Windu vs Dooku & Ventress

OP isn't peak Mace, so it's irrelevant. Everyone knows he can hang with Yoda and Sidious in the right mindset. Every other time he's fought Dooku or Ventress, he hasn't been in that mindset.

Meatpants wrote:OP isn't peak Mace, so it's irrelevant. Everyone knows he can hang with Yoda and Sidious in the right mindset. Every other time he's fought Dooku or Ventress, he hasn't been in that mindset.

The OP didn't specify which Mace and referred to his defeating Sidious as a part of his resume. It stands to reason he meant prime versions for all, so Office Mace.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Considering his opponents as well as the overall presumed stipulations of these vs matches, there's no reason to assume that Mace will be restraining himself to tier 8 levels. He would logically cut loose to a level that is comparable to Sidious.

It's likely that tier 8 (bordering on 9) is suggesting that he is on the 9 level but he holds himself at the borderline due to Jedi power restraint that can be seen in individuals who wish to contain their inner darkness in most cases such as Luke or Anakin. Needless to say that if the situation called for it, their max power is freely accessible.

I do not think that is how it works. 

Mace cannot just "cut loose to a level comparable to Sidious" at will. He only reached that tier 9 level because his Vaapad capitalized on Sidious's extreme Dark Side power. It is a situational amp that is dependent on the Dark Side user Mace is facing. For example, if Mace is facing a light side user, then Mace is at tier 8 and isn't tier 9 Sidious level by any means. So his max power is definitely not just freely accessible and he likely won't be able to reach Sidious level with anyone else unless they are just as powerful as Sidious in the dark side.

Mace's overall power is dependent on the dark side power of his opponent (With him being tier 8 at minimum). So having "Peak Mace" is not really applicable as he won't be in that mindset unless it is Sidious specifically.

Rei wrote:

Trayus Marauder wrote:Considering his opponents as well as the overall presumed stipulations of these vs matches, there's no reason to assume that Mace will be restraining himself to tier 8 levels. He would logically cut loose to a level that is comparable to Sidious.

It's likely that tier 8 (bordering on 9) is suggesting that he is on the 9 level but he holds himself at the borderline due to Jedi power restraint that can be seen in individuals who wish to contain their inner darkness in most cases such as Luke or Anakin. Needless to say that if the situation called for it, their max power is freely accessible.

I do not think that is how it works. 

Mace cannot just "cut loose to a level comparable to Sidious" at will. He only reached that tier 9 level because his Vaapad capitalized on Sidious's extreme Dark Side power. It is a situational amp that is dependent on the Dark Side user Mace is facing. For example, if Mace is facing a light side user, then Mace is at tier 8 and isn't tier 9 Sidious level by any means. So his max power is definitely not just freely accessible and he likely won't be able to reach Sidious level with anyone else unless they are just as powerful as Sidious in the dark side.

Mace's overall power is dependent on the dark side power of his opponent (With him being tier 8 at minimum). So having "Peak Mace" is not really applicable as he won't be in that mindset unless it is Sidious specifically.

Considering the novel depicts Windu actively choosing to cut loose, I'd say that's exactly how it works. Vaapad is a tool of reflecting the dark side back at the opponent, it isn't an amp. Also, note that Gillard's tier system does not factor in Vaapad being a variable, it's an assessment of Windu's overall capability. So if it were situational, he wouldn't even be a part of the tier 9 discussion and a situational amp most certainly would have been factored into interview discussion or other notes.

Rei wrote:

Trayus Marauder wrote:Considering his opponents as well as the overall presumed stipulations of these vs matches, there's no reason to assume that Mace will be restraining himself to tier 8 levels. He would logically cut loose to a level that is comparable to Sidious.

It's likely that tier 8 (bordering on 9) is suggesting that he is on the 9 level but he holds himself at the borderline due to Jedi power restraint that can be seen in individuals who wish to contain their inner darkness in most cases such as Luke or Anakin. Needless to say that if the situation called for it, their max power is freely accessible.

I do not think that is how it works. 

Mace cannot just "cut loose to a level comparable to Sidious" at will. He only reached that tier 9 level because his Vaapad capitalized on Sidious's extreme Dark Side power. It is a situational amp that is dependent on the Dark Side user Mace is facing. For example, if Mace is facing a light side user, then Mace is at tier 8 and isn't tier 9 Sidious level by any means. So his max power is definitely not just freely accessible and he likely won't be able to reach Sidious level with anyone else unless they are just as powerful as Sidious in the dark side.

Mace's overall power is dependent on the dark side power of his opponent (With him being tier 8 at minimum). So having "Peak Mace" is not really applicable as he won't be in that mindset unless it is Sidious specifically.

From how I understood it, the "superconducting loop" was a one-off thing that happened when two characters of comparable levels of power/skill/ability actively tapping into everything they had (primarily Dark Side energy) collided, causing a reaction where the two couldn't overpower each other because they countered everything the other could do in either sabers or the Force. Mace's DS energy resonated with Sidious' - something it's never done before - and caused a loop that boosted both of them, hence why they were allegedly able to fight "forever" because the flow of energy wasn't leaving that loop. It's why it never happened when Mace fought Depa, the Count, or Kar Vastor, in all of which he kept to his Jedi restraint and only channelled the Dark in small amounts (Count & Kar) or not at all (Depa). He hadn't learned to "cut loose" and embrace his natural connection to the Dark Side and wield all of his power - including his darkness - until it became about more than his survival and became a battle for the fate of the Republic itself. All Sidious' own immense power did was cause an unexpected feedback loop that kept either from overpowering the other without some kind of advantage.

Until that point, ROTS Mace was a top tier 8, or an "8.5" (8, bordering on 9). It was that incentive that pushed him to forgo his Jedi restraint and cut loose, which bumped him up to a 9. This is just my take on it, though.

Trayus Marauder wrote:
Considering the novel depicts Windu actively choosing to cut loose, I'd say that's exactly how it works. Vaapad is a tool of reflecting the dark side back at the opponent, it isn't an amp. Also, note that Gillard's tier system does not factor in Vaapad being a variable, it's an assessment of Windu's overall capability. So if it were situational, he wouldn't even be a part of the tier 9 discussion and a situational amp most certainly would have been factored into interview discussion or other notes.

I disagree.
 
Windu “actively choosing to cut loose” meant that he was no longer afraid of the darkness within himself and utilizing its power. That does not mean that Windu can reach Sidious tier 9 level on his own simply because he “cut loose”. Vaapad functions on two sources of darkness: The user himself (Mace cutting loose to reach within his own darkness) and the opponent the user is facing. Together, they form a superconducting loop, which is composed of both user's darkness.

“Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
 
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.”
 
“Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office.”

Vaapad is a way of channeling the darkness and this darkness flows both ways i.e Vaapad channels the darkness that flows in both Mace and Sidious. This is made even clearer where Mace Windu is said to “accept the furious speed” of Sidious and drawing on “the shadow’s rage and power” and then letting it “fountain out”. This indicates that Mace is not only utilizing the darkness within himself, but also Sidious's darkness by drawing on Sidious's rage and power and then reflecting/fountaining it out against Sidious. Mace is also reflecting “the fury upon its sources” which again shows that Windu is capitalizing on Sidious’s anger and reflecting it back on him. More so, Vaapad is said to make Windu “half of a superconducting loop” where the other half is completed by Sidious meaning that the proficiency of Vaapad is dependent on both halves of the superconducting loop i.e the user himself and his opponent, which further solidifies my earlier point.
 
Clearly, Mace’s Vaapad is capitalizing on Sidious’s power and anger and is not an independent thing on its own. It is dependent on the opponent's dark side power.

Mace’s Vaapad again allows him to capitalize at Sidious’s dark power. 

“The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.”
 
“He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.”

Note of the term “circuit” in the first quote which further falls with the “superconducting loop” context earlier meaning that Mace is tracing the “limitless source” back across the circuit, which is composed of Mace and Sidious’s darkness.

I think it is very clear that Mace cannot just extend his power to Sidious level at will as his Vaapad is dependent on the opponent Mace is facing by forming a superconducting loop, dependent on both users, and channeling and reflecting this darkness back on the opponent. The more powerful his opponent is in the dark side, the more Vaapad will be able to channel and take advantage of his opponent’s dark side to fuel Mace’s loop/circuit. In this sense, Vaapad is indeed a situational amp, but not an amp in terms of a nexus context. It is an internal amp that Mace can access whenever fighting a dark side user.

@BreakofDawn

From how I understood it, the "superconducting loop" was a one-off thing that happened when two characters of comparable levels of power/skill/ability actively tapping into everything they had (primarily Dark Side energy) collided, causing a reaction where the two couldn't overpower each other because they countered everything the other could do in either sabers or the Force. Mace's DS energy resonated with Sidious' - something it's never done before - and caused a loop that boosted both of them, hence why they were allegedly able to fight "forever" because the flow of energy wasn't leaving that loop. It's why it never happened when Mace fought Depa, the Count, or Kar Vastor, in all of which he kept to his Jedi restraint and only channelled the Dark in small amounts (Count & Kar) or not at all (Depa). He hadn't learned to "cut loose" and embrace his natural connection to the Dark Side and wield all of his power - including his darkness - until it became about more than his survival and became a battle for the fate of the Republic itself. All Sidious' own immense power did was cause an unexpected feedback loop that kept either from overpowering the other without some kind of advantage.

I don't believe that the Vaapad amp boosted Sidious. When the novel talks about the fight being able to last forever I think that this is because in the office duel Sidious was extremely enraged and thrilled because he had waited very long for the moment in (his words). He was finally able to kill the Jedi around him that he disguised himself from for so long, because of this he was very thrilled/enraged and so he had basically a limitless amount of dark energy to draw from. But yeah, Mace capitalized on that dark energy and reached a state higher than he ever was before.

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. ". . . hurt . . ." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back. "Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security-someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!" Then he smiled. He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked. In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop. "That's enough of that." He let it burn its way free through the front, then he turned, lifting his weapon, appearing to study it as one might study the face of a beloved friend one has long thought dead. Power gathered around him until the Force shimmered with darkness. "If you only knew," he said softly, perhaps speaking to the Jedi Masters, or perhaps to himself, or perhaps even to the scarlet blade lifted now as though in mocking salute, "how long I have been waiting for this..."

"And it was darkening. Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation" 

As for Mace "letting loose". This could mean a few different things or maybe all of these. When Mace went to the office at the start his plan was originally to capture Sidious. I think this "letting loose" mainly means that his goal of capturing Sidious changed to killing him. Because Anakin's musings of Mace letting loose is associated with him having "lethal intent"

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening. Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

I don't believe that the Vaapad amp boosted Sidious. When the novel talks about the fight being able to last forever I think that this is because in the office duel Sidious was extremely enraged and thrilled because he had waited very long for the moment in (his words). He was finally able to kill the Jedi around him that he disguised himself from for so long, because of this he was very thrilled/enraged and so he had basically a limitless amount of dark energy to draw from. But yeah, Mace capitalized on that dark energy and reached a state higher than he ever was before.

The text specifies that the fight would have never ended because the two were so evenly matched in every way, and that neither would become fatigued:

But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "boost". I meant it boosted him in that neither he nor Mace, trapped in the loop that saw power flow to Sidious, being absorbed and then reflected, then being absorbed and reflected back, could truly overcome the other, not that it made him implicitly more powerful. The loop was a freak occurrence between two beings so evenly matched and operating on such a similar level that the energy both expended became trapped in this loop. It's never happened before, not even on Haruun Kal when Mace was pushed to his limits and was stripping away entire layers of restraint at a time.

As for Mace "letting loose". This could mean a few different things or maybe all of these. When Mace went to the office at the start his plan was originally to capture Sidious. I think this "letting loose" mainly means that his goal of capturing Sidious changed to killing him. Because Anakin's musings of Mace letting loose is associated with him having "lethal intent"

The difference is specified in Mace's P.O.V:

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
-

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

It's not a matter of capture vs kill. Mace is used to fighting for his life, but this time he's fighting against a being that can will destroy the Republic that he loves. At this moment he realises he can't afford to hold back and gives it absolutely everything he's got. That's what allows him to go from a top tier 8/8 bordering on 9 (while exercising restraint) to a solid 9 up with the titans (while giving it everything he possibly has). Anakin's musings also note the flow of dark power Mace is calling upon, and describes the Force as rippling and roiling around them because of the energy the two are throwing at each other while in that loop.

Windu is absolute trash and is sub AOTC Anakin and ESB Luke
Here's my evidence.

AOTC Anakin got his whole arm cut off by Dooku, and he reacted with a simple "uhhh".

ESB Luke got his hand cut off by Vader and he screamed for like a second and then was ok.

When Windu got his hand cut off, he cried like a bitch for 10 seconds, enough time for Palpatine to regain his focus and shock Windu with his powerful lightning.


This proves that Windu is physically weaker than ESB Luke and AOTC Anakin.

So in short, Windu has no business going up against this team

@BreakofDawn

The text specifies that the fight would have never ended because the two were so evenly matched in every way, and that neither would become fatigued

They were evenly matched but this would not stop both from becoming tired, which never happened in the fight. The reason they didn't become tired was because Palp's power was a "limitless source" for Mace to draw on. In other words, the reason why the fight could of gone on forever was because of the power radiating from Palpatine. 

The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

Since the text says Palp's dark power is limitless it raises the question to answer why it was. The only possible explanation for this is that he was excited to finally have revenge on the Jedi, which the text correlates with.

They were evenly matched but this would not stop both from becoming tired, which never happened in the fight. The reason they didn't become tired was because Palp's power was a "limitless source" for Mace to draw on. In other words, the reason why the fight could of gone on forever was because of the power radiating from Palpatine.

That's an unsupported interpretation you're putting on the text. Sidious' power is not limitless. If the power was simply going to him and being deflected back at him to match him, then Sidious would not only run out quickly (which is explicitly refuted by the novel) but be losing (again, refuted by the novel). Energy is flowing to and fro from each in a continuous loop, from Sidious, into Mace, DS energy of Mace's flows back to Sheev, Sheev counteracts with his own, rinse, repeat. Their energy isn't leaving the loop but both Mace's and Sheev's are going around and around between the two in an endless circle which - again - is stated:

But he could feel them in the Force.

The  Force  itself  roiled  and  burst  and  crashed  around  them,  boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin  could  feel  how  the  Force  fed  upon  the  shadow's  murderous  exaltation;  he  could  feel  fury  spray  into  the  Force  though  some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Power is flowing back and forth. Sidious attempts to overwhelm Mace with the Force, Mace counteracts with his own power and sends it back at Sidious. Again, you're claiming that Sidious is the primary contributor in the superconducting loop, which is not the case:

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue

The two both make up half of the loop. Sidious throws energy at Mace, Mace draws it into himself and, using his own powers, counteracts it, throwing Dark Side energy (his Dark Side energy via Vaapad) right back at Sidious, who then does the same back to him. The power never leaves that circle as the two are powering it at near-equal levels with their attacks and attempts to buffet the other with Force energy.

If we were to apply your logic that it was powered solely or even mostly by Sidious and it has nothing to do with Mace fully embracing and utilising his power or drawing upon all of his power, it would have happened here:

Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power. With each breath, he stripped away another layer of restraint and inhibition. Another layer of serenity. He had to move his inner peace out of the way to let in the joy. The thrill. The sheer okay-why-not-let's-FIGHT. Because Vaapad was more than just a form of lightsaber combat.

Which Mace explicitly notes is not the case:

Night had deepened upon the jungle, and around them glowvines began to pulse faintly. To use Vaapad now, out here, was incredibly dangerous-almost as dangerous as not using Vaapad.

The key difference here is Mace is still holding to his Jedi restraint. This restraint keeps Mace grounded and is meant to stop him from going too deep into the Dark Side. By the Office fight, not only has Mace learned to channel both his Light and Dark Side energy safely, but he's also managed to, for the first time, completely forgo his Jedi restraint, allowing his own Dark Side energy to flow through him (and the loop) and counteract Sidious'.

Since the text says Palp's dark power is limitless it raises the question to answer why it was. The only possible explanation for this is that he was excited to finally have revenge on the Jedi, which the text correlates with.

Again, Sidious' power is not limitless. The text is referring to it within the context of the loop, where the power Mace is counteracting then throwing back at Sidious via his own immense power that he can only tap into once he "cuts loose" is flowing to and fro between the two. Sidious' energy can't overwhelm Mace, and the Dark Side energy Mace is using to counteract that of Sidious' can't overwhelm Sidious. The two are locked in a stalemate whereby the two are so evenly matched and operating on a similar wavelength via their use of Dark Side energy that it's formed this loop, causing an eternal stalemate.

TLDR: The conducting loop is powered by both "halves" of it. Mace calls upon all of his Light and Dark energy as a result of learning to cut loose and gives it everything he's got. That power harmonises with Sheev's, so when Sheev blasts power at him, Mace draws it into himself then throws his own energy back at Sheev, who does the same before retaliating. The two are too evenly matched in power at this moment in time to gain an edge over each other, and Vaapad simply reacted to that harmonisation, turning it into a "superconducting loop".

The two both make up half of the loop. Sidious throws energy at Mace, Mace draws it into himself and, using his own powers, counteracts it, throwing Dark Side energy (his Dark Side energy via Vaapad) right back at Sidious, who then does the same back to him. The power never leaves that circle as the two are powering it at near-equal levels with their attacks and attempts to buffet the other with Force energy.

If this was the case Mace would not of been in midst of being overpowered by Sidious Force lightning.

How could Sidious be drawing from Mace's power as efficiently as Mace drawing of off Sidious' power using his Vaapad? Yeah, nothing backs up this interpterion. The fight describes Mace drawing power from Palp but never Palp drawing off of Mace.

If this was the case Mace would not of been in midst of being overpowered by Sidious Force lightning.

Raw Force energy is not the same as Force Lightning. Lightning is notoriously difficult to block. This isn't a good shift in your argument, no offence.

How could Sidious be drawing from Mace's power as efficiently as Mace drawing of off Sidious' power using his Vaapad?

I never said it was "as efficiently", otherwise I'd be saying that the two are absolute equals, not comparable, near-equals or evenly matched. I don't believe I've said Sidious and Mace are equal in power once, actually. That said, to answer your question the two are blasting each other with raw Dark Side energy via the loop connecting them, where power flows directly from their "cores" and into the loop where it then goes through the motions I've already described. Sidious harnessing that raw energy via absorbing it and redirecting it is not nearly as difficult than if the energy were a physical, palpable blast or explosion of Force energy like many other Force abilities are.

Yeah, nothing backs up this interpterion. The fight describes Mace drawing power from Palp but never Palp drawing off of Mace.

By this logic, I assume that you believe that Sheev's reserves are limitless? If so:

The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail.

I'm unsure where you got that impression from. Sidious' reserves might be immense, but they are not limitless. You'll need to provide a source not referring to the "superconducting loop" to evidence that.

Raw Force energy is not the same as Force Lightning. Lightning is notoriously difficult to block. This isn't a good shift in your argument, no offence.

Mace was literally deflecting the lightning back at him and it barley did anything to him while Mace was still being overpowered by it.

I never said it was "as efficiently", otherwise I'd be saying that the two are absolute equals, not comparable, near-equals or evenly matched. I don't believe I've said Sidious and Mace are equal in power once, actually. That said, to answer your question the two are blasting each other with raw Dark Side energy via the loop connecting them, where power flows directly from their "cores" and into the loop where it then goes through the motions I've already described. Sidious harnessing that raw energy via absorbing it and redirecting it is not nearly as difficult than if the energy were a physical, palpable blast or explosion of Force energy like many other Force abilities are.

Can you give evidence that Palpatine was using the energy in the loop to substance himself because he haven't convinced me yet.

 

By this logic, I assume that you believe that Sheev's reserves are limitless? If so:

The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail.

I'm unsure where you got that impression from. Sidious' reserves might be immense, but they are not limitless. You'll need to provide a source not referring to the "superconducting loop" to evidence that.

This shows you have not been understanding my argument. He was bloodlusted in the office duel which kept his force reserves from depleting.