Revan REVISITED (2020) - Updated and Expanded

This 'assessment' is inspired by the following blog: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t668922.html

DISCLAIMER:

This debate have philosophical underpinnigs. On the face of it, Darth Nihilus give the impression of being a remarkably powerful Force-user because of his MUSCLE showings (the ALTER aspect). However, Darth Traya offer a deeper perspective in relation in which she explain that he is an ANOMALY and not like conventional Force-users (further elaboration in section 4 below).

Something is amiss, and this blog is an attempt to get to the bottom of it.

1. Revan's command of the Force

Following statement:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

- does not seem to be time-limited (i.e. Revan in the period of the Mandalorian Wars).

THAT is more of an attribution to Revan in the present (post-KoTOR II), because the CONTEXT surrounding the accolade is that of Lord Scourge being under influence of Revan. No matter the interpretation, the accolade in focus have MERIT to it as this blog will establish below.

The term 'command of the Force' allude to an accomplishment with CONTROL and ALTER aspects in the mix (further elaboration in section 2 below). Revan had much raw power in him and could be the most competent, talented and learned Force-user of all who had interacted with Meetra Surik up to a certain point in time that is when she met Lord Scourge and the aforementioned quote indicate as much (see PURPLE highlights in it); emphasis on the ACTUALIZED power in comparison to that of others in this case.

ACTUALIZED power = demonstrated or implied proficiency in the aspects of SENSE, CONTROL and ALTER respectively, and potential combinations thereof.

Revan's 'command of the Force' could STILL be superior to that of Darth Nihilus back in the days of the MW endgame because he had become the most powerful Jedi of the era at this point in time anyways, and there were many impressive Jedi out there at the time; further elaboration in sections 3 and 4 below. And it was easy for Meetra to understand that Revan only got better since.

Revan (post-KoTOR II) is on another level in comparison to Revan (MW endgame) by the way; I will establish this fact below.

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2. RAW POWER and COMMAND OF THE FORCE (what is the point of it all?)

The term 'raw power' allude to an accomplishment without CONTROL in the mix. For instance:

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic - Deceived)

Consider following example:-

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

1) Revan intercepted those bolts, made sure that they would not touch Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge (drew them towards himself in full capacity), and continued to absorb their power in the process.

2) Revan then deflected those bolts back toward their source (i.e. Darth Nyriss).

Revan showcase a remarkable mix of CONTROL and ALTER aspects in this case.

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ANALOGY

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Jedi Master Yoda is particularly noted for demonstrating similar level of CONTROL and ALTER aspects:

Yoda is an immensely powerful Jedi who can control blue crackling Force lightning.

Taken from Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

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Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.

Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered.

"Even you, my old Master!"

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

Following revelation is important in relation:

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Yoda is immensely powerful and this is apparent from the fact that he is able to handle Force lightning with bare hands (he is certainly among the most powerful Jedi Masters).

And Revan (Reborn) have ACTUALIZED POWER on THAT level as well; his showings are self-explanatory in retrospect.

However, below is another interpretation of the same accomplishment:

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.

Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

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Emphasis mine. The LINE between 'raw power' and 'command of the Force' is a BLURRY one, particularly in relation to the perceived capability of the Force-user(s).

Therefore, the term 'command of the Force' allude to an accomplishment with CONTROL and ALTER aspects in the mix.

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3. Revan's growth in power in FOCUS

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STARTING POINT

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Revan show much promise in his early days:

"The Force flows through you like no student we have ever seen." - Jedi Master Vrook Lamar

The early life of the rebellious Revan is shrouded in mystery. What is known is that his power blooms during the Restoration under Jedi Master Kreia, whose controversial tutelage significantly impacts Revan's thinking. Revan eventually passes from Padawan to Jedi Knight, but he seeks out other masters to round out his education, including the Twi'lek Zhar Lestin, under whom Revan apprentices alongside another Jedi: his future Sith cohort Malak.

Had Revan be born a generation sooner, he might have been touted as the Jedi standard, but in light of war started by Exar Kun, Revan's boldness in writing wrongs meets with suspicion from a progressively conservative Jedi Council. These distinct Jedi ideologies collide when the Mandalorians invade the Republic.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

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The earliest facts recount Revan's promising affinity for the Force and his rise to become a Jedi. With his close friend Alek, Revan devoured knowledge with insatiable appetite under many Jedi Masters. Though Revan and Malak both earned the title of Jedi Knight, Revan's determination and pride sparked concern among the Jedi Council.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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Charismatic, powerful, and a respected Jedi, Revan would soon rally the Republic against a new enemy. Mandalorian Crusaders had begun conquering fringe worlds, but the Republic's response was halfhearted at best. Revan defied the Jedi Council's policy of restraint and argued a swift Republic intervention. Revan recruited Jedi and soldiers alike to his cause. Some called Revan a hero, others a brash crusader - but all soon referred to him as the Revanchist.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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Darth Vader+ at the conclusion of the Mandalorian Wars?

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By the time, Revan consider challenging and defeat Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat, he had become the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy:

Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

To give you some idea, one of the Jedi Masters of the time was Lucien Draay who is noted to be strong enough to challenge the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader in single combat and offer a good fight to either:

In the Star Wars Miniatures Game, Master Lucien Draay is the best "beatstick" available to the Old Republic faction. Lightsaber Block, Lightsaber Riposte, and Master of the Force 2 give him the ability to use both Lightsaber Block and Lightsaber Riposte against a single attack. Rounding out his anti-Sith Lord credentials, Draay has Lightsaber Duelist, giving him that much extra longevity against lightsaber-wielding maniacs: Only Count Dooku (Clone Strike) and Darth Revan (The Force Unleashed) manage a higher Defense against these foes. While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Taken from KOTOR Miniatures Preview - Master Lucien Draay

Lucien Draay was a gifted Force-user, strong in the Force, and able to tolerate powers of Haazen (Darth Haze in secret) while the latter was using a KRESH GAUNTLET to repel Lucien's moves, two times in a row. Please keep in mind that Haazen incapacitated scores of Jedi with a single blast of Force lightning subsequently, and killed many as well.



Lucien's defenses are formidable on their own, and when coupled with a KRESH GAUNTLET, he was able to tolerate Turbolaser firepower as well:



- and lived to tell the tale after that. Although, he did suffer serious injuries from the experience.

Further confirmation:

Together they went to confront Krynda Draay, the founder of the Jedi Covenant, and her son Lucien, Carrick's former Master. At the Draay mansion, Carrick discovered the real culprit: Krynda's aide Haazen, a fallen Jedi who had been manipulating the Covenant. As Lucien and Carrick dueled, Haazen used an override in the Republic Navy's weapon systems, intending to destroy the Jedi Temple and the Council.

At the last minute, Lucien overcame his anger, helped Carrick escape, then used Haazen's override to bombard Haazen's position instead. Haazen was killed; Lucien survived, suffering serious injuries. Zayne Carrick's name was cleared, and the Jedi Covenant was finished.

Taken from SWTOR codex entry (Galactic History 72: The Fall of Covenent)

Even though Lucien is/was THAT good, he is NOT counted among the strongest of his era regardless; some of his peers were relatively stronger (or more powerful).

Therefore, Revan (MW endgame), being at the APEX of the Jedi Order, could be a match for the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader at this point in time, or outfight each in a duel.

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EXPLORING DARK ARTS - Further growth in power

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Revan was now becoming well-versed in dark arts:

After a string of ruthless triumphs, Revan finally defeated the Mandalore to win the war. But the cost of success had already set Revan on the path to the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

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Finally, the Mandalorians had been routed. The Jedi generals Revan and Malak had killed Mandalore and hounded the remnants of the enemy fleet far beyond the boundaries of Republic space–and in so doing, performed terrible deeds and learned dark powers.

But there were darker days to come. During Revan's pursuit of the Mandalorians, he and Malak discovered the ancient Sith Empire hidden on Dromund Kaas. Realizing this Empire was the true threat to the Republic, Revan and Malak faced the Sith Emperor himself, intending to cut off the serpent's head–but the Emperor was too powerful. Overwhelmed by the Emperor's dark presence, they pledged themselves to his service.

Taken from SWTOR codex entry (The Galactic History 74: Revan and Malak Fall)

Only the Sith Emperor proved more powerful:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Nevertheless, even though the Revan was self-trained in dark arts, he was powerful and battle-hardened to the extent that he was deemed worthy of the DARTH title by the true Sith Empire:

Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission by the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge, an ancient space installation built more than 25,000 years earlier by the Rakata Infinite Empire.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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Darth Revan

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Revan proved his mettle once more, but now as a Dark Lord of the Sith:

As Darth Revan, he created his own Empire and nearly destroyed the Republic, before he was betrayed by Darth Malak - once his friend and ally Alek.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Darth Revan was thinking on a monumental level actually:

Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak by his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Darth Bane held ancient Sith such as Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Darth Revan in high regard:

The strength of numbers was a trap, one that snared all the great Dark Lords who had come before. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, each had been powerful.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Darth Revan constructed a holocron at some point to preserve his knowledge and findings. This is one of the most challenging constructs ever:

Scholars know that a holocron is a box of crystalline lattices, which are capable of housing near-infinite amounts of priceless data. These matrices can be aligned only through precise and exhausting application of the Force. A completed holocron can be accessed only by another Force-user. To navigate a holocron's secrets, one must speak to its gatekeeper - a holographic echo of the device's builder that retains a measure of the builder's spirit. Constructing a holocron can take months, and a single misstep can collapse the device into dust.

Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

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NOTE: Jedi Master Mace Windu noted that the Jedi have recovered many Sith holocrons but he did not realize that many of these were actually FAKE (Palpatine's observation; the Jedi are easily fooled). Authentic Sith holocrons are 'uncommon' given the fact that how difficult it is to create one, and chances of finding one are slim.

Darth Bane had much luck on his side as he discovered holocron of Darth Revan on Lehon, and found its contents to be overwhelming:

To Bane, it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible - so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master - that he doubted he would ever dare to use them . . .

And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Expanding on the bold part below:

Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at the time when the Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook

NOTE: Darth Revan's instructions 'motivated' Darth Bane to establish the Rule of Two, and also made it possible for the Bannite Sith to leapfrog the Brotherhood with TRUE knowledge of the dark side. However, a part of this knowledge was deemed too dangerous or risky to replicate by Darth Bane and possibly others. Nevertheless, Revan's Sith legacy indirectly facilitated the FALL of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order at some point in the future.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak had disagreements in time which eventually culminated into a duel between them and the outcome was grim for Darth Malak:

Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard. Returning the favor, Malak fires on Revan's flagship. Unaware that the Jedi have captured the traitor, Malak assumes the crown of the ruling Dark Lord, inheriting the empire.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

Darth Malak was however strong in the dark side, strong enough to endure THAT kind of injury and returned the favor in the form of his BETRAYAL when Darth Revan was preoccupied with a Jedi Strike Team led by the powerful Jedi Knight Bastila Shan, making it possible for the Jedi to capture Darth Revan while in comatose condition, and it took the combined might of the Jedi Council to mindwipe him but the effort was not entirely successful:

"Even the combined power of the Jedi Council couldn't keep your true identity buried forever, could it?" - Darth Malak

EXPANDED:-

Darth Revan and Darth Malak carved a path of destruction across Republic space. Backed by an endless armada built by the Star Forge, and aided by Revan's knowledge of Republic strategy, their victories were numerous and brutal. But after several years of triumphs, Revan's campaign would end abruptly in a Republic trap and Sith deception.

A Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan - and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith. Nearby, Darth Malak sensed the suddenly vulnerability of his Master and promptly exploited it. In a treacherous power grab, Malak bombarded Revan's ship to annihiliate his former friend and the Jedi forces on board. Believing Revan dead, Malak declared himself new ruler of the Sith Empire.

But Revan survived Malak's attack. Severly injured and clinging to his life, he was rescued by Bastila Shan, who transported the comatose Sith to the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. It was there that the Jedi healed not only Revan's wounded body, but the scars and traumas that wacked his mind. Their combined power erased Revan's memories of his dark past. Only a handful of Jedi knew that this innocent soldier had once been the powerful Sith Darth Revan.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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Revan (KoTOR endgame) - Further growth in power

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Revan (KoTOR endgame) became more powerful than before:

"You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord. I did not think that was possible." - Darth Malak

This is apparent from that fact that Revan boarded the Star Forge and fought his way to the respective positions of the corrupted Bastila Shan and Darth Malak and defeated each in separate encounters on the Star Forge:

Revan disabled the Star Forge's disruptor field to clear the path for an assault by the Republic fleet. As a massive space battle raged around the Star Forge, Revan boarded the station - but his progress was blocked by Bastila Shan, now corrupted as Malak's apprentice. Revan overpowered Bastila and saved her from Malak's insidious influence, thus restoring her to the path of the light side. Revan then confronted Darth Malak himself in a fierce duel, but Revan prevailed and finally defeated Darth Malak.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement is short and precise but the entire course of battle was filled with challenges that would have crippled a lesser individual. Revan first had to deal with an army of Star Forge's battle droids which Darth Malak expected to have overwhelmed any Jedi in the galaxy. Revan had to deal with another army subsequently encompassing numerous Dark Jedi and Sith apprentices, and he was able to fight his way through up to the position of Bastila.

Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.

Taken from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide

Not just that but she was able to draw on the power of the Star Forge to fuel her own in order to keep up with Revan but she was unable to defeat him still.

After redeeming Bastila, Revan had to face scores of Star Forge's battle droids once again but he was able to fight his way through to the position of Darth Malak himself who had also prepared himself for the inevitable:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

Taken from the Star Wars: Databank (Legends)

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"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!" - Darth Malak (Star Forge)

In spite of all that, Revan was able to defeat/kill Darth Malak in a "fierce duel."

It is 'safe' to assume that it would take more than the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader to PREVAIL under those set-of-circumstances. Revan's battlefield feats on the Star Forge are a testament to his incredible power and accomplishments as a warrior, and a topic of discussion throughout history (even Darth Plagueis commented on this development while addressing Palpatine about 'power').

Revan's NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force was however perceived as a THREAT to the sanctity of the Jedi Order by the Jedi Council of the time, and he was discouraged from tutoring a new generation of Jedi:

In the first few weeks after Malak's defeat, when he was still being honored and feted as the savior of the galaxy, he had approached the Council with an offer to share his new understanding of the Force with the other members of the Order.

He had expected some resistance, of course. The Council was stuck in the old ways. They didn't understand that the Force was alive. They couldn't accept that it had evolved beyond their staid teachings. Yet he had been unprepared for the sheer hostility of the Council's reaction.

Not only did they reject his offer, but a handful of Councilors had wanted to banish him from the Order. Fortunately, cooler heads had prevailed.

Revan was a hero. The tale of his redemption and return to the light had spread throughout the galaxy … though the sordid details of how the Jedi had stripped away his identity had been carefully excised. The wiser members of the Council understood that the legend of Revan was far too valuable to throw away simply because they no longer had any use for the man himself.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

It was an ERROR that would prove too costly for the Jedi Order because the Jedi Civil War was far from over:

Had Revan returned to face this new threat, Bastila would have eagerly fought by his side. Together they might have been able to quell the uprising, ending it before the horrors of war enveloped the Republic and millions lost their lives. But she had heard nothing of her husband since he had set off with Canderous four years earlier.

Alone, she dared not challenge Darth Traya and her followers. Instead, she had focused on keeping her son alive. It had been the Exile—Meetra Surik—who had taken up the fight against the rogue Jedi. Three years after Revan's unsuccessful attempt to locate her, she had emerged on her own to oppose and eventually defeat Darth Traya. Like Revan before her, she became the savior of the galaxy. And also as with Revan, there were many who felt her recent actions could not atone for the sins of her past.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Revan and Bastila were capable of addressing the threat of the Sith Triumvirate, but Revan was not there to help her in this regard. But a new savior emerged to address the threat (i.e. the former Jedi Exile Meetra Surik).

Unfortunately for Bastila, Revan was still in search for 'answers' about his past because of his TROUBLING VISIONS, but his Starship was shot down on NATHEMA and he was held in captivity by the true Sith for several years since. However, thanks in part to Meetra, he was able to figure out his past in full capacity:

The object was wrapped in cloth. It was clearly metal, and there was something oddly familiar about it.

"You spoke with Bastila?" he asked. "You saw her?"

Meetra nodded. "And your son. They're both well."

Revan smiled. His mind felt like it was floating blissfully away, but he wasn't sure if the euphoria was triggered by thoughts of his family or the drugs still working their way out of his system.

He unwrapped the cloth to reveal the masked helmet he had worn during his campaigns against the Mandalorians and the Republic. In an instant, all his lost memories came flooding back to him.

A million images—years upon years of forgotten people, places, and events—flooded his consciousness simultaneously. In his weakened state it was too much to take. As his brain went into sensory overload, his body went limp.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

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Revan (Reborn) - YODA TIER

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From THAT experience, Revan (Reborn) emerged, and he utterly destroyed a member of the Dark Council Darth Nyriss in a fight who had singlehandedly brought both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik to their knees earlier. Members of the Dark Council are/were expected to be 'among' the powerful Sith in the galaxy at any point in time on average:

In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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While the undying Emperor serves as the unquestioned leader of the Empire, the twelve members of the Dark Council oversee the daily workings of their vast civilization and speak in the Emperor's name. Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy; to hold a seat on the council is the highest honor and the greatest position of influence a Sith can attain.

Taken from SWTOR codex entry (The Dark Council)

But Revan (Reborn) is/was in the league of Yoda by any measure (see above), with abilities that were 'second-to-none' to that of any Jedi throughout the history of the Old Republic and beyond:

He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

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Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

THAT is something that you can expect from a Yoda TIER Force-user and not any less. Revan posit a LEGITIMATE threat to the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.

Revan (Reborn) was FAR MORE powerful in comparison to what he used to be back in the days of Revan (MW endgame):

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn't even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Please keep in mind the possibility that Revan (MW endgame) could be a match for the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader as noted above. However, Revan (Reborn) is on another level in comparison to both much like Yoda.

It shall be noted that Revan's powers and assassination efforts pushed the Sith Emperor to create Voices (i.e. body hopping):

The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia

THAT is significant.

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Revan (SWTOR) - CHEATING DEATH

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Revan's second attempt to assassinate the Sith Emperor also ended in failure (the chances were LOW but betrayal of Lord Scourge reduced the odds to NIL), and his subsequent imprisonment lasted 3 centuries:

Revan was imprisoned on the stormy world of Dromund Kaas. Though he attempted to escape and assassinate the Emperor, Revan's mission ended in failure when his unlikely ally - the Sith Lord Scourge - turned on him. Revan's next prison was hidden deep within the dangerous Maelstrom Nabula. Revan would remain there for centuries, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy while the Emperor probed his mind for the Republic's weaknesses.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Meetra's Force Spirit made it possible for Revan to endure such an ordeal:

Meetra could sense his suffering. When she had died, she had not become one with the Force. Loyal to the end, her spirit had remained with Revan, an invisible presence hovering just outside his cell.

She couldn't speak with him; whatever arcane Sith sorcery the Emperor had used to bind Revan in his cell made that impossible. She doubted Revan was even aware she was there. Yet even though she couldn't communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment.

As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war. Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

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Revan endured the Emperor's grueling interrogations for centuries. While he fought from captivity to delay Emperor's assault against the Republic, Revan's wife Bastila grew old and passed away, though their child would breed a long line of descendants. When the Empire launched the Great War against the Republic, Revan used his connection to the Emperor to manipulate the Sith Lord into ending the conflict in a temporary truce - saving millions of lives in the process. It was during this peace that a Republic strike team finally rescued Revan, but years spent in Emperor's presence had shaken the Jedi's mind. Revan shared his insights into the Emperor with the new Jedi Council and stuck out on one last journey.

Revan's final fate is lost to history. After sacrificing sanity and years of his life to safeguard the Republic from the Emperor, Revan once again fall prey to the tragic flaw that previously drove him to spark the Jedi Civil War. His last recorded location was the Foundry, an ancient installation where he planned to raise a massive droid army to annihilate the Empire once and for all. Revan's plot was ultimately defeated by an Imperial strike team send to claim the Foundry for the Empire.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Revan (SWTOR) was not in good shape and frame of mind, but he still provided substantial fight to the Sith strike team dispatched to assassinate him on the Foundary:

"You must not underestimate the Republic defenses, or the Foundry's Jedi Master. He is the greatest threat." - Darth Malgus



During the course of the battle, following caption REVAN HAS BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE is noticed repeatedly. This disclosure allude to the fact that while the Sith strike team was attempting to strike him down, Revan had the ability to cheat death as of late, and therefore, such efforts were in vain.

And THAT is exactly what transpire at the end of the fight.

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Revan (Shadow of Revan) - ENTITY (reanimated corpse with alter-conscious)

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Revan in his natural form as a member of the Jedi Order (from birth to the Foundry) vs. his anomalous re-animated corpse (Shadow of Revan expansion), are entirely different beasts in my view.

LINK: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3086-does-revan-scale-from-his-sor-feats

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Revan's natural peak is the Revan Reborn incarnation with a 'command of the Force' at this stage that make him an OUTLIER as a Force-user with only the Sith Emperor being his chief rival and superior in the known galaxy at the time. He does not have a peer in the Jedi Order even in the future until Jedi Master Yoda.

The legendary Jedi Consular who make her mark in the era of Satele Shan wield incredible power early on but sacrifices much of it while addressing the Dark Plague crisis and is bestowed the title of Barsen'thor for her sacrifice by the Jedi High Council of the time.

Although a celebrated hero and officially recognized as a Jedi Master after the events of KoTOR, Revan's post-KoTOR powers intimidated other Jedi Masters and he was forced into a SECLUDED lifestyle consequently (he was not allowed to mentor padawan(s) and not welcomed in the Jedi Temple to the extent of even having a say in its affairs).

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Revan as of the SWTOR (Shadow of Revan) is essentially a re-animated corpse which separated from Revan's original conscious while cheating death through sheer force of will and developed an alter-conscious of its own (i.e. driven by seething hatred for Tenebrae at this point in time). This is/was an ANOMALOUS development and the source of much disturbance in the Force, and the resultant ripples could be felt across the galaxy at the time. This was an unnatural existence of Revan and his powers approached new heights in this capacity due to sheer hatred in him but he was neither a Jedi and nor a Sith at this point. The re-animated Revan is/was logically and technically an ENTITY of a sort. The Republic and the Empire suspended their clashes for a while, joined hands, and assembled a strike team of some of the finest warriors in the galaxy to take on Revan in this form. This was an extraordinary political development, and Revan's spirit (original conscious) also reached out to the assembled strike team in order to undermine re-animated Revan during the ensuing confrontation.

Revan in his natural form as of the SWTOR (The Foundry flashpoint) was much easier to handle in a fight otherwise.

NOTE: The Sith Emperor was one of identities of the virtually immortal Force-user Tenebrae.

"Valkorion. Tenebrae. Vitiate. Emperor of the Sith. My low-born son has worn many masks." - Lord Dramath

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If the objective is to rank and evaluate Revan as a Jedi, he does not scale from his anomalous unnatural incarnation in this capacity. The Revan (Reborn) can still be counted among the most powerful Force-users ever (see above).

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4. But members of the Sith Triumvirate?

To be fair, Jedi Master Kriea uncovered teachings of Revan and Malak:

Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands. Their relentless pursuit virtually wiped out the Order, and only those few who managed to flee or hide survived.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

- and became FAR more powerful while being Darth Traya.

Darth Traya

Darth Traya (KoTOR II endgame) was able to dismiss and vanquish 3 well-known Jedi Masters including one of the most powerful (Vrook Lamar) in a fight in order to save the Jedi Exile (Meetra Surik) from potential execution.





THAT is one of the most powerful applications of telekinesis in the mythos, my friend. THAT is not something you see very often.

They were not some rank-and-file Jedi but well-known Jedi Masters of the time.

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place." - Bastila Shan

Let us take a look at the abilities of the Jedi Master Vrook Lamar for instance:



She was also capable of [one-shotting] a large group of Sith Assassins on Malachor V, and established firm superiority over Darth Sion at this point.



She was also stronger than the Jedi Exile incarnation of Meetra Surik (KoTOR II endgame):

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

THAT could be due to following factors:

1) Meetra was still a Wound in the Force at the time, and Darth Traya's impressive command of the formidable Force Drain application was of little use in this contest.

2) Meetra was somehow able to disarm Darth Traya as the duel progressed (i.e. cutting off her remaining hand), and the latter decided to make use of her vast telekinetic powers to wield multiple lightsabers against the Jedi.

3) Darth Traya was like a teacher to Meetra:

"You are greater than any I have ever trained." - Darth Traya

It is therefore unclear if Darth Traya allowed Meetra to strike her down in the end, or made a mistake; but one thing is clear that Meetra prevailed in this duel. Darth Traya versus Meetra Surik can be likened to the case of Anakin Skywalker versus Obi-Wan Kenobi to be honest. Therefore, difficult to evaluate.

Anyways, Meetra was unable to defeat Darth Nyriss in a duel even with support of Lord Scourge. And Revan (Reborn) was on another level in comparison to all three. Therefore, it is 'safe' to conclude that he was more powerful than Darth Traya at this point in time.

Darth Nihilus

"And it rules him, not the other way round, it has its own will, its own instincts." - Darth Traya

The aforementioned statement offers an alternative perspective of Darth Nihilus; that he is not an impressive Force-user with unparalleled 'command of the Force' in conventional sense or something on these lines.

Darth Nihilus attempted to mitigate his condition by consuming others:

Victim of the Mandalorian Wars, the man who became Nihilus lost everything: his possessions, his loved ones, and the will to live. While illness cannibalizes his body, a vast emptiness devours his humanity. Then, when all seems lost, he discovers that his emptiness hungered. The first time, he fed it unconsciously. Draining another being's life is frightening, nauseating, but for a euphoric moment, the memories, the illness, and the hunger disappeared.

But it proves insatiable. The more he indulges it, the shorter the satisfaction lasts and the more severe the hunger becomes. He begins feeding relentlessly, still always craving. Existence again becomes unbearable, but then hope materializes. A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound through the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

- but it continued to worsen with each attempt and this cycle continued to take a toll on his body until it crumbled eventually:

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-darining gift to radical heights - so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. However, as Nihilus greedly consumes entire planets's life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

Darth Nihilus managed to transfer his consciousness to his clothing lest he loose it due to collapse of his body and fall apart consequently (i.e. cheated death in this manner):

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!" - Darth Krayt

Emphasis mine. Darth Nihilus's anomalic condition became an entity of its own, and also the source of his power (the will behind his power is a primal thing), but the loop effect was continous (And it devours him as he devours others). This dynamic could not last for indefinite period however because Darth Nihilus does not have IMMORTALITY; his condition will take a toll on his 'preserved essence' as well and it will be extinguished:

Q: How can anyone have that kind of power?

"Power? Do you think so?

You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing.

And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." - Darth Traya

Darth Nihilus was more like a 'weapon of mass destruction', but on a timer. He was powerful but in a different way than natural Force-users (a being of pure hunger and dark side power), with the exception of the Sith Emperor of-course:

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

Raken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Darth Nihilus made the Ravager airborne while on Malachor V - an environment unusually strong in the dark side:



Once made airborne, Darth Nihilus developed a powerful bond with the Ravager and could hold it together in the following manner:

"Nihilus: Some poetic license was taken with the Ravager – I mostly wanted Nihilus to have a ghost ship in keeping with his personality. It wouldn't immediately fall apart without Nihilus, but his presence there and his ties to it make minor changes and upkeeps to its function and hull that keep it intact – if barely. When killed, the ship would slowly begin to fall apart into wreckage, although it's not held together by any sort of super Telekinesis." - Chris Avellone

Above all, Darth Nihilus had utterly SPOOKED Darth Traya since he had sapped her powers in a double-cross before leaving Malachor V for good, therefore, her hype. She recovered her powers via Meetra:

As Sion and Nihilus unwittingly aid her by carrying out a massive assassination campaign against the Jedi, Traya seeks the Jedi Exile, Revan's old general, who had been severed from the Force. Together forging a telepathic link, they revitalize their Force connections.

Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

Although, it is hinted that Revan (post-KoTOR) and Bastila (post-KoTOR) could address the menace of the Sith Triumvirate while working side-by-side at an early stage (see above); Revan's NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force would have come in handy...

Nevertheless, following revelation:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn’t hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

- make sense when taken in the context of his ACTUALIZED POWER at the time. Revan's 'command of the Force' could STILL be superior to that of Darth Nihilus back in the days of the MW endgame because he had become the most powerful Jedi of the era at this point in time anyways (see above), and there were many impressive Jedi out there at the time. And it was easy for Meetra to understand that Revan only got better from here.

Revan (post-KoTOR) had a NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force, and his raw power was 'approaching' Yoda TIER as well. Therefore, he wasn't short on the MUSCLE aspect either.

Likewise:

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/s...1790132224?s=20

My assessment align with that of Chris Avellone to large extent (Revan vs. Darth Vader part in particular); although, to be fair to Darth Nihilus, he could kill/consume 'any' (natural) Force-user given his powers and unprecedented command of the Force Drain. Although, Darth Vader could render himself immune to the effects of Force Drain and/or its derivatives for a short period of time (ambiguity factor), this might not be much of a help to him when up against Darth Nihilus whose mere presence had a detrimental effect on those near him and he is very likely to make heavy use of these powers to his advantage even in combative situations. Darth Nihilus is/was very strong in other applications as well including his ability to 'immobilize' opponent(s) and Telekinetic applications. Therefore, he could find a way to undermine Darth Vader in single combat until latter's defenses against Force Drain falter.

Below is a footage showing Darth Nihilus in a fight (cut-content of KoTOR II):-



Although, not official, it does show what Darth Nihilus could do in a fight in which he was not circumstantially compromised. He [one-shotted] other individuals who stood nearby and utterly dominated Darth Sion in 'any' scenario. In one of the cut-scenes, Darth Sion [one-shotted] a Jedi survivor in an encounter. Therefore, a degree of SCALING is shown as well.

5. Revan versus Darth Nihilus

Assuming Revan (Reborn):

Revan (Reborn) was packing 'surprises' of his own, and only the Sith Emperor outgunned him in combative situations. The Sith Emperor had [one-shotted] a rebellious Dark Council before, such was the measure of his power.

For now; I would say that if Revan make the first move, he is likely to dictate the course of the battle (vs. Darth Nihilus) and prevail. However, opposite can also happen. Therefore, this one is a close call in my view.

Assuming unnatural Revan (Shadow of Revan):

The unnatural form of Revan is beyond Darth Nihilus whatsoever; even the latter's greatest power won't make much difference in this case.

Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack. Upon successful completion, [Revan] deals massive damage to enemies within 1km. Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan

The Machine Core is an arcane superweapon designed to do what Darth Nihilus and Tenebrae (Vitiate) were infamous for doing respectively:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

Taken from SWTOR codex entry (The Death of a World)

However, during the course of battle with an unsually large strike team encompassing some of the most powerful Force-users ever:



- the unnatural Revan suffered a major backlash while attempting to channel the power of The Machine Core into a single attack in order to eradicate his enemies:

[REVAN HAS] SUFFERED A POWERFUL BACKLASH WHILE CHANNELING AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF FORCE ENERGY.

And;

THE MACHINE CORE HAS BEEN RENDERED CRITICALLY UNSTABLE. IT IS NOW A VIOLENT MAELSTROM OF TWISTED FORCE ESSENCE, INDISCRIMINATELY STRIPPING THE LIFE FORCE FROM EVERYTHING IN THE VICINITY.

However, the unnatural Revan continued to offer resistance afterwards....

Revan's spirit also joined the protagonists to undermine the unnatural Revan:

"I am with you. Be strong . . . I am doing all that I can. I only hope this will be enough . . . Brace yourself . . . Do not let him."

Great work!
Just a point where I disagree: Draay only survived the bombing of his Coruscant's estate because he was holding the Kresh gauntlet, not on his own power.

xolthol wrote:Great work!
Just a point where I disagree: Draay only survived the bombing of his Coruscant's estate because he was holding the Kresh gauntlet, not on his own power.

Thanks.

Lucien Draay was able to tolerate powers of Haazen while the latter was using a KRESH GAUNTLET to repel his moves, two times in a row. Please keep in mind that Haazen incapacitated scores of Jedi with a single blast of Force lightning subsequently.

Lucien's defenses are formidable on their own, and when coupled with a KRESH GAUNTLET, he was able to tolerate Turbolaser firepower as well. He did suffer extensive injuries though.

i guess i just have one complaint- im pretty sure u know this, but lucien giving bane and vader a challenge isnt exatcly what that quote says, nor is it exactly what it implies. a challenge is what dooku gave yoda. a good fight is much less impressive, and far more decisive. secondly, i think the quote speaks of what would happen in a duel, not in an all out fight (the quote says the words 'lightsaber' and 'duelist' a few times), so it wouldnt even mean that revan is as good of a duelist as lucien is. only that he is more powerful.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i guess i just have one complaint- im pretty sure u know this, but lucien giving bane and vader a challenge isnt exatcly what that quote says, nor is it exactly what it implies. a challenge is what dooku gave yoda. a good fight is much less impressive, and far more decisive. secondly, i think the quote speaks of what would happen in a duel, not in an all out fight (the quote says the words 'lightsaber' and 'duelist' a few times), so it wouldnt even mean that revan is as good of a duelist as lucien is. only that he is more powerful.

Thanks for your feedback.

I think that that revelation can be taken in all-out context as well. Lucien Draay was a powerful Jedi Master and he was able to withstand powers of Haazen while the latter was employing a Kressh Gauntlet for the needful. Haazen was very powerful in this capacity, he had taken over the controls of the Republic naval forces above the planet by force and was using them to deliver Turbolaser firepower in any location he wanted to, all the while he was on the surface and killed and/or incapacitated many Jedi while confronting Lucien Draay, and separately. Haazen was representative of the fact that even a subpar Force-user could transition into a powerhouse with use of Sith artifacts.

Anyways, I have adjusted the hype of Revan (MW endgame) in view of your feedback to this:

Therefore, Revan (MW endgame), being at the APEX of the Jedi Order, could be a match for the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader at this point in time, or outfight each in a duel.

I think that is a realistic take for all. There would be noticeable disparity between Lucien Draay and Revan.

Revan was very effective in a lightsaber duel as well due to his Battle Precognition talent which was superior to that of Echani. A lightsaber duel is more complex than a matter of technical skills; a Force-user's 'command of the Force' might play a vital role in shaping the course of one.

u do know that bane in the first novel could out duel someone he considers to be more skilled than revan, correct?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:u do know that bane in the first novel could out duel someone he considers to be more skilled than revan, correct?

Darth Bane could not out-duel Lord Kas'im, the duel concluded in the following manner:

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi’lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing.

He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.

On the landing high above Kas'im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.

"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don't live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Darth Bane used the environment to his advantage, to defeat Lord Kas'im.

And as I have pointed out before, a lightsaber duel is more complex than a matter of technical skills; a Force-user's 'command of the Force' might play a vital role in shaping the course of one. This much is made apparent even in the case of Darth Bane vs. Lord Kas'im:

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Revan's 'command of the Force' would be far ahead than that of Lord Kas'im. What do you think would be the outcome in this case?

"It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him." - Brianna

That is the point, my friend.

That is exactly what happened when Revan exchanged blows with the Imperial Guard:

Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise.

Taken from SWTOR codex entry (The Imperial Guard)

Not only that, the Imperial Guard share a connection with the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae), and when stationed near him, they are able to draw on his power to render themselves virtually immune to Force powers and augment their dueling skills.

Revan's dueling style is such that he is able to incorporate Force powers into his moves. However, he failed to affect the Imperial Guard with his Force powers (courtesy of the Sith Emperor), but even then Revan was able to outduel one in short order because his Battle Precognition is just that good.

Revan will outduel Lord Kas'im no matter what.

i wish u would post the whole fight, since im not talking about how he defeated kasim, but how he could duel with him, but regardless, they still fought evenly (edge to one of them or not). before kasim even went all out against him, bane already thought that he was more skilled than revan, so my point still stands. and if u want to say that the force matters, yeah, of course it does. i dont know how skilled abeloth is with a saber, but i can safely say that maybe 2 people have a chance of dueling her without being stomped simply because she is so strong in the force, which makes her strong, fast, gives her even more advanced precog, etc. doesnt make her skilled tho.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i wish u would post the whole fight, since im not talking about how he defeated kasim, but how he could duel with him, but regardless, they still fought evenly (edge to one of them or not). before kasim even went all out against him, bane already thought that he was more skilled than revan, so my point still stands. and if u want to say that the force matters, yeah, of course it does. i dont know how skilled abeloth is with a saber, but i can safely say that maybe 2 people have a chance of dueling her without being stomped simply because she is so strong in the force, which makes her strong, fast, gives her even more advanced precog, etc. doesnt make her skilled tho.

Darth Bane did not explicitly compare Lord Kas'im to Darth Revan in this capacity; Darth Bane however FELT that Lord Kas'im was one of the greatest Lightsaber duelists ever, probably the greatest. However, this was a 'perception' dictated by heightened emotions in the heat of the battle (hardly definitive).

Darth Revan's Sith Holocron wasn't about teaching how to be a superior Lightsaber duelist but a treasuretrove of knowledge about dark side abilities and Sith philosophy.

Even if I give 'your contention' the benefit of doubt and 'assume' that Lord Kas'im might be more skilled with a Lightsaber than Darth Revan; this still does not invalidate 'my contention' that Darth Revan by virtue of his vastly superior command of the Force, would outduel Lord Kas'im no matter what. The highlighted part of your statement is exactly what I am trying to convey here, and therefore, both of us are on the same page (more or less) in this case.

In my blog, I am comparing two characters in the ALL-OUT context. I do not like to compartmentalize in this matter because a Lightsaber duel is not a detached affair from one's 'command of the Force' and limited only to the technical aspects of it.

Tenebrae never showed much interest in honing his skills with a Lightsaber, but when he picked one, he was able to exchange blows with even the likes of Hero of Tython on equal footing and the latter is easily 'among' the finest swordsmen of the Jedi Order like ever. Tenebrae could simply transform a Lightsaber into an extension of his will and do the needful, and nobody was able to chop off one of his hands to say the least.

tenebrea, i believe, was simply an extremely skilled force, and in the SW universe itself, the more skilled one is with the force, and the higher his/her connection, the more aptitude one has with a saber. BUT just being strong in the force doesnt simply make that happen. otherwise, anakin in ATOC, after 10 or so years of training, should have surpassed more or less every duelist around, but we know this to not be the case. there is mental fortitude, actual training, experience, skill with the force in many different categories (enhancement, precog, basic sensing). this is why yoda, the weaker being and likely less skilled force user, could outduel sheev, regardless of his force advantages. and bane, iirc, crushed kasim under revan's temple (the place where his holocron was hidden, that is), and didnt simply use the force in their duel to outfight him. quite different. he had an upper hand because of the force and the way he used it, but if it werent for that, the duel wouldnt have lasted as long as it did. plus, i dont remember kasim even using the force in any offensive way like bane did. had he done that, the fight couldve ended differently.