Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

Here is a snapshot of the spirit of the Jedi Exile when she mention "everybody you murdered" with countless faces manifesting behind her:



Then the spirit of Revan mention that "The Force seeks balance! Always!"

- and then the tide of the battle begins to turn and Valkorion's forms begin to collapse one by one.

She is a Force ghost and she knows what is going on.

This wasn't a typical battle from any perspective. This was the battle.

luke destroys per the fact abeloth is the only one being that can present a challenge to him at his peak according to star wars insider

as for sheev vs valk? the former creampies the latter

The lord of hunger wrote:luke destroys per the fact abeloth is the only one being that can present  a challenge to him at his peak according to star wars insider

as for sheev vs valk? the former creampies the latter

So Luke Skywalker is stronger than so many Force-users put together? This does not make an iota of sense.

Abeloth could absolutely crush Luke inside the cave but she wasted this opportunity and help arrived. She could overwhelm Luke in the Beyond Shadows realm as well but Darth Krayt arrived and helped him carry to victory there. None of this is null and void in any capacity. Abeloth had much power in her but was not making sound judgements in battles - she was trying to fight more than she could chew in the end.

Valkorion transcended the Sith and no Jedi could ever hope to defeat him all alone. Face it.

Jokes aside, Valk, while shown to be exceptionally powerful, was still unable to harm the strike team once they combined their powers (prior to gaining the strength to overwhelm him from the energy of all of those he'd affected) and was even resisted by the Outlander alone until Tenebrae focused all of his energy on him. While a fight between Sidious and Valk would be close, I'd still give the edge to Sidious per his feats, scaling (vastly above the likes of Mace and Yoda at this point, who individually are superior to anyone on the strike team - even the Outlander), and general accolades. It'd be an amazing fight, however.

Throwing in Luke just turns a very close fight into one Valk has no chance of winning.

Spoiler:

BreakofDawn wrote:Jokes aside, Valk, while shown to be exceptionally powerful, was still unable to harm the strike team once they combined their powers (prior to gaining the strength to overwhelm him from the energy of all of those he'd affected) and was even resisted by the Outlander alone until Tenebrae focused all of his energy on him. While a fight between Sidious and Valk would be close, I'd still give the edge to Sidious per his feats, scaling (vastly above the likes of Mace and Yoda at this point, who individually are superior to anyone on the strike team - even the Outlander), and general accolades. It'd be an amazing fight, however.

Throwing in Luke just turns a very close fight into one Valk has no chance of winning.

Spoiler:

The Alliance Commander was not alone in this fight and no character had individual moments of glory in it. The protagonists had bind with each other in mind and spirit beforehand and they were helping each other get by. When some of the most powerful Force-users in history band together against the subject in mind and abilities and experience collective oneness on top, no entity can hope to defeat them in a battle under these circumstances, let alone a living being. Valkorion managed to send them all packing with a blast of power by the end and could cripple and finish them off one by one but countless spirits began to manifest and help them turn the tide of the battle as well as vanquish Valkorion for good.

Palpatine failed to overcome Luke Skywalker and his sister Leia Solo in a battle, and the Skywalkers collectively disrupted his connection to the Force (only one of them being a honed warrior at the time). Another much less capable Jedi sealed the fate of Palpatine a while later although he believed that the Jedi spirits will help him in this matter who are never shown manifesting anyways. Exar Kun as a Sith spirit humiliated a relatively stronger Luke at a later stage. Lord Nyax could handle an even stronger Luke afterwards. Valkorion is on another league in comparison to both Exar Kun and Lord Nyax - all aspects considered.

Luke and Sheev are not unstoppable forces that some of you try to make them out to be. Please don't push people to compile a list of their respective failures and make them a permanent point of reference in coming debates. This will set a bad precedent for much of the lore. It is important to have a realistic take of things in FICTION and in REALITY.

Cringe. Luke and Leia where able to break Palpatine's connection over the storm because Leia gave Luke a massive amp that allowed him to fight to the peak of his ability. 

Your also forgetting that every Jedi spirit in history up the point helped, along with this Jedi, to prevent Sidious from possessing Anakin Solo. 

Exar Kun also defeated Luke through Kyp Durron's power, not mostly his own.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Jokes aside, Valk, while shown to be exceptionally powerful, was still unable to harm the strike team once they combined their powers (prior to gaining the strength to overwhelm him from the energy of all of those he'd affected) and was even resisted by the Outlander alone until Tenebrae focused all of his energy on him. While a fight between Sidious and Valk would be close, I'd still give the edge to Sidious per his feats, scaling (vastly above the likes of Mace and Yoda at this point, who individually are superior to anyone on the strike team - even the Outlander), and general accolades. It'd be an amazing fight, however.

Throwing in Luke just turns a very close fight into one Valk has no chance of winning.

Spoiler:

The Alliance Commander was not alone in this fight and no character had individual moments of glory in it. The protagonists had bind with each other in mind and spirit beforehand and they were helping each other get by. When some of the most powerful Force-users in history band together against the subject in mind and abilities and experience collective oneness on top, no entity can hope to defeat them in a battle under these circumstances, let alone a living being. Valkorion managed to send them all packing with a blast of power by the end and could cripple and finish them off one by one but countless spirits began to manifest and help them turn the tide of the battle as well as vanquish Valkorion for good.

Palpatine failed to overcome Luke Skywalker and his sister Leia Solo in a battle, and the Skywalkers collectively disrupted his connection to the Force (only one of them being a honed warrior at the time). Another much less capable Jedi sealed the fate of Palpatine a while later although he believed that the Jedi spirits will help him in this matter who are never shown manifesting anyways. Exar Kun as a Sith spirit humiliated a relatively stronger Luke at a later stage. Lord Nyax could handle an even stronger Luke afterwards. Valkorion is on another league in comparison to both Exar Kun and Lord Nyax - all aspects considered.

Luke and Sheev are not unstoppable forces that some of you try to make them out to be. Please don't push people to compile a list of their respective failures and make them a permanent point of reference in coming debates. This will set a bad precedent for much of the lore.

The Outlander literally stands up before being empowered. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Please don't push a false narrative to wank a Sith who dies every other Tuesday. Frankly, all your posts do is further bury Valk and make others ridicule him instead of portraying his feats and scaling honestly.

SnowxElf wrote:Cringe. Luke and Leia where able to break Palpatine's connection over the storm because Leia gave Luke a massive amp that allowed him to fight to the peak of his ability.

Luke Skywalker defeated Palpatine by himself:



Source: The Dark Empire no. 6



Source: The Dark Empire no. 6

Then came the Force Storm which began to consume other starships in the vicinity.

And then Leia and Luke banded together in Force Harmony:



Source: The Dark Empire no. 6

- and then they disrupted Palpatine's connection to the Force which is why he lost control over the Force Storm:



Source: The Dark Empire Handbook

Not just them, Darth Vader felt that he could overcome Palpatine with support of Karness Murr but he feared the ancient Sith taking charge next.

SnowxElf wrote:Your also forgetting that every Jedi spirit in history up the point helped, along with this Jedi, to prevent Sidious from possessing Anakin Solo.

Do you have a picture of these spirits manifesting at the time for the needful? Nobody in attendance saw this happen. The Jedi Knight Brand believed that would be the case. Understand the difference.



Source: The Dark Empire Handbook



Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Jedi Knight Brand is credited for vanquishing Palpatine by and large.

SnowxElf wrote:
Exar Kun also defeated Luke through Kyp Durron's power, not mostly his own.

Kyp Durron was a Padawan at this point in time - Exar Kun was using his body to manifest his powers through him. This is similar to how Valkorion helped The Outlander overcome heavy odds in difficult situations.

BreakofDawn wrote:The Outlander literally stands up before being empowered. That's not up for debate, that's a fact. Please don't push a false narrative to wank a Sith who dies every other Tuesday. Frankly, all your posts do is further bury Valk and make others ridicule him instead of portraying his feats and scaling honestly.

The protagonists had bind themselves in mind and abilities for this battle beforehand - do I have to remind you of the obvious time and again?

When Valkorion separated The Alliance Commander from the others to kill him, Revan emerged to help him and pointed out the obvious:

"In a fight against you, no one is alone."

"He divided us. He knows that together, we are stronger than he can ever hope to be. - Revan

I have offered most comprehensive and informative accounts of Valkorion in my contributions. You have an opinion and I am addressing them in good faith but do not pin your biases on me.

The protagonists had bind themselves in mind and abilities for this battle beforehand - do I have to remind you of the obvious time and again?

The characters - Kira, Scourge, Arcann, Senya and the Outlander - had linked to enter Satele's mind. Not remotely the same thing. This is before they achieved Harmony:



And this is after:





Pretty obvious to anyone not going into it looking for an excuse. Per your logic, if the Harmony had kicked him by this point, then the rest would have started to stand. Yet even Vaylin, the second strongest of the group, was still on the ground even when the Harmony clearly started to kick in:



So no, Valk's Force Wave couldn't hold the Outlander (someone slightly below the titans) until he focused his power directly on him, and even then the Outlander wasn't immediately forced down, allowing Kira/Scourge, who was carrying that Harmony, to touch them and link with them as well.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:luke destroys per the fact abeloth is the only one being that can present  a challenge to him at his peak according to star wars insider

as for sheev vs valk? the former creampies the latter

So Luke Skywalker is stronger than so many Force-users put together? This does not make an iota of sense.

Abeloth could absolutely crush Luke inside the cave but she wasted this opportunity and help arrived. She could overwhelm Luke in the Beyond Shadows realm as well but Darth Krayt arrived and helped him carry to victory there. None of this is null and void in any capacity. Abeloth had much power in her but was not making sound judgements in battles - she was trying to fight more than she could chew in the end.

Valkorion transcended the Sith and no Jedi could ever hope to defeat him all alone. Face it.

Doesnt really matter considering Luke overpower her later on krayt or not but anyways i suppose by this point You Will try to claim and try mental gymnastics just to overwank a character that realistically should not Even put a thread to a TPM plagueis.

Ngl almost all the time some of this debates end in cringeworthy discussions

Not Even worth it

Good day to You sir

TLoH ragdolling

The lord of hunger wrote:
Doesnt really matter considering Luke overpower her later on krayt or not but anyways i suppose by this point You Will try to claim and try mental gymnastics just to overwank a character that realistically should not Even put a thread to a TPM plagueis.

Ngl almost all the time some of this debates end in cringeworthy discussions

Not Even worth it

Good day to You sir

I am not the one to speak without references and rechecking contents time-and-again.

Luke Skywalker defeated a Voice of Abeloth by capitalizing on the environment to his advantage only to be overwhelmed by another Voice which emerged after a short break. She could kill Luke right then and there but she wasted time coz PLOT ARMOR...

Valkorion too made a blunder by allowing The Outlander to strike him down on The Eternal Throne and then bind to his mind because he wanted others to see The Outlander striking down his son and daughter instead and then take over from within. Valkorion's family helped The Outlander foil his plans however.

Darth Plagueis - who had this to say about the feat of creating a VOICE:

The pneuma governs consciousness. Through this I am convinced that the energy pattern we know as self-awareness can be preserved and imprinted a second time into the neural pathways of a different brain. This process would be simplest with a cloned body that is identical to the subject's own, though in theory any advanced biological form would prove sufficient. Body swapping of this nature is riskier than simply sustaining one's own life through midi-chlorian manipulation. In dire emergency however, it could serve as an escape from oblivion.

From Darth Plagueis, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

And that is not wrong - the act of creating a VOICE in a living being is as difficult a feat as producing a Force Storm Wormhole as per D6 sourcebooks, and the most risky feat to attempt in comparison to any other because the threat of being vanquished in the process is/was really high (Two notable examples: Darth Bane failed versus Darth Zannah and Palpatine failed versus Jedi Knight Brand). Abeloth was creating VOICES in dead bodies and Palpatine was creating VOICES in cloned bodies.

Valkorion was the only Force-user throughout history who could produce VOICES in other living beings with much success.

Nevermind the fact that Valkorion could consume/devastate a massive planet with his powers.... a feat that would take thousands of Force-users to replicate otherwise.

I agree with the cringe part - I seldom get involved in debates myself in the present and I spend more time writing blogs instead. The cringe part doesn't have to be the case though - all one need is an open mind instead of sticking with absolutes all the time.

Clash of the omniverse

BreakofDawn wrote:

The protagonists had bind themselves in mind and abilities for this battle beforehand - do I have to remind you of the obvious time and again?

The characters - Kira, Scourge, Arcann, Senya and the Outlander - had linked to enter Satele's mind. Not remotely the same thing. This is before they achieved Harmony:



And this is after:





Pretty obvious to anyone not going into it looking for an excuse. Per your logic, if the Harmony had kicked him by this point, then the rest would have started to stand. Yet even Vaylin, the second strongest of the group, was still on the ground even when the Harmony clearly started to kick in:



So no, Valk's Force Wave couldn't hold the Outlander (someone slightly below the titans) until he focused his power directly on him, and even then the Outlander wasn't immediately forced down, allowing Kira/Scourge, who was carrying that Harmony, to touch them and link with them as well.

I see.

Well... Valkorion is actually responsible for making him that strong in the first place because he wanted to create a VOICE in him only for his efforts to be foiled by his own family members in the process.  

While a tremendous feat for The Alliance Commander relative to the others and it does show that he is the most powerful of the bunch but he was also experiencing a oneness moment of his own beforehand (see below), and his effort to resist does not amount to much because just one form of Valkorion brought him to his knees again and the entity as a whole was spending much energy keeping so many powerful Force-users on the ground on top.

Sequence of events:-

All of the major protagonists arrive to confront all forms of Valkorion in one place (composite format):



"Until now. Until every person who knows your weakness firsthand would come to face you." - Satele Shan

Most of them are among the most powerful Force-users in history - some being capable of defeating a conventional army out in the open and a few capable of dominating a world on their own [documented information].

The Alliance Commander was experiencing oneness at the time as per his own words:

"I am one with the Force, and the Force is with me." - The Alliance Commander

Then a LENGTHY FIGHT TAKE PLACE which eventually leads to the moment of Valkorion being able to send them all packing with an extremely powerful whirlwind of energy:





The Alliance Commander being the most powerful of the bunch somehow finds the strength to stand up only to be forced to resubmit by the original Tenebrae form, and before Valkorion could make his next move (a killing blow) - the chief protagonists suddenly begin to experience a collective oneness moment with their bodies glowing in the process and then countless spirits begin to manifest and only then Valkorion is defeated.

Abeloth also failed when trying to fight multiple powerful opponents at a time, and it only took Luke and Darth Krayt to vanquish her in Beyond Shadows. Luke still sourced the Dagger of Mortis just in case.

IMMORTALITY is the most powerful aspect of a Force-user in the lore - it cannot be undone with mere physical efforts.

Valkorion's IMMORTALITY was on another level in comparison to those of Sith Spirits - a league of its own. There was no conventional solution to it - what could work on a Sith Spirit was utterly useless against Valkorion. All of this is stated in the lore.

Cosmic Force have its rules and they cannot be bend for indefinite period nevertheless. There are significant consequences to it and no Force-user could last forever - it will perish one way or the other...

As Revan remarks in the end: The Force strives for balance! Always!

lame sources either way

Either of team 2 solos

Shimrra wrote:Either of team 2 solos

Yeah no. Exar Kun defeated Luke Skywalker who in turn could handle Palpatine. There is more to a fight than accolades, mind you. Luke also regarded Marka Ragnos as a substantial threat if he were to return. Valkorion is on another level in comparison to any Jedi and Sith by extension.

SnowxElf wrote:Exar Kun also defeated Luke through Kyp Durron's power, not mostly his own.

Kun's spirit is stated to be outright capable of defeating Luke on his own. He's also stated to be a magnitude of power beyond Kyp in JA and that Kyp's power came from Kun. Kun's also stated to have been 'toying' with them all, the whole time.

Luke Skywalker defeated Palpatine by himself:

I'm afraid not, you need to read the panels in more detail, Leia was already joined with Luke when Luke was dueling Palpatine. This is part of the reason why Luke was defeated by Palpatine in their first round, because he didn't have Leia's aid. Plus, Luke already admitted that he could not defeat Sidious alone. In the Audio drama Leia also speaks about joining her power to Luke before the duel. 

Luke: "Join your Jedi power with mine"
Leia: "I already am, Luke. Haven't you sensed it"


As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resource's in Luke.

Kyp Durron was a Padawan at this point in time - Exar Kun was using his body to manifest his powers through him. This is similar to how Valkorion helped The Outlander overcome heavy odds in difficult situations.

Kun wasn't using Kyp's body to manifest his own powers through Kyp, he was using Kyp's body to mainly manifest Kyp's own power:

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.
Dark Apprentice


Ultimately, [Exar Kun] has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.
Jedi Academy Sourcebook

This is how powerful Kyp could be, in Luke's own words:




There are many factors that lead to Luke loss (he wasn't fighting 100%) Kun also noted that he wasn't as powerful as Luke himself: 

To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man that visited Yavin Four years earlier, more powerful in the force. Too powerful for the moment for Kun to handle.
Jedi Academy Sourcebook

As to force spirits helping brand, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be factual and I believe there are other sources that confirm it as well.

I see. Well... Valkorion is actually responsible for making him that strong in the first place because he wanted to create a VOICE in him only for his efforts to be foiled by his own family members in the process.  

Once again, this remains unconfirmed. All we know is that Valk did something to the Outlander, consistent with his, Vitiate's and other's claims that the Outlander possesses Vitiate/Valk level potential. Chances are all he did was accelerate his growth, not arbitrarily give him extra power that - for some reason - was unaffected when he was destroyed the first time like it should have been (see Scourge's immortality for relevance).

While a tremendous feat for The Alliance Commander relative to the others and it does show that he is the most powerful of the bunch but he was also experiencing a oneness moment of his own beforehand (see below), and his effort to resist does not amount to much because just one form of Valkorion brought him to his knees again and the entity as a whole was spending much energy keeping so many powerful Force-users on the ground on top.

The "entity" is connected, simply manifesting as multiple beings at once. Your argument here just concedes that 2/3 of Valk's power in the form of a Wave couldn't stop the Outlander and it took the last third (and Tenebrae - the true form of the imprint - himself) specifically focusing on the Outlander just to overwhelm him.

It's largely irrelevant anyway, since it seems you've conceded that the Outlander was requiring a majority (at least) of Valk's power to force him back down and keep him there

The Alliance Commander was experiencing oneness at the time as per his own words:

"I am one with the Force, and the Force is with me." - The Alliance Commander

This is a blatant misconstruction. He said this in response to Vitiate's earlier claims that he was infinite.

"You think you're infinite. Only the Force is infinite. I am one with the Force and the Force is with me."

It's a meaningless phrase where the Outlander recites old Jedi teachings. It's not proof of Oneness, nor is there any physical sign, indication or implication of Oneness until much later (the golden glow).

Then a LENGTHY FIGHT TAKE PLACE which eventually leads to the moment of Valkorion being able to send them all packing with an extremely powerful whirlwind of energy

Please prove that it was "a lengthy fight". And don't use game or video times since they're not indicative of canonical length.

The Alliance Commander being the most powerful of the bunch somehow finds the strength to stand up only to be forced to resubmit by the original Tenebrae form,

He clutches his head because Valk's full power is starting to overwhelm him, when Tenebrae stops focusing on all of the characters and focuses his attack on the Outlander, allowing Kira (or Scourge) an opportunity to achieve Force Harmony. It takes most of Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's strength to do so. If anything, the Tenebrae form's power would have been the greatest of the trio, given that it's the true form of the plague and was clearly just manifesting future echoes of itself.

and before Valkorion could make his next move (a killing blow) - the chief protagonists suddenly begin to experience a collective oneness moment with their bodies glowing in the process and then countless spirits begin to manifest and only then Valkorion is defeated.

Which would be relevant, if I were arguing the Outlander could single-handedly take Valkorion.

Abeloth also failed when trying to fight multiple powerful opponents at a time, and it only took Luke and Darth Krayt to vanquish her in Beyond Shadows. Luke still sourced the Dagger of Mortis just in case.  

Abeloth failed because she spread her power and attention across countless forms at once, and as each was killed it weakened her significantly. At one point, Krayt is down and it takes all of Luke's strength to stop her crushing his throat.

Also, comparing the strike team to the Chosen One's son and one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time is really not a good idea.

IMMORTALITY is the most powerful aspect of a Force-user in the lore - it cannot be undone with mere physical efforts.

Immortality is not invulnerability. The mere fact that he was driven to the brink of death by the HoT pre-SoR is enough proof of that without even referring to the others (including Valkorion's own admission that he had to fight the pull of death when the Outlander or Arcann struck him down in KOTFE chapter 1).

Valkorion's IMMORTALITY was on another level in comparison to those of Sith Spirits - a league of its own. There was no conventional solution to it - what could work on a Sith Spirit was utterly useless against Valkorion. All of this is stated in the lore.

It's never stated to be greater. In fact, all that is said is that he had achieved a form the Ancient Sith had never managed to, which is true (with the exception of the likes of Kun, but even he was bound to the Temple). That doesn't make it remotely better than Sheev's for example, who not only achieved relative immortality, but found his way out of Chaos itself as a spirit.

Cosmic Force have its rules and they cannot be bend for indefinite period nevertheless. There are significant consequences to it and no Force-user could last forever - it will perish one way or the other...

As Revan remarks in the end: The Force strives for balance! Always!

[/quote]

...And the Force created a literal embodiment of its power (Light and Dark) in response to Plagueis and Sidious. Appealing to the idea of the will of the Force isn't a good basis given that the exact same logic applies to Sidious.

LadyKulvax wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Exar Kun also defeated Luke through Kyp Durron's power, not mostly his own.

Kun's spirit is stated to be outright capable of defeating Luke on his own. He's also stated to be a magnitude of power beyond Kyp in JA and that Kyp's power came from Kun. Kun's also stated to have been 'toying' with them all, the whole time.

 
Can I see them please.

Not as powerful as Luke, because he's got no energy. It's stated outright in COTF that he's > Luke. It's further confirmed in New Rebellion that he's > mid-novel Kueller and Kueller's > Luke. Kueller is also stated to have a kind of power that none of Luke's students ever did. Which insanely bumps Kun beyond JA Kyp. By the time Kun is at his best in JA, he's able to toy with Luke and Kyp.

This is all already common knowledge as presented in respect thread.