a piece of carnage from the battle.


And in the final interaction with flames that Vader has, he simply stands up after flying out of the lava, and walks back towards the temple. 






There is not a single panel anywhere in issue 24 where Vader even notes fatigue in his body, or body language from the battle that ensued prior to the lava. There is also not a single panel where Vader is damaged in the fight with the natives, or anything other than his cooling systems in his suit weakening. We have already seen before that vader’s suit can withstand MUCH higher amounts of heat, as evidenced from his hunting of Grand Moff Tarkin ( see below )  https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Darth-Vader-2017/Issue-18?id=136966 
for a gauge of what natural lightning’s temperature is in comparison to natural lava. 53,540 degrees Fahrenheit, for lightning, compared to the higher end of lava,  2,200 degrees Fahrenheit. Vader’s suit was still functional after being struck with heat at 53,000 degrees, as we see from him able to still choke Tarkin. Exposure to lava is not going to cripple his suit in any form after showing durability such as the lightning feat. 






Recap: Despite momin goading Vader about his new and improved body, as well as insulting vader about his suit, Vader could not have sustained anything other than minor at best damage after comparing how his suit has handled much higher temperatures as well as noting the lack of any wounds his suit sustained during the battle. This “Circumstantial loss” is not nearly as circumstantial as people make it out to be. 



Overall: Lord Momin still scales above 12 BBY Vader as an overall combatant, who is 7 years the superior to a Vader that fought on equal terms with a jedi confirmed to be superior to Obi wan kenobi as of ROTS. Ahsoka on the other hand, was only able to hold her ground for a under a minute overall against Vader only a few years later. The comparison of their feats is easy to hold side by side and judge the superior.

oh...oh yes. This is going to be interesting, I wish you both the best.

@Jedi_Jesus Interrested post but the formating of it isn't really good.

xolthol wrote:@Jedi_Jesus Interrested post but the formating of it isn't really good.

My downfall is only debating on facebook posts, rather than a actual forum. This is my learning curve tbh.‍� we'll see how it goes.

Fortunately for those reading, the characters being represented in this debate will be quite easy to compare, as both of their preeminent combat feats are against Darth Vader. This will (hopefully) allow a rather streamlined debate focusing on the particulars of their respective duels against Darth Vader, so I’ll try not to make my arguments any bulkier than is necessary, since most of you are familiar with Ahsoka. As such, this post will contain the following points of analysis: I). Jedi_Jesus’s scaling chain, II). Lord Momin and his duel with Darth Vader, III). Ahsoka Tano and her duel with Darth Vader, and IV). a conclusion. Let’s get started.

Jedi_Jesus wrote:So vader in 19 BBY ~ Kirak > ROTS Kenobi. [...] Recap: In this portion of my thread, I have provided scans and quotes to prove that Vader scales directly above ROTS Kenobi in canon as soon as a few weeks post ROTS. 7 years down the road, Lord Momin preforms on better footing than Kirak does, (Completely disarming Vader) with Vader being accustomed to his suit, as well as having a weapon he had extensive use with. Lord Momin >12 BBY Vader> 19 BBY Vader~ Kirak > ROTS Kenobi

This scaling chain fails on every level.

For Jedi_Jesus’s assertions to make any sense, one would have to take many leaps of logic. To start with, if you were to take the Kirak Infil'a marketing blurb seriously, which claims that Infil'a was “more powerful” than any Jedi Vader had faced up to that point, you would also be tacitly admitting to a few unsubstantiated, and frankly absurd, propositions: 1). Darth Vader, newly mutilated only a few days prior, fitted with a bulky suit of armor with a built-in life-support system and three more prosthetic limbs, was at the same or greater power than he was pre-suit, pre-amputations. I find that notion to be ridiculous, both holistically and logically. Furthermore, if you were to remain adamant that 19 BBY suited Vader shrugged off his defeat on Mustafar and suffered no real detriments, you would then have to make the leap that 2). Obi-Wan Kenobi grew in power at a similar rate to Darth Vader over nineteen years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope in order to explain why Kenobi held his own so proficiently against a more experienced, powerful Vader. And the only proof presented? A plot summary written by a marketer that likely bypassed the normal vetting system of the Star Wars Canon story group. I’m not ready to assume such unprecedented degrees of growth from a hermit in the desert, nor am I willing to accept that Vader’s traumatic fall from grace in Revenge of the Sith incurred no real consequences. Give me something better than marketing ploys. As it stands, Infil’a was equal to a newbie Darth Vader in the Force—that’s the only reliable information we can glean from their encounter.

Moreover, even if I were to take the scaling chain at face-value, its relevance as it relates to Ahsoka vs. Momin is questionable at best, totally moot at worst. Indeed, as you may have surmised, this debate is between two characters who have both faced a common enemy; the common enemy being the crux of Jedi_Jesus’s scaling chain (Darth Vader). If Jedi_Jesus was arguing Momin is superior to a character who hadn’t fought Vader, I’m sure this line of argumentation would come in handy—but this isn’t the case, as whatever conclusions that are drawn regarding Vader’s (and even Momin’s) power can also be applied to Ahsoka, as Ahsoka fought a more experienced Darth Vader nine years later. Funny how that works!


To preface this fight, Lord Momin was kind enough to give us some candid insight of his powers in relation to Darth Vader: “Oh, Vader… even when I could use the Force, my power was nothing compared to yours.”—Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith (#23). Momin’s admission of inferiority, even vast inferiority, gives us a ballpark to estimate the degree to which Vader was hindered during his fight with him.

In response to Jedi_Jesus’s analysis of the comic art regarding Vader’s suit, I believe his endeavor was fruitless. We already have dialogue confirming our suspicions about Vader’s condition:

“Momin. I warned you of the consequences for betrayal.”—Darth Vader

“So you did. But you seem quite the worse for wear. I can hear your servos grinding from here. While I… am newly born.”—Lord Momin, Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith (#24)

A couple points to underscore with this dialogue: 1). Momin immediately notes Vader’s weary state, implying that Vader’s degradation was exceedingly obvious. 2). Vader’s suit is audibly creaking, clearly suggesting far more damage than simple “cosmetics” like Jedi_Jesus stated. In fact, Vader’s state of disrepair is notable enough to give Momin confidence to pursue the fight in the first place, as his response to Vader’s threat of retribution starts with, “But you seem quite the worse for wear,” allowing us to infer that Momin believes that Vader is less of a threat now that he is injured.

Next, we should take note of Momin pointing out that it was Vader’s “servos” revealing his poor state. The functioning of servos, of course, is not simply to cool Vader down—they deal with mobility and mechanical power. If Vader’s servos are grinding so loudly that Momin can hear them “from here” (a notable distance away, by the language he uses), then we can deduce that Vader’s basic mechanical functioning is severely compromised. What’s more, is that Momin’s observation comes while Vader is hardly moving:



If the noises from Vader's suit resembled the sounds of a trash compactor then, can you imagine the stress Vader’s servos would be under during a “fierce” duel with a Sith Master?

Indeed, to fill in the picture some more, we have a brief description of the fight: “After possessing several hosts, Momin’s spirit betrayed Vader by using the gateway to resurrect its original body. But ultimately, Momin was destroyed following a fierce duel.”—Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith (#25)

The word “fierce” suggests intense aggression and activity, as well as a degree of difficulty for both participants.

This further calls into question the particulars of Momin’s successes during his duel with Vader. As Jedi_Jesus pointed out, Momin effectively “outpaced” Vader. Indeed, he seems to have done just that. A feat of speed, of course, but I wonder how legitimate such a feat is against an already notoriously cumbersome opponent whose suit is working against him? I’m of the opinion—not very.

With all of this being said, it begs the question: Why exactly couldn’t Ahsoka replicate Momin’s performance?


Nine years after Lord Momin's untimely death, Ahsoka faced off against her former Jedi Master, a Sith Lord who’d been following her like a specter of haunting familiarity, but whose identity was still unknown to her.

Ahsoka began the fight in a similar manner to Lord Momin, with a flurry of speed which caught the grossly senior swordsman off-guard and reeling. Contrary to Jedi_Jesus’s claim, Ahsoka Force pushed Vader much farther than three feet, which seems obvious enough given Ahsoka felt the need to leap into the air to close the distance and re-engage, along with the fact that visually speaking… Vader clearly went farther than a lightsaber’s length (lol?).

The opening stages of Ahsoka vs. Vader give us some important points of comparison with Momin: Ahsoka is quicker than Vader, suggesting that if Ahsoka was in Momin’s place nine years earlier against a mechanically disadvantaged Vader, she would also be able to “outpace” Vader, perhaps to an even greater extent. Secondly, Ahsoka’s Force shove, and Vader largely opting out of his typical shows of telekinetic dominance, demonstrate that Ahsoka is within striking range of Vader in terms of strength in the Force. Momin showed no such ability.

While people love to point out that Ahsoka was on the back foot for most of the fight, as if it’s a new insight that changes in any way the dynamics of the conversation, Ahsoka clearly challenged Vader, proving to be quicker than him and similarly skilled.

In concise terms, we have Ahsoka performing well against a Darth Vader who:

• Continued his tutelage under Darth Sidious and his purge of the Jedi in the interim nine years between her and Momin; increasing his knowledge of the dark side and combative experience
  
• Had an intimate familiarity with her lightsaber abilities
  
• Was still at a speed deficit
  
• Was vulnerable to Ahsoka’s Force attacks no less than she was to his
  

The fourth point is interesting to note, because while Momin’s power was “nothing” compared to Vader’s, as demonstrated by him being helplessly splattered against a wall nearly a decade prior to Ahsoka’s duel with Vader, Ahsoka was actually capable of trading Force attacks with Vader as well as sustaining a strong defense—disallowing Vader to dominate her ala Momin, Ezra Bridger, Kanan Jarrus, Cal Kestis, Cere Junda, etc.


Jedi_Jesus spent his opener propagating a rather absurd scaling chain, that even in its best-case scenario places Lord Momin ambiguously between 12 BBY Darth Vader and 19 BBY Darth Vader. Further, his insistence that Vader's dilapidated suit was mere cosmetic damage is blatantly contradicted by Lord Momin's own dialogue, calling into question the foundation of his case. Jedi_Jesus's critiques on Ahsoka's duel with Vader are similarly irrelevant, as he fails to dispute the fact that Ahsoka held her own against an even more powerful opponent than Lord Momin did, nor does he relate Ahsoka to his nonsensical scaling chain.

The sum of my argument is this: when considering Ahsoka’s and Momin’s duels as a whole, with the facts of both duels being laid bare, Ahsoka’s performance gets her more mileage than Momin’s. Ahsoka achieved admirable results against an intact, deadlier Sith Lord, whereas Momin reaped the benefits of facing a decrepit foe, and in the end, still ended up dead.

So it goes.

@King Joker Great post as usual when you use Ashoka

Jedi_Jesus u picked a horrible fight here. its like trying to defend the idea that 27 y/o is weaker than 15 y/o u

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Jedi_Jesus u picked a horrible fight here. its like trying to defend the idea that 27 y/o is weaker than 15 y/o u

With all due respect dude, Im not really worried about KJ's opener ( if you could call spending an entire opener just going after my post instead of cementing where he actually stands) in the slightest. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up. If anything else, im actually quite a bit more comfortable now.

Lmao

Man just said "nope, you lose" if I could vote I vote JJ for sheer chadery

@Jedi_Jesus’s two-week extension has expired, Joker is by therefore the victor for this round. Congratulations!

Thanks for the debate, @Jedi_Jesus!