Luke Skywalker vs Revan

Master Azronger wrote:Your quote's contradicted by actual on-screen events. Plain and simple.

Fair point. Starred. Atm i think it's safe to assume that the quote's probably referring to Palpatine's remaining powers. Tho it's doesn't mean that Luke's feat's impressive.  

Btw, is there a way to estimate Emperor's mind-control energy input?

Master Azronger wrote:@The Rich Man Luke's performance is not impressive, at all. Luke, for like two seconds, managed to deflect lightning that was weaker than that which couldn't kill a defenseless, weakened human (basically the equivalent of a non-Force-user at that point). All the lightning did was begin to calcify Luke's bones, and Luke was almost instantly overcome by something even lesser than that.

How do you know he did it for two seconds? And Revan Reborn got rekt by Vitiate immediantly. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance should be better than anything Revan Reborn did.

The Rich Man wrote:

Master Azronger wrote:@The Rich Man Luke's performance is not impressive, at all. Luke, for like two seconds, managed to deflect lightning that was weaker than that which couldn't kill a defenseless, weakened human (basically the equivalent of a non-Force-user at that point). All the lightning did was begin to calcify Luke's bones, and Luke was almost instantly overcome by something even lesser than that.

How do you know he did it for two seconds? And Revan Reborn got rekt by Vitiate immediantly. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance should be better than anything Revan Reborn did.

Luke got overwhelmed in one paragraph, the same as Revan. The text even says "Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb." The comic adds that Luke was successful for only "a moment."



And no, it's not a good feat for the reasons I outlined: the lightning at maximum only calcified Luke's bones and didn't seem to cause major burns, and Luke almost instantly succumbed to even lesser intensity. Vitiate's lightning by contrast, started to melt Revan's mask and gave him third degree burns. That by itself disproves this comparison, not to mention the lightning being described as "infinitely more powerful" than that of Darth Nyriss, which could turn Scourge and the Jedi Exile to ash upon contact. It doesn't matter that Palpatine is more powerful than Vitiate when he only poured a fraction of his power into the attack.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Revan wins this, easily.

@AlexSerp If you mean the strain it had on his reserves, I don't know how to quantify that. It does appear to be a casual feat for him, though.

To add to what Az is saying. Luke was ”powerless to resist the onslaught” and was ”so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.”

Master Azronger wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Master Azronger wrote:@The Rich Man Luke's performance is not impressive, at all. Luke, for like two seconds, managed to deflect lightning that was weaker than that which couldn't kill a defenseless, weakened human (basically the equivalent of a non-Force-user at that point). All the lightning did was begin to calcify Luke's bones, and Luke was almost instantly overcome by something even lesser than that.

How do you know he did it for two seconds? And Revan Reborn got rekt by Vitiate immediantly. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance should be better than anything Revan Reborn did.

Luke got overwhelmed in one paragraph, the same as Revan. The text even says "Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb." The comic adds that Luke was successful for only "a moment."



And no, it's not a good feat for the reasons I outlined: the lightning at maximum only calcified Luke's bones and didn't seem to cause major burns, and Luke almost instantly succumbed to even lesser intensity. Vitiate's lightning by contrast, started to melt Revan's mask and gave him third degree burns. That by itself disproves this comparison, not to mention the lightning being described as "infinitely more powerful" than that of Darth Nyriss, which could turn Scourge and the Jedi Exile to ash upon contact. It doesn't matter that Palpatine is more powerful than Vitiate when he only poured a fraction of his power into the attack.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Revan wins this, easily.

Okay, I concede. Good debate.

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:Revan one shots

Like he did against Vitiate?

Is RotJ Luke Vitiate level now?

No. My point is this; "Luke managed to block Palpatine's lightning for a time. Remember what Vitiate did against Revan. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance seems to be better than anything Revan did."

Revan's performance against Vitiate absolutely trashes on Luke's against Palp. Revan was winning against Vitiate for most of the fight and was blocking Vitiate's lightning and deflecting some of it back to him. He only lost when he dropped his lightsaber allowing Vitiate to overwhelm his tutaminis.

Revan was winning? Lol, no. Vitiate immediately overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis. At least, Luke managed to block Palpatine's force lightning for a time. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance seems to be better than anything Revan did.

Well then let's analyse the fight.
"the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed."
Vitiate's first attack does nothing to Revan. Let's continue.
"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the force, letting both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing of channeling the force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering.  The Emperor , unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind was sent flying backward."
Revan managed to land a hit on Vitiate here though he was caught of guard since he was trying to dominate his mind. I'll give Vitiate the benefit of the doubt here and ignore this one in his favour. Let's continue.
"The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy. Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks. The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source."
"A dozen purple bolts arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them , but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been."
I'm confused what you mean by 'at least Luke managed to block Palpatine's lightning for some time,' since you're applying Revan hasn't done that against Vitiate. Revan was handling his lightning pretty well until he (for some reason) dropped his lightsaber and tried using tutaminis despite his saber working just find. In the end the feats don't compare. Revan fought evenly against Vitiate, all Luke did was not get destroyed right off the bat.

Didn't see the earlier discussion on the "The Emperor called upon all of his Dark powers" quotes, but in order for these quotes to be contradicted by the environmental damage displayed on screen, you have to treat the premise that environmental damage scales consistently as axiomatic. Which I don't think is necessarily the case.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:

The Rich Man wrote:

Sith Archivist wrote:Revan one shots

Like he did against Vitiate?

Is RotJ Luke Vitiate level now?

No. My point is this; "Luke managed to block Palpatine's lightning for a time. Remember what Vitiate did against Revan. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance seems to be better than anything Revan did."

Revan's performance against Vitiate absolutely trashes on Luke's against Palp. Revan was winning against Vitiate for most of the fight and was blocking Vitiate's lightning and deflecting some of it back to him. He only lost when he dropped his lightsaber allowing Vitiate to overwhelm his tutaminis.

Revan was winning? Lol, no. Vitiate immediately overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis. At least, Luke managed to block Palpatine's force lightning for a time. If we think this version of Palpatine is solidly above Vitiate, Luke's performance seems to be better than anything Revan did.

Revan wasn't winning against Vitiate for 'most of the fight'. He simply landed 2 hits on Vitiate when Vitiate was clearly stated to be distracted in attempting to overwhelm Revan's mind (which Revan prepared against beforehand). Once Vitiate got serious and into a fighting mindset, he fried Revan like a potato. It wasn't a stomp by Vitiate, but there was a solid victor in this fight.

He was winning most of the fight, the only time when Vitiate injured Revan was at the end. 
Vitiate was only trying to overwhelm Revan's mind once. He gave up once Revan unleashed the force in its purest form at him.
He didn't fry Revan because he got into a fighting mindset, he fried Revan because he was enraged which amped him.
Yes Vitiate did ultimately win but that doesn't go against my point that he wasn't for most of the fight.

Master Azronger wrote:That by itself disproves this comparison, not to mention the lightning being described as "infinitely more powerful" than that of Darth Nyriss, which could turn Scourge and the Jedi Exile to ash upon contact. It doesn't matter that Palpatine is more powerful than Vitiate when he only poured a fraction of his power into the attack.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Revan wins this, easily.

Problem with this argument -there's actually more like three- is that the idea of the lightning ashing Meetra and Scourge comes from Scourge's POV. Scourge has been almost entirely fodder the entire fight, so of course he thinks he'll be ashed. Meetra at that time is literally defenseless on the floor being electrocuted by the remainder of the lightning that she didn't absorb earlier on.

The point being that with what was essentially an instinctive reactionary barrier she was able to absorb 'the worst of' Nyriss' lightning from earlier on.

Nyriss possibly ashing a defenseless Meetra is not comparable to Nyriss having her entire attack absorbed by Revan who is not only not hindered by the mix of a nexus and having his psyché almost entirely ripped apart by a planetary void, as Meetra was. But he also enjoyed having the time to prepare a proper Tutaminis defense whilst Nyriss' storm gathered, something Meetra absolutely couldn't do.

Then there's all the problems with the implications that the aforementioned belief creates. That being that Meetra's one-shottable fodder to Revan and then the Emperor when it's demonstratably not true.

The comparison simply doesn't work on many levels.

KingofBlades wrote:Didn't see the earlier discussion on the "The Emperor called upon all of his Dark powers" quotes, but in order for these quotes to be contradicted by the environmental damage displayed on screen, you have to treat the premise that environmental damage scales consistently as axiomatic. Which I don't think is necessarily the case.

Elaborate.

Elaborate

Well what I mean is that you seem to be starting with the premise that environmental damage can be reliably scaled upon. Then you're using using this premise to say the quotes are contradicted by the environmental damage of RotJ Sidious' lightning being inferior to the environmental damage of the lightning from a weaker, earlier, iteration of Sidious. But why are you starting with this premise? I think we should start without any presupposition on the reliability of environmental damage as a scaling mechanism and let the lore shape our understanding of how this works. If we do that then environmental damage is evidently not a reliable tool for scaling, as a more powerful Sidious, who is stated in multiple sources to use "all his dark powers" demonstrates inferior levels of environmental damage with his lightning than weaker iterations of himself, or other individuals far weaker than himself like Darth Bane or Revan Reborn.

@KingofBlades Because I'm approaching the lore from a standpoint of suspension of disbelief. I am therefore assuming that the Star Wars universe operates under internally consistent and definable rules and laws, and am discarding authorial intent, medium differences, and in general most out-of-universe reasoning. This is to facilitate the hobby itself - if we took into account how anything that falls outside of the scope of the movies is distorted or exaggerated, then we'd lose a ginormous amount of source material since cross-medium and cross-era comparisons would be rendered virtually impossible. It would ruin the hobby.

But on the topic of the quotes, the inconsistency in power output was not my only argument: I definitively proved that Palpatine was diverting a portion of his power into maintaining his psychic hold over the Galactic Empire's naval complex and power structure. It is therefore logically impossible for the Emperor to have used all his powers on Luke. We don't have to attempt to redefine our conception of environmental feats as the quotes that muddle the waters can simply be tossed out on account of being overruled by higher sources.

Another one coming from Lucas himself, stating that the Emperor could have wasted Luke with a wave of his hand. If he could do that, I wonder why "all his dark side powers" didn't work? It's because the quotes are void, simple as that.

Because I'm approaching the lore from a standpoint of suspension of disbelief. I am therefore assuming that the Star Wars universe operates under internally consistent and definable rules and laws, and am discarding authorial intent, medium differences, and in general most out-of-universe reasoning. This is to facilitate the hobby itself - if we took into account how anything that falls outside of the scope of the movies is distorted or exaggerated, then we'd lose a ginormous amount of source material since cross-medium and cross-era comparisons would be rendered virtually impossible. It would ruin the hobby.

Well I don't think we're at liberty to make such an assumption. There are fictional universes, namely Dragonball, where environmental damage is completely useless for making comparisons. What prevents this from also being the case with the SW universe? While I somewhat agree with the idea of ignoring authorial intent or OOU reasoning on the basis of authors or other authorities using methodologies completely divorced from our own, I don't think ignoring them is necessary to facilitate vs debating, nor do I think factoring in medium differences ruins the hobby. If, in a vacuum, character A performs a less impressive feat, X, in a different medium compared to a feat, Y, done by character B, but we know character A>character B,  then I would just say feat X is actually >feat Y if you adjusted for medium differences. Though this does make cross medium feat comparisons virtually worthless if we lack quote connectors, but its a perfectly viable way to go about doing this hobby. Perhaps a middle ground would be to adjust for medium differences whenever possible, but if that can't be done then we compare feats in a vacuum

But on the topic of the quotes, the inconsistency in power output was not my only argument: I definitively proved that Palpatine was diverting a portion of his power into maintaining his psychic hold over the Galactic Empire's naval complex and power structure. It is therefore logically impossible for the Emperor to have used all his powers on Luke. We don't have to attempt to redefine our conception of environmental feats as the quotes that muddle the waters can simply be tossed out on account of being overruled by higher sources.

If Sidious was using a portion of his power to do something other than attack Luke, then fair. I suppose an explanation that doesn't result in us just throwing out the quotes entirely would be what you said earlier, that Sidious was using all of his remaining reserves to attack Luke. Though I do think other examples in lore support the idea that environmental feats aren't effective scaling tools, that isn't really relevant to this thread.

KingofBlades wrote:Well I don't think we're at liberty to make such an assumption. There are fictional universes, namely Dragonball, where environmental damage is completely useless for making comparisons. What prevents this from also being the case with the SW universe?

Anyone is at a liberty to have whatever methodology they choose - even the Holocron tier system is simply used out of convenience by myself, not because it's a binding law. Nowhere have I said that anything is "preventing" environmental scaling from being unreliable - if you choose to believe that, it's your prerogative, just as it's mine to consider it valid. Star Wars is subjective that way.

Dragon Ball is a false analogy because not every fictional franchise has to be debated under the same methodology. It's also a poor analogy because even in Dragon Ball, there is an in-universe explanation for environmental damage seemingly not scaling properly: the fighters are simply concentrating their ki towards their opponent, not their environment. When Goku had just reached Super Saiyan God, he was unable to control that power at first and the energy leaking from his punches caused shockwaves that threatened to tear the universe apart. Once he acclimated to the power, however, the shockwaves ceased because he was able to direct his ki properly towards Beerus. But that's getting off-topic.

While I somewhat agree with the idea of ignoring authorial intent or OOU reasoning on the basis of authors or other authorities using methodologies completely divorced from our own, I don't think ignoring them is necessary to facilitate vs debating, nor do I think factoring in medium differences ruins the hobby. If, in a vacuum, character A performs a less impressive feat, X, in a different medium compared to a feat, Y, done by character B, but we know character A>character B,  then I would just say feat X is actually > Y if you adjusted for medium differences. Though this does make cross medium feat comparisons virtually worthless if we lack quote connectors, but its a perfectly viable way to go about doing this hobby. Perhaps a middle ground would be to adjust for medium differences whenever possible, but if that can't be done then we compare feats in a vacuum.

The primary axiom of Star Wars debating is to have fun - one's methodology should therefore revolve around that principle. For me, the most fun in this hobby is to consider it all a single, coherent universe, and to figure out the rules it operates under to serve the purpose of determining who would win between X vs. Y. That is not all that dissimilar from actual science: the available data is analyzed to form a model/theory that is used to explain certain phenomena. If a piece of information doesn't fit into the existing framework, it has to be amended or reconstructed completely. The Azrongerian model of 2016 with its ludicrous gaps and ragdolling could be thought of as Newtonian physics - revolutionary for it's time, but is currently being replaced by a model that emphasizes more mastery and other factors than power due to its superior understanding of the mechanics behind Force combat, which could be analogous to Einstein's theory of relativity.

Treating Star Wars debating as an actual science gives the most reliable results, because it eliminates subjectivity as much as possible. In all my years, I have never encountered a more reliable methodology than that. You're entitled to yours, of course, but I can easily see how it would get messy very quickly, and I'm not convinced it answers the question of X vs. Y more reliably than mine.

If Sidious was using a portion of his power to do something other than attack Luke, then fair. I suppose an explanation that doesn't result in us just throwing out the quotes entirely would be what you said earlier, that Sidious was using all of his remaining reserves to attack Luke. Though I do think other examples in lore support the idea that environmental feats aren't effective scaling tools, that isn't really relevant to this thread.

It is relevant since my initial counter to the quotes claiming Sidious used his full power is predicated on them contradicting on-screen events, and you challenged that stance as a defense for those quotes.

However, I accept your concession on the quotes being invalid regardless due to the Emperor diverting a portion of his attention and reserves into telepathically managing the Empire.

Anyone is at a liberty to have whatever methodology they choose - even the Holocron tier system is simply used out of convenience by myself, not because it's a binding law. Nowhere have I said that anything is "preventing" environmental scaling from being unreliable - if you choose to believe that, it's your prerogative, just as it's mine to consider it valid. Star Wars is subjective that way.

Of course anyone can operate under any methodology they wish, my comment about assumptions we can make would only really apply if one is attempting to use or find a methodology that is most in line with the lore of the universe. 

Dragon Ball is a false analogy because not every fictional franchise has to be debated under the same methodology.

I never said every fictional universe has to be debated under the same methodology, my question was what prevents the SW universe from operating under a methodology where environmental feats are useless for scaling purposes, using Dragonball as an example of a fictional universe where environmental feats can't be scaled upon. I agree that fictional universes don't have to be debated using the same methodologies, and my question isn't predicated on the contrary. I'll concede on the Dragonball stuff, but the analogy doesn't need to hold in order for my question to stand.

The primary axiom of Star Wars debating is to have fun - one's methodology should therefore revolve around that principle. For me, the most fun in this hobby is to consider it all a single, coherent universe, and to figure out the rules it operates under to serve the purpose of determining who would win between X vs. Y. That is not all that dissimilar from actual science: the available data is analyzed to form a model/theory that is used to explain certain phenomena. If a piece of information doesn't fit into the existing framework, it has to be amended or reconstructed completely. The Azrongerian model of 2016 with its ludicrous gaps and ragdolling could be thought of as Newtonian physics - revolutionary for it's time, but is currently being replaced by a model that emphasizes more mastery and other factors than power due to its superior understanding of the mechanics behind Force combat, which could be analogous to Einstein's theory of relativity.

Treating Star Wars debating as an actual science gives the most reliable results, because it eliminates subjectivity as much as possible. In all my years, I have never encountered a more reliable methodology than that. You're entitled to yours, of course, but I can easily see how it would get messy very quickly, and I'm not convinced it answers the question of X vs. Y more reliably than mine.

You say that this hobby's fundamental axiom is to have fun and to base one's methodology upon said axiom. This is a perfectly fine stance to hold, and one that I don't necessarily disagree with. Where you lose is me when you talk about how "fun" for you is basing your methodology around the arbitrary assumption that SW is a "single, coherent universe" , but then go on about treating SW debating as a science. Maybe I missed something in my science courses in school, but what part of the scientific method says we should start with a baseless assumption and interpret all observations under the framework defined by said assumption? It's as if someone arbitrarily assumed the Earth's gravitational constant was 5 m/s^2 and tried calculating the escape velocity of a rocket they were building. It's possible that the baseless assumption is correct of course, but there's a very strong chance that this assumption is wrong which is going to result in inaccurate calculations. There's nothing stopping you from doing this of course, but understand that this is going to more often than not lead to inaccurate conclusions. If you were truly approaching sw debating like a scientist, you would assume nothing, and let the lore shape your understanding of the SW universe unfiltered. In fact, my methodology more closely resembles that of a science, as it tries to make hypotheses and form conclusions solely from information on the SW universe

It is relevant since my initial counter to the quotes claiming Sidious used his full power is predicated on them contradicting on-screen events, and you challenged that stance as a defense for those quotes.

Yes, but then I factored in your quotes saying Sidious devoted power elsewhere. If we assume that the quotes aren't outright contradicted by your quotes and Sidious was using all of his remaining power, then the scene in the movie isn't necessarily evidence for my stance regarding the scalability of environmental feats. This is because its possible that Sidious was simply devoting so much energy to TPing the empire, that the full extent of his applicable power at that moment in time was simply inferior to the likes of Darth Bane or Revan Reborn. Unless you are of the opinion that the full extent of Sheev's applicable power at that moment in time was greater than the aforementioned individuals or the earlier iteration of Sheev you cited earlier, it is not in fact relevant.

However, I accept your concession on the quotes being invalid regardless due to the Emperor diverting a portion of his attention and reserves into telepathically managing the Empire

To be clear, I never conceded the quotes were completely invalid, I try to rationalize and incorporate all sources whenever possible. I just agreed that Sidious cannot be devoting absolutely 100% of his force reserves at Luke due to your quotes.

Though, on the matter of Sidious devoting energy to TPing the galaxy, I'm not sure how much that matters. I think its plausible that it might be just ambient energy passively emanating from him that his empire is feeding off of. After all, if his hold over his armies and the empire only breaks upon his death, then it seems Sidious was unable to draw on this other energy reserve to increase his combative power to stop Vader from tossing him. This inability to draw on the power used to sustain his empire indicates it is not apart of the power that is available to him combatively. And since the quotes I provided are of a combative context, then perhaps a more refined theory of the one you proposed would be that Sidious devoted all of the power that is available to him combatively. This might not seem like much of a distinction from what you proposed earlier, but I think the idea you came up with implies Sidious could have incinerated Luke had he not been devoting energy to sustaining his empire, or rather that the energy he was devoting elsewhere was energy that was available to him, had he chosen to draw on it.

KingofBlades wrote:Of course anyone can operate under any methodology they wish, my comment about assumptions we can make would only really apply if one is attempting to use or find a methodology that is most in line with the lore of the universe.

Don't know what you mean by "most in line with the lore of the universe."

KingofBlades wrote:I never said every fictional universe has to be debated under the same methodology, my question was what prevents the SW universe from operating under a methodology where environmental feats are useless for scaling purposes, using Dragonball as an example of a fictional universe where environmental feats can't be scaled upon. I agree that fictional universes don't have to be debated using the same methodologies, and my question isn't predicated on the contrary. I'll concede on the Dragonball stuff, but the analogy doesn't need to hold in order for my question to stand.

Again, I never said that anything strictly prevents environmental feats from Star Wars from being useless - you're free to believe that if you wish. If you acknowledge that not all fictional universes need to follow the same methodology, then I don't see what your point even was.

KingofBlades wrote:You say that this hobby's fundamental axiom is to have fun and to base one's methodology upon said axiom. This is a perfectly fine stance to hold, and one that I don't necessarily disagree with. Where you lose is me when you talk about how "fun" for you is basing your methodology around the arbitrary assumption that SW is a "single, coherent universe", but then go on about treating SW debating as a science. Maybe I missed something in my science courses in school, but what part of the scientific method says we should start with a baseless assumption and interpret all observations under the framework defined by said assumption? It's as if someone arbitrarily assumed the Earth's gravitational constant was 5 m/s^2 and tried calculating the escape velocity of a rocket they were building. It's possible that the baseless assumption is correct of course, but there's a very strong chance that this assumption is wrong which is going to result in inaccurate calculations. There's nothing stopping you from doing this of course, but understand that this is going to more often than not lead to inaccurate conclusions. If you were truly approaching sw debating like a scientist, you would assume nothing, and let the lore shape your understanding of the SW universe unfiltered. In fact, my methodology more closely resembles that of a science, as it tries to make hypotheses and form conclusions solely from information on the SW universe

Um, no, your example is a strawman because it has someone arbitrarily assuming something within the framework, whereas I am simply assuming the existence of the framework itself. Every single real world scientist does that, too: the default assumption is that the universe is a singular, coherent whole and that, once sufficiently tested, the laws of nature apply invariably in every case, everywhere. Your approach that factors in medium differences essentially divides the Star Wars universe into separate pocket dimensions, each with its own rules, power levels, etc., with nothing carrying over to the next, but all of them somehow still sharing the same timeline and no one commenting on these inexplicable changes in how everything works (Palpatine goes from casually ashing Sithspawn to being unable to essentially kill non-Force-users, yet somehow is supposed to have gotten more powerful per sourcebooks and even his own word). It mixes out-of-universe reasoning with in-universe reasoning in a way that fucks with everything so thoroughly that the end result is an abominable mess that anyone would struggle to make sense of. Trying to apply your system to versus debating to accurately gauge who'd win between X and Y is just a big no for me. I mean, we can try it out, but I seriously doubt it'll get us anywhere.

The fundamental difference here is that I am approaching debating like a science from an in-universe perspective, as in I pretend as it if were real and suspend my disbelief. You, on the hand, seem to squarely treat it as fiction, which presents myriad issues in a hobby that the fiction itself wasn't built for.

KingofBlades wrote:Yes, but then I factored in your quotes saying Sidious devoted power elsewhere. If we assume that the quotes aren't outright contradicted by your quotes and Sidious was using all of his remaining power, then the scene in the movie isn't necessarily evidence for my stance regarding the scalability of environmental feats. This is because its possible that Sidious was simply devoting so much energy to TPing the empire, that the full extent of his applicable power at that moment in time was simply inferior to the likes of Darth Bane or Revan Reborn. Unless you are of the opinion that the full extent of Sheev's applicable power at that moment in time was greater than the aforementioned individuals or the earlier iteration of Sheev you cited earlier, it is not in fact relevant.

And yet you try to explain away the Emperor's telepathic hold over his subjects as just "ambient energy passively emanating from him," so clearly this topic is still relevant. Until you unequivocally surrender on this point, I'll continue reinforcing all my barricades.

Anyway, my stance on this is matter is clear and applicable in the cases of Darth Bane and Revan as well:

Master Azronger wrote:And no, it's not a good feat for the reasons I outlined: the lightning at maximum only calcified Luke's bones and didn't seem to cause major burns, and Luke almost instantly succumbed to even lesser intensity. Vitiate's lightning by contrast, started to melt Revan's mask and gave him third degree burns. That by itself disproves this comparison, not to mention the lightning being described as "infinitely more powerful" than that of Darth Nyriss, which could turn Scourge and the Jedi Exile to ash upon contact. It doesn't matter that Palpatine is more powerful than Vitiate when he only poured a fraction of his power into the attack.

KingofBlades wrote:To be clear, I never conceded the quotes were completely invalid, I try to rationalize and incorporate all sources whenever possible. I just agreed that Sidious cannot be devoting absolutely 100% of his force reserves at Luke due to your quotes.

But you did concede that they can't be taken at face value and have to be recontextualized - at least until your bizarre ambient energy theory.

KingofBlades wrote:Though, on the matter of Sidious devoting energy to TPing the galaxy, I'm not sure how much that matters. I think its plausible that it might be just ambient energy passively emanating from him that his empire is feeding off of.

As far as I know, the Galactic Empire is not a conscious, singular entity that can feed off of someone else's dark side energy without that person's active participation. That's what you'd have to prove for your theory to make even a modicum of sense. Second, you'd have to prove that the Empire would leech on Palpatine's dark side energy so that it could telepathically dominate itself to become subservient to Palpatine's will... which would be an even harder sell. And third, that Palpatine would not be actively controlling the Empire but that the Empire would just read his thoughts to know his will and then execute it.

For someone who chastises me for making certain assumptions, all of that's pretty...



-- -- --

Anyways, all jokes aside:

Star Wars: Heir to the Empire wrote:C’baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?”"
​
"Not at all, Master C’baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor’s fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces—and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations.”

All you had to do was take a look at the first page. The evidence I already posted attributes the phenomenon to the Emperor's personal agency, volition, and - key word - "mastery of the dark side." Which is hardly surprising since that's how, you know, all telepathy works. You wouldn't want people to start assuming that all of Valkorion's feats are the byproduct of "ambient" or "passive" energy and not reflective of his combative ability, now would you?

KingofBlades wrote:After all, if his hold over his armies and the empire only breaks upon his death, then it seems Sidious was unable to draw on this other energy reserve to increase his combative power to stop Vader from tossing him. This inability to draw on the power used to sustain his empire indicates it is not apart of the power that is available to him combatively. And since the quotes I provided are of a combative context, then perhaps a more refined theory of the one you proposed would be that Sidious devoted all of the power that is available to him combatively. This might not seem like much of a distinction from what you proposed earlier, but I think the idea you came up with implies Sidious could have incinerated Luke had he not been devoting energy to sustaining his empire, or rather that the energy he was devoting elsewhere was energy that was available to him, had he chosen to draw on it.

There are other explanations for the Emperor not breaking free of Vader's grip than him being somehow unable to draw on the energies used to control the Empire, and that then meaning the power isn't his. Canon uses the explanation that he was simply so consumed with anger that he lost control of his powers and sanity, which is why he continues to shoot lightning at nothing as he's falling, so if you want to use it for Legends, too, you can, although there are several issues with it. Legends itself states Palpatine himself simply didn't give a shit at that point and was open to the prospect of dying because he knew he would live again through essence transfer. He also had developed a growing hatred for the Empire that climaxed during Thrawn's campaign a few years later, so it's possible that he simply used the opportunity to weed out the incompetent and disloyal as described in the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Regardless, he's clearly not using all his "combative" power either because he's demonstrated the ability to fly before, yet doesn't float out of the chasm even though he should easily be able to do so - and that's a more critical moment for his survival than when Vader picked him up.





















The point here being that while justifying the scene from a mechanical standpoint requires some mental gymnastics, any one of those explanations is more plausible and has more backing than the idea that the Emperor's telepathic subjugation of his military and government was the result of "ambient" energy lol.

Revan