16 BBY Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Tyranus

I'm not trying to misconstruct the events - I just watched ROTS and came to a conclusion based on the evidence right in front of my eyes, then linked my findings to my dear friend LOTL, who has some trouble accepting reality.

I can accept reality alright. I accept that Obi Wan in the end of the movie completely stomps the Count given his contention with an Anakin that is clearly shown to be more powerful, stronger and a better combatant in every way than the Anakin that made Dooku into a complete clown on the IH. The same Anakin who George Lucas has openly claim that he is more powerful and then has the fastest and most intense visual combat scene in his movies so it is a complete non brainer that Obi Wan who can not only match Anakin physically but also telekinetically, can easily stomp the Count

Oh wait? What was that? Anakin didn't have a bath that morning? His potentially actualized potential power that is actualized but not really actualized because it is a manifestation of his potential power that was initially actualized but is yet only potential power which has not manifested into actualized power? I guess Anakin is not equal to Obi Wan then.

I mean, certainly that was what George wanted to conclude for millions of people watching the movies right? Which is why you have insane fan theories all over Youtube explaining Obi Wan's loss to Count Dooku from form and technique, to the crazy notion that Palpatine influenced the fight lowering Obi Wan's force shield? Not only Youtube though, it is also on forums that have limited knowledge of the lore like Quora, Scifistackexchange, reddit etc.

Here is what I get when I type on Google:

why did obi wan lose to Dooku

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/9jj0g0/star_wars_how_did_obiwan_lose_to_dooku_in_episode/
https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-fight-between-dooku-and-obi-wan-explained.50038317/
https://aminoapps.com/c/star-wars/page/blog/in-rots-how-did-obi-wan-defeat-anakin-when-he-couldnt-defeat-dooku-in-the-beginning-of-the-film/2NFN_uMk24oJgDWB2JJm7LQBx7Kd14
https://www.quora.com/If-Anakin-could-beat-Count-Dooku-then-why-did-he-lose-to-Obi-Wan

This is what immediately pops when I type the command on Google. I am "not" including Youtube on this as that would be a bit too much for you here. Nor have I gone in depth and brought out every site that has people make all types of rationalizations for Obi Wan. It would also be a bit too much.
 
Barring a small percentage of people, most have some or the other rationalization for Obi Wan. Now, I believe Lucas is not the best director. His editing is choppy and the pacing is also flawed. Not to mention communication among people in the movie. But the one thing he is a genius at is conveying what he wants to through symbolism or tone. Now, the above google results are what I got by just typing "why did Obi Wan lose to Count Dooku" on google.

Most of those people have not said "Dooku is just better than Obi Wan" if it was so evident to people. Or meant to be. I would bring up the people from my inner circle who have just casually seen the movies and have all said that Obi Wan is obviously better than Dooku because it is anecdotal evidence. Not provable. Here however the evidence is there for all to see.

Forget about the majority, if even 50% of the people who watch the movies think that there is a rationalization for Obi Wan that is not the fact that Dooku is better than him then this attempt to intent, which is quite honestly the funniest argument I have seen in recent times is outright wrong. Reason being that these 50% of the people too have watched the movies and have concluded differently than you. Of the other 50%, a sizable fraction have skill, form, and technique, with better experience as the reason Dooku wins( not power). Only a very small fraction have Dooku winning because he is more powerful. I am well aware because I have scoured every Obi Wan/Anakin/Count forum, news article, interview, website for many years religiously. You don't have to take my word for it though, feel free to look for yourself too.

The main point being, a huge proportion of people don't look at the movies the way you do. Even IU, there is nothing indicating any type of big gap. Obi Wan being tooled by being caught off guard in a team fight is a feature that has played out against Ventress multiple times in ways worse than what Dooku has pulled off hence, employing that to make him look bad in the Dooku fight is laughable to some of us who actually have knowledge about the lore

To people looking for an actual reason why Obi Wan lost to the Count:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

I suggest sticking to IU evidence rather than employing selective intent and then wriggling like crazy when the topic of Dooku being thrown around like a ragdoll by Opress or Palpatine choking him from across the galaxy for an abnormal amount of time is brought to the picture

Damn, good to see you jump into the discussion again, LOTL. I hope to get a response out today, and if not, you'll have one later in the week.

NotAA3 wrote:@BoD

I have in the past, as have several other users.

And unfortunately, they were all wrong.   

^^^^^
This is the mark of a champion.

LOTL wrote: I mean, certainly that was what George wanted to conclude for millions of people watching the movies right? Which is why you have insane fan theories all over Youtube explaining Obi Wan's loss to Count Dooku from form and technique, to the crazy notion that Palpatine influenced the fight lowering Obi Wan's force shield? Not only Youtube though, it is also on forums that have limited knowledge of the lore like Quora, Scifistackexchange, reddit etc. 

This theory is absolutely correct 

There’s no basis to suspect EnofRotS Kenobi is any better than boRotS.

OT: No.

Leaning Dooku.

@LOTL

I can accept reality alright.

That seems highly suspect.

I accept that Obi Wan in the end of the movie completely stomps the Count given his contention with an Anakin that is clearly shown to be more powerful, stronger and a better combatant in every way than the Anakin that made Dooku into a complete clown on the IH.

Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context.

Kenobi:

-Has unique knowledge of Anakin's fighting style
-Has a form that's ideal for energy conservation
-Starts the fight with a full tank of Force Reserves
-Is facing an Anakin who is having trouble with his metaphorical "dragon" again

Dooku:

-Has no unique knowledge of Anakin's style
-Has a form that struggles against Djem So
-Starts the fight already exhausted/drained of reserves
-Is facing an Anakin whose metaphorical "dragon" does nothing to hinder him

I shouldn't need to explain this to you - it's not rocket science - but the context of both fights was completely different. On paper, there is an "enormous" gap between Kenobi and Anakin, and Kenobi was sure he was going to die even with his unique advantages - the disparity is arguably worthy of a Stover!description akin to Anakin vs Dooku (knowledge of the Force is a joke, and all that). The comparison certainly does not paint a "stomp" gap between Kenobi and Dooku, lol. To unpack some of what I said above, and put it into context:

-Dooku already being tired/exhausted means he'd burn out much quicker - a possible explanation for his incredibly swift loss. It's certainly plausible that had he been duelling Anakin with full reserves he'd have lasted substantially longer.

-Dooku's main struggle was matching Anakin's strength - that's why he was expending so much energy. Kenobi being able to "counter Anakin’s attack(s)" while "hardly having to think", due to his unique knowledge of Anakin's fighting style, means he can devote greater amounts of Force energy to not buckling under Anakin's strength, and lessen the amount of Force Energy he uses up on his speed and precognition.

-Continuing from the previous point, Kenobi's form is far better suited to energy conservation than Dooku's (in fact, Dooku is an 80-year-old man with poor stamina and utilises a form that is completely unsuitable for dealing with a strength-based fighter like Anakin), and thus, all these unique advantages which allow him to deal with Anakin's vast on-paper superiority perfectly play into maximizing the amount of time the engagement goes on for.

-Anakin's mental state is self-explanatory: there's lots of evidence to affirm a negative mindset hindering Force Users combatively.

Considering all of the above, it's not hard to see why Kenobi did far better than Dooku against Anakin - the two fights don't necessitate superiority on Kenobi's part, let alone a "stomp" gap between the two.

The same Anakin who George Lucas has openly claim that he is more powerful and then has the fastest and most intense visual combat scene in his movies

Anakin certainly is more powerful, but that's not what is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether his mental state impaired his ability to effectively utilise that power, and to that, I'd say: yes, it did.

As for the speed of the choreography, you have no proof that it's reflective of intent, and unless you can substantiate such, I won't buy into the idea. Moreover, if you want to try and apply intent here, you surely have to acknowledge that Lucas probably didn't write ROTS with the intent that Kenobi can stomp Dooku, lol.

so it is a complete non brainer that Obi Wan who can not only match Anakin physically but also telekinetically, can easily stomp the Count

Physically? Addressed.

Telekinetically? Uh, if you're referring to the TK clash, that's just Kenobi pushing and Anakin blocking - he isn't "matching" anything, because Anakin isn't even attacking him.

Oh wait? What was that? Anakin didn't have a bath that morning? His potentially actualized potential power that is actualized but not really actualized because it is a manifestation of his potential power that was initially actualized but is yet only potential power which has not manifested into actualized power? I guess Anakin is not equal to Obi Wan then.

The underlined is the most intelligent thing you've said thus far. Anyway, in regards to the rest, I honestly don't see how you read these passages...

IH:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh I get it, now and disovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

[...]

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

[...]

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

[...]

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind had blinded him and left flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here, now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

Mustafar:

He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy  ooze that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through his guts ...

Almost as though he was still afraid ...

She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.

He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.

All things die.

Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.

Now its poison chilled him to the bone.

Even stars burn out.

He shook himself again and strode towards the holocomm. He would talk to his Master.

Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.

...and assume that Anakin has the same strength in both fights. You're welcome to your opinion, though, I guess.

I mean, certainly that was what George wanted to conclude for millions of people watching the movies right? Which is why you have insane fan theories all over Youtube explaining Obi Wan's loss to Count Dooku from form and technique, to the crazy notion that Palpatine influenced the fight lowering Obi Wan's force shield? Not only Youtube though, it is also on forums that have limited knowledge of the lore like Quora, Scifistackexchange, reddit etc.

This is what immediately pops when I type the command on Google. I am "not" including Youtube on this as that would be a bit too much for you here. Nor have I gone in depth and brought out every site that has people make all types of rationalizations for Obi Wan. It would also be a bit too much.

Barring a small percentage of people, most have some or the other rationalization for Obi Wan.   Now, I believe Lucas is not the best director. His editing is choppy and the pacing is also flawed. Not to mention communication among people in the movie. But the one thing he is a genius at is conveying what he wants to through symbolism or tone. Now, the above google results are what I got by just typing "why did Obi Wan lose to Count Dooku" on google.

Most of those people have not said "Dooku is just better than Obi Wan" if it was so evident to people. Or meant to be. I would bring up the people from my inner circle who have just casually seen the movies and have all said that Obi Wan is obviously better than Dooku because it is anecdotal evidence. Not provable. Here however the evidence is there for all to see.

Forget about the majority, if even 50% of the people who watch the movies think that there is a rationalization for Obi Wan that is not the fact that Dooku is better than him then this attempt to intent, which is quite honestly the funniest argument I have seen in recent times is outright wrong. Reason being that these 50% of the people too have watched the movies and have concluded differently than you. Of the other 50%, a sizable fraction have skill, form, and technique, with better experience as the reason Dooku wins( not power). Only a very small fraction have Dooku winning because he is more powerful. I am well aware because I have scoured every Obi Wan/Anakin/Count forum, news article, interview, website for many years religiously. You don't have to take my word for it though, feel free to look for yourself too.

Uh, LOTL, have I lost you? I never employed intent once in my original post, I simply stated that I watched ROTS, came to a conclusion and linked my findings to you: a single clip. All of your ranting here is predicated on a false premise... and thus I'm not going to address any of it. Not that I care what an army of mini-you's and Kenobi wankers who are sad their boy got trounced think: some people take retarded conclusions away from media because they can't handle reality - there's nothing I can do about that. You know what, why don't you - instead of Googling "why did Obi-Wan lose to Dooku" - Google "denial definition", you might find it... educational.

The main point being, a huge proportion of people don't look at the movies the way you do. Even IU, there is nothing indicating any type of big gap.

It's a good thing I didn't argue for a big gap then.

Obi Wan being tooled by being caught off guard in a team fight is a feature that has played out against Ventress multiple times in ways worse than what Dooku has pulled off hence, employing that to make him look bad in the Dooku fight is laughable to some of us who actually have knowledge about the lore

I'd like to see the instances you're referring to, but the main difference off the top of my head is that Ventress never managed to incap Kenobi with TK (from what I recall), Dooku actually knocked him out.

To people looking for an actual reason why Obi Wan lost to the Count:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

Well, I must say... the "actual reason" is very disappointing. Dooku's familiarity with Kenobi's form is something that he will possess in every hypothetical encounter against the latter, and a constant that he can always utilise to his advantage. If Kenobi's form is the reason he lost then why does the outcome change for this thread?

I suggest sticking to IU evidence rather than employing selective intent

Well, I didn't employ intent, but that aside:

and then wriggling like crazy when the topic of Dooku being thrown around like a ragdoll by Opress or Palpatine choking him from across the galaxy for an abnormal amount of time is brought to the picture

In the former instance Savage:

-Failed to incapacitate him
-Only managed to grab him in the first place via capitalising on a distraction (Ventress)

vs

-Dooku actually incapping Kenobi
-Dooku legitimately off-balancing Kenobi and following through on the opening

Apt comparison, pls.

---

In the latter instance:

-Dooku was - once again - taken by surprise
-There's no reason to assume he even tried to resist when Palpatine had him in the choke

vs

-Dooku legitimately off-balancing Kenobi and following through on the opening
-Kenobi actually attempting to resist, but failing to break the hold

Apt comparison, pls.

---

So, let's recap LOTL:

-Dooku and Kenobi are both massively inferior to Anakin
-The latter did better than the former against Anakin due to a difference in circumstances
-When the two actually fought each other Kenobi got force-rolled
-Kenobi's form is constant across all encounters
-I never once argued for authorial intent

Oh, and as a final point:

Spoiler:

Latham2000 wrote:

The Count wins, as always

O-Siri wrote:There’s no basis to suspect EnofRotS Kenobi is any better than boRotS.

OT: No.

This is legends right?

If we accept traya's musings on how confrontation -> power growth during kotor 2 as true, there's a basis there I think.

Yes this is Legends.

While I'll get to the technicalities later, one thing has to be clear, at this point, I am really thinking you have no idea what you have posted or any semblance of sequence to your points so this is to clear your head too along with anyone reading your text:

Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context.

That goes as much for

Uh, LOTL, have I lost you? I never employed intent once in my original post, I simply stated that I watched ROTS, came to a conclusion and linked my findings to you: a single clip. All of your ranting here is predicated on a false premise... and thus I'm not going to address any of it. Not that I care what an army of mini-you's and Kenobi wankers who are sad their boy got trounced think: some people take retarded conclusions away from media because they can't handle reality - there's nothing I can do about that. You know what, why don't you - instead of Googling "why did Obi-Wan lose to Dooku" - Google "denial definition", you might find it... educational.

Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context. Context.


To add to the comedy:

The comparison certainly does not paint a "stomp" gap between Kenobi and Dooku, lol.

Please boy. If you legit think that I have Obi Wan stomping the Count( which even in my wildest dreams I have never posited as a legit argument) based on this sarcastic mockery of your "single clip" argument, by throwing that very argument in your face:

I accept that Obi Wan in the end of the movie completely stomps the Count given his contention with an Anakin that is clearly shown to be more powerful, stronger and a better combatant in every way than the Anakin that made Dooku into a complete clown on the IH.

You will have to justify me wasting even a single minute of my time for engaging in what might prove to be an exercise in frustration( engaging in arguments with a person who cannot even lay out his arguments sequentially or has any idea what he is talking about) here. Yeah, in case I have to make that clear too, by "shown to be more powerful", I mean it literally. From the movie clip. 

I would have let that go, really. I have no interest in petty squabbles but if you want to call me out personally by baiting along with being stupid enough to broadcast it to everyone on chat then I guess I have no choice. We could have enjoyed a chat with warm feelings but I guess you want the alternative

Super fight continues.

@LOTL



I'd love to address this now, but I'm in the middle of doing some Biology work, so expect a response later.

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:
Anyway, in regards to the rest, I honestly don't see how you read these passages[...]

He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy  ooze that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through his guts ...
Almost as though he was still afraid ...
She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.  Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out.
He shook himself again and strode towards the holocomm. He would talk to his Master.  Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.

...and assume that Anakin has the same strength in both fights. You're welcome to your opinion, though, I guess.

Oh, come on now.  Like LOTL, you're entitled to your opinion about the dragon metaphor, but...  to say that you "honestly don't see how" he could conclude that M!Vader is stronger than IH!Anakin is bogus, since in retrieving that second quote, you must've deliberately omitted the lines immediately preceding it:

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.  He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.  He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . . transformation.  A fatal transformation.  Everything was proceeding according to plan.  And yet . .

He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation[...]

Can't believe that metaphor is being thrown around as a legit argument. Come on, HP, you are better off arguing Anakin not having a bath in the morning being the main reason for his hindrance. It is honestly far more believable

It's a perfectly fine argument.

LOTL wrote:Can't believe that metaphor is being thrown around as a legit argument. Come on, HP, you are better off arguing Anakin not having a bath in the morning being the main reason for his hindrance. It is honestly far more believable

That's not a rebuttal

I wasn't giving one

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.  

Ah, the classic "feel my wickedness" villain stance.

CuckedCurry wrote:Dooku, comfortably. Only chance of a victory for Kenobi is if Tyranus goes for Luke

Yeah, if Tyranus threatens Luke, Kenobi kicks his teeth out before the threat is finished.

LOTL wrote:I wasn't giving one

And yet you felt the need to claim what you responded to was ridiculous.

Put your money where your mouth is.