Tau Idair vs Darth Marr

July 15th 2020, 7:58 am

All-out

July 15th 2020, 8:59 am

Marr > Tau > Malgus

July 15th 2020, 9:25 am

July 15th 2020, 9:34 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Marr

July 15th 2020, 11:14 am

Marr stomps. Tau doesn't have a single feat to suggest she's a match for him.

July 15th 2020, 3:55 pm

HeartoftheForce wrote:Marr > Tau > Malgus

Malgus>>Marr

July 15th 2020, 3:57 pm

HeartoftheForce wrote:Marr > Tau > Malgus

Malgus is significantly above Marr by Onslaught.

July 15th 2020, 4:11 pm

Malgus has done nothing to place him above Marr at all.

July 15th 2020, 5:34 pm

You say that like Marr has any feats to put him above FE Malgus.

July 15th 2020, 5:38 pm

If only he hadn't been stated as superior.

July 15th 2020, 5:44 pm

HeartoftheForce wrote:If only he hadn't been stated as superior.

He's stated as "second to none" in a single, vague reference to abilities:

But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none.

Considering Marr was seen as the leader of the Dark Council and then the de facto leader of the Empire when Vitiate went silent, this could just as easily be talking about his tactical or leadership abilities. Furthermore, if it is referring to combat abilities, any advantage it grants him is minor at best since he lacks the feats or comparisons to indicate any substantial gap. Since Onslaught Malgus is > FE Malgus, there's no reason it binds him.

Edit: If I remember correctly, that lore entry was also added after the FE story arc, though I'll have to double check. If so, it also excludes FE Malgus, since he was considered dead at the time.

July 15th 2020, 6:04 pm

Yep, definitely doesn't include FE Malgus. Malgus was considered dead as of FE (patch 1.1, I believe), whereas Rise of the Hutt Cartel (where the codex entry is from) was released in 2.0:

July 16th 2020, 7:19 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

If the accolade is for that time period that's even better as it scales him above Nox and Wrath. Both of whom at this point can solo Malgus. Besides, Marr is still head of the council and therefore above Malgus who until Ilum was on the damn thing. It's not like he got a random power spike from not being loyal to the empire anymore.

Also there's no indication that Onslaught Malgus is above FE.

So no. Marr > Malgus. By either this quote or Council scaling.

July 16th 2020, 7:53 am

If the accolade is for that time period that's even better as it scales him above Nox and Wrath. Both of whom at this point can solo Malgus

The story was originally a FP, meaning that it took the four protagonists from either side. They also only beat him because doubt and uncertainty began to affect his abilities, and also by using ion grenades to stagger him.

Besides, Marr is still head of the council and therefore above Malgus who until Ilum was on the damn thing.

Since when has being the head of the Council meant anything? Thanaton was one of its most senior members and was basically trash compared to Nox. Vowrawn was arguably its longest serving and one of its most distinctive members, and he was trash compared to most characters of note such as Lana, Draahg, the Emperor's Wrath, and so on. Second, going to need a source for him proactively being on the Dark Council. He was treated more as an enforcer than anything rather than as an active member (having been sent by Ravage, Marr and Mortis to Ilum). I hope you're not basing this on his statement about Regus appealing to the Dark Council for help, because that is a stretch at best.

I also want to point out that Regus - a guy who more or less worships the Dark Council members - treated Malgus with little to no respect. So unless you have a source confirming he was on the Dark Council (there might well be one, I can't keep track of all of its members), it seems like a stretch.

In any case, being the "head of the Council" means very little by this point. Marr was seen as the head because of his reputation, ideals and actions. That doesn't translate to him being > Malgus.

It's not like he got a random power spike from not being loyal to the empire anymore.

What? He went through emotional growth around the time of the class stories, so yes he did grow more powerful.

Also there's no indication that Onslaught Malgus is above FE.

Normally Force users grow over time. The time gap between FE and Onslaught is around 12 years (13 ATC to 25 ATC), during which Malgus was rebuilt and enhanced by cybernetic augmentations and showed massive superiority to virtually every Dark Council member, as well as briefly contending with the Outlander when he was matched by the four protagonists in FE (who even collectively are ragdoll levels below the Outlander). It's pretty clear that there was power growth.

So no. Marr > Malgus. By either this quote or Council scaling.

Both of which you've failed to substantiate thus far.

July 16th 2020, 8:46 am

As for Malgus being a member of the Dark Council

Tau Idair vs Darth Marr Be50dc1dc60e7177c098cdde13be01e9

July 16th 2020, 9:49 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

The story was originally a FP, meaning that it took the four protagonists from either side. They also only beat him because doubt and uncertainty began to affect his abilities

The quote is actually that desperation clouded his abilities. If he was desperate he was clearly losing anyway. Only the Knight states this. The other characters have different opinions + the different dialogue options. In some of these options they outright say Malgus is weak. No option is more canon than the other. So cherry picking this one doesn't work.

Marr being the longest living Council Member by decades when members rule typically only lasts months says it all. Not to mention that it's stated his is the most powerful as the councils leader.

"In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Your example with Lana is a farce. She cheapshotted those two. And evidence has been provided for Malgus being a council member literally hours before he starts his False Emperor fad.

What? He went through emotional growth around the time of the class stories, so yes he did grow more powerful.

Proof? Irrelevant anyway as he would still be subject to council binding.

Normally Force users grow over time. The time gap between FE and Onslaught is around 12 years (13 ATC to 25 ATC), during which Malgus was rebuilt and enhanced by cybernetic augmentations

He was frozen for said time. So he wasn't doing jack. Likewise he is stated to only be as strong as before. Not to increase. So no. He did not grow.

briefly contending with the Outlander

I see no reason to believe it wasn't a curbstomp. Malgus landing one leeway push when everyone thought he was down (they had even put their weapons away) is simply not enough. And again, despite fighting Malgus and the Outlander Tau was able to perform the same feat as Malgus with greater ease. Notably Malgus was unable to react to this and was gravely injured.

And no Tau's fretting doesn't change this. Hell in the context of the conversation, she's not even talking about the fight. But Malgus pulling the facility down and having to be save by Kira and Scourge.

July 16th 2020, 11:23 am

@Blackymarket Cheers, wasn't aware of that.

@Sjuttiosju I asked for the correction, so if you can't be bothered to read, go be a nuisance somewhere else.

@Heartoftheforce

The quote is actually that desperation clouded his abilities. If he was desperate he was clearly losing anyway. Only the Knight states this. The other characters have different opinions + the different dialogue options. In some of these options they outright say Malgus is weak. No option is more canon than the other. So cherry picking this one doesn't work.

Not what I was referring to.

Malgus starts doubting himself about halfway through the duel. The team then only defeat him through the use of ion grenades and by knocking him off the platform to his apparent death:

At around 10%, Malgus stops taking damage and chain casts Force lighting. You cannot interrupt this and cannot line of sight (LOS) it. You should start kiting Malgus to the ledge at around 15%.
He will direct this at random party members and each tick hits for 1.8 k HP. This is essentially a soft enrage and you need to push Malgus off the ledge or you will run out of time eventually as your healers cannot keep up with the heavy group damage.

They physically can't break through his defences or hurt him whereas he can kill them fairly quickly at this point as he goes all out on one last offensive as the self-destruct counts down to zero:

"You will join me in death, as will your Republic fleet."

Marr being the longest living Council Member by decades when members rule typically only lasts months says it all.

Vowrawn has also ruled for decades, so I don't see your point. Considering Malgus didn't seek a Dark Council seat, this is redundant:

As Malgus grew in prominence, fighting at the Battle of Alderaan and later during the Sacking of Coruscant, his travels and alliances with aliens--including a relationship with his Twi'lek slave-- marked him as an unorthodox figure. Caring nothing for the power plays common to Sith, Darth Malgus has spent the last few years strengthening his ties to alien groups.

Not to mention that it's stated his is the most powerful as the councils leader.

Neither of your quotes peg him as the most powerful in any shape or form. I've already explained why he was seen as the head of the Dark Council. Your own quote confirms that it's his reputation and wisdom that are why he's considered the head of the Council:

"When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom."

Your example with Lana is a farce. She cheapshotted those two.

Cheapshotted this guy:

[size=17]His passionate, almost hedonistic pursuit of challenge is well known among his peers, who have learned never to underestimate his cutthroat enthusiasm. Vowrawn revels in the game of conquest and Sith power plays, driven to euphoria by all the rich details of his favorite sport.

Many upstart Sith have attempted to best Vowrawn over the years through a variety of strategies, from complex schemes to bluntly direct surprise attacks. Although some scored temporary victories, Vowrawn's talent for adjusting his strategy on the fly has left him the final victor in all these confrontations.
[/size]

So he's not very good at watching his back, then - which we know isn't true if he's survived this long. That still leaves Draahg (who's < Act 3 EW and thus <<< FE Malgus), for example. Marr being the longest living is meaningless when even Vowrawn - who has zero Force feats or scaling - has survived for decades. Marr isn't attacked because he's respected as the head of the Empire.

Since you enjoy using singular quotes so much, even pre-Return Malgus is compared to the greatest swordsmen of the Order (including Marr) well before his future growth:

He then grew immensely after this on top of everything else.

Proof?

Irrelevant anyway as he would still be subject to council binding.

Meaningless "binding" quotes. Marr is a better leader and has served the Council for longer. None of that precludes Malgus from being more powerful or more skilled than him.

He was frozen for said time.

In a deleted trailer that is dubiously canonical:

Having returned to the galactic stage as part of the Empire's assault on the Jedi colony of Ossus, Darth Malgus has become a topic of widespread debate and investigation once more-particularly his improbable survival after his attempted coup during the battle of Ilum.

The most popular theory holds that agents of Darth Acina, then a high-ranking member of the Sphere of Technology, retrieved Malgus and resuscitated him, transforming the cyborg Sith into her own secret enforcer. That she gained control of an agent as deadly as Malgus would explain much about her subsequent rise to the Imperial throne. Some now theorize that Acina may even have used Malgus to eliminate her rivals on the Dark Council during the confusion of the war against Zakuul, though this remains only conjecture.

Likewise he is stated to only be as strong as before. Not to increase. So no. He did not grow.

All evidence to the contrary.

I see no reason to believe it wasn't a curbstomp. Malgus landing one leeway push when everyone thought he was down (they had even put their weapons away) is simply not enough.

I was referring to the fact that the duel was long enough for Malgus to:

Conjure illusions,
Taunt the Outlander about not killing them,
Mock the trio's abilities,
Compliment the Outlander's abilities but then admonish him for not having the strength to beat Malgus,
Ends with Tau and Arn about 10 metres away while the Outlander is in a fighting stance as Malgus collapses before lowering his weapon.

No reason why he'd be doing so if the duel was over in seconds.

Malgus landing one leeway push when everyone thought he was down (they had even put their weapons away) is simply not enough.

Never claimed this was enough.

And again, despite fighting Malgus and the Outlander Tau was able to perform the same feat as Malgus with greater ease.

Tau had the help of numerous Jedi and Republic soldiers throughout the fight. And it wasn't "with greater ease." She did it faster because she had less to say. Malgus had more to say as he ranted. He shows no more strain than her, it's simply because he's still talking. Not to mention he was more badly hurt than her. Took him around 10 seconds to get up whereas it took her 7-8.

And no Tau's fretting doesn't change this. Hell in the context of the conversation, she's not even talking about the fight. But Malgus pulling the facility down and having to be save by Kira and Scourge.

That's blatantly not true.

"You're everything they say you are."
"And so was Malgus. We were lucky to survive at all. That wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been there. Thanks."
"The three of us are pretty hard to stop. We should work together more."

They then go on to talk about Kira and Scourge.

"Count me in."
"Before we go, there's something else we need to talk about. When Arn and I were buried in all of that wreckage...we didn't dig ourselves out. We had help."

And if you still want to insist that this is the case, this is what happens if you're a saboteur:

Arn is still in the medbay on one of the Corvettes. They didn't want to risk moving him. it's still a lot of work to do. I tried to help him as we fell, to reach out in the force, but...we just weren't synched up. Even so, we both survived against Darth Malgus. That wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been there. Thanks

Tau is clearly talking about the fight itself, not your interpretation of it.

TLDR: You've yet to explain how being "the most senior" member on the Dark Council gives Marr any sort of scaling over Malgus. The "second to none" quote is made after Malgus' perceived death, and the length of tenure on the Dark Council is likewise meaningless (since Vowrawn has also served for decades and is below the likes of Act 3 EW). Tau confirms that Malgus > her & Arn, and the Outlander is what saved her, irrespective of whether you save the Meridian Shipyards or not. FE Malgus was also defeated through ion grenades, wavering resolve and the combined attacks of the four protagonists from either faction, and even then they couldn't finish him off and had to resort to knocking him off the ledge (hence how his body is later recovered by Acina, if the theory is true).

July 16th 2020, 11:36 am

When you're 16 but masquerade as a 10-year old to "troll" people on the internet.

July 16th 2020, 11:46 am

@BoD:

Neither of your quotes peg him as the most powerful in any shape or form. I've already explained why he was seen as the head of the Dark Council. Your own quote confirms that it's his reputation and wisdom that are why he's considered the head of the Council:

Ignoring the fact that you outright didn't address Grey's first quote, you said that the second proves your point about Marr's leadership being due to Wisdom, except that's not all it says:

Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom.

Marr's intimidation is also a factor, and I very much doubt the DC are intimidated by someone less powerful than several of them. So yes, it does prove Marr is more powerful.

July 16th 2020, 11:52 am

Marr's intimidation is also a factor, and I very much doubt the DC are intimidated by someone less powerful than several of them. So yes, it does prove Marr is more powerful.

...You do realise Marr has a reputation as a warlord and tactician, right? He's respected because of his past accomplishments.

So as I said, he's respected because of his reputation as one of the Empire's finest tacticians and warriors. But I suppose that got omitted in your hastiness to respond. Malgus has the exact same kind of accolades about his capabilities as a warrior:

And this is as of around 28 ATC, so Malgus was already considered amongst the best warriors in the Empire (a category that also included Marr) when he was only 20, and long before he grew immensely.

So, since you decided to interject, I'll ask again: why does being the longest serving Dark Council member make Marr > Malgus?

July 16th 2020, 1:20 pm

@BoD:

A) His reputation as a warlord and tactician won't make him intimidating while speaking which is the context the quote is made in. Rather it's his power that makes him menacing enough so that the DC give him their undivided attention.

B) The other accolades you posted are generic and don't contradict what I just said.

July 16th 2020, 2:09 pm

HP does that too apparently

July 16th 2020, 2:10 pm

July 16th 2020, 2:30 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

A) His reputation as a warlord and tactician won't make him intimidating while speaking which is the context the quote is made in. Rather it's his power that makes him menacing enough so that the DC give him their undivided attention.

If you have a reputation as someone not to be trifled with, are an Imperial legend, and are considered extremely wise, of course the DC is going to give him their undivided attention when many are, as Grey helpfully pointed out, members who have only been on the Council for a few weeks/months. You're essentially arguing that reputation is meaningless as it won't cause people to pay attention to you, when it's the complete opposite. Marr is seen as the leader because of his "reputation and wisdom." That's clear as day. None of this helps Marr even slightly when it comes to a comparison between him and Malgus.

B) The other accolades you posted are generic and don't contradict what I just said.

They're no more generic than any of Marr's, and all of them are made decades before Malgus' prime. You can't handwave the accolades as "generic" when they offer a clear basis for establishing Malgus' abilities: being one of the most capable warriors of the Sith Empire (which includes Marr and others) when he was only 20, and long before he not only became a lord or Darth but before he killed Eleena and grew following that until FE. I have yet to see any evidence Marr is above him.

I still suck on my mom's tits for the milk since I don't like water, fyi.

That explains a lot.

Tau Idair vs Darth Marr Game-of-thrones-Robin-Arryn-drink

July 16th 2020, 4:00 pm

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