Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

BreakofDawn wrote:
Valkorion has already lied to the Outlander about countless things

BreakofDawn wrote:
and the Outlander already had Vitiate+ potential.

BreakofDawn wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if all Valk did was accelerate his growth (to prevent him from burning out from getting too much power too quickly but enough to boost him to the point he needs him to be at to possess him, i.e. at an accelerated growth rate towards his full potential). Regardless, there's a clear distinction between when Valk was powering the Outlander and when the Outlander was acting independently (it's never noted at any point beyond the fight with Arcann that Valk is helping), and that never happens when he fights Vaylin, including at the end of KOTET when he either defeats her singlehandedly or both her and Arcann simultaneously.

BreakofDawn wrote:
Also worth mentioning that Valkorion himself makes countless references to the Outlander's innate potential and his ability to become far more powerful than he currently is, so the idea that he drastically increased the Outlander's innate potential makes very little sense to me.

BreakofDawn wrote:

I've no idea how you can make that assumption given no one else even tried to do so. The context is equally important given that you're implying KFV or another tier 9 couldn't replicate it, or more importantly that it's not a contextual feat that isn't combat applicable.

BreakofDawn wrote:
At best she was providing 1/3 of the power to lift the Gravestone along the Outlander (who even when weakened vastly outstrips her in power) and Senya. It's virtually impossible to quantify exactly how much power she was providing.

BreakofDawn wrote:
...Okay? Koth was also slammed into a wall by Vaylin and shook it off, and he's a NFU. I fail to see the link between their recovery rate in a game (hell, the Outlander is able to fight briefly after being stabbed through the gut in gameplay despite barely being able to stand) and their Force power. That's willpower/plot driven, not a marker of Force power.

BreakofDawn wrote:
These aren't combat feats.

BreakofDawn wrote:
This is irrelevant.

BreakofDawn wrote:
I assume we can quantify who that single Horizon Guard has seen display their power, then? Because frankly, it's an empty accolade. At best he's seen Arcann's power, who's already only ~ chained Vaylin.

BreakofDawn wrote:
Where is she struggling there? She's deliberately tormenting him and shows no visible sign of effort.

BreakofDawn wrote:
I'm fully aware of Vaylin's feats. You've probably misread my post as claiming Lana ~ chained Vaylin when I was actually pointing out how even characters massively sub chained Vaylin (such as Lana, who was ragdolled by her) can send Knights flying, dispatch several, and pretty easily break through their passive Force defences. Ragdolling a group of them isn't nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be.

BreakofDawn wrote:
First, the Republic and Empire were both heavily weakened by years of war. Second, that's not how the Eternal Empire won the war, only individual battles:

O: Which side did Arcann attack first?
L: Both. Ships from the Eternal Fleet struck at shipyards and rallying points for both sides simultaneously. They favoured ambush tactics throughout the war. Zakuulan sensor technology has far greater range than our own and their ships can fly much further on less resources. Only vessels retrofitted with isotope 5 could manage to outrun them. None could truly compete.
O: How long did the Republic and the Empire manage to hold out?
L: Within three months, the bulk of our naval forces were disabled or eliminated, and the Republic was in the same situation. With naval superiority Arcann's forces could begin choking off supply lines, trade, any ship travel at all. The eternal fleet seemed to be everywhere at once. Coruscant and Dromund Kaas were blockaded by the end of the first year.

The Knights might be superior to the average Jedi or Sith, but that's after years of warfare that weakened both sides and the reason they won is because of the Eternal Fleet. No details are given regarding the losses on both sides in ground battles.

BreakofDawn wrote:
You've yet to prove that manhandling Knights of Zakuul - who are around the same level as fodder Jedi/Sith in the game - is something the likes of KFV couldn't replicate.

BreakofDawn wrote:
He's communicating to them mentally, so no, it's telepathy.

BreakofDawn wrote:
I feel like you're referencing Fold Space, which is something completely different. He's not reality warping, he's perception altering. He's basically doing this, if you'll forgive the use of a separate franchise to give a comparison:

BreakofDawn wrote:
Or he wanted to make sure everyone was dead and did it systematically as he was ordered to. KFV scales above characters who could collapse buildings approaching that scale and he himself has TK feats from when he was Anakin that compare. Collapsing the Temple would not only have been ineffective, but pointless as the Jedi would have still escaped.

BreakofDawn wrote:
Ok, and? The quote doesn't mean anything.

DarthFatcow wrote:Vaylin isn't beating a tier 9 who's above Yoda and equal to RoTS Sidious in power, let alone Luke, lol.

Lightsaber dueling TIERS conceived by Nick Gillard is not self-sufficient consideration

Numerous variables are likely to decide a victor in a duel for the combatants involved.

Try to reconcile Obi-Wan Kenobi's victory over Darth Vader in a duel on Mustafar with Nick Gillard's TIERS for instance; does not fit in.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.

In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.

DarthFatcow wrote:
The tiers were conceived by Lucas and Gillard, by default making the highest form of canon.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. And Gillard explained that, in regards to the mindset and mentality of a combatant.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Context and Circumstances :
1. Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and his style, already giving him an advantage
2. Obi Wan had an environmental advantage
3. Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan.
This doesn't prove that the tiers don't fit in, at all.

DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not questionable or fallible. Those tiers were created by Lucas and Gillard :

In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity

They weren't solely conceived by Gillard himself.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if we throw out the tiers made by Lucas and Gillard, Vaylin doesn't really have anything to suggest that she's even remotely on Anakin's level in terms of lightsaber combat, and he can outlast her with RoTS Sidious level force reserves.  

The rating system [in question] helped them keep tabs on advances in dueling skills of characters introduced in the movies. For example, Anakin Skywalker was rated TIER 6 when he fought Count Dooku on Geonosis (Episode 2), and was rated TIER 9 when he fought Count Dooku on Invisible Hand (Episode 3).

That is the point of it.

How can WE (the fans) reconcile said rating system with content outside the movies? How can WE figure out which Legends character fit in which TIER of Lightsaber dueling and moved from which TIER to which TIER as they developed further?

Meaningful hint: WE cannot.

Duh? The rating system [in question] cannot be taken at face value for deciding hypothetical versus contests because it does not factor-in numerous variables which can be instructive otherwise.

1. Both understood each other well enough - neither had any advantage in this context.

2. Not throughout; Darth Vader was not even able to Force push Obi-Wan Kenobi around (shame).

Darth Vader wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration since he was fighting in a deadly environment and was able to navigate through it and carry himself very well while exchanging blows with his opponent.

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river.

Darth Vader being rated TIER 9 in his skills with a Lightsaber did not help him achieve breakthrough against Obi-Wan, or did it?

And you know that for sure?

Vaylin is in the TIER of the most skilled duelists in her time since she stalemated Arcann in a duel who in turn was able to handle 'any' character class considered for The Outlander (this is by design).

The Outlander could be the legendary Hero of Tython (cue BioWare promotion materials) and just this consideration provides much needed depth to help evaluate both Vaylin and Arcann in the aspect of skills with a Lightsaber.

Vaylin also have prodigious Force powers - above and beyond the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku.

Vaylin is very well equipped to challenge Anakin Skywalker from virtually any perspective and as a whole.

Anakin was capable of spectacular feats with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis due to his mindset - he is difficult to evaluate in the versus context. He defeated Count Dooku but lost to Obi-Wan in the span of same Episode.

DarthFatcow wrote:
You're right. In a sense that it it would be difficult to rank characters based on said system that exist outside of G-Canon. You can evaluate said character's showings and accolades and compare them to tier 8's and 9's and see how they stack up. It'

DarthFatcow wrote:
How can it not factor other variables when the person who made co created has flat out said the mindset and mentality matter?

DarthFatcow wrote:
Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we.

DarthFatcow wrote:
The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. He clearly wasn't lacking in combat applicable concentration, that's why he decided to attack an opponent who had the advantage of higher ground. Does that really sound like someone who's at a 100% mental state?

DarthFatcow wrote:
This quote is already overridden by higher canonical sources, such as the tiering system which you don't consider valid. Gillard has basically said that the mental aspect was a key reason to Obi Wan's win on Mustafar.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. This also alludes to the fact that Anakin's mental state was obviously hindered.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Again, you're omitting the mental discipline, which Gillard has explained plays a crucial factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Anakin's mentality along with the environmental advantages Obi Wan had are the two main reasons why Obi Wan won. He didn't win through skill, because on any other neutral battle ground Anakin would have steamrolled through Obi Wan.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Vaylin's time doesn't have duelists that are even as half impressive as Grievous. And Last I checked neither the outlander nor Arcann have equal lightsaber combat skill to RoTS Sidious, whom Anakin is equal to.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if The Outlander was The HoT,  Anakin already scales so far above that.

DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin also has force powers above and beyond Obi Wan and Count Dooku. Anakin was also effectively equal to RoTS Sidious.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Based on what?

DarthFatcow wrote:
He really isn't difficult to evaluate at all. His showings are pretty straight forward. We already know what a mentally stable Anakin is capable of, like steamrolling Count Dooku, steamrolling through the Jedi temple and single handily holding back an atmosphere storm. And we know what a mentally unstable Anakin isn't capable of, which is not being able to beat Obi Wan, even though he outskills by a large margin. Those two showings don't really contradict each other. And for that matter, that Obi Wan showing is the only real notable showing a mentally unstable Anakin has. We know what both mindsets are capable of. You're choosing to focus the mentally unstable one and assuming he's going to fight Vaylin in an unstable mindset, which he really won't. If we're gonna argue consistency of showings Vaylin couldn't one shot Koth. So yeah I think I'm going to stick to my arguments until I see something that convinces me otherwise.

Key takeaways:

- The rating system adopted by him was a Base Construct to help him write for each character
- Difference between 7 and 9 is enormous
- Difference between 8 and 9 is cheat
- Enlightened pathway to higher TIER (the right way)
- LSD pathway to higher TIER (temporary gains)
- The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat became the law (canonized by his peers)

Nick Gillard felt the need to have a BASE CONSTRUCT to help him write for each character to keep up with demands of storytelling while working with George Lucas and he came up with a rating system (a conceptual framework) for the needful. This rating system fell short at providing meaningful answers for 'which character will defeat the other in a potential duel' nevertheless and The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat were conceived and advanced for the needful in its place. The bolded theme help explain how Anakin outdueled Count Dooku and how Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin (Episode 3) - see [2] below.

"But they are enlightened; they have done it the right way - they have learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours. You cheated your way there. And that is how I see with Anakin - his training wasn't good enough; he was too old; he got trained too late; he got twisted by the dark side. He took Force LSD. And that is what made him a nine - so that's dangerous. You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard

Emphasis mine. Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every character in his time and otherwise

This battle was a powerful vision experienced by Master Yoda before the events of Episode 3 but it is noteworthy due to belligerents being accurately scaled relative to each other and it foreshadow events to come. Anakin manage to outduel Count Dooku and dismember him much like on the Invisible Hand but when he confronts Palpatine, he finds himself to be completely outmatched and is overwhelmed. At a closer look, Palpatine is able to duel both Anakin and Yoda at the same time and overwhelm the former in the process. This vision is in sync with ground realities established in Episode 3. Thanks in part to this vision, Yoda knew better and convinced Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to confront Anakin instead. Even if Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda in the latter's duel with Palpatine, he would have been easily dismissed by the powerful Sith Lord. Only Yoda could keep up with Palpatine for a respectable amount of time in a potential battle.

Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but he was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis. The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and develop the prerequisite 'mental discipline' to harness them. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far

Logically and realistically - Anakin had become one of the most powerful Jedi in his time besides Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Yoda. He have his fair share of impressive feats to account for.

However, Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every ancient character introduced in the mythos unless his 'command of the Force' outstrip that of each, does it?

So the student could not surpass his Master and/or defeat him? Anakin was forbidden to learn from other sources?

"Soresu is well served by Obi-Wan's innate capacity for patience and perception, but the key to mastery is audacity, a talent he has learned from Anakin."

Anakin pointed out to Padme that he have acquired new powers:

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

Those 'new powers' would be courtesy of Palpatine and/or experiences detached from Obi-Wan.

Anakin was a practitioner of Form V whereas Obi-Wan was a practitioner of Form III; the two diverged in this respect since the events of Episode II.

Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.

"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu." - Anakin Skywalker

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to cope with stresses of the environment much like Anakin:

- as well as Anakin's powers:

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him. Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment .
.
.
He let it go. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

- in which Anakin produced a tsunami of lava and pushed it towards Obi-Wan, the latter was able to counter this move with his defensive applications, leap towards Anakin's pod and cut him to size. Straightforward victory in this case.

The alternative battle sequence was not considered because Lucas did not want to advance Obi-Wan as being the "aggressor." This battle sequence nevertheless show that Obi-Wan was more than capable of handling Anakin in a duel.

Anakin wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration on Mustafar (there were situations in which a single misstep could lead to fall into lava).

Anakin is not unique in miscalculating his options - numerous characters are guilty of bad judgements and lost their lives in the process. Nobody living have infallible judgement all the time.

Anakin did show bad judgement when Obi-Wan reached the higher ground much later in the course of the duel.

Count Dooku's loss to Anakin on Invisible Hand can also be attributed to bad judgement on his part because Palpatine convinced him that he would intervene should he falter. Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil provide much needed backstory context to this duel.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

This is not to say that Anakin could not defeat Count Dooku under normal circumstances (cue revelations in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization) but the latter could fight his way out of the Starship and escape - using his Force powers - if he had known that he was expendable and Palpatine would betray him (the bigger picture).

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."
Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Like this:

If Count Dooku was there on Mustafar, he could defeat Obi-Wan in a duel - higher ground or not.

Anakin could not break through Obi-Wan's defenses on the other hand and ended up fighting Obi-Wan on his strongest terms (proficiency in Form III of Lightsaber combat); this is why Anakin failed. Count Dooku's proficiency in Form II of Lightsaber combat had become a weakness (versus Anakin's proficiency in Form V of Lightsaber combat) - a weakness not applicable to Obi-Wan and he had a better shot against Anakin therefore

Gillard's assertions can be instructive but do not override published statements. Obi-Wan transcending his emotional attachment with Anakin in order to defeat him, is a revelation which add context to their duel on Mustafar and advanced by several sources (see above).

For years I have noticed some fans refusing to come to terms with Anakin's loss to Obi-Wan in a duel and offering questionable rationalizations in debates. About time somebody question these rationalizations.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." = Anakin looked down upon Obi-Wan and refused to consider the possibility that he could be defeated.

Overweening = "being too proud or confident in yourself." (Cambridge)

Arrogance = "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions." (Merriam-Webster)

Overweening arrogance = "excessively arrogant or presumptuous" (Google)

Try to reconcile the aforementioned with [2] and you have the perfect answer. Consider the alternative battle sequence in the mix if you still have doubts.

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance'.

So much for the 'mental hindrance' theory for Anakin...

Am I? See above.

And how did you figure all that? Anakin is not equal to Palpatine in Episode 3 (see above)

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This new generation of the Jedi proved able to cope with all manner of challenges coming their way from Lord Vivicar's Plague to powerful Children of the Emperor and more. The Empire threw everything at them from sophisticated War Droids to Tanks and Walkers, to no avail. Some of the most sophisticated and capable Droids and Armored Vehicles are witnessed in the SWTOR times - much of the stuff that you see in PT look inferior in comparison (as if the technologies of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and Hutt Cartels were lost in time). Palpatine revived the trend of fielding impressive technologies nevertheless (credit where due).

Do not be fooled by gameplay mechanics - an average Sith Warrior on the battlefield could wield his blade like a PRO producing BLURRING EFFECTS in the process much like General Grievous and Obi-Wan - watch the Hope Cinematic Trailer carefully. It was due to her blinding speed that Satele Shan was able to cut some of them down while advancing towards Darth Malgus. The Havoc Squad was/is the Republic's finest at the time - these troops were equipped with sophisticated body armor, personal supports enabling superhuman reflexes, and heavy firepower to cope with Sith Warriors in the battlefield (the very best of Republic technologies were in the reach of these troops in short). The Battle of Aldeeran was by no means a regular development.

The legendary Hero of Tython represented the very best of the Jedi Order (SWTOR) and lived up to his hype with his exploits by outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Sith who stood in his path. These include Lord Praven who was particularly renowned for defeating Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order) in an 'epic' duel and the Emperor's Wrath who could see Shatterpoints in addition to being one of the finest swordsmen in the history of Sith. The Emperor's Wrath had the opportunity to work with both Revan and Meetra Surik centuries earlier and was convinced that the legendary Hero of Tython was the same man whom he had foreseen in his visions and also "the Jedi's finest." The legendary Hero of Tython defeated some of the most powerful Sith in his time including Darths Angral and Decimus who rivalled Darth Malgus, and was able to cut down dozens of the Imperial Guard while making his way to The Sith Emperor Voice (Valkorion) on Dromund Kaas and counter his Doppleganger effects while confronting him. The Imperial Guard shared a powerful bond with Valkorion and could draw on his strength to defeat the Jedi and Sith who dared to cross their path. The legendary Hero of Tython became the most powerful Jedi in his time and possibly history

General Grevious had his moments of glory on the battlefields by virtue of his cybernetics and skills with a Lightsaber (being able to wield up to FOUR lightsabers at a time) but he failed to outduel (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen of his time such as Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan when he had to engage each [1 on 1]

. General Grevious did manage to defeat a number of Jedi in single combat but with support of MagnaGuards in some of the cases. General Grevious's reputation was that of a coward by the end of The Clone Wars because he preferred to FLEE from seemingly intimidating situations

His luck ran out on Utapau however when (now powerful and battle-hardened) Obi-Wan chased him and terminated him for good.

I am rather surprised why no Jedi was able to crush this fool with Force powers (Plot Armor much?).

Don’t let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, general. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side; for if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them, before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory... and have your trophy

There is no guarantee that General Grievous could rise and shine in the SWTOR times. Some of the biggest and most formidable droids, and even entities, got their @sses handed to them in these times.

"Only in your mind, my very young apprentice." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

The assumption that Anakin is in the league of Palpatine and Yoda is based on unsubsantiated hype in large part which I addressed above.

The legendary Hero of Tython scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen who made their mark in history, and defeated some of the most powerful Sith Lords to have ever existed and also a Voice of Valkorion in single combat. His credentials are even better than that of Anakin

Vaylin was able to handle the most skilled combatants in her time who in turn scale from The Alliance Commander who in turn might be the legendary Hero of Tython who in turn scale from numerous expert swordsmen who made their mark in history.

Let us consider the rating system adopted by Nick for fun:

Obi-Wan was rated TIER 7 in Episode 2 and TIER 8 in Episode 3.

A lone Acklay beast warranted Obi-Wan's full attention on Geonosis:

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect.

Vaylin would fit in TIER 9 - all aspects considered.

Vaylin's 'command of the Force' and 'raw power' is second only to Valkorion who in turn is advanced as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources.

Vaylin's mastery of the SENSE spectrum reached a stage and her 'command of the Force' developed to the extent that she was able to respond to Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum. Just this part suggest that she can keep up with responses and speed of virtually 'any' Force-user including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker.

Vaylin's ability to withstand external forces and stresses was phenomenal in any respect. She is the 'only' Force-user to have walked out from the Sanitarium - alive (lasting much longer on Nathema than any Jedi or Sith could). She is the 'only' Force-user to have withstood energies produced by the BRAIN (an experimental superweapon) which were LETHAL to the extent of 'atomizing' other Force-users and one-shot The Alliance Commander (if he is caught in the course of gameplay). She also withstood hyperdrive explosion at point blank range, shielding and saving her mother Senya Tirall from certain death in the process.

Vaylin could tear apart massive structures including Skyscrapers as if they were nothing, destroyed an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul including their ships and shuttles with her telekinetic powers in open environment - who were opposing her on Ord Mantell (Darth Marr and Satele Shan - both conceded inferiority of the Jedi and Sith to the Knights of Zakuul in open clashes irrespective of the training regime adopted and talents acquired),

and she was capable of 'mass destruction' as per Valkorion.

Anakin is noted for tilting a Conqueror-class dreadnought (Telekinesis), destroying a large droid (Telekinesis), redirecting an escape pod carrying Durge towards the SUN while watching it from a Starship (Telekinesis), collapsing a large dome (Force Scream; raw power), and sending Count Dooku packing with a kick (or Telekinesis) on separate occasions. All of these feats are well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times to replicate.

Vaylin is on another level in comparison.

The 'mentally unstable' argument for Anakin can also be extended to Vaylin in view of how Valkorion treated her and what she had to endure on Nathema

Vaylin was denied the opportunity to realize her true potential and develop her powers much like other Force-users by her father because he feared that she would surpass him in time. When Vaylin managed to unchain herself, her powers began to grow exponentially and Valkorion stressed that she must be stopped/killed before she becomes too powerful for virtually 'any' Force-user to handle.

When Vaylin unchained herself:

1. She caught a number of ELITE Knights of Zakuul in a Force Choke, lifted them all from the ground, and one-shotted them all mid-air.
2. She destroyed Sanitarium on Nathema by virtue of causing the BRAIN to explode with a mere thought. The resultant destruction affected Nathema by and large. Not just this but producing effects of this level on Nathema is a mystery in itself. Nathema Zealots, the only faction of Force-users, to successfully adapt to conditions of Nathema, could do no such thing.
3. She demonstrated Battle Meditation in the league of Bastila Shan and Palpatine.
4. She produced a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will when she was mortally wounded in a fight with The Alliance Commander and his powerful companions. This expression of power began to tear the entire setting apart and incapacitated all Force-users caught in its field but The Alliance Commander who was able to impale her with a Lightsaber before things got worse ("You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit.").

All of the above in the space of just two episodes; at this pace of growth, she could reach the stage of producing Force Storms, consuming worlds, and manipulating cosmic bodies much sooner than expected. And probably more.

Should I attribute Vaylin's defeat in point 4 to her mental instability?

Let us assume mentally stable Vaylin then. Does not bode well for Anakin.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Buddy, this is a vision sequence. You can't use it to gauge anything.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
If i were to go that route Anakin defeated Mace Windu in an alternate version of RoTS, and that goes perfectly in sync with RoTS given how Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku and the latter's relative parity to Mace.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Anakin's raw power mopped the floor with someone who had over 75 years of training.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time by virtue of having multiple accolades. Let alone the fact that he was flat out stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the opening of the RoTS Novel which Lucas himself edited.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
I already told you it's difficult to gauge characters that don't exist in G-Canon and that we need showings to place them on it. You're yet to show me a single showing for Vaylin that suggests she can last 3 minutes against Anakin.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Buddy, you're missing the point. I was mentioning the factors and advantages that led to Obi Wan's win. One of those being that he was the one who trained him. That along with Anakin's mental state all factored in to Anakin's defeat on Mustafar.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
And again, you're mentioning the mental discipline for Obi Wan but conveniently omitting it when in regards for Anakin. Anakin never had the mental discipline as Obi Wan, Gillard flat out states that. Gillard also states that Obi Wan doesn't make mistakes, Anakin did and it cost him the fight. Him not being mentally discipline enough coupled with other factors that I've already mentioned are the reasons why he lost.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Couple of things wrong here :  

1. Anakin's own subjective opinion =/= fact  

2. Lucas has flat out stated that Mace can contend with RoTS Sidious. Yoda said Obi Wan was not powerful enough to fight Sidious. Unless you're trying to argue Obi Wan is as powerful as Mace therefore he can contend with Sidious, this argument doesn't work. This statement is invalidated by higher canonical sources that are more reliable than Anakin's own subjective view of Obi Wan.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
This only states that they were able to withstand the heat by cocooning themselves using the force. How does this prove anything? When I said environmental advantages I wasn't referring to temperatures, lol.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
This doesn't 100% mean they're equal in force powers, given that Anakin is canonically the most powerful Jedi of his time.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
If anything this statement proves my point of Obi Wan having an environmental advantage. The fight wasn't on neutral ground. Obi Wan knew that and used it to his advantage.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
A statement which is already invalidated by higher canonical sources as I've shown in previous posts.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Obi Wan having feelings towards Anakin and having an attachment to him proves your point how? Unless you're gonna use this quote to argue that Obi Wan was holding back and once he stopped he won, and ignoring the litany of reasons that you have done so far, this doesn't work.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Alternate scenes are not applicable here. I can also use alternate versions of RoTS that had Anakin beating Mace Windu.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Pal, when I say Anakin was mentally hindered I don't mean he became a retard who can't swing a lightsaber properly and can't walk without tripping.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Yes. Due to his mental state. Or are you constantly going to ignore that?

DarthFatcow wrote:  
This argument is refuted by the RoTS Novel itself when Dooku decides he's no longer going to follow his master plan and would try and kill Anakin :  

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than  a new apprentice.

Dooku had always known of the reality of the Sith for betrayal, Sidious already said this :  

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."  

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

DarthFatcow wrote:  
It was blatantly obvious that Sidious orchestrated this whole thing to test Anakin. Dooku was never meant to do anything. He blasted him away when he realized if he held back too much he would be dead. Dooku was literally throwing forks at Anakin.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Dooku would beat Obi Wan on Mustafar because he's far more disciplined than Anakin ever was. Dooku would have won on Mustafar because his mental state would not have been similar to Anakin. Both Anakin and Dooku outclass Obi Wan in just about everything. The difference between them is that if Dooku was on Mustafar his mental state would not have been as Anakin's.  I'm not really going to constantly repeat myself over Anakin's mental state. You can accept or not accept, it doesn't really change that it was a factor.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Ah yes. The ever so fun argument that Dooku only lost to Anakin because of a stylistic disadvantage. Which is negated by the sheer amount of statements saying Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku, beyond the fact that the RoTS Novel states that Dooku's lightsaber skills were a joke next to Anakin's.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
Pal, for the millionth time, Gillard's assertion are G-Canon. The whole tiering system is G-Canon. It overrides every other secondary sources. I've already said this to many times.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
And for years it's been explained why Anakin lost. Every advantage Obi Wan had is clear as day. Because if we go by what you're arguing that would mean Obi Wan is > Dooku, Mace, Yoda and is = RoTS Sidious. You not willing to see those advantages and purposely omitting them doesn't change the reality.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
It's not a theory. It's been explained by Gillard who's words in the context of the PT are G-Canon. You constantly ignoring that doesn't change it.

Yeah, you are. What you're arguing literally contradicts G-Canon.

DarthFatcow wrote:  
All tier 9's are equal in skill. You constantly ignoring that the tiering system is G-Canon yet again does not change reality.

DarthFatcow wrote:

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This proves they're as impressive as Grievous how?

DarthFatcow wrote:
And Grievous would have zero trouble dealing with any of the above.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Considering that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi and is capable of fighting 5 trained masters at once, with 2 of them being council members, I'm pretty sure Grievous would have plowed through everyone in the Hope cinematic.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Grevious could also pressure Mace Windu whilst being environmentally hindered. Grievous could also overload Obi Wan's defenses. Grievous could also pressure Dooku on multiple occasions. Dooku also beat Durge and Ventress simultaneously. Grievous could also shit stomp 5 Jedi Masters simultaneously. Grievous can also out muscle Darth Maul. The HoT being > the best Jedi swordsman and Sith warriors doesn't really prove anything beyond that he's better than them. You'd have to show why these Masters stack up to either Windu, Obi Wan's or Dooku's lightsaber skills. Which they don't.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Oh boy. Let's see how many blatantly false things we can get from this :

1. Filoni had an extremely low opinion on Grievous. This is blatant when he had the latter lose to Gungans. And the fact that he flat says he doesn't think Grievous can beat any force users.

2. Ah yes, let's ignore the fact that the novel flat out states he overloaded Obi Wan's defenses and that Obi Wan never killed Grievous in a duel. You should rewatch the movie again.

DarthFatcow wrote:
This is refuted by the fact that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi (https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/20/28/46/53/captur10.png).

DarthFatcow wrote:
Except Obi Wan never out dueled Grievous. Neither in the movie or Novel. He killed Grievous using a blaster.

DarthFatcow wrote:
No. It has to do with the fact that Dooku trained Grievous to overcome the advantages of not having the force.

DarthFatcow wrote:

Don’t let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, general. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side; for if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them, before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory... and have your trophy

Grievous retreats when he doesn't have any of those three on his side.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Grievous plows and steamrolls through Jedi. Do you unironically believe that droids would beat him? I mean sure they would, if Filoni was directing and writing it.

DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not an assumption, it was said by Lucas, lmfao :

From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Emphasis on as strong as the Emperor

DarthFatcow wrote:
Being equally powerful as the most powerful Sith lord and superior to the most powerful Jedi who ever existed, is somehow not better than the accolades and feats the HoT has, lmao.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Anakin was also amongst the top 3 duelists of his time. Anakin also above people who scale above the HoT. Anakin was also equal to the most powerful Sith lord in history.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yet again you choose to forget that the system was created by Nick and Lucas.

DarthFatcow wrote:
You know last I check animals didn't wield lightsabers.

DarthFatcow wrote:

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect.

Congratulations. You managed to prove that Vaylin is a more powerful force user and is stronger in the force than Obi Wan (albeit using a very funny argument).

DarthFatcow wrote:
All aspects considered, Vaylin would be a high 8. Around RoTS Dooku.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. Valkorian was the most powerful force user, ever, in his own time. Him beating RoTS Sidious is already highly debatable.

DarthFatcow wrote:
This proves she's a powerful force user, which I have never denied or argued against. Responding Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum is literal chump change to either Sidious or Grandmaster Luke Skywalker.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Don't really see why Anakin can't replicate any of those feats, lol.

DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin could hold back planetary atmospheric storms single handily.

DarthFatcow wrote:
A random Jedi or Sith in TOR times is definitely capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms and TK'ing dreadnought ships and shit stomping someone like Count Dooku, who can casually throw around multiple 215 meter long cruisers. Gotcha.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Why don't you find me a showing of Vaylin holding back a planetary atmospheric storms single handily, then I will 100% agree with you on that statement you just made.

DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not an "argument". For that matter it's not even up for debate. Anakin being mentally hindered on Mustafar is supported by the highest canonical source in Star Wars. You constantly ignoring those sources in favor of your own subjective POV on the Mustafar fight doesn't change that.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Pretty sure being the chosen trumps that.

DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin was equally as powerful as RoTS Sidious, per Lucas, the highest canon in Star Wars. Anakin was also above Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up to that point, also backed by G-Canon sources. Anakin also is capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms.

DarthFatcow wrote:
That's based on conjecture and nothing more, really.

DarthFatcow wrote:
Buddy, your points haven't proved anything beyond that they contradict the highest canonical sources in SW.

DarthFatcow wrote:
I'm willing to do an SS on this, if you're interested.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Ok what the fuck is going on in here?

Stops at 5.

And AOTC Anakin is actually stated to be a 7.

I'd get in this but Fatcow and BreakofDawn have it covered.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

They have covered nothing accept trying to pull the G-Canon card every now and then which is no longer valid consideration. Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated Darth Vader on Mustafar in a fair fight and he was more powerful than Darth Vader in Episode 4 as well.

Vaylin is far more powerful than both as I will establish soon enough.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

They have covered nothing accept trying to pull the G-Canon card every now and then which is no longer valid consideration. Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated Darth Vader on Mustafar in a fair fight and he was more powerful than Darth Vader in Episode 4 as well.

Vaylin is far more powerful than both as I will establish soon enough.

Lol What? Ok sure G-Canon doesn't apply in things post 2012 but isn't Vaylin still Legends? I mean she's not canon right?

If Fatcow doesn't retaliate I'll get in this.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:True but Anakin's ranking in ROTS by Lucas's word is very direct so going by pre Disney material I'd say Anakin being at least Sidious level is still valid.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:True but Anakin's ranking in ROTS by Lucas's word is very direct so going by pre Disney material I'd say Anakin being at least Sidious level is still valid.