Unarmed combat: Sidious vs Yoda

Sidious and Yoda duke it out in a wrestling match, no lightsabers or offensive Force powers (e.g. telekinesis or lightning) allowed, victory is dictated purely through unarmed combat, who wins?

Yoda is too old, Sidious wins.

Sidious.

Unsure, no idea why people are automatically assuming Sidious wins without any reasonable evidence to suggest such.

Sidious is a master of "numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts" and his proficiency is likely above those of the teachers and attendants of the Orsis Academy (one of the finest assassin schools in the galaxy) given that he taught them to Maul after his tenure in the Academy. I'm unsure of Yoda's skill level in hand-to-hand, though, so I won't make a definitive call here.

BigMouthPrick wrote:

Which is?

HellfireUnit wrote:

BigMouthPrick wrote:

Which is?

Very basic physics. Because Palpatine has considerably more mass than Yoda, he has a major advantage in physical combat. It's the same reason there are different weight classes in boxing and wrestling.

Sidious

NotAA3 wrote:Unsure, no idea why people are automatically assuming Sidious wins without any reasonable evidence to suggest such.

Obtaining mastery in the Force requires physical as well as mental discipline.

Count Dooku makes an observation in Labyrinth of Evil:

More than once it had occurred to Dooku that Sidious and Yoda had certain qualities in common. Principally, that neither was entirely what he appeared to be - that is, made frail by age, or by the intensity required to master the Sith or Jedi arts.

The Emperor does have martial arts training (all Rule of Two Sith do) and Yoda is a muppet.

Palpatine has the physical advantages of weight, strength, height, and speed.




 

Thrawn wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Unsure, no idea why people are automatically assuming Sidious wins without any reasonable evidence to suggest such.

Obtaining mastery in the Force requires physical as well as mental discipline.

Count Dooku makes an observation in Labyrinth of Evil:

More than once it had occurred to Dooku that Sidious and Yoda had certain qualities in common. Principally, that neither was entirely what he appeared to be - that is, made frail by age, or by the intensity required to master the Sith or Jedi arts.

The Emperor does have martial arts training (all Rule of Two Sith do) and Yoda is a muppet.

Palpatine has the physical advantages of weight, strength, height, and speed.

He has the physical advantages of weight, and height sure, but I'm disagreed about speed and strength. What makes you immediately assume that Sidious is stronger when Yoda overpowers him in blade locks in ROTS? And what makes you immediately assume Sidious is faster when Yoda overwhelms him with his speed in ROTS during the saber portion of their fight? And lastly, why is Sidious martially superior when the extent of Yoda's H2H fighting abilities are unknown? All of these questions you need to answer in order to prove Sidious wins.

For whatever it’s worth, your base Jedi Padawan/Knight has enough martial arts skill to hold up against superhuman combat champions without using The Force.

@NotAA3

This is not a fist fight or a brawl. It's a wrestling match.

A wrestling match is not a lightsaber contest.  A lightsaber match can end with a single stroke making throwing all your physicality into a blade lock more meaningful.

In addition, Yoda is about 2-3 feet tall with a small lightsaber that can kill you with a single strike. Fighting Yoda would be a nightmare.

None of that translates to a wrestling match which is what the O.P. specified. One shot kills aren't applicable.

And lastly, why is Sidious martially superior when the extent of Yoda's H2H fighting abilities are unknown

Yoda has tiny arms, and Palpatine has reach.

In a hand to hand situation leverage, height, and weight advantage is the deciding factor.

The Sith prioritize martial abilities. Do you really think Yoda spent a lot of time outside of saber combat when his body proportions clearly don't favor H2H?

I don't need it specified to me that Palpatine would realistically have more H2H training than Yoda, particularly when Yoda was primarily active during a time of peace.

And what makes you immediately assume Sidious is faster when Yoda overwhelms him with his speed in ROTS during the saber portion of their fight

Palpatine limiting his speed when dealing with a tiny muppet with a lightsaber that kill you in one hit is not the same as a wrestling match.

To win a wrestling match you either choke your opponent our or pin their shoulders to the mat (WWE style lol).

Palpatine has reach, height, strength, and weight advantages against a Yoda who is muppet sized proportions.

All of these questions you need to answer in order to prove Sidious wins.

Unsure, no idea why people are automatically assuming Sidious wins without any reasonable evidence to suggest such.

Somethings are fairly self evident upon first glance.

In this case, physicals play an even bigger part in a wrestling match than a lightsaber duel.

One of the main points of the OT was that Yoda was physically inferior to Luke, but his power was not tied to his physicality.

That's actually a key aspect of Yoda's character.

Yoda can flip around without a lightsaber, but you need more than that to win a wrestling match.

Oh completely missed the wrestling bit.

Zenwolf wrote:For whatever it’s worth, your base Jedi Padawan/Knight has enough martial arts skill to hold up against superhuman combat champions without using The Force.

Not always—famed Teras Kasi master Joclad Danva got his ass handed to him by non-Force Sensitive Phow Ji when he refused to use the Force.

CuckedCurry wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:For whatever it’s worth, your base Jedi Padawan/Knight has enough martial arts skill to hold up against superhuman combat champions without using The Force.

Not always—famed Teras Kasi master Joclad Danva got his ass handed to him by non-Force Sensitive Phow Ji when he refused to use the Force.

That's what I was talking about and  Phow Ji is blatantly superhuman, that's who I was talking about. Plus I didn't say defeat, just hold up against them.

But I retract that statement as this is a wrestling match, so it doesn't matter.

I kind of want to see Palpatine put Yoda in a Figure Four Leg Lock shaking his head like a deranged Ric Flair.  

I AM DRUNK

HellfireUnit wrote:I AM DRUNK

Astagfirullah.

@Thrawn I hate saying this - because it's a meme - but I'll probably respond tomorrow.

NotAA3 wrote:@Thrawn I hate saying this - because it's a meme - but I'll probably respond tomorrow.  

That's fine. I have to work the next three nights. I work every weekend. So my posting is limited.

I mean going by their bladelocks in ROTS Yoda's possibly physically stronger and he does have a brief hand to hand showing in TCW when he fights his darkside counterpart. 

Yoda's at least equal if not possibly greater physical strength along with his superior mobility might give him the win. I don't think Sidious's mass advantage would matter.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:I mean going by their bladelocks in ROTS Yoda's possibly physically stronger and he does have a brief hand to hand showing in TCW when he fights his darkside counterpart. 

Yoda's at least equal if not possibly greater physical strength along with his superior mobility might give him the win. I don't think Sidious's mass advantage would matter.

To be fair, that could be chalked down to Yoda forcing himself to apply more leverage on using the Force to augment himself than Sidious did in their blade lock.

That's true but Sidious at one point was audibly struggling during one of them while Yoda was death staring him so for awhile now I've taken that as Yoda possibly being slightly stronger. 

Even then I think a H2H fight between these to would come down to Yoda's mobility letting him avoid Sidious and land hits on him.

@Thrawn

This is not a fist fight or a brawl. It's a wrestling match.

A wrestling match is not a lightsaber contest. A lightsaber match can end with a single stroke making throwing all your physicality into a blade lock more meaningful.

In addition, Yoda is about 2-3 feet tall with a small lightsaber that can kill you with a single strike. Fighting Yoda would be a nightmare.

None of that translates to a wrestling match which is what the O.P. specified. One shot kills aren't applicable.

I never said the specific mechanics of Lightsaber combat translate into wrestling, so this explanation is totally pointless. The idea behind my questions wasn't to prove Yoda is superior physically, but rather make you question whether Sidious is (your initial claim). The specific speed and strength feats Yoda has - while not as influential in a wresting match - are still relevant when determining who has the physical advantage, and I consider it unreasonable to automatically assume Sidious is stronger and faster when the evidence we do have suggests the contrary; even if there are explanations like this: "A lightsaber match can end with a single stroke making throwing all your physicality into a blade lock more meaningful."

Yoda has tiny arms, and Palpatine has reach.

In a hand to hand situation leverage, height, and weight advantage is the deciding factor.

I'm not familiar with the specific mechanics of wresting, but I'm sure if I Googled I could find multiple examples of a considerably smaller wrestler overcoming a bigger one through technical skill. Hence why - even with these advantages - I'm not assuming Palpatine wins; especially not when Yoda's martial prowess is unknown, and you've failed to prove he's slower and not as strong.

The Sith prioritize martial abilities. Do you really think Yoda spent a lot of time outside of saber combat when his body proportions clearly don't favor H2H?

I don't need it specified to me that Palpatine would realistically have more H2H training than Yoda, particularly when Yoda was primarily active during a time of peace.

This doesn't actually address my argument. His body proportions don't favour H2H, sure, and he may not have spent the same percentage of his lifetime studying it as Palpatine has, but given that the little green freak has been alive for 900 years that's hardly disadvantageous for him. Again, we have no way to assess what Yoda is bringing to the table, so I have no reason to assume Sidious wins.

Somethings are fairly self evident upon first glance.

In this case, physicals play an even bigger part in a wrestling match than a lightsaber duel.

One of the main points of the OT was that Yoda was physically inferior to Luke, but his power was not tied to his physicality.

That's actually a key aspect of Yoda's character.

Yoda can flip around without a lightsaber, but you need more than that to win a wrestling match.

Given that I never claimed Yoda's power is "tied to his physicality" there's nothing to address here. In terms of what we actually know:

-Yoda's augmentation pushes him up to the same tier as Sidious in physical strength and speed (he's possibly superior) regardless of his base physical strength.
-Sidious has the height, weight, and leverage advantages.
-Yoda's martial prowess relative to Sidious is unknown.

And the problem for me is that there isn't enough info to assess the outcome, given that the third variable is unknown.