Darth Nihilus vs. Mace Windu

Yeah he is lol. Not buying him being amped

Explain?

Wait, you still think that he is vastly amped or something by ROTS?

In one specific fight he is.

Yeah you are a newbie so obviously. Keep looking in the Yoda vs Mace thread

The text quite clearly describes Mace drawing on Sidious' power, so yes, he was amped.

However, I'd say base Mace could still compete with Sidious.

Azronger wrote:However, I'd say base Mace could still compete with Sidious.

How's that?

@Slayne Partially redirects blasts from Sidious when distracted, caught off guard and out of Vaapad, holds off his lightning despite Vaapad being useless against it and being exhausted himself, and being stated by Lucas to be his peer.

None if which really matters, Nihilus has the better feats.

Feats aren't always the deciding factor. If dozens of accolades, statements and other sources place you as the most powerful Sith of all time over the last 50 years, that's what you are. The Ones for example have barely any feats, but would you argue Nihilus > them?

But those accolades are subjective and Leland Chee doesn't subscribe to them. So I see no reason I should have to when Sidious doesn't get anything like Nihilus' feats for a good 20 years.

Again, the same thing can be said for the Ones. They have almost no telekinetic feats yet we have them above virtually everyone in Star Wars. Also, do you have a quote from Lee?

The Ones are entirely less complicated. Their position is indisputable.

Show me a quote that isn't one of the following:

1.In-universe.
2.Fallible source.
3.Character perspective.
4.Is only relevant to G-canon or T-canon.

Then explain why I should take that as indisputable gospel when Leland Chee doesn't consider them to be an absolute Canon fact:

Leland Chee wrote:Dave111283(Darth Sexy): Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

Captain Yossarian: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

Tasty Taste (Leland Chee): Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

Link(down): http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...&start=1200

Now whilst I don't dismiss sources claiming as such, I don't see a reason to take them as any more relevant than actual feats comparisons nor do they any longer have any form of retcon authority over different sources claiming that others are stronger or are peers.

In an actual feats comparison, Darth Nihilus has a better telekinesis feat by a mile than Darth Sidious has as of Revenge of the Sith prior to ever draining planets.

Lesser known feats of Darth Nihilus is having galaxy-scale feeding, willing a ship to remain intact regardless of the severity of the structural integrity, being capable of destroying Citadel Station, encroaching upon becoming solar system tier at the height of his power.

Then there's the fact that in terms of feats Nihilus blows Galen Marek clean out of the water given his major hunger growth after leaving Malachor V. Yet TFU Sheev was in pain during his 'desperate' battle with Marek.

I give Sheev relative parity and possible superiority as of ROTJ.

BreakofDawn wrote:@Slayne Partially redirects blasts from Sidious when distracted, caught off guard and out of Vaapad, holds off his lightning despite Vaapad being useless against it and being exhausted himself, and being stated by Lucas to be his peer.

Redirecting part of a blast and not getting disintegrated by one Force push do not signal even relative parity in the slightest, impressive though they might be. As for the lightning, why would Vaapad be useless against it? The text clearly notes Mace slipping back in after saving himself from Sidious' initial attack, and then goes on to explicitly describe its usefulness in reflecting the lightning.

And could you post the Lucas quote? I'm not familiar with it, even though it's probably been brought up thousands of times.

In RotJ the emperor was telepathically controlling the entire imperial fleet IIRC.


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Edit: It might have just been the fleet above Endor, but pretty sure Thrawn meant the entire Imperial navy.

It was battle meditation.

He didn't need to concentrate on it regardless, a pretty impressive feat imo. Compare this to someone like C'baoth, who's more powerful than Vader and can TP tens of millions of people on Wayland; yet struggles to control two fleets four light years away while simultaneously boosting local units by 40% in efficiency.

@slayne

Redirecting part of a blast and not getting disintegrated by one Force push do not signal even relative parity in the slightest, impressive though they might be.

It does when he was caught off guard, distracted and facing a different direction when Sidious was openly trying to knock Mace out of the window and kill him. Instead, even with all of these factors he redirected it to such an extent that he overcame the sheer power of it enough to alter its path. That's incredibly impressive.

As for the lightning, why would Vaapad be useless against it? The text clearly notes Mace slipping back in after saving himself from Sidious' initial attack, and then goes on to explicitly describe its usefulness in reflecting the lightning.

It also states deflecting the lightning quickly became beyond Vaapad, and even in an exhausted, poor defensive position and having a split second to react Mace was still capable of holding it off.

And could you post the Lucas quote? I'm not familiar with it, even though it's probably been brought up thousands of times.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

That and Mace negated the blast to such an extent that he just bounced off a stanchion.  That is a pretty great feat

IIRC, Mace was exhausted after the disarm, whereas Sheev is stated to not be tired at all in the junior novel. Thoughts?

The Ones are entirely less complicated. Their position is indisputable.

Show me a quote that isn't one of the following:

1.In-universe.
2.Fallible source.
3.Character perspective.
4.Is only relevant to G-canon or T-canon.

See, I'd acknowledge this if Sidious only had one accolade putting him as the most powerful Sith of all time. However, by my count not one Sith in the entirety of Star Wars has a number of accolades
even comparable to that of Sidious' establishing him as the most powerful Sith of all time. From The New Essential Chronology to The Complete Visual Dictionary to The Dark Side Sourcebook, no character has even remotely as many accolades or statements establishing themselves as the most powerful Sith in history.

Then explain why I should take that as indisputable gospel when Leland Chee doesn't consider them to be an absolute Canon fact:

Leland Chee wrote:
Dave111283(Darth Sexy): Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

Captain Yossarian: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

Tasty Taste (Leland Chee): Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

That doesn't mean that the accolades and statements are invalid, only that Chee doesn't want to commit to this as he doesn't want to have to contradict himself later on and therefore keep the Star Wars lore fairly consistent and clear. For example, Sidious' closest peer - Valkorion - possesses 8 or so quotes explicitly establishing him as the most powerful Sith by that point in time whereas ROTS Sidious for example has around 13-15 by that point alone. All of these are from multiple sources over several years. While Chee doesn't want to back himself into a corner by saying one way or another, there's a ridiculous amount of canonical authorities depicting Sidious as the most powerful Sith in history.

Now whilst I don't dismiss sources claiming as such, I don't see a reason to take them as any more relevant than actual feats comparisons nor do they any longer have any form of retcon authority over different sources claiming that others are stronger or are peers.

In an actual feats comparison, Darth Nihilus has a better telekinesis feat by a mile than Darth Sidious has as of Revenge of the Sith prior to ever draining planets.

He also has superior telekinetic feats to Valkorion, whose most impressive feats are stomping unchained Vaylin, the Outlander and Arcann and taking down a battalion of Zakuulan knights and skytroopers, but you'd be hard pressed to claim that he's more powerful than him simply due to having more impressive telekinetic feats. The same goes for Yoda, actually. He's been referred to more times than I can count as the most powerful Jedi in history, yet he lacks the actual telekinetic feats. Feats shouldn't automatically > statements and accolades when there are dozens of them to support it.

Lesser known feats of Darth Nihilus is having galaxy-scale feeding,

Source?

willing a ship to remain intact regardless of the severity of the structural integrity,

I'm aware of this. Doing so also weakened him to the point that he could be defeated by Meetra Surik and Visas Marr.

being capable of destroying Citadel Station,

Through telekinesis/raw power or his drain?

encroaching upon becoming solar system tier at the height of his power.

Source?

Then there's the fact that in terms of feats Nihilus blows Galen Marek clean out of the water given his major hunger growth after leaving Malachor V. Yet TFU Sheev was in pain during his 'desperate' battle with Marek.

Already made a case for Sheev with the Galen thing. The moment he becomes desperate and unleashes his full power, he almost instantly kills Galen. Even his restrained power - intended to kill the vastly weaker Kota - nearly knocks Galen unconscious.

I give Sheev relative parity and possible superiority as of ROTJ.

Fair enough. I have the current order as ROTJ Sidious > Valkorion >/= ROTS Sidious = Yoda >/= Mace > Nihilus.

MP wrote:IIRC, Mace was exhausted after the disarm, whereas Sheev is stated to not be tired at all in the junior novel. Thoughts?

Do you have a quote for that? Mace was already stated to be tired before the duel anyway:

"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous's death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."
With a slow purse of the lips and an even slower nod, Yoda said, "On watch you have been too long, my Padawan. Rest you must."
"I will, Master. When the Republic is safe once more." Mace straightened. "We are waiting only for your vote."

-

"It may be. And it may not be. We can only do what we can do, Mace. A very, very wise Jedi once said to me, We don't have to win. All we have to do is fight."
Some of the lines erased themselves from the Koran Master's face then, and when he met Obi-Wan's eye there was a quirk at the corner of his mouth that might someday develop into a smile-a tired, sad smile, but a smile nonetheless.

As far as I recall, Sidious appeared tired in the senior novel but his rage and fury at Mace's mockery allowed him to recover much of his strength, enough to unleash his full power.

MP wrote:In RotJ the emperor was telepathically controlling the entire imperial fleet IIRC.


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Edit: It might have just been the fleet above Endor, but pretty sure Thrawn meant the entire Imperial navy.

Yeah, he controlled the entire Imperial Navy and kept the whole Galactic Empire from falling apart through the Force. The only reason the Empire continued to function was because of the Emperor's transgalactic dark side influence. As soon as he died, the whole system collapsed.

Having drained force reserves and being physically/mentally fatigued are completely different things. Force wielders can push aside the latter, and have done so frequently. Any fatigue experienced by Mace beforehand would be cancelled out while fully channeling Sheev’s dark side energies.

Anyone who truly thinks Mace can take Sidious while ‘tired’ is an absolute buffoon.

Nihilus should one-shot, rather easily.