Re: Tau Idair vs Darth Marr

July 17th 2020, 8:03 am

If you have a reputation as someone not to be trifled with, are an Imperial legend, and are considered extremely wise, of course the DC is going to give him their undivided attention when many are, as Grey helpfully pointed out, members who have only been on the Council for a few weeks/months. You're essentially arguing that reputation is meaningless as it won't cause people to pay attention to you, when it's the complete opposite.

And, as usual, you're strawmanning me. I never said reputation doesn't induce fear, I said reputation as a tactician/strategist specifically doesn't. I think it's entirely plausible Marr's reputation makes the DC fear him, his reputation as a warrior and a force user. Now, it's up to you to prove that that rep is in any way exaggerated, which I don't think there's any evidence of. More than that however, the DC can tell through sensing Marr's power in the force whether said rep is earned, and they seem to think it is, so, if anything, I think it's likely to be accurate.

Marr is seen as the leader because of his "reputation and wisdom." That's clear as day. None of this helps Marr even slightly when it comes to a comparison between him and Malgus.

A reputation as a warrior without basis for exaggeration that makes the DC (including Malgus and those superior to him) quake with fear is very much so indicative of Marr's supremacy. Of course you don't agree though, because you're not interested in good faith debating so much as you are in wanking your favourites. Cease this bad habbit and gain a more objective attitude pls. Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 228124001

Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 228124001

They're no more generic than any of Marr's, and all of them are made decades before Malgus' prime.

Uh... yes they are. The accolades presented for Marr are indicative of direct superiority to Malgus, Malgus's merely list him as a great among a huge number of people, something likewise applicable to Marr.

That explains a lot.

FYI, in case it wasn't obvious, editing horse shit into my comments and banning me so I couldn't edit it out till now was punishment for me being snarky.

July 17th 2020, 8:09 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Sjuttiosju wrote:FYI, in case it wasn't obvious editing horse shit into my comments and banning me so I couldn't edit it out was punishment for me being snarky.

Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 9e738410

July 24th 2020, 1:11 pm

@Sjuttiosju Apologies for the late response. Personal issues delayed my reply.

And, as usual, you're strawmanning me. I never said reputation doesn't induce fear, I said reputation as a tactician/strategist specifically doesn't. I think it's entirely plausible Marr's reputation makes the DC fear him, his reputation as a warrior and a force user. Now, it's up to you to prove that that rep is in any way exaggerated, which I don't think there's any evidence of.

I never claimed Marr's reputation is exaggerated. Quite the contrary, really. I said it's his accomplishments that make him such a revered figure within the DC. He is seen, for want of a better phrase, as the de-facto leader of the Empire.

More than that however, the DC can tell through sensing Marr's power in the force whether said rep is earned, and they seem to think it is, so, if anything, I think it's likely to be accurate.

He can be more powerful than members of the DC like Vowrawn (who's vastly sub Act 3 EW) and Thanaton (who's vastly sub Act 3 Nox: also worth noting Marr never thought Thanaton would be surpassed by another being in his lifetime) and still not be more powerful than Malgus, who is > both of these characters.

A reputation as a warrior without basis for exaggeration that makes the DC (including Malgus and those superior to him) quake with fear is very much so indicative of Marr's supremacy.

So basically you've agreed with me - in your own roundabout way - that Marr is respected because of his accomplishments as a leader, tactician/strategist, and a warrior, not because he's automatically more powerful than every single DC member (though he is, this is a separate argument), especially one who was deliberately pretending to be subservient in order to forge his new Empire.

Of course you don't agree though, because you're not interested in good faith debating so much as you are in wanking your favourites. Cease this bad habbit and gain a more objective attitude pls.

Oh DC, you know as well as I that Malgus and Marr are both among my favourite Sith, and that I prefer the latter. Don't ruin a decent post with shitty ad hominems that simply aren't true. Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 228124001

Uh... yes they are. The accolades presented for Marr are indicative of direct superiority to Malgus,

You've yet to prove that Marr's authority in the Council isn't a marker of his reputation and previous accomplishments (when he's repeatedly referred to be respected for his will to serve the Empire and is instead primarily a result of his skills as a swordsman or Force user. Note that his abilities as a strategist are a huge part of his reputation, at least among the Republic (and most likely among the Empire, too):

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Malgus's merely list him as a great among a huge number of people, something likewise applicable to Marr.

You've handwaved my point. He's given these accolades decades before his prime.

I've still yet to see why Marr's reputation grants him some measure of superiority over FE Malgus when he lacks the feats and is reliant on accolades that either don't bind Malgus (ROTHC) or are as much due to his accomplishments and reputation as anything, whereas comparisons exist between a vastly pre-prime Malgus and his skills as a warrior and a pre-SWTOR Marr.

As another point of interest, it's never Marr alone that Malgus supplicates to. His secret plan to weaken the Empire and form his own aside, he's only ever commanded by multiple members of the DC, which includes Mortis and others.

Malgus has direct feats that peg him above Marr by virtue of FE, including having moments where he was utterly invincible and could only be defeated by being knocked off the ledge (which is the canonical ending, IIRC). Marr lacks those feats, and his quotes neither bind Malgus, nor do they cap Malgus below him. You have so far failed to prove that beyond claiming Marr's authority over the Council goes far beyond his reputation and leadership abilities (which are likely included under the header of that quote claiming his "desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none").

July 24th 2020, 1:28 pm

I'll respond tomorrow.

July 24th 2020, 1:41 pm

@Sjuttiosju No worries. Just thought you might also be interested in this if discussing Malgus being subservient to Marr's authority, as it implies that Malgus only served on the DC and did what they wanted to further his own goals (e.g. gaining the loyalty of the Kaleesh on Ilum), and it was only Vitiate that stopped him from trying to seize power:

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The Empire will be victorious over the Republic; this is unquestioned. But to Darth Malgus, victory should have come with the Sacking of Coruscant. Now, he believes, the obscure designs of the Sith Emperor, a cultural disdain for aliens and infighting within the Sith have all left the Empire incapable of winning the war.

With his mind broadened--or tainted--by years of travel and study among alien cultures, Malgus carefully cultivated the opinions of likeminded Sith leaders for years. Upon the recent disappearance of the Emperor, he seized the opportunity to create a new Empire--one that embraces alien cultures and is strengthened by diversity.

Just food for thought.

July 27th 2020, 9:42 am

@BoD (away):

I never claimed Marr's reputation is exaggerated. Quite the contrary, really. I said it's his accomplishments that make him such a revered figure within the DC. He is seen, for want of a better phrase, as the de-facto leader of the Empire.

I never said your assertions on Marr involved a statement of his rep being exaggerated. I said that's what you'd have to prove (not what you've tried to prove), because otherwise your case crumbles from within itself. I've already explained that it would be his reputation as a warrior and a force user which would grant him authority over the DC to the point where they're intimidated by him (a reputation as a tactician is not going to induce fear into someone while in the middle of a conversation, especially when they command greater strength in the force than you). Given you never actually addressed that point and instead tried to catch me out on something I never said you claimed, I think it's fair to chalk this up to a concession of Marr's superiority. We're making progress it seems. Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 1289255181

Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 1289255181

He can be more powerful than members of the DC like Vowrawn (who's vastly sub Act 3 EW) and Thanaton (who's vastly sub Act 3 Nox: also worth noting Marr never thought Thanaton would be surpassed by another being in his lifetime) and still not be more powerful than Malgus, who is > both of these characters.

The quote would include Malgus given his stint as a member of the DC, and if Marr's indifferent reaction to Nox (Malgus's superior) thrashing Thanaton is any indication, he's likely above him too.

So basically you've agreed with me - in your own roundabout way - that Marr is respected because of his accomplishments as a leader, tactician/strategist, and a warrior,

Very sneaky way of trying to make it seem like I'm agreeing with you BoD. It won't work though, because I've payed careful attention to everything I've said, and not once did I agree with the notion that Marr's intimidation comes from his abilities as a tactician/strategist, rather I emphasised it was his skill as a warrior specifically that made him intimidating.

Oh DC, you know as well as I that Malgus and Marr are both among my favourite Sith, and that I prefer the latter. Don't ruin a decent post with shitty ad hominems that simply aren't true.

I find playful jabs essential when conducting debates with the BOD's of the world. Tau Idair vs Darth Marr - Page 2 228124001

You've handwaved my point. He's given these accolades decades before his prime.

Which doesn't change the fact that they don't tie to Marr. Him growing afterwards just proves he's even better than when he was a great, but it says nothing about his relation with Marr.

Just thought you might also be interested in this if discussing Malgus being subservient to Marr's authority, as it implies that Malgus only served on the DC and did what they wanted to further his own goals (e.g. gaining the loyalty of the Kaleesh on Ilum), and it was only Vitiate that stopped him from trying to seize power:

That Malgus is planning a power grab isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that he's intimidated by Marr due to the latter's strength in the force and skill as a warrior.

Malgus has direct feats that peg him above Marr by virtue of FE, including having moments where he was utterly invincible and could only be defeated by being knocked off the ledge (which is the canonical ending, IIRC).

In gameplay mechanics. Which doesn't change the fact that any of them can take him solo.