- Latham2000Level Three
Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 7:03 am
Legends only of course. TPM Maul has his saberstaff, SoD Maul has his darksaber.
Round 1: Sabers only.
Round 2: All-out.
Round 1: Sabers only.
Round 2: All-out.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 7:21 am
SoD Maul stomps.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 8:01 am
KingofBlades wrote:SoD Maul stomps.
What makes you think the fight is so one sided that SoD Maul stomps his younger self?
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 8:36 am
It is my understanding that Maul experienced growth after Lawless. Even if that's not the case and SoD Maul is at roughly the same level he was as of Lawless, he was able to do this a year prior to Lawless: https://youtu.be/EUevM0XLJLQ
Since S4 savage was more powerful than TPM maul (Link) insta stomping a more powerful iteration of savage suggests even S5 E1 Maul could stomp his TPM iteration. Then tack on a years worth of growth to get to Lawless Maul and I'm not really seeing how TPM Maul lasts longer than 10 seconds here. Any growth by the time of SoD is just icing on the cake imo. Also why this thread is even a thing, I thought it was universally accepted that SoD Maul was superior?
Since S4 savage was more powerful than TPM maul (Link) insta stomping a more powerful iteration of savage suggests even S5 E1 Maul could stomp his TPM iteration. Then tack on a years worth of growth to get to Lawless Maul and I'm not really seeing how TPM Maul lasts longer than 10 seconds here. Any growth by the time of SoD is just icing on the cake imo. Also why this thread is even a thing, I thought it was universally accepted that SoD Maul was superior?
- Master AzrongerModerator
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 8:42 am
KingofBlades wrote:SoD Maul stomps.
_________________
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 8:53 am
S7 Maul had lost Talzin, been soundly defeated and was ready to die. He'd gone almost completely insane with hatred, grief and rage by that point and made very stupid mistakes during his fight with Ahsoka. SoD Maul still has his sanity and won't make those stupid mistakes. He stomps.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 9:05 am
KingofBlades wrote:It is my understanding that Maul experienced growth after Lawless. Even if that's not the case and SoD Maul is at roughly the same level he was as of Lawless, he was able to do this a year prior to Lawless: https://youtu.be/EUevM0XLJLQ
Since S4 savage was more powerful than TPM maul (Link) insta stomping a more powerful iteration of savage suggests even S5 E1 Maul could stomp his TPM iteration. Then tack on a years worth of growth to get to Lawless Maul and I'm not really seeing how TPM Maul lasts longer than 10 seconds here. Any growth by the time of SoD is just icing on the cake imo. Also why this thread is even a thing, I thought it was universally accepted that SoD Maul was superior?
The time gap between The Lawless and Revival isn't an entire year though, at best it's probably a few months, and Maul inactive throughout for a decent amount of the time passage i.e. being almost frozen in space and captured by Sidious. As for the TCW magazine you're citing, you're forgetting what the entire verdict says:
"Verdict: So who would win in a fight between these two brutal brothers? Tough call. Maul has the skills with a blade to out-fight his brother, and his artificial legs could be used to offset Opress's sheer brute strength. However, Opress has greater control and power of the Force, and with this, combined with his physical power, could overcome Maul. But we still wouldn't like to say!"
The verdict of the magazine, while saying Savage has greater Force power, also implies that Maul's lightsaber skills are greater (which is reinfoced by saying that Savage is "master of no discipline" whereas Maul is a "Master of Juyo, Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi" in the fighting skills section), and that that Maul's superior lightsaber skill and cybernetic legs could enable him to defeat Savage -- which is exactly what happens in Revival i.e. he disarms Savage first, and then pins him to the ground with the use of his cybernetic legs. SoD Maul doesn't have those elongated cybernetic legs to pin TPM Maul down, and TPM Maul's fighting style is different than Savage (who the magazine claims is a master of no discipline, but TPM Maul is a master of "various disciplines"), Savage has been described by Filoni like the typical mindless Hulk i.e. "he's all aggression and power." Moreover, the verdict also implicitly teases that they're going to fight in the future [of it's publication] because it says "but we still wouldn't like to say!" right at the end, which might have something to do with the fact that the magazine was published only a few weeks before Revival publicly aired, showing us an actual fight between Maul and Savage, where Savage gets curbostomped.
I'd also like to add that since you're arguing that the magazine is referring to S4 versions of Maul and Savage based on TCW magazine's publication date predating season 5, which is reasonable, there's already another pre-season 5 source i.e. Star Wars Insider 134, saying that Maul is a "far more formidable foe," so I think it's a case of different writers giving different takes on how Maul and Savage stack up to each other. I think Insider's take is more in line with what Season 5 shows us to be honest, because Maul curbostomps Savage in their fight that wasn't at all a "tough call" that the magazine claims. TCW magazine's claims are also bizarre, it claims that Savage is a master of no discipline, but how can Savage be a master of no discipline if he is able to know how to wield a saberstaff without accidentally killing himself? The saberstaff has been criticised for being so dangerous to its users that they would end up an hero without mastering it
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 9:45 am
SoD Maul is at least double what TPM Maul is, we can see this based off how Maul fairs against Kenobi in season 4 to a few months later when he ragdolls. Kenobi catches up by Florrum but that's not the point, maul grows a ragdoll gap in a few months similar to the growth darth vader experienced
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 9:50 am
> Korriban wrote:SoD Maul is at least double what TPM Maul is, we can see this based off how Maul fairs against Kenobi in season 4 to a few months later when he ragdolls. Kenobi catches up by Florrum but that's not the point, maul grows a ragdoll gap in a few months similar to the growth darth vader experienced
I've got to disagree with this line of thought, Maul's performance in S4 can be chalked up to him gradually shaking off the rust of 12 years of being out of practise as the fight goes on because he's initially losing the fight, getting kicked by Kenobi twice, but finally makes headway by the time Obi-Wan gets his blue lightsaber back, where he lands kicks on Kenobi before even using psychological warfare to mentally unbalance Obi-Wan.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 10:17 am
Bro, really? Maul had savage on the ground in7 seconds. Whatever advantages his legs gave him isn't accounting for one of the most embarrassing clownings in the entire mythos. Savage himself definitely doesn't think it's the legs, being in awe over Maul's growth after the beatdown. That still leaves S5 E1 Maul massively beyond s5 E1 Savage who should logically be considerably more powerful than his s4 iteration( it's not as if he was twiddling his thumbs while Maul was undergoing mega growth). So at a bare minimum we have Revival Maul wildly beyond S5 Savage, who is at worst equal to his s4 iteration who is comparable to TPM Maul's equal(s4 Maul). But let's stop and think if this low end interpretation is all that likely. Maul goes from being on par with Savage to roflstomping him into the ground after only a month. Logically the multi month time gap between Revival and Lawless resulted in a great deal of growth. Or do you think Maul's growth slowed down astronomically for no apparent reason? I find this much more generous scaling more likely:
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>S5 savage>>S4 savage~s4 maul=TPM maul.
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>S5 savage>>S4 savage~s4 maul=TPM maul.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 10:22 am
I'm on mobile so let's keep the post lengths short if possible
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 10:43 am
KingofBlades wrote:Bro, really? Maul had savage on the ground in7 seconds. Whatever advantages his legs gave him isn't accounting for one of the most embarrassing clownings in the entire mythos. Savage himself definitely doesn't think it's the legs, being in awe over Maul's growth after the beatdown. That still leaves S5 E1 Maul massively beyond s5 E1 Savage who should logically be considerably more powerful than his s4 iteration( it's not as if he was twiddling his thumbs while Maul was undergoing mega growth). So at a bare minimum we have Revival Maul wildly beyond S5 Savage, who is at worst equal to his s4 iteration who is comparable to TPM Maul's equal(s4 Maul). But let's stop and think if this low end interpretation is all that likely. Maul goes from being on par with Savage to roflstomping him into the ground after only a month. Logically the multi month time gap between Revival and Lawless resulted in a great deal of growth. Or do you think Maul's growth slowed down astronomically for no apparent reason? I find this much more generous scaling more likely:
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>S5 savage>>S4 savage~s4 maul=TPM maul.
So you've completely ignored my point? I didn't argue that Maul stomped Savage solely because of his cybernetic legs because I acknowledged that he disarmed Savage first by skilfully grabbing his arm, which is a finesse move, before using his cybernetic legs. If we replaced SoD Maul in that, it's actually dubious whether he'd be able to grab Savage by the arm because Revival Maul had the reach advantage over Savage, which is arguably what enabled him to grab Savage's arm and pull it up, thanks to being taller than Savage, whereas SoD Maul is much shorter than Savage. Morever, even if SoD Maul did manage to do that for argument's sake, there's no way his cybernetic legs can pin down Savage because they don't have claws, making it feasible for Savage breaking out of Maul's grip, though he'd still lose very decisively, but not as quickly. None of this contradicts the TCW magazine saying Maul can take down Savage via skill and cybernetics, and Maul doesn't use any of his Force powers in that fight. Frankly I don't take necessarily take TCW magazine's verdict as gospel because of its target audience and bizarre claims (e.g. Savage being a master of no discipline), and I don't see what makes the TCW magazine's match up different than head to head pieces, which have verdicts claiming that RotJ Luke beating Mustafar Anakin and suited Vader beating RotS Yoda, but since you're taking TCW magazine as gospel for the sake of scaling SoD Maul leagues upon leagues ahead of TPM Maul, then it's only fair if I cite the magazine's claim that Maul is more skilled and can use his cybernetics to take down Savage, which almost a prediction of what he does in Revival. And this scaling of yours is dubious because it says that S4 Savage is roughly on the same level as S4 Maul, but Star Wars Insider, says otherwise:
"Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat. "Savage is fearsome," Taylor points out. "He would tear the arms off a wookiee with his teeth. But Maul is calculating, and his ability makes him a far more formidable foe." Add the fact that the two warriors share a brotherly bond, and you have a one-two punch unrivalled by another other team in the Star Wars galaxy.
Taylor finds the familial link an interesting avenue for character exploration. "Savage went looking for his brother and, to me, this is because he needed someone," he says. "There's a lot more emotional instability and rage in him. With Maul, you don't feel like he needs anyone. Maul is the only child who got all the cool presents. Savage just wants to share some of them." ― Star Wars Insider 134.
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 11:31 am
sod maul after a mid diff battle
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 11:35 am
I don't know if you know this, but being taller doesn't increase your arm reach. Nothing is preventing SoD Maul from grabbing his arm lol. And about the chicken legs. Yes SoD Maul would be unable to pin Savage onto the ground the way he did, but that doesn't mean he can't do something else like kicking him onto the floor the old fashioned way, effectively achieving the same result. Also note that had Maul chosen to, he could've incapacitated/killed savage 4 seconds into the fight by attacking with his light saber rather than pinning him to The ground. Fortunately for Savage, Maul wasn't trying to injure him. You brought up Maul's skill advantage but since Maul is always more skilled than Savage, no matter the iteration, that's an irrelevant variable in determining the gap between Revival Maul and Savage.So chicken legs/skill aside, Revival Maul is still massively beyond Savage.
About your insider quote. The quote isn't stated by insider directly, it's an author quote by Tom Holloway. A random author's opinion isn't overriding the official source I provided. And to clarify my take on which sources take precedence others. In the examples you gave(RotJ Luke vs MFV, Yoda vs Suit Vader) there are sources of much greater authority, namely Lucas, that effectively override a source like the head to head pieces. Holloway, however, is not Lucas. His opinion can't override an actual source like the one I provided. Meaning the examples you used in an attempt to delegitimize my source don't at all apply.The scaling for Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage~TPM Maul will stand!
About your insider quote. The quote isn't stated by insider directly, it's an author quote by Tom Holloway. A random author's opinion isn't overriding the official source I provided. And to clarify my take on which sources take precedence others. In the examples you gave(RotJ Luke vs MFV, Yoda vs Suit Vader) there are sources of much greater authority, namely Lucas, that effectively override a source like the head to head pieces. Holloway, however, is not Lucas. His opinion can't override an actual source like the one I provided. Meaning the examples you used in an attempt to delegitimize my source don't at all apply.The scaling for Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage~TPM Maul will stand!
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 12:18 pm
KingofBlades wrote:I don't know if you know this, but being taller doesn't increase your arm reach. Nothing is preventing SoD Maul from grabbing his arm lol. And about the chicken legs. Yes SoD Maul would be unable to pin Savage onto the ground the way he did, but that doesn't mean he can't do something else like kicking him onto the floor the old fashioned way, effectively achieving the same result. Also note that had Maul chosen to, he could've incapacitated/killed savage 4 seconds into the fight by attacking with his light saber rather than pinning him to The ground. Fortunately for Savage, Maul wasn't trying to injure him. You brought up Maul's skill advantage but since Maul is always more skilled than Savage that's an irrelevant variable in determining the gap between Revival Maul and Savage. So chicken legs/skill aside, Revival Maul is still massively beyond Savage.
About your insider quote. The quote isn't stated by insider directly, it's an author quote by Tom Holloway. A random author's opinion isn't overriding the official source I provided. And to clarify my take on which sources take precedence others. In the examples you gave(RotJ Luke vs MFV, Yoda vs Suit Vader) there are sources of much greater authority, namely Lucas, that effectively override a source like the head to head pieces. Holloway, however, is not Lucas. His opinion can't override an actual source like the one I provided. Meaning the examples you used in an attempt to delegitimize my source don't at all apply.The scaling for Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage~TPM Maul will stand!
Yes I know that being taller doesn't increase your arm reach, never once did I claim that, what I did actually claim was that Maul's cybernetic legs made gave him an unusual reach advantage i.e. he was able to reach reach out by grabbing Savage more feasibly than he would have had he had his 1.75m build (TPM and SoD Maul's height) because his larger legs can cover more distance. And I'm not going to deny that Maul wasn't fighting with lethal intent because I never argued otherwise, and the other various possibilities you're proposing of how Maul can stomp Savage in 7 seconds are speculation. And never did I say that Maul's skill advantage only started existing in Season 5. Note that I'm not saying that Revival Maul isn't far above Savage, he is, because he beat him in 7 seconds through the use of finesse and cybernetics, which is what he used against Savage, your last sentence in your first paragraph is "So chicken legs/skill aside, Revival Maul is still massively beyond Savage." what exactly are you trying to say? That Maul can still stomp Savage in 7 seconds even without using his skill and chicken legs, even though the former is what virtually every duelist uses?
Really? Tom *Taylor (dunno who Tom Holloway is) didn't say that it was his opinion, and you're saying his claim that Maul is far more formidable than Savage isn't even official because the magazine itself quotes him saying that, rather than itself saying that... Even though the magazine itself, which is an official LFL source.... Accepted his claims and published it. If Tom Taylor's "opinion" wasn't official, then the Insider magazine, which is an official LFL source in case you forgot, wouldn't have quoted him in the first place unless if you want to tell me that Star Wars Insider was deliberately including and publishing misinformation. As as a matter of fact, the magazine itself actually explicitly agrees with him, because right before it quotes him, it explcitly says this: "Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat" before quoting Tom's claim of Maul being far more formidable than Savage, the Insider itself prefaces Savage as being "no slouch" when it comes "to fighting," but then says Savage "takes a back seat" when "compared to Maul" i.e. Savage, who isn't a slouch as a fighter, takes a backseat to Maul when it comes to fighting, ergo Maul is better than Savage, which is reinforced by Tom Taylor's comments, which the same Insider itself, on the exact same page, a few sentences later, saying that Maul is far more formidable than Savage. Neither statements from the Insider magazine (which is an official LFL source) and from Taylor Taylor (which is cited by the official LFL Insider magazine) are mutually exclusive, but they actually also compliment each other. Handwaving this as nothing more than a random author's opinion, despite the Tom not saying that his statement is only his opinion, despite the LFL Insider magazine claiming that Maul is above Savage in conjunction with Tom's statement, despite the published LFL magazine itself having no qualms with citing his statment to begin with when they could've just thrown it out during the editorial process before finally being published - is being wilfully ignorant. So your scaling doesn't actually hold up and remains partially dubious.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 1:21 pm
Not really sure where I got Holloway...anyways
I'd like you to rewatch the fight. Maul doesn't even fully extend his arm. The idea that SoD Maul is going to be unable to grab Savage's arm when his reach remains unchanged is laughable. Even if he's smaller as of SoD, he's still gonna be able to easily reach the arm lol. And that leads us into the next part of the fight. You can handwave what I said, but the fact remains that Savage was at Maul's mercy when Maul grabbed his arm. Maul was able to keep Savage subdued so long that he was able to easily pin Savage in what is probably the least time efficient move possible. If you want to go deep and analyze these fights, then you have to accept that Savage was completely vulnerable at that moment, and that a Maul with lethal intent could have ended him right then and there, after a whole whopping 4 seconds. Really though we're quarreling over seconds here. Whether or not SoD Maul takes, 4, 7, 10, or even 15 seconds(twice as long as the original fight) it's still a stomp. The best you can do is minimize how badly Savage gets stomped. And considering how easily Maul is able to force a gaping hole in Savage's defenses, along with Maul's growth after Revival, I have no doubt SoD Maul takes out Revival Savage in seconds, more along the lines of a blitz than a stomp.
You're misinterpreting my comment on skill. Given that Maul is always more skilled than Savage at any given point in time, if we're trying to determine the gap between Revival Maul and Savage compared to S4 Maul and Savage, Maul's skill advantage becomes an irrelevant variable. So what I meant by "So chicken legs/skill aside, Revival Maul is still massively beyond Savage" is that since both variables are present in the revival fight and the S4 magazine matchup, we need only compare the result of the revival fight with the verdict of the magazine. And in doing so we discover that Maul has become massively superior to Savage in the time between Revival and S4.
Insider saying Maul is better than Savage doesn't preclude a fight between the two being "tough" as stated in the CW mag. Only the author quote does. However Insider's quote is not dependent on the author quote for It's validity. Just because the author has an opinion that fails to contradict a source, does not make the author's statement inherently c canon. If we were to view this as the Insider statement in the center with the cw mag and the author quote serving as the "deciding factor" that informs our interpretation of the aforementioned statement, an actual c canon source takes precedent over an author statement.
You're also disputing one of the least relevant portions of the scaling. Consider these two chains
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage~S4 Maul=TPM Maul
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage<<(<)S4 Maul=TPM Maul
The former is the gap if I'm right about S4 savage and Maul. The latter chain is if you're right. Notice There are so many large gaps between SoD Maul and S4 savage that TPM Maul still gets stomped even if he's "far more formidable than S4 Savage. It should also be noted that I could be lowballing SoD Maul's superiority over his lawless iteration as I haven't read SoD. So it's entirely possible that SoD stomps even harder than I thought.
I'd like you to rewatch the fight. Maul doesn't even fully extend his arm. The idea that SoD Maul is going to be unable to grab Savage's arm when his reach remains unchanged is laughable. Even if he's smaller as of SoD, he's still gonna be able to easily reach the arm lol. And that leads us into the next part of the fight. You can handwave what I said, but the fact remains that Savage was at Maul's mercy when Maul grabbed his arm. Maul was able to keep Savage subdued so long that he was able to easily pin Savage in what is probably the least time efficient move possible. If you want to go deep and analyze these fights, then you have to accept that Savage was completely vulnerable at that moment, and that a Maul with lethal intent could have ended him right then and there, after a whole whopping 4 seconds. Really though we're quarreling over seconds here. Whether or not SoD Maul takes, 4, 7, 10, or even 15 seconds(twice as long as the original fight) it's still a stomp. The best you can do is minimize how badly Savage gets stomped. And considering how easily Maul is able to force a gaping hole in Savage's defenses, along with Maul's growth after Revival, I have no doubt SoD Maul takes out Revival Savage in seconds, more along the lines of a blitz than a stomp.
You're misinterpreting my comment on skill. Given that Maul is always more skilled than Savage at any given point in time, if we're trying to determine the gap between Revival Maul and Savage compared to S4 Maul and Savage, Maul's skill advantage becomes an irrelevant variable. So what I meant by "So chicken legs/skill aside, Revival Maul is still massively beyond Savage" is that since both variables are present in the revival fight and the S4 magazine matchup, we need only compare the result of the revival fight with the verdict of the magazine. And in doing so we discover that Maul has become massively superior to Savage in the time between Revival and S4.
Insider saying Maul is better than Savage doesn't preclude a fight between the two being "tough" as stated in the CW mag. Only the author quote does. However Insider's quote is not dependent on the author quote for It's validity. Just because the author has an opinion that fails to contradict a source, does not make the author's statement inherently c canon. If we were to view this as the Insider statement in the center with the cw mag and the author quote serving as the "deciding factor" that informs our interpretation of the aforementioned statement, an actual c canon source takes precedent over an author statement.
You're also disputing one of the least relevant portions of the scaling. Consider these two chains
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage~S4 Maul=TPM Maul
SoD Maul>Lawless Maul>>(>)Revival Maul>>>Revival Savage>>S4 Savage<<(<)S4 Maul=TPM Maul
The former is the gap if I'm right about S4 savage and Maul. The latter chain is if you're right. Notice There are so many large gaps between SoD Maul and S4 savage that TPM Maul still gets stomped even if he's "far more formidable than S4 Savage. It should also be noted that I could be lowballing SoD Maul's superiority over his lawless iteration as I haven't read SoD. So it's entirely possible that SoD stomps even harder than I thought.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 4:35 pm
@KingofBlades
Dude, no one is denying that Maul wasn't fighting with lethal intent, nor was anyone denying that SoD Maul can stomp Savage. Stomps can vary in magnitude, what I was arguing against is the notion that SoD Maul can stomp Savage in the exact same fashion that his Revival self did, because it's not as practical when he has a different build, because whilst Maul's arm length was never reduced during the course of TCW when getting his cybernetic legs replaced, his height however was reduced, in fact it was reduced to his former height i.e. TPM height, which was 1.75m, according to The Official Star Wars Fact File Part 24, a series of magazines that covers Legends and Canon material, and I think it's somewhat apparent that Maul has his former build when his chicken legs are replaced by his mandalorian legs, because he goes from being slightly taller than Savage, to noticably shorter. So it's not an argument of whether SoD Maul can beat Savage, nor is it an argument of whether he can stomp him, it's an argument of whether he can stomp him in that the same fashion using the same tactics. I rewatched the fight and I noticed that when Maul disarmed Savage, he specifically grabs him by the wrist whilst disarming him, and whilst he's grabbing Savage's wrist, he yanks it upwards, this achievement of disarmament is certaintly attributable to the fact that Maul is taller than Savage and his superior height enabled him to easily reach out for Savage's wrist and yank it upwards. If Maul had his 1.75m build and wanted to try that tactic, he would have to extend his arm a lot more because of the tables have turned on who's taller, and since he no longer has a pair of cybernetic legs with claws that would pin down Savage, there's the chance that Savage could try breaking out of Maul's grip, enabling Savage to last longer, so Maul would have to rely on other tactics to make headway with the goal of stomping Savage.
Indeed Maul has always been more skilled than Savage, that's what I've trying to emphasise, the magazine's verdict says that Maul is more skilled and the "fighting skill" section also indicates that Maul is skilled. In fact, the magazine indicates that Maul is a lot more skilled than Savage because it says, saying that Maul is a master of Juyo, Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi, but it also says that Savage is a master of no discipline. I think using the magazine's verdict that Maul has grown massively between Revenge and Revival is fallacious because let's remember that the verdict says starts with this: "So who would win in a fight between these two brutal brothers? Tough call. Maul has the skills with a blade to out-fight his brother, and his artificial legs could be used to offset Opress's sheer brute strength. However, Opress has greater control and power of the Force, and with this, combined with his physical power, could overcome Maul. But we still wouldn't like to say!" i.e. the magazine says a fight the outcome in a hypothetical fight between Maul and Savage is a tough call, and the reason why the magazine's verdict is prefaced on that notion is because there's 2 feasible scenarios where either Maul and Savage could win due to having unique advantages over each other; Maul possesses superior skill and has unusual cybernetics that could grant him a victory over Savage, whereas Savage possesses superior Force power and physical power that could grant him the victory over Maul. That's why it's a called "a tough call". They have advantages in different facets of combat, rendering the actual verdict "a tough call" to be judged. And the final sentence of the verdict says that they still don't want to say who the actual victor is, meaning that it's too premature for the victor to be revealed and that the readers are going to have need to have to give it more time to get the answer of the outcome - and we see the answer of the outcome in Revival, a few weeks after the magazine's publication, where Maul stomps Savage. How does he stomp him? He stomps him throught the use of finesse/skill and his unusual cybernetics i.e. disarming him of his saberstaff, grabbing him by the wrist and finally pinning him down with his cybernetic clawed legs, which interestingly enough, is almost perfectly in line with the TCW magazine's claim of how Maul could win. Keep in mind that Maul doesn't actually make offensive Force powers, neither does Savage. You could argue that the TCW magazine's verdict outdated in that respect because it virtually admits that it doesn't know who'd actually win and that we would have to wait and see, whereas in their actual fight in Revival, Maul doesn't just win, he also stomps Savage.
The author statement is certaintly C Canon and handwaving it like it's just the meaningless of a random author is fallacious because the Tom's statement itself is included in the published magazine itself, Lucasfilm could just have just thrown out Tom's statement during the editorial process and independently claimed that Maul is superior to Savage, but they didn't do that in the final product of the published magazine, it not only keeps the author's statement, but compliments it by saying that Maul is better before quoting his words. The fact that the magazine itself says that Maul is superior, rather than outright saying Maul is far superior to Savage like what Tom said, doesn't mean Tom Taylor is wrong or that his statement is rendered meaningless, because the magazine says Maul is superior even before quoting Tom's words that Maul is far superior, and the magazine does not need to spoon feed us for Tom's statement, that is included in the magazine, to be valid. The reason why Tom's statement is valid is because it was included in the C canon Insider magazine that was licensed by Lucasfilm, this is not the same as people going online by virtually forcing them to say the desired words on Twitter for their own agenda driven purposes, or anywhere else on non-LFL social media platform where we can bug them to say the magic word.
I don't have to dispute the entire scaling chain because I don't disagree with SoD/Lawless Maul being far above Savage. However, in both these scaling chains (the second one is slightly more reasonable), I think you're exaggerating the gaps. Based on what is there 2-3 gaps between Lawless Maul and Revival Maul? I can see why there would be 1 gap, because Maul gets a pair of legs that resemble the build that his body is a lot more accustomed to, but besides that, Maul only engages in a few battles, none of them would be meaningful enough to elevate him 2-3 gaps above Revival Maul. And why you are suggesting that there's a massive gap between Revival Savage and Revenge Savage? I can see why he'd grow by a small margin to warrant one ">" gap, but there's little to no emphasis on Savage's growth between season 4 and 5. And you also need to take into consideration that fighting styles are an actual factor in fights, TPM Maul's fighting style is quite different than Savage, Savage has been criticised by Filoni, saying: "And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how" i.e. Savage is very poorly trained who's all about brute strength and ferocity (hence "all aggression and power"), is kind of like the typical mindless Hulk in that he has very little discipline and lacks knowledge. TCW magazine also says that Savage is a "master of no discipline" and that he "relies too much on brute strength against well-trained opponents" to add insult to injury. You could say that these quotes are exaggerations because Savage has wielded a saberstaff for 3 seasons and doesn't accidentally kill himself whilst using it, but Savage's fighting style doesn't go through any serious, massive fundamental change throughout the course of TCW. TPM Maul however has multiple quotes praising his lightsaber skill and praising how well trained he is, so I think the absolute worst case scenario here is that TPM Maul is just less powerful than Savage, who in turn is less powerful than Revival/Lawless/SoD Maul, in Force power, but this doesn't account for how TPM Maul compares to Savage, so it's not like TPM Maul is locked below Savage in skill. Savage is a definitely a very strength orientated fighter, he abuses his abnormal hulk like strength, but TPM Maul doesn't fighting like that, although TPM Maul has great feats with brute strength, he's more of a finesse fighter. In his duel with Qui-Gon Jinn on Naboo, he overcomes Jinn by slamming his saberstaff hilt in Jinn's face, which is a finesse feat, not a strength feat, and all 3 editions of The Ultimate Visual Guide (released in 2005, 2007 and 2012), state this: "When Qui-Gon is briefly separated from Obi-Wan by an energized laser barrier, Darth Maul uses his superior Sith fighting skills to kill the Jedi Master." i.e. Maul was more skilled and he used his superior skill to slam his weapon's hilt in Qui-Gon's face. There are also quotes, like TPM novel, saying that Maul was stronger and faster than Qui-Gon though, but that's because Maul is much younger, and Maul doesn't rely on strength in the same fashion that Savage does.
Dude, no one is denying that Maul wasn't fighting with lethal intent, nor was anyone denying that SoD Maul can stomp Savage. Stomps can vary in magnitude, what I was arguing against is the notion that SoD Maul can stomp Savage in the exact same fashion that his Revival self did, because it's not as practical when he has a different build, because whilst Maul's arm length was never reduced during the course of TCW when getting his cybernetic legs replaced, his height however was reduced, in fact it was reduced to his former height i.e. TPM height, which was 1.75m, according to The Official Star Wars Fact File Part 24, a series of magazines that covers Legends and Canon material, and I think it's somewhat apparent that Maul has his former build when his chicken legs are replaced by his mandalorian legs, because he goes from being slightly taller than Savage, to noticably shorter. So it's not an argument of whether SoD Maul can beat Savage, nor is it an argument of whether he can stomp him, it's an argument of whether he can stomp him in that the same fashion using the same tactics. I rewatched the fight and I noticed that when Maul disarmed Savage, he specifically grabs him by the wrist whilst disarming him, and whilst he's grabbing Savage's wrist, he yanks it upwards, this achievement of disarmament is certaintly attributable to the fact that Maul is taller than Savage and his superior height enabled him to easily reach out for Savage's wrist and yank it upwards. If Maul had his 1.75m build and wanted to try that tactic, he would have to extend his arm a lot more because of the tables have turned on who's taller, and since he no longer has a pair of cybernetic legs with claws that would pin down Savage, there's the chance that Savage could try breaking out of Maul's grip, enabling Savage to last longer, so Maul would have to rely on other tactics to make headway with the goal of stomping Savage.
Indeed Maul has always been more skilled than Savage, that's what I've trying to emphasise, the magazine's verdict says that Maul is more skilled and the "fighting skill" section also indicates that Maul is skilled. In fact, the magazine indicates that Maul is a lot more skilled than Savage because it says, saying that Maul is a master of Juyo, Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi, but it also says that Savage is a master of no discipline. I think using the magazine's verdict that Maul has grown massively between Revenge and Revival is fallacious because let's remember that the verdict says starts with this: "So who would win in a fight between these two brutal brothers? Tough call. Maul has the skills with a blade to out-fight his brother, and his artificial legs could be used to offset Opress's sheer brute strength. However, Opress has greater control and power of the Force, and with this, combined with his physical power, could overcome Maul. But we still wouldn't like to say!" i.e. the magazine says a fight the outcome in a hypothetical fight between Maul and Savage is a tough call, and the reason why the magazine's verdict is prefaced on that notion is because there's 2 feasible scenarios where either Maul and Savage could win due to having unique advantages over each other; Maul possesses superior skill and has unusual cybernetics that could grant him a victory over Savage, whereas Savage possesses superior Force power and physical power that could grant him the victory over Maul. That's why it's a called "a tough call". They have advantages in different facets of combat, rendering the actual verdict "a tough call" to be judged. And the final sentence of the verdict says that they still don't want to say who the actual victor is, meaning that it's too premature for the victor to be revealed and that the readers are going to have need to have to give it more time to get the answer of the outcome - and we see the answer of the outcome in Revival, a few weeks after the magazine's publication, where Maul stomps Savage. How does he stomp him? He stomps him throught the use of finesse/skill and his unusual cybernetics i.e. disarming him of his saberstaff, grabbing him by the wrist and finally pinning him down with his cybernetic clawed legs, which interestingly enough, is almost perfectly in line with the TCW magazine's claim of how Maul could win. Keep in mind that Maul doesn't actually make offensive Force powers, neither does Savage. You could argue that the TCW magazine's verdict outdated in that respect because it virtually admits that it doesn't know who'd actually win and that we would have to wait and see, whereas in their actual fight in Revival, Maul doesn't just win, he also stomps Savage.
The author statement is certaintly C Canon and handwaving it like it's just the meaningless of a random author is fallacious because the Tom's statement itself is included in the published magazine itself, Lucasfilm could just have just thrown out Tom's statement during the editorial process and independently claimed that Maul is superior to Savage, but they didn't do that in the final product of the published magazine, it not only keeps the author's statement, but compliments it by saying that Maul is better before quoting his words. The fact that the magazine itself says that Maul is superior, rather than outright saying Maul is far superior to Savage like what Tom said, doesn't mean Tom Taylor is wrong or that his statement is rendered meaningless, because the magazine says Maul is superior even before quoting Tom's words that Maul is far superior, and the magazine does not need to spoon feed us for Tom's statement, that is included in the magazine, to be valid. The reason why Tom's statement is valid is because it was included in the C canon Insider magazine that was licensed by Lucasfilm, this is not the same as people going online by virtually forcing them to say the desired words on Twitter for their own agenda driven purposes, or anywhere else on non-LFL social media platform where we can bug them to say the magic word.
I don't have to dispute the entire scaling chain because I don't disagree with SoD/Lawless Maul being far above Savage. However, in both these scaling chains (the second one is slightly more reasonable), I think you're exaggerating the gaps. Based on what is there 2-3 gaps between Lawless Maul and Revival Maul? I can see why there would be 1 gap, because Maul gets a pair of legs that resemble the build that his body is a lot more accustomed to, but besides that, Maul only engages in a few battles, none of them would be meaningful enough to elevate him 2-3 gaps above Revival Maul. And why you are suggesting that there's a massive gap between Revival Savage and Revenge Savage? I can see why he'd grow by a small margin to warrant one ">" gap, but there's little to no emphasis on Savage's growth between season 4 and 5. And you also need to take into consideration that fighting styles are an actual factor in fights, TPM Maul's fighting style is quite different than Savage, Savage has been criticised by Filoni, saying: "And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how" i.e. Savage is very poorly trained who's all about brute strength and ferocity (hence "all aggression and power"), is kind of like the typical mindless Hulk in that he has very little discipline and lacks knowledge. TCW magazine also says that Savage is a "master of no discipline" and that he "relies too much on brute strength against well-trained opponents" to add insult to injury. You could say that these quotes are exaggerations because Savage has wielded a saberstaff for 3 seasons and doesn't accidentally kill himself whilst using it, but Savage's fighting style doesn't go through any serious, massive fundamental change throughout the course of TCW. TPM Maul however has multiple quotes praising his lightsaber skill and praising how well trained he is, so I think the absolute worst case scenario here is that TPM Maul is just less powerful than Savage, who in turn is less powerful than Revival/Lawless/SoD Maul, in Force power, but this doesn't account for how TPM Maul compares to Savage, so it's not like TPM Maul is locked below Savage in skill. Savage is a definitely a very strength orientated fighter, he abuses his abnormal hulk like strength, but TPM Maul doesn't fighting like that, although TPM Maul has great feats with brute strength, he's more of a finesse fighter. In his duel with Qui-Gon Jinn on Naboo, he overcomes Jinn by slamming his saberstaff hilt in Jinn's face, which is a finesse feat, not a strength feat, and all 3 editions of The Ultimate Visual Guide (released in 2005, 2007 and 2012), state this: "When Qui-Gon is briefly separated from Obi-Wan by an energized laser barrier, Darth Maul uses his superior Sith fighting skills to kill the Jedi Master." i.e. Maul was more skilled and he used his superior skill to slam his weapon's hilt in Qui-Gon's face. There are also quotes, like TPM novel, saying that Maul was stronger and faster than Qui-Gon though, but that's because Maul is much younger, and Maul doesn't rely on strength in the same fashion that Savage does.
- MyGod000
Re: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
April 25th 2020, 8:29 pm
S5 Maul is more powerful than TPM Maul...SoD Maul Takes place after S5...so logically he is superior by alot.
This is indeed a stomp in favor of SoD Maul.
This is indeed a stomp in favor of SoD Maul.
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