Aurra Sing, Mara Jade and Jaina Solo vs Darth Caedus

Caedus takes on all 3 of these powerhouses. Each was able to challenge him individually so can they take him together? Standard rules.

FITE! POWER!

All 3 of them needed heavy context to compete 1V1.

Jacen wrecks.

Tell me what context was there?

I'm waiting for somebody else to enter the thread. Somebody called Jake.

Concession accepted. Too scared to discuss it with me I see.

Trio might edge.

Aurra solos 

Sing distracts Caedus.

@Jake Since you seem to have no problem throwing shade on discord why don't we analyse the text in question on forum. I know you have trouble reading and comprehending the English language, but try to keep up will yah.

1) Aurra Sing

Sins's success against Jacen is marred with circumstances and nothing suggests she'd be able to give him a fight without said circumstances present, in fact there's a great deal of evidence to the contrary.

The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind, watching in horror as she pitched the detonator toward the refresher where Allana was hiding.

Jacen's heart dropped through the bottom of his stomach. His arm shot out without conscious thought, and the detonator floated into his hand almost before he realized he had summoned it.

Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

To start with Sing doesn't even legitimately down Jacen, she does so because he's distracted by the detonator endangering Allana's life, something explicitly emphasised by the text being discussed (Relevant parts are underlined).

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his Lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

Despite her gaining a positional advantage from the aforementioned events Sing isn't able to hold the upper hand for long. Jacen halts her blade, tank her kicks and bodies her with telekinesis within seconds. Her only success is disarming him of his saber as a result of his disadvantageous circumstances, which as explained previously had nothing to do with her skill/power.

Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike.Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

However despite no longer being in possession of his weapon Jacen's swiftly restrains Sing and dislocates her knee, a clear indicator of the vast disparity between the two.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.

Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

Jacen only loses his edge due to his desire to protect his daughter, however Sing's still unable to break his grip before Allana incapacitates her.

To summarise, Jacen displays his vast superiority clearly towards the end of the fight, where he restrains Sing and dislocates her knee within a few moves, despite not being in possession of his saber. Sing's advantages throughout the engagement come as a result of several circumstances in her favour and cannot be used to place her as a peer to Jacen combatively.

2) Mara Jade

Mara's fight is filled with context as well, probably more so than Sing's. The context in question is spelled out in big black letters in the novel, which leaves me stunned as to why certain individuals are so adamant they are right when discussing this feat (Not you in particular), when the events that occur in the book clearly disagree with their fanfiction accounts of what happened.

She grabbed her bag and everything from the cockpit that could be used as a weapon, then found some cover while she consulted her datapad for charts and surveys of Kavan. It was honeycombed with ruined monuments and tunnels. Fine. If I get him in a confined space, he can't use all his Force skills, but I can make the most of what I've got. She decided to make her way into the maze of buried passages and get Jacen to follow her.

To begin we have Mara's environmental advantage. She selected the tunnels specifically to prevent Jacen from utilising his force powers effectively against her.

Crack.

His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. He lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. Mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel.

It wasn't a good start. Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endorphins to numb his leg and telling himself that he knew she was setting up a trap. She wanted him confined, pinned down, penned.

…

The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke.

Mara waited, one hand over her mouth and nose, shoto drawn, and listened in the Force.

To add to her advantages Mara fucks up Jacen's leg with an ambush and then drops a tunnel on him.

He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood.

It was Mara who had to die to fulfil his destiny.

Killing her was the test: the words of the prophecy were meaningless, and at a visceral level he knew that her death was the pivotal act. He didn't know how, and this wasn't the time to stop and think about it. He surrendered totally to instinct for the first time in ages. Whatever guided a Sith's hand had to guide him now.

But he was hurt, and badly.

The result is Jacen being hurt so badly he can barely stand up properly.

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

The effort froze Jacen for two vital seconds. But he knew if he didn't get up now and fight back, Mara would come in for the kill, again and again, until he was worn down and too weak to fend her off.

Interestingly enough Jacen's injuries are so severe he can barely TK the tunnel's rubble off himself and ends up frozen for two seconds due to the level of exertion he's had to put into it.

The drop ship completed its attack pattern, then stopped firing as it descended below the effective altitude for its fire-control apparatus. The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base.

… Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.

Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.

… And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.

Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel.

…

Jacen reached out and pulled a handful of air toward him. Simultaneously the Y-wing's ion jet pods skidded backward across the duracrete, sending up showers of sparks, just until the starfighter's nose slid off the barrier and crashed to the ground, facing directly into the duracrete.

Then he added a twisting motion, and the Y-wing rotated along its long axis, crashing onto the taxiing strip upside down.

Note that weaker iterations of Jacen while healthy can throw around Y-wings and Drop Ships casually, which adds further validity to the idea that  Jacen is operating at a fraction of his true power in this instance. Despite all of this context favouring Mara Jacen still gives her a solid fight, making the idea of her even contending with Peak Jacen laughable.

"No, I feel that Jacen's developing powers way beyond mine, and that he's good for Ben, and that he would never harm him."

…

Either way, she was going to get a reaction out of him. She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

To cap it off we have Mara's concession that Jacen's powers are far beyond hers and that she can't hope to outstrip them.

So yeah, the idea that Mara is anything other than fodder to Jacen is entirely unsubstantiated in my eyes. Perhaps the mighty Jake could enlighten me, but something tells me I'll be disappointed as usual.

3) Jaina Solo

To round off we have Jaina, Sword Fodder Of The Jedi and sub Jacen scrub. I'll make this quick because the context is so blatant it's honestly laughable.

Jaina did not even feel the beskad cleaving bone. She simply heard a voice-Jacen's voice - cry out in shock and pain; then an arm landed on her boots. In the next instant Caedus was whirling away, screaming and flapping a red stump, and something hot and wet splashed across Jaina's face and throat and began to burn like acid.

A part of her - the part that had grown up with Jacen and trained with him on Yavin 4 and traded snowballs at Coruscant's polar playgrounds - was too horrified to act. That part wanted to stand paralyzed in shock, to pretend this was just some terrible nightmare from which she would shortly awaken. The other part-the part that had actually asked for this mission - knew what would happen if she let herself freeze.

Jacen was already only fighting with one arm, the arm Jaina took in their first duel.

He let the sentence trail off as the door opened on its own, revealing a dark-uniformed woman with an athletic build and brown, furious eyes.

"Jaina?"

A lightsaber snap-hissed to life, and suddenly Caedus felt as though he were going to vomit fire.

Jaina also stabs him in the gut with a lightsaber before the fight even begins.

Despite this Jacen still dominates the fight, repeatedly ragdolling her with telekinesis, blasting her with force lightning and defending against her onslaught. Jaina only wins because of an amplification caused by her love for her brother and Jacen becoming distracted by his desire to save his wife and child. So yeah, Jaina is nothing but fodder to Jacen.

4) Conclusion

The team is comprised of:

>Sing who gets tooled by an unarmed Jacen.
>Mara who admits she is conventionally far below Jacen and needs ridiculously one sided circumstances to stand a chance.
>Jaina who is ragdoll fodder for Jacen while he's a walking corpse.

Was in a rush when typing this, I have to go out, sorry if it doesn't live up to your "expectations". Anyway though, the team gets flat out stomped and I'd love to see an argument to indicate otherwise.

What I just read was that Aurra sing was able to physically overpower Jacen solo.

Pathetic

Sup grey

Gonna have to phone a friend for this monstrosity, @copper.warrioranalytics You’re up buddy.

So Jake's decided to jump ship as usual rather than addressing any of my points. Seems he's only confident on Discord with a bunch of trolls to back him up.

Flunky Cyborg wrote:What I just read was that Aurra sing was able to physically overpower Jacen solo.

Pathetic

Never happened. She was able to briefly force his blade back with a positional advantage while using two hands too Jacen's one. As soon as he brings his other hand up to reinforce the first Sing is unable to move his blade a centimetre, even while kicking him repeatedly with a spiked toecap.

Still better than Jinn wank

DC77 wrote:So Jake's decided to jump ship as usual rather than addressing any of my points. Seems he's only confident on Discord with a bunch of trolls to back him up.

Grey ragdolling

Grey ragdolling

Grey ragdolling

DC77 wrote:@Jake Since you seem to have no problem throwing shade on discord why don't we analyse the text in question on forum. I know you have trouble reading and comprehending the English language, but try to keep up will yah.

I will be playing the role of a man trained by Grey in the art of observation here. I will be examining only what you have given me and explained with no added context from myself. I have only watched the movies (Kylo Ren forever!) and don't know the characters mentioned here besides Aurra Sing - who lost to Padme. We will assume you're not hiding anything sneaky like Jacen starting the fight by mindraping Aurra Sing from another room away, or Mara fighting Jacen in a cave with enough room to smash her into walls repeatedly/for her to force jump on his back, or Jacen having over a week to recover and thinking he can take on Luke/Jaina-is-fodder to him or anything silly like that.

So without further ado, I will apply my Grey-given skills to cast doubt on what you've chosen to highlight your best defense from these three.

DC77 wrote:

1) Aurra Sing

Sins's success against Jacen is marred with circumstances and nothing suggests she'd be able to give him a fight without said circumstances present, in fact there's a great deal of evidence to the contrary.

To start with Sing doesn't even legitimately down Jacen, she does so because he's distracted by the detonator endangering Allana's life, something explicitly emphasised by the text being discussed (Relevant parts are underlined).

So, a key thing to note here is your main excuse is a distraction. In other words, he is not capable of defending another without being tagged by a singular member of this trio. More on this later.


Let's examine the events to try and create a realistic timeline of what you've presented:

• Sing throws a grenade at Allana (Jacen's daughter?)
  
• Jacen retrieves it before he can even think of it; Sing starts whirling around here or when it's in his hands
  
• Jacen's reflexes and powers were indicated to happen before he could even comprehend it
  
• Sing is traveling to Jacen who had the grenade in his hand before she reached him
  
• Jacen has time to block her attack by moving his entire arm.
  
• Jacen moved his thumb to turn off a switch from a grenade that's been in his hand longer than any event so far in this sequence.
  
• Jacen moving his thumb while blocking Sing's initial offense - and presumed maximum momentum she could gather in this fight - opened himself up for Sing to bring her entire leg and body close enough to knee Jacen in the gut
  
• Jacen flies over a couch and breaks a table
  
• Sing was already standing over him before he could roll over "Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block"
  

What we've established so far is that Jacen's reflexes were working perfectly fine in the starting phase of the fight. He was able to catch a grenade before he fully comprehended the action, and intercept Sing's initial attack all in one fluid motion. Jacen, who is presumably familiar with said grenade - he knew how to turn it off - gets kneed in the gut after stifling her initial attack because he turned off the grenade. I would assume he was facing Sing and not looking at the grenade because it makes sense in a combat situation. He would be facing her to block with his other hand either at his side or somewhere out of his peripherals; while he relied on feel to turn it off. This is backed up by him not actually seeing the light and then getting kneed in the stomach after he flipped the switch.

"He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach..."

So in this situation, and per your words, Jacen gets distracted by flipping the thumb switch on a detonator he wasn't looking at. Keep in mind his reflexes were operating at adequate levels. This little distraction against a singular member of the trio leads into all the disadvantages he has to overcome in this fight.

Either Sing is fast enough to capitalize on this distraction or he was more distracted than he should be by such a simple act. Makes no difference, but it's important to note neither helps him in this thread.

DC77 wrote:Despite her gaining a positional advantage from the aforementioned events Sing isn't able to hold the upper hand for long. Jacen halts her blade, tank her kicks and bodies her with telekinesis within seconds. Her only success is disarming him of his saber as a result of his disadvantageous circumstances, which as explained previously had nothing to do with her skill/power.

Jacen halts her blade after using both hands. The fact that it was a struggle for an undetermined amount of time doesn't portray her as being way below his level in strength. We wouldn't expect Dooku to have to worry about not turning away from Sing for example - when he can stave off full swings from Anakin in a similar position. And kicking, while potentially hurting him, wouldn't give herself an extra push of power. It's trying to wilt Jacen as opposed to giving her an extra push. Apparently, the pain was a friend to him. What was he, a Sith Lord? In fact, while kicking she would lose power; as her feet are now unbalanced and she's not drawing strength from a balanced stance.

Let's back up here a second. Her only success came WHEN she was getting "bodied by TK?" You speak of all these disadvantageous positions, but I would think a highly disadvantageous position in saber dueling would be when you are in the process of being thrown against a wall with TK. She was in the air getting flung back and still had the wherewithal to disarm him.

"As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his Lightsaber went flying."

This sounds like a highly skilled maneuver and one I've never seen in the movies, Clone Wars, or Rebels. Can you explain how you rationalize this? Could a Gungan disarm Count Dooku while being force pushed for example? Yoda disarm Sidious while force pushed? Where is the line drawn? The casual way you handwave this away seems like you have keen insight into this phenomenon, but I simply do not know of another instance. Expand, please.

Jacen was also disarmed while trying to surprise Sing too. Indicating that it wasn't a set of circumstances that led to his saber being held too loosely, but he seemed rather confident in its application. His set of circumstances directly led him into a state in which he felt confident he could mount a surprise offense. Her feet were not firmly planted into the ground while holding a saber lock; he was focused on blasting her away due to a lapse in her defense. He still got disarmed.

DC77 wrote:However despite no longer being in possession of his weapon Jacen's swiftly restrains Sing and dislocates her knee, a clear indicator of the vast disparity between the two.

Yes, a very skillful maneuver, but one geared more towards a one-on-one fight, no? He took advantage of her sloppiness due to arrogance and managed to grab her; but not incapacitate her. Though, not sure Jacen kicking her knee as hard as he can when she's not expecting it displays vast disparity in the way you want. You do make note of a similar thing where Jacen gets his knee smashed by Mara in the next section. It shows his skill that he put himself in the situation where he could accomplish it, but him needing to be in that situation to do it throws out his ability to just break her knee willy-nilly.

He can out skill her one-on-one, but can he do the same three-on-one? Not based on what we've seen here so far, but let's continue.

DC77 wrote:Jacen only loses his edge due to his desire to protect his daughter, however Sing's still unable to break his grip before Allana incapacitates her.

To summarise, Jacen displays his vast superiority clearly towards the end of the fight, where he restrains Sing and dislocates her knee within a few moves, despite not being in possession of his saber. Sing's advantages throughout the engagement come as a result of several circumstances in her favour and cannot be used to place her as a peer to Jacen combatively.

The best way to protect his daughter would have been to kill Sing while he was standing with a saber. As we've seen earlier, moving his thumb distracted him enough that he couldn't maneuver with the same finesse as when he was unarmed. Distracted, froze, unable, etc it all adds up to him losing his best offense early.

His vast superiority was displayed by dodging one attack and getting within grapple range. He didn't dance around her as she flailed ineffectually. He surprised her and overpowered her; but still didn't finish her and failed to disarm her.

Keep in mind you're speaking as if she's complete fodder for him, but these are pretty significant factors to keep her outside of "fodder range" whatever that means. We're speaking one-on-one combat here. Getting disarmed by a girl flying through the air and having to grapple her for a while to subdue her, do not correlate into a great performance against a trio.


To summarize:

• Miniscule distractions are all Aurra needs to land big hits on Jacen
  
• Sing is able to adapt to a surprise force push from him to a degree where she can disarm him if close enough.
  
• Sing is strong enough to lock up with Jacen.
  
• Sing is fast enough to give Jacen issues; knee in the gut, disarm in mid-air, spinning fast enough that he barely could grab her wrist in a planned movement, etc.
  

These are things that when compounded in a team format can spell disaster for him on his own. You might be confident that you can override how well she did in the context of the fight, but the issues are still prevalent. It doesn't delete what she accomplished; it just makes it unlikely she repeats it on her own on neutral ground... maybe.

DC77 wrote:2) Mara Jade

Mara's fight is filled with context as well, probably more so than Sing's. The context in question is spelled out in big black letters in the novel, which leaves me stunned as to why certain individuals are so adamant they are right when discussing this feat (Not you in particular), when the events that occur in the book clearly disagree with their fanfiction accounts of what happened.

To begin we have Mara's environmental advantage. She selected the tunnels specifically to prevent Jacen from utilising his force powers effectively against her.

"If I get him in a confined space, he can't use all his Force skills, but I can make the most of what I've got."

Both are hindered by this event, but Mara still feels this is her best shot. We can assume all day what exact powers she's looking to prevent, but it's fairly safe to assume Jacen will still retain any power Mara can use - and from your words - to greater effect. If she's fodder, then she should also be fodder on neutral ground considering it doesn't make up for the disparity in raw power. It's not throttling his power down, just hindering his range of powers.

Mara can make the most of what she's got. Is it safe to assume Jacen also has what she has?

DC77 wrote:To add to her advantages Mara fucks up Jacen's leg with an ambush and then drops a tunnel on him.
The result is Jacen being hurt so badly he can barely stand up properly.

Staggering to your feet after initial damage does not signify you are staggering the entire time. That sounds like him overcoming being rocked and dazed. This is also not congruent with you stating he still gives her a solid fight. He could barely move his own body in a normal human manner, but you're leading us to believe he can still fight to a force enhanced level?

I would imagine the force would alleviate a lot of these issues because otherwise, him staggering around like a zombie due to damage [normal human body] would be comparable to him not having the strength to move a normal human body. So was he acting like a corpse the entire time, or was that his initial-base form before using the force? So while still weakened, it would keep him able to fight as opposed to just a shambling corpse as that passage would suggest. As would giving Mara Jade - who Wookiepedia tells me is a great Jedi - a solid fight.

DC77 wrote:Interestingly enough Jacen's injuries are so severe he can barely TK the tunnel's rubble off himself and ends up frozen for two seconds due to the level of exertion he's had to put into it.

Note that weaker iterations of Jacen while healthy can throw around Y-wings and Drop Ships casually, which adds further validity to the idea that  Jacen is operating at a fraction of his true power in this instance.

Well, let's look at this quote again because I feel you're misconstruing it:

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.


This is not him "barely tk'ing rubble," this is him blasting all the rubble off him akin to a bomb. The rubble very much moved and emphatically at that.

Think of it this way; for all the rubble she just used to weaken his full-power body (besides a knee joint issue) with, he blasted all of it off of him like a bomb blast where many pieces collided with Mara at high speeds. While she might not have felt the full sustained weight of it, she was impacted by many parts of it enhanced by a bomb-like force repulse. If you're arguing Jacen starts at a fraction of his power, then wouldn't a fodder-tier opponent in Mara be significantly dwindled by such an explosion in a limited area?

So yes, blasting all the rubble away violently is not the same as barely lifting it. You can't draw parallels between other lifting feats because we don't know how much effort was required to do the bare minimum. We only know he vastly overdid the power required to simply lift it. It did not resist him in the least.

DC77 wrote: Despite all of this context favouring Mara Jacen still gives her a solid fight, making the idea of her even contending with Peak Jacen laughable.

I'm not sure how the fight goes as you haven't posted it, but a solid fight in a one-on-one contest while withstanding force-aided debris explosions sounds like a worthy team-mate to Sing up top.

DC77 wrote:To cap it off we have Mara's concession that Jacen's powers are far beyond hers and that she can't hope to outstrip them.

So yeah, the idea that Mara is anything other than fodder to Jacen is entirely unsubstantiated in my eyes. Perhaps the mighty Jake could enlighten me, but something tells me I'll be disappointed as usual.

Developing powers far beyond hers, and his power outstripping hers do not mean she's literal fodder to him. I think you're being too heavy-handed with that term. You've shown that she shouldn't be able to match up solo, not that he can effortlessly execute her. All you've shown is two potentially weakened beings having a "solid fight" while one should be weakened more than the other. And Jacen is above her by a good gap at full power.

Is that enough information to conclude she just can't accomplish anything in a team format? I'm not convinced personally based on this thread. Maybe you're withholding something that would clear this up, but I'm not convinced that your interpretations based on select passages push this entirely in one direction?

DC77 wrote:

3) Jaina Solo

To round off we have Jaina, Sword Fodder Of The Jedi and sub Jacen scrub. I'll make this quick because the context is so blatant it's honestly laughable.

Jacen was already only fighting with one arm, the arm Jaina took in their first duel.

Jaina also stabs him in the gut with a lightsaber before the fight even begins.

Despite this Jacen still dominates the fight, repeatedly ragdolling her with telekinesis, blasting her with force lightning and defending against her onslaught. Jaina only wins because of an amplification caused by her love for her brother and Jacen becoming distracted by his desire to save his wife and child. So yeah, Jaina is nothing but fodder to Jacen.

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since you haven't provided details of the fight.

What you have provided, however, is proof of Jacen failing to take out Jaina with repeated ragdolls, lightning and her still bringing an "onslaught" of attacks his way and even winning in the end. As well as Jacen failing to react to her walking through the door and stabbing him in the gut.

Would a second hand have ended her instantly, because it appears he repeatedly hit her with force attacks and inevitably lost? Indicating she's durable enough to resist his power?

"Jaina only wins because of an amplification caused by her love for her brother"

Are they also not brother-sister in this thread? Is this not a possibility?

In your haste to dismiss this fight, it seems you added more fuel for her utility in this thread I'm afraid. You didn't post the battle, but I trust you're being honest when you give her so much credit in terms of tanking his attacks.

DC77 wrote:

4) Conclusion

The team is comprised of:

>Sing who gets tooled by an unarmed Jacen.
>Mara who admits she is conventionally far below Jacen and needs ridiculously one sided circumstances to stand a chance.
>Jaina who is ragdoll fodder for Jacen while he's a walking corpse.

Was in a rush when typing this, I have to go out, sorry if it doesn't live up to your "expectations". Anyway though, the team gets flat out stomped and I'd love to see an argument to indicate otherwise.

Well, let's rephrase this based on what you've shown. Let's put this all together here and think of a way the team could win:

• Miniscule distractions are all Aurra needs to land big hits on Jacen
  
• Sing is able to adapt to a surprise force push from him to a degree where she can disarm him if close enough.
  
• Sing is strong enough to lock up with Jacen.
  
• Sing is fast enough to give Jacen issues; knee in the gut, disarm in mid-air, spinning fast enough that he barely could grab her wrist in a planned movement, etc.
  
• Sing is durable enough to take him slamming her against a wall
  
• Mara is durable enough to take an explosion of debris from the same rubble that you state severely weakened Jacen
  
• Mara is skilled enough to give Jacen a "solid fight"
  
• Mara is powerful and fast enough to rip the tendons out of his knee with a kick if he's distracted
  
• Sing is armed with grenades
  
• Jaina is capable of amping based on her love for her brother
  
• Jaina is capable of tanking his force attacks
  
• Jaina is capable of beating him when he's distracted
  
• All of these people are apparently able to duel with him even though his force is way higher than theirs/they can take his force attacks
  
• Jacen is easily distracted in a one-on-one fight
  

So what happens when you triple the combatants of people that individually were able to give Jacen fits? What happens when Jacen gets distracted when his attacks don't work? What happens when one person keeps coming and he opens up his guard to Aurra Sing - who only needs the span of his thumb moving to surprise him - and this puts him off guard for the next combatant like Jaina who can lodge a saber in his gut off a draw? You haven't proven he can deal with those individual threats as easily as you say; only given excuses for his performances. You were supposed to clear up misconceptions and completely invalidate these characters, but you've indirectly given them flaws to exploit that they otherwise might not be able to solo. With his supposed inability to effortlessly dismiss them, it only gives them more chances to exploit flaws and work distractions the longer it goes on.

One girl can disarm him while he's on the offensive. One girl can tank an explosion using the same rubble that weakened him as a catalyst. One girl can actually amp off her love from him and take numerous force attacks and win. It seems a distraction that costs him is only imminent here.

They may not pose much of a challenge individually... again, maybe... but based on what I've gleaned from you "clearing everything up" it certainly seems like they have a shot; if not the upper hand.

If you've given me and Grey this much data based on what you've chosen to use specifically for your side, It really makes me wonder what else the novels are hiding...

Grey's apprentice ragdolling

I’d like to express interest in becoming Grey’s apprentice please

I'll respond tomorrow night or the following day.