Re: RotS Dooku and Obi Wan vs. Yoda

June 17th 2020, 4:45 am

LOTL wrote:^Lmao

Haven't even gotten a reason as to why some people think Yoda can handwave Obi Wan here when nothing suggests such a massive gap between them in ability though

Why can't he simply just ragdoll and incapacitate Kenobi like Dooku did in ROTS?

June 17th 2020, 5:07 am

@Red12789 That's cool. What was your username there?

June 17th 2020, 5:44 am

@Azronger:

Same as it is here. I am pretty new there too tbh.

June 17th 2020, 5:45 am

Red12789 wrote:

LOTL wrote:^Lmao

Haven't even gotten a reason as to why some people think Yoda can handwave Obi Wan here when nothing suggests such a massive gap between them in ability though

Why can't he simply just ragdoll and incapacitate Kenobi like Dooku did in ROTS?

Because Dooku's ragdolling was him exploiting an opening and Obi Wan being surprised at the change in strategy at Dooku, though at that point he is not as good as the Count

Even then, Obi Wan is not at his peak then

June 17th 2020, 6:08 am

@LOTL

Because Dooku's ragdolling was him exploiting an opening

And Yoda can't do the same? RotS Dooku and Obi Wan vs. Yoda - Page 2 1220391476

and Obi Wan being surprised at the change in strategy at Dooku

Citation needed.

June 17th 2020, 6:17 am

@NotAA3 The citation is in our old debate, in case you have forgotten.

June 17th 2020, 6:29 am

Well, now it is certain that Obi Wan, much less being any use to Yoda, is not even able to give any meaning to the battle

Come on. Yoda can stalemate Palpatine who can change galactic nexuses. Yoda can move massive ships like nothing.

Meanwhile Boba managed to exploit an opening in Obi Wan and managed to beat him. And Boba is only a human

June 17th 2020, 6:52 am

IIRC, it was Dooku's knowledge of Obi-Wan's fighting style that enabled him to rag doll Obi-Wan, Dooku's always going to retain that knowledge, so it's perfectly plausible that he can rag doll Obi-Wan again if he chose to.

June 17th 2020, 6:54 am

No it was that and a number of other things too

Az has mentioned them. Also, Yoda lacks that knowledge, and this is about Yoda.

Dooku can obviously beat Obi Wan any time he wants. So can Yoda. The guy can't even beat Boba, you expect him to beat people that scale vastly above galactic level showings?

June 17th 2020, 6:57 am

@LOTL

"Because Dooku's ragdolling was him exploiting an opening"

And what makes you think that Yoda, who was superior to Dooku can't do the same?

"Obi Wan being surprised at the change in strategy at Dooku"

Has that been proven, or is it just an assumption?

Yoda has been able to lift entire mountains with his TK and match Sidious himself with the force, feats that dwarf any force feat Kenobi has, so there is absolutely no reason he shouldn't be able to ragdoll Kenobi, except that it's out of his character.

June 17th 2020, 6:57 am

LOTL wrote:Well, now it is certain that Obi Wan, much less being any use to Yoda, is not even able to give any meaning to the battle

Come on. Yoda can stalemate Palpatine who can change galactic nexuses. Yoda can move massive ships like nothing.

Meanwhile Boba managed to exploit an opening in Obi Wan and managed to beat him. And Boba is only a human

June 17th 2020, 7:07 am

How is Dooku familiar with Kenobi's Soresu if he hadn't seen it prior to their duel on the IH? Unless its a familiarity with Soresu in general, in which case Yoda would be privy to such an advantage as well

June 17th 2020, 7:12 am

KingofBlades wrote:How is Dooku familiar with Kenobi's Soresu if he hadn't seen it prior to their duel on the IH? Unless its a familiarity with Soresu in general, in which case Yoda would be privy to such an advantage as well

He only beat him when Obi Wan went to attack( and it is stated that the intent was to attack and end the battle at that moment) so given that he would have used the style 4, not 3, as 3 has almost no attacking component, Dooku would have been privy to knowledge about the style that Qui Gon taught Obi Wan, which in turn Dooku has intimate knowledge of( comparable to Obi Wan and Anakin) and can easily exploit. As he himself says that he knows every weakness of that style and is so sure that he can beat that style, that even after Obi Wan shows the true extent of his force augmented speed, Dooku still thinks that he can beat Obi Wan in a small number of moves which can easily explain why he could beat him that soon.

June 17th 2020, 7:37 am

June 17th 2020, 7:40 am

LOTL wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:How is Dooku familiar with Kenobi's Soresu if he hadn't seen it prior to their duel on the IH? Unless its a familiarity with Soresu in general, in which case Yoda would be privy to such an advantage as well

He only beat him when Obi Wan went to attack( and it is stated that the intent was to attack and end the battle at that moment) so given that he would have used the style 4, not 3, as 3 has almost no attacking component, Dooku would have been privy to knowledge about the style that Qui Gon taught Obi Wan, which in turn Dooku has intimate knowledge of( comparable to Obi Wan and Anakin) and can easily exploit. As he himself says that he knows every weakness of that style and is so sure that he can beat that style, that even after Obi Wan shows the true extent of his force augmented speed, Dooku still thinks that he can beat Obi Wan in a small number of moves which can easily explain why he could beat him that soon.

So Yoda...the greatest ataru practitioner of all time...is less familiar with ataru than Dooku?

June 17th 2020, 7:58 am

KingofBlades wrote:

LOTL wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:How is Dooku familiar with Kenobi's Soresu if he hadn't seen it prior to their duel on the IH? Unless its a familiarity with Soresu in general, in which case Yoda would be privy to such an advantage as well

He only beat him when Obi Wan went to attack( and it is stated that the intent was to attack and end the battle at that moment) so given that he would have used the style 4, not 3, as 3 has almost no attacking component, Dooku would have been privy to knowledge about the style that Qui Gon taught Obi Wan, which in turn Dooku has intimate knowledge of( comparable to Obi Wan and Anakin) and can easily exploit. As he himself says that he knows every weakness of that style and is so sure that he can beat that style, that even after Obi Wan shows the true extent of his force augmented speed, Dooku still thinks that he can beat Obi Wan in a small number of moves which can easily explain why he could beat him that soon.

So Yoda...the greatest ataru practitioner of all time...is less familiar with ataru than Dooku?

In terms of countering an opponent? Yeah

Let's say you create a copy of yourself and assuming you play tennis, let's pit these copies against each other. Then, let's pit a guy who has been playing against you all the time. The guy will play much better than the copy will. Because he knows all there is to know about opposing the style that you play in. Meanwhile the copy cannot. Because no matter how much he has the mental knowledge, he hasn't actually played you and doesn't know much about playing you, only that he can copy the style you can play in and can maybe match you that way. He will not be better at anticipating what you will play, when you play it, he will be excellent at anticipating the other guy's style but not the style you play in.

Yoda has the advantage because he is the epitome of that style. But Dooku has an even bigger advantage because he is the epitome on how to "beat" that style.

Not that the battle will go the same way. Obi Wan may choose to stay in his chosen style and not attack at all.

June 17th 2020, 9:58 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

In terms of countering an opponent? Yeah

Let's say you create a copy of yourself and assuming you play tennis, let's pit these copies against each other. Then, let's pit a guy who has been playing against you all the time. The guy will play much better than the copy will. Because he knows all there is to know about opposing the style that you play in. Meanwhile the copy cannot. Because no matter how much he has the mental knowledge, he hasn't actually played you and doesn't know much about playing you, only that he can copy the style you can play in and can maybe match you that way. He will not be better at anticipating what you will play, when you play it, he will be excellent at anticipating the other guy's style but not the style you play in.

Yoda has the advantage because he is the epitome of that style. But Dooku has an even bigger advantage because he is the epitome on how to "beat" that style.

Not that the battle will go the same way. Obi Wan may choose to stay in his chosen style and not attack at all.

Maybe at the novice level this would ring true, but this is only because a novice is not fully familiar with the form he uses himself. A true master of his respective craft would be intimately familiar with not only the strength of his style, but also his weaknesses. Yoda being the true master of ataru would mean he's more familiar with its strengths and weaknesses than anyone in galactic history. Meanwhile Dooku's knowledge of ataru is apparently derived from Jinn, an inferior Ataru user to Yoda. So if knowledge of ataru was some sort of cheat-sheet for Dooku, then Yoda definitely has it too.

One thing I want to stress is that the strategy Dooku chooses to use in one scenario does not necessitate him needing to use it in all scenarios. The film, adult novelization, and Jr novelization all possess similar, but separate circumstances that we should examine independently of one another. The quote, for instance, would only be referring to the film, as only in the film is Kenobi on the offensive locked in saber combat with Dooku. In the jr novel, Kenobi isn't engaged in combat, he's running toward Dooku when he gets rag dolled. I know Kenobi was apparently caught off guard by Dooku's switch in tactics, but if Dooku is capable of using TK with such speed that Kenobi is caught unawares, then someone with superior power and mastery like Yoda would be capable of doing so as well. Then in the adult novel, the circumstances change again; Kenobi isn't running disengaged in combat, nor is he on the offensive uisng ataru. He's completely immersed in Soresu and doing the infamous STONEWALLING bit of his. And despite having his defensive bubble up, Dooku is still able to TK Kenobi with, "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist...". Whether Dooku did this by outright tearing through Kenobi's force defenses or attacking too quickly for Kenobi to react isn't commented on, but Dooku breaking Kenobi's force barrier is certainly on the table. Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the form knowledge quote, nor the caught off guard quote state Dooku needed to do those things, nothing precludes Dooku outright ragdolling Kenobi in the adult novel. And I mean,at the end of the day, in every scenario, each with their own set of unique context and circumstances, Dooku always found a way to TK Kenobi.

With that said, the actual question that matters here is if Yoda is capable of replicating any of the 3 ways Dooku TKed Kenobi. I've already explained why he should be able to replicate what Dooku did in the film, but even if he can't, there's no reason he can't do what Dooku did in either the adult novel or the Jr novel.

June 17th 2020, 10:00 am

Please change the text. It is white

June 17th 2020, 1:10 pm

FYI, I've fixed the text color in case you haven't checked @LOTL

June 18th 2020, 1:43 am

LOTL:
Kenobi's so called "massive inferiority" to Palpatine is based on Yoda's testimony, which along with not actually being accurate due to him not knowing anything about Palpatine other than that he faced 4 Jedi one of whom was Mace and actually beat them all, is also before he witnesses Obi Wan at his best "tapping" into abilities like never before. The same goes for any musing by Palpatine. A note that Obi Wan actually thinks both him and Yoda wouldn't have a chance against Palpatine based only on him beating the 4 Jedi. Both Obi Wan and Yoda do. They don't know what arcane abilities Palpatine has( the haze that he used to beat the B team) and that Anakin intervened in the battle.

Which is a feat way above Obi's paygrade RotS Dooku and Obi Wan vs. Yoda - Page 2 3344068304

@LOTL

It is also unclear how much the haze helped him, it likely wasn't very much. We also have to keep in mind that Mace also fought Palpatine in the most powerful state he had ever been in and still lost. Palp's power was stated to be more powerful than Mace's Vaapad ability so the outcome of Mace's defeat would of been the same without Any's intervention.

Also Palps was capable of moving this fast according to Anakin's perception and we already know Anakin is faster than Obi:

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

June 18th 2020, 4:40 am

SnowxElf wrote:It is also unclear how much the haze helped him, it likely wasn't very much

Actually, the haze was devastating. Credit to Reynard(Ethanion)

RotS Dooku and Obi Wan vs. Yoda - Page 2 E1690a10

June 18th 2020, 12:36 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:It is also unclear how much the haze helped him, it likely wasn't very much

Actually, the haze was devastating. Credit to Reynard(Ethanion)

I didn't know that this existed. However, it really doesn't take away from Sidious' feat. Even Kit Fisto had plenty of time to react and he was still cut down almost immediately while Sidious was also fighting an amped Mace. Tin was still killed immediately after he had time to react to Sidious killing Kolar. In the ROTS novel there is no mention of a haze at all. From the overall presentation of the lore it's very clear that Sidious' speed was much more important than the haze. Also this quote still does not really answer how much the haze helped him. The fact they were not able to focus on him well could have more to do with the fact that he was fast than the actual haze.

June 18th 2020, 1:25 pm

June 18th 2020, 1:46 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:

RotS Dooku and Obi Wan vs. Yoda - Page 2 39523600

Do you have a counter argument? I am willing to debate you on this.

June 18th 2020, 2:21 pm

Yoda most likely.