Dark Side Qui-Gon vs S1 Obi-Wan Kenobi

TPM Qui-Gon in a dark side rage against Obi-Wan as he was at the start of S1 of the Clone Wars.

Legends continuity.

Kenobi without much issue.

Stop trying to push Jinn man, he gets horribly stomped by even AOTC Kenobi

Jinn dies. Jinn would probably end up performing even worse in a dark side rage because it'll deplete his stamina and Force reserves really quickly because of age, his age and stamina have already been noted to be a problem for him even though he's a serene light sider, so he'll just burn himself out even quicker when enraged. Rage might however increase how much offensive output he'd generate like it did with TPM Kenobi, but that's questionable because TPM Kenobi had natural anger problems during his padawan years, whereas Jinn in stark contrast was serene. Even if rage does bolster Jinn's offensive output, it would probably come at the expense of the security of his Force defenses just like it did for TPM Kenobi because rage has tradeoffs for lightsiders.

How does Qui-Gon have stamina issues relative to any other fighter? You mean how he was fighting a near-equal for several minutes before becoming exhausted?

Meatpants wrote:How does Qui-Gon have stamina issues relative to any other fighter?

He has stamina issues "relative to any other fighter" in that he has less stamina than Kenobi because Kenobi is 2-3 decades younger than Jinn, and dark side rage will probably exacerbate his stamina issues.

Meatpants wrote:You mean how he was fighting a near-equal for several minutes before becoming exhausted?

Assuming that you're talking about his fight with Maul, he had help from Obi-Wan for a good portion of the fight, which doesn't say anything about Jinn's unproven ability to fight Maul for "several minutes before becoming exhausted" in a 1v1. When it came to an actual 1v1 with Maul, Jinn and Maul fought for approximately 30 seconds before the lasers disrupted the fight, which gave Jinn the opportunity to recuperate himself, and then Maul and Jinn resumed their 1v1 which also lasted approximately 30 seconds before Jinn got gutted.

Dark Side Qui-Gon vs Rage-Amped TPM Kenobi would have been more appropriate imo

Obi Wan pretty comfortably.

@Latham2000

He has stamina issues "relative to any other fighter" in that he has less stamina than Kenobi because Kenobi is 2-3 decades younger than Jinn, and dark side rage will probably exacerbate his stamina issues.

He may have less stamina physically, but this explanation doesn't work when we account for aug. Qui-Gon is still > Obi-Wan by their duel with Maul.

And this is the thing, Darth Zannah already tells us that duels rarely ever last a minute, *especially* when Ataru and acrobatic maneuvers are being used. The duel on Tatooine has Qui-Gon facing someone that forces him to go 100% from the onset, is using acrobatics (per the G-canon script) and duels for 40 seconds (the greater part of a minute). Someone going all-out for 40 seconds while also draining their reserves faster with the use of acrobatics sounds... about right if Zannah can be trusted. There's nothing unique to Qui-Gon here that wouldn't apply to anyone else really. Maul is stronger in the Force and conditioned by Sidious to an extreme extent, hence why he's not collapsed on the sand after the duel as opposed to Jinn, who had to call on all his reserves (source can be provided if needed). Take for example Dooku and Yoda both being exhausted after a 30 second duel in AOTC. Going all-out in a duel to the death drains you, that's just how it goes.

Unlike Obi-Wan, who performs *worse* when using his rage, Qui-Gon is like Dooku in that the DS actually juices him up. He gets tempted a lot pre-TPM to use the DS because it gives him "speed and focus". Obi-Wan also chilled at the thought of fighting a DS Qui-Gon. Don't really think there would be a net negative to his combative ability honestly.

The dark side hindered Kenobi emotionally and mentally meaning he can’t beat Maul at his own game, but it empowered him physically all the same. He was performing much better at the end of the fight than before where he was fighting on even terms, pressuring Maul, cutting his staff, and rolling with kicks that had him floored in the beginning.

O-Siri wrote:The dark side hindered Kenobi emotionally and mentally meaning he can’t beat Maul at his own game, but it empowered him physically all the same. He was performing much better at the end of the fight than before where he was fighting on even terms, pressuring Maul, cutting his staff, and rolling with kicks that had him floored in the beginning.

Drawing on the dark side hinders his connection to the Force, this is backed up by so many examples it's not even funny. I would say that it still gave him some edge in offensive capabilities (probably related to just watching his father figure get gutted), but I still believe it overall hindered his efforts. The sources emphasise that Obi-Wan HAS to be calm and one with the Force to defeat Maul, so I go with that.

With Obi-Wan getting kicked around during the duel, I would say a part of that is due to Maul knowing his environment, being more technically skilled, having a saberstaff (allowing him to fend off two opponents more easily) and that two Jedi fighting a single opponent DOES have its drawbacks compared to a one-on-one fight. Though to be fair, being kicked around a few times doesn't indicate too much, especially since one-on-one, Maul is hard pressed beating down Qui-Gon as we saw on Tatooine.

Obi Wan is hindered in their final duel. That much is obvious. You have countless quotes that state it, you have countless more quotes that show he is hindered every time he is angry( explicitly talking about his force connection), and on top of that you also have quotes that state that "he tried to draw on the dark side but....." or that "he was tempted to draw on the dark side" making it evident that he didn't actually manage to draw on the dark side and get its power, and moreover, it is empirically impossible for him to have been amped by a simple comparison in augmentation that I am going to detail in an extensive TPM Kenobi thread( should I ever manage to make it).

But yeah, the kicked around argument is really lacking in any substance whatsoever. For one thing, Kenobi is, onscreen, fighting better than Jinn( again, this is onscreen) when it comes to an open, even ground. Jinn got kicked once, and thrown about in another instance, whereas Kenobi only got kicked once. When it comes to the bridge, Kenobi's lack of experience would be the detrimental factor as Jinn has mastered many forms and sequences but Kenobi at this point has only truly mastered Ataru. His reliance on acrobatics will be more than Jinn's there( which is evident in the movie) and consequently, he will be more vulnerable in the narrow passage and in that environment( which is confirmed to hinder the Jedi). Sure, this is to Jinn's credit as a swordsman that he can adapt better and also one of the reasons why I consider him to be better than Obi Wan overall( primarily due to his skill), but this doesn't reflect negatively on Obi Wan's connection to the force or augmentation/power. Another thing is that Jinn too performed better in their one-on-one than he did in the two-on-one, matching Maul evenly for 30-40 seconds before losing. While the optics looked worse for either of the Jedi at the beginning of the battle, when they were being kicked around multiple times, it looks better for them in their solo battles. That is how it has always been. Have we lost track of the countless times Ventress has managed to land hits or stray force pushes on Kenobi and Anakin even as a team, while both have managed to look better in their solo battles? Are we forgetting how Dooku floors Anakin twice in the two-on-one battle, yet can't do anything with him one-on-one? Or Sing who managed to kick both Jinn and Kenobi simultaneously? Two-on-one battles have a lot of instances where the team members take stray hits yet, in many of those cases, seem to do better one-on-one than they were doing when contributing to the battle in a team. Just seems to be a theme.

Did his anger help in any way? Sure, it increased his aggression, and with Ataru being a heavily aggressive style with minimal defensive attributes, his combat style would have been more optimised to take Maul on, which likely bridged the skill gap. That doesn't mean that his augmentation or force connection wasn't hindered.

Agreed. Two on one isn’t necessarily better, and there’s a couple quotes that state this too.

Bro wasn’t there that quote that said enraged TPM Kenobi was a far greater challenge than Qui-Gon 🧐

Not surprising since Jinn is completely shite

That quote directly refers to Jinn losing after saying that TPM Kenobi was a greater challenge

Meatpants wrote:The source emphasise that Obi-Wan HAS to be calm and one with the Force to defeat Maul, so I go with that.

Agreed. He beat him when he centered himself. Kenobi was at his peak in that moment and no where else in the fight.

With Obi-Wan getting kicked around during the duel, I would say a part of that is due to Maul knowing his environment,

Not really the terrain was flat and open. He kicked him with superior timing that’s all.

My point was less to do with being tagged and more to do with his defensive response. When he was first kicked in the jaw he was floored, when he was kicked in the same place he moved with it, despite being supposedly hindered overall he shows greater defensive ability. Fact remains his performance was marketly superior in the end than in the beginning.

 LOTL wrote:That quote directly refers to Jinn losing after saying that TPM Kenobi was a greater challenge

Proof?