Revan vs Exar Kun

Probably should have made it clearer that was what your confusion was about, then. Also, I don’t subscribe to it. I’m saying it’s an acceptable scaling chain that puts Revan > Kun, not necessarily that I follow it. I have different reasons for putting Revan above Kun but not Arcann above Kun.

@BoD:  So... what's the take, though?

Check my previous post. Edited it for clarification.

Darth Nihilus wrote:@LadyKulvax

Not sure how this adds up to the 'Malak is canonically superior to Kun' debate but consider the following:

“Freedon Nadd was a dark Jedi, he conquered Onderon long ago and became their king. The royal line is directly descended from him. The stories say that he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted and the Sith presence here makes the danger great."

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith."

-Mandalorian Scout & Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords 


This seems to state that Freedon Nadd was superior to both Darth Revan and Darth Malak. Since Kun is superior to Nadd, then Malak could not be superior to Kun.

Looks like a SUBJECTIVE take on things. Being far worse may imply being more evil - nothing more.

Freedon Nadd corrupted and converted Exar Kun which is a significant display of influence on his part. Credit where due.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak - each had a significant impact on the galaxy as well.

The Sith Triumvirate was a byproduct of the legacy of Darth Revan and Darth Malak in Malachor V.

Darth Revan even had a secret group of followers in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire who rose to prominence in 3638 BBY and created much trouble for both the Republic and the Empire respectively.

Bannite Sith were a byproduct of the legacy of Darth Revan in Lehon - a development which had significant consequences for so many in the years to come.

The entire scene is a description of the power of Freedon Nadd's tomb, so the context directly concerns the Force.

LadyKulvax wrote:The entire scene is a description of the power of Freedon Nadd's tomb, so the context directly concerns the Force.

What kind of power? Its corrupting influence?

"The stories say he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted, and a Sith presence here make the danger great." - Mandalorian

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here, and it will grant its strength to the Sith." - Darth Traya

A tomb is not representative of one's powers in life. It is rather a monument dedicated to one's popularity (legacy) and corrupting influence.

No they aren't, they are generally reflective of one's power but Nadd takes it to an entirely new level:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:After his death, Nadd's sarcophagus became the focus of dark-side energy, and enabled Nadd's descendants continue to battle their own people in a civil war.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide wrote:Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Brianna, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can sense the power from this place. It's like the light abandoned it long ago. I fear the Sith shall be very strong here."

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Freedon Nadd's power seems to have been underestimated, his legacy lives in the very stones of his resting place. Anyone attuned to the dark side would have a tremendous advantage here."

^^^

That is very nice connection of dots from you (credit where due). Yes, he was very powerful in life, and his corrupting influence after his death is testament to this fact.

But Darth Malak and Darth Revan do not have tombs of their own; each did not receive a burial. WE do not know what kind of mark these two would leave even in death.

Therefore, that Mandalorian and Darth Traya are offering a subjective assessment based on their exposure to corrupting influence of Freedon Nadd's tomb. These two never worked with Darth Malak and Darth Revan respectively, they have little idea.

Tomb of Naga Sadow was arguably the most impactful on Korriban. Yet, Revan would kick his @** in a fight. Probably Malak too.

1.This is irrelevant, the basis of comparison is between Freedon Nadd in life (and I imagine as a spirit before that died too) and Darths Revan and Malak in the context of explaining the power of Nadd's tomb. Something she reaffirms to be an understatement the further into the tomb she gets

2.Kreia is aware of Freedon Nadd's power and the powers of his predecessors, due to the holocrons gathered on Telos, and information confirmed to be accurate by Chris Avellone, the story's writer.

3.Kreia is fully aware of the potential of her star pupil and was quite aware of Darth Revan's power due to seeing his future 'even then you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.', having felt Revan's presence marked in the crystal caves of Dantooine, having subsumed herself in Malachor V for years, having seen Revan himself towards the end of the Mandalorian Wars and a plethora of other examples.

The comparison is solid and is fully in line with the rest of the story. Such as Ludo Kressh's tomb completely overwhelming a near prime KotOR 2 Exile, leaving the live Ludo Kressh to be far, far more powerful than her. Yet Ludo is at best close to Naga Sadow who is utterly dwarfed in power by Freedon Nadd prior to a century of power-growth and even maintains a massive demonstratable gap in spiritual form over a Naga Sadow massively empowered by a ship.

You can also factor in that the base Force power of Darth Nihilus is a magnitude above the rest of the KotOR era; an underestimation of the gap per the script, yet is also per the script only a 'rival' to 'some' of the ancient Sith. Freedon Nadd is canonically far, far above the ancient Sith besides Marka Ragnos and possibly Tulak Hord.

The entire game is full of one narrative, the ancient Sith are supreme and Nadd is no exception.

Requoting from our last discussion:

• You have to prove Kreia's agreeing with the Mandalorian's whole paragraph. There's no indication of that. The claim that she specifically repeats after saying "yes" to is the claim that this is a dark side nexus and the Sith can exploit that. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.
  
• You have to prove "far worse" is referring to Force powers rather just the literal meaning of being far worse. Nadd is a "legendary tyrant" who subjugated his city by force and had criminals be eaten alive by wild animals. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.
  
• Plus it's cut-content. Where's the proof it's canon? G-Canon deleted scenes being canon doesn't make EU cut content canon. Is the Outlander Valkorion's son, too? 
  

Plus Malak quote reigns regardless, yada yada.

1.That's really beyond the point here, Kreia is saying the soldier is correct outright. The entirety of the Freedon Nadd's tomb mission is literally about the resurrection of the 'legendary tyrant' himself. You're acting as if Kreia has to be agreeing with only one portion instead of the whole. Yet further into the tomb she quite literally reaffirms her previous agreement by saying 'Freedon Nadd's power seems to have been underestimated, his legacy lives on in the very stones of his resting place.' She's not just saying that the soldier is right, but that what is believed about him was an underestimation specifically regarding his power and further repeats that this power is reflected in the tomb's very stones.

This could not possibly be a clearer context.

2.Playing the cut-content card with KOTOR 2 is itself a pretty under-handed counter and you know it. The scene was fully created. The ability to bring her with you was cut-out like many other pieces of content. This doesn't change what it means and you know that full well.

3.The Malak quote as we both know is hardly the ace in the hole that it's been portrayed as and the author of the article himself has stated which of our two interpretations is the 'definite' one.

In regards to the quote about Freedon Nadd being "worse":

These are stories that the mandalorian heard, most likely from Onderon citizens, about how bad he was. If you think about it, it most likely isn't about power. From an Onderon citizen's perspective, he was far worse. He was an evil tyrant who ruled for over 100 years, killed many, practiced sith magics, and corrupted the atmosphere around Onderon. He left a huge impact on Onderon long after death such as his tomb being a dark side nexus, royal blood line being his, and his corruption of Exar Kun. Revan and Malak were only sith for a couple years before being taken down and they never conquered Onderon. If you were an Onderon citizen of course you would tell stories about how Nadd was worse.

Despite that, it must be noted that Chris Avellone did state there were multiple times in Kotor 2 where they purposefully hyped up the ancient sith lords because they had plans for kotor 3 where you would fight some and they would be monstrously powerful. Because this never happened, you can probably assume these quotes he speaks of no longer apply since they were for a purpose that never came to fruition.

It's well known from feats and from multiple sources that Revan is one of the most powerful sith lords of all time. In order to be far more powerful than Revan you would need to be on Vitiate/Sidious level type of power. I know Nadd is incredibly powerful and one of the most powerful of all time, but I don't believe he is on their level. Unless Nadd is proven to be on the same level as Vitiate then he is not far more powerful than Revan.

Slight issue with your logic, the soldier is speaking from what he's told after Mandalorian intelligence looked up the history of the Tomb from external sources. So it has nothing to do with a biased Onderonian perspective.

But this is moot, the entire point here wasn't even to definitively state either way what this means. Merely that the conversation remains open.

I see what you mean but any intelligence they would have gathered would most likely have originated from Onderon sources. Logically if you wanted to learn about Freedon Nadd and a tomb on Dxun you would check with Onderon records since that's where he ruled for 100 years. Also since he said stories instead of reports, it's likely they also heard stories/legends from the locals. But either way I was just wanting to add in my little bit in there

Wow, my old posts were cringeworthy.

R1: Could go either way but leaning Revan.

R2: Leaning Kun due to sorcery.

R3: Leaning Kun.

Revan is powerful, knowledgeable and versatile enough that both the Force round and the all-out round could go either way if Kun screws up. That said, I put more stock in Kun's more unorthodox abilities to give him the edge.

Prime Kun is JA Kun which means Revan is getting stomped.

revan still

BreakofDawn wrote:Wow, my old posts were cringeworthy.

R1: Could go either way but leaning Revan.

R2: Leaning Kun due to sorcery.

R3: Leaning Kun.

Revan is powerful, knowledgeable and versatile enough that both the Force round and the all-out round could go either way if Kun screws up. That said, I put more stock in Kun's more unorthodox abilities to give him the edge.

So I take it you dont subscribe to the Malak quote?

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Wow, my old posts were cringeworthy.

R1: Could go either way but leaning Revan.

R2: Leaning Kun due to sorcery.

R3: Leaning Kun.

Revan is powerful, knowledgeable and versatile enough that both the Force round and the all-out round could go either way if Kun screws up. That said, I put more stock in Kun's more unorthodox abilities to give him the edge.

So I take it you dont subscribe to the Malak quote?

Eh, not particularly. Decaf in particular has made convincing enough arguments against it over the years that I don't really believe it, and I find the quote quite sketchy in the grand scheme of things, given Kun's hype and feats. I'm open to changing my mind on that, though.

What arguments in particular has decaf made that you found so convincing?

KingofBlades wrote:What arguments in particular has decaf made that you found so convincing?

As a more general argument; his and others debating that the quote by itself shouldn't apply to Spirit Kun. I don't have a set placement for TOTJ Kun, however that quote should still bind that iteration of the character.