Re: Marka Ragnos Respect Thread

[Trayus Marauder]

@VictreebelVictr

I'd say Luke's quote about Ragnos is legitimate. Even with the information Luke has, Ragnos is terrifying. For example, Ragnos having the ability to create artifacts that siphon large force nexuses as well as empowering legions of fighters with force powers is nothing short of terrifying.

[VictreebelVictr]

Done with the questions.

I appreciate you answering them, while holding off 3 other debaters simultaneously.

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

How does Vitiate get scaling that I'm operating by?

Everyone that you scaled below Naga Sadow would also be scaled below Vitiate.

If the Malak quote is your only line of defence on that front then I'm afraid your argument will come up short given that quote is questionable at best. (can elaborate on this if you wish)

Please do. You would be the first to debunk it.

Gnost-dural's report being dissected in the way I have makes sense given that a threat on any other level doesn't line up. For example, Sadow couldn't have become a military threat due to a shortage of overall supply in terms of resources that would align with a known and notorious Sith.

Or Sadow could just form a cult to infiltrate and destabilize the Empire like Revan did with his Revanites? Or possess someone as he did with Gynt and then destabilize the Empire from within? Terrorists are still threats to countries that have far more power and resources than them. Luke and the Rebel Alliance are a good example of this, and so are the Outlander and the Eternal Alliance.

If you take Gnost's words as true, then what Vitiate wanted was to not have to deal with both the Republic and ancient Sith when he returned. That's different than Vitiate fearing the ancient Sith as a stand-alone threat. Having to deal with multiple enemies at once is undoubtedly going to be more difficult than just having to focus on one enemy, and makes both enemies a greater threat than they would be on their own. Sadow or any other ancient wouldn't need the resources to fight a conventional war against Vitiate's empire or possess the Force power to rival Vitiate's to still be a threat, they merely have to be a big enough nuisance to jeopardize Vitiate's war against the Republic.

My quotes concerning Ragnos' supremacy are era-specific which are not the type of quote that Chee debunks. Chee is against supremacy quotes that stretch across many eras. There are Ragnos quotes that come in this form but I have not added any of those so that my RT aligns with Chee's word on a consistent basis.

Where does Chee say that?

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

"First to debunk it" Hilarious Praxis, did you and the others have a chuckle about that? SWTOR:E has contradicted it, 2014 FF has contradicted it, Power Beyond Belief may have capped the whole era beneath Sadow.

Kun isn't sub Vader 2.0 and he never was. I know TOR scaling, per your own admission, falls apart as soon as you lose said quote. But facts are facts.

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

@LadyKulvax

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Yes, as much substance as I thought.

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

@LadyKulvax

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Showing a brave face in light of an enormous loss is typical. I'll allow you to grieve.

[Darth Nihilus]

"First to debunk it" Hilarious Praxis, did you and the others have a chuckle about that? SWTOR:E has contradicted it, 2014 FF has contradicted it, Power Beyond Belief may have capped the whole era beneath Sadow.

Kun isn't sub Vader 2.0 and he never was. I know TOR scaling, per your own admission, falls apart as soon as you lose said quote. But facts are facts.

Literal delusion. Absolutely nothing has contradicted it. Unless someone can explain to me why Malak's mask can spit out Star Forge ships...

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Malak is sub all of the Dark Lords with mausoleums on Korriban per a far more relevant source than the web supplement:

Sith acolytes spill blood and prove their strength in the mausoleums of history's most powerful and legendary Sith Lords.

Kun's objectively stronger than Naga Sadow, at the very least, so there's one reason. Let's keep going, shall we?

Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They cheat death repeatedly. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought. They bend and twist the Force to their needs and desires as the dark side warps them into tools of its own. Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

That's Wizards of the Coast stating that the Triumvirate weilded power that Darth Revan and Darth Malak did not, which at the very least puts them on par with the two of them when coupled with the rest of the KotOR source material. As soon as that happens, we have the numerous statements that put the Triumvirate beneath Naga Sadow as confirmed by Chris Avellone like three times, and then the supporting evidence for that from the Prima Guide which states an almost prime K2 Exile is completely overwhelmed by, and stands no chance against, the mere remnant life energies of Ludo Kressh's tomb.

There's a bunch of other things too. But have fun with your delusion that Exar Kun is capped beneath Malak in what's most 2021.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Sith acolytes spill blood and prove their strength in the mausoleums of history's most powerful and legendary Sith Lords.

But Kun... doesn't have a mausoleum on Korriban? (Nor does Vitiate.) The quote clearly isn't all-restrictive. 

There's also countless quotes of this nature (e.g. "Meet the most powerful Jedi ever")--including one that, if this interpretation is used, pins Darth Revan and Caedus above Kun: The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?

That's Wizards of the Coast stating that the Triumvirate weilded power that Darth Revan and Darth Malak did not

Did you post the wrong quote? 

[S_W_LeGenD]

Malak laughs...

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Sith acolytes spill blood and prove their strength in the mausoleums of history's most powerful and legendary Sith Lords.

But Kun... doesn't have a mausoleum on Korriban? (Nor does Vitiate.) The quote clearly isn't all-restrictive.

Kun doesn't need a mausoleum on Korriban given he's objectively stronger than many ancient Sith in the source material, which this can't counter. Though luckily, it's evident that BiOWare treats Kun as a current Sith trapped on Yavin IV. Even likening him to Vitiate, and the quote is clearly about history's Sith Lords, not current ones, so Vitiate wouldn't have to be included and again, Kun probably doesn't need to be either. Especially given the same source gives Vitiate a few million most powerful accolades.

There's also countless quotes of this nature (e.g. "Meet the most powerful Jedi ever")--including one that, if this interpretation is used, pins Darth Revan and Caedus above Kun: The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?

Jedi Showdown is not canon, as we both know; it's literally just a scenario for the miniatures game, and SWTOR:E is obviously not of the same breadth of sources.

That's Wizards of the Coast stating that the Triumvirate weilded power that Darth Revan and Darth Malak did not

Did you post the wrong quote? 

Absolutely not. Me and a few others have gone over this and it quite clearly indicates the Triumvirate has power the rest of the KOTOR era's greatest Sith Lords do not.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Also, this isn't the place for a Malak quote discussion, so I'd advise the OP not to dwell on it. This is a strong RT, don't wanna tread on it.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Yes, Kun is canonically superior to Sadow, but your interpretation of that quote just means it’s a quote that puts Sadow over Kun. And over Nadd, too. And, again, you’re applying a hyper-literal all-restrictive interpretation to a run-of-the-mill, not necessarily semantically restrictive accolade, so I see no reason to arbitrarily exempt existing Sith Lords. So, ancient Sith > Vitiate/Malak > Kun/Nadd is what you’d get. It’s fitting for a respect thread like this but not for your arguments. 

It being a miniature scenario doesn’t preclude its contents from being C-Canon. It’s a licensed article.

Where does it say that? It just says they are “some of the greatest Sith Lords” of the era.

[lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three]

I find it funny how post-Leviathan Revan and the Jedi Exile as of the Onderonian Civil War can complete their missions on Korriban whilst facing a thousand generic Sith spirits there pressing in on them.



But apparently this explains why Sheev was cowed.

if it was literally any other character aside from luke, they would get so much shit for it lol

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Yes, Kun is canonically superior to Sadow, but your interpretation of that quote just means it’s a quote that puts Sadow over Kun. And over Nadd, too. And, again, you’re applying a hyper-literal all-restrictive interpretation to a run-of-the-mill, not necessarily semantically restrictive accolade, so I see no reason to arbitrarily exempt existing Sith Lords. So, ancient Sith > Vitiate/Malak > Kun/Nadd is what you’d get. It’s fitting for a respect thread like this but not for your arguments.

How does a quote that only talks about historical Sith Lords apply to Kun who is very much current, active and is treated as such in the game? Because it doesn't. This is talking about 'History's' Sith, not the current day Sith. The Timeline treats Kun as an active Sith, the game treats Kun as an active Sith, the Journal of Master Gnost-Dural even states Yavin IV is a no-go zone to this day directly because of Kun, and the Encyclopedia itself barely ever mentions Kun or any TOTJ characters at all. Malak is one of history's Sith Lords. Revan is not, Vitiate is not, Kun is not. They're all still around in the present day when the encyclopedia was written, by varying degrees.

It being a miniature scenario doesn’t preclude its contents from being C-Canon. It’s a licensed article.

And that doesn't help you out here at all. This doesn't mean such quotes get thrown out arbitrarily across the board. Because now all you're really saying is that WOTC has Darth Revan, Caedus, DT Sidious as well as Malak (Malak > Darth Revan is a thing they recognise too) as top four Sith ever. That's a position WOTC have taken as a whole, and then their positions en masse come under scrutiny and then what they claim comes back full circle in debates. That being highly debatable claims that weren't ignored because of whether or not it was licensed, but because of claims such as these.

Where does it say that? It just says they are “some of the greatest Sith Lords” of the era.

That's really not the smoking gun of the article. It is saying of the greatest Sith Lords of the KOTOR era, only the Triumvirate have under them the 'purview' of powers that equate to them being 'ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side'.

Now I know the obvious backlash is, lel Sion. Well here's the thing about Sion, all of his power is in immortality. He's a Corran Horn. His immortality is driven by his rage and willpower, it's his full focus.

1.It's literally claimed that Sion is:

Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury. He is a true, immortal manifestation of the Dark Side of the Force.

2.Sion tanks an enraged Force blast from Darth Nihilus and walks away:

{Nihilus turns, dark wave energy exploding from him, blasting Sion back, as supports smash down around him. It would be awesome if Sith soldiers are hurled about by Nihilus' power, or are disintegrated as he attacks Sion.}

"Now it ends. And the darkness comes."

[Gameplay Programmer: Sion stalks off, disgusted.]

So whilst in a combative sense, Sion can't begin to compare. When it comes to raw power, channelled via rage and willpower into immortality. He's pretty much one of the strongest ever as stated above, so yeah.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy. This latter event was not isolated. Some of the disciples of Ragnos had formerly been aligned with the dark sider Hethrir and his Empire Reborn, which had been defeated only a short time prior. Worse, soon after the encounter with Ragnos, the lifeless body of the reformed Sith acolyte Flint was found on Belderone: an ancient Jedi lightsaber in hand, a cauterized hole through his throat.

[The Merchant]

Ragnos is OP, yeah. People wanna try and read too much into Lukes statement about him, but we know that Luke and Katarn arrived seconds after Jaden defeated Tavion, implying they were rushing to Korriban as soon as they heard about Ragnos nearly coming back. Presumably if Jaden wasn't there then Tavion woukd have succeeded and Luke/Kyle vs. Ragnos indeed might have occurred.

[Indecentmortal]

Yall still using that children with toys quote from Kreia? I know it basically generalizes ancient sith lords but after Chris confirmed it was setting the stage for Kotor 3 and for the power they wanted the kotor 3 villains to reveal I wouldn't use it since it's purpose was to allude to them. That's not even the only problem with it.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

That's absolutely not the case.

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