Yoda and Windu

Please post every quote you guys have regarding Windu's power relative to Yoda, be it "on par", "second only", "seen to be" etc. This can be force, sabers, influence or all of them together.

Thanks

Meatpants wrote:Thanks

So pieces in favour of Windu:

-Has some accolades saying his "powers" are "on par" or "nearly equal" to Yoda's.

Pieces in favour of Yoda:

-Accolades stating he is the most powerful of all Jedi, "ability to use the Force is greater than that of any Jedi", including all of history, and some that say Mace is "second only to Yoda"

-Accolades stating his knowledge of the Force is unmatched among the Jedi

-While some characters (to my knowledge only unnamed random Jedi) believe Windu to be on-par with Yoda, all of the main characters (Yoda himself, Windu himself, Kenobi, Anakin, Dooku and Sidious) believe Yoda to be superior to Windu and to be the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

-In terms of actual feats, the only one Mace has that even remotely compares to Yoda's bout with Sidious is Mace's own bout with the Sith Lord. But given that 1. Sheev's willingness to kill/outright defeat Windu is marred by the idea (which is not without its evidence) that he was putting on something of a show to help convert Anakin to the dark side, and also the fact Sheev's lightning appeared to overwhelm Windu ("this is beyond Vaapad") more quickly than it did Yoda. Yoda's duel was also longer, became more complex and ended in a fairly conclusive stalemate opposed to Windu appearing to be Sheev's outright inferior where responding to his Force Lightning is concerned, even if he did appear to do well in or even win the dueling portion.

-We also have accolades stating that Yoda is equal to Sidious, that their knowledge of the Force is equal or that his knowledge is what allows Yoda to match him, and we know Sidious at this point is more powerful than Knightfall Vader per his supremacy quotes. Sidious also says "Vader will become more powerful than either of us." to Yoda, indicating that even the Dooku-destroying Anakin and his more powerful/focused counterpart in KFV, is weaker than Sheev.

-While Yoda being above KFV doesn't necessarily mean he is also clearly above Mace, it does mean that he is above someone who is a straight up 9 in GIllard's lightsaber tiers before continuing to grow in power, whereas Mace is an "8 bordering on 9". Some people argue that Invisible Hand Anakin is above Vaapad Mace, let alone KFV, so being above him is obviously compelling evidence for Yoda's power that Mace himself can't necessarily make any claims to on the basis of accolades.

So... in terms of accolades I'd say there's an edge to Yoda, because his accolades not only talk about power, but also knowledge and ability, meaning even if Mace is as powerful (which he doesn't appear to be), he could still be functionally less powerful due to lacking Yoda's knowledge and ability to command the Force.

In terms of feats, again, Mace really has nothing until he fights Sidious. Before that point we have fairly conclusive proof from a variety of feat comparisons that Yoda is better (Yoda destroying Ventress with TK/Windu needing to use all of his skills to drive her off, Yoda defeating Dooku emphatically on a dark side nexus, with Yoda himself thinking Mace would at-best match Dooku off-nexus [which is what he did in Obsession.]). As of when Mace fights Sidious, again, Yoda's more protracted battle with Sidious and conclusive Lightning-Tutaminis stalemate is more impressive than Mace's dubious victory over Sheev in sabers and then tacit concession of inferiority to his Lightning.

I mean again, I think Mace is simple to understand really. He's more in line with Dooku, Maul and Kenobi between TPM and the late Clone Wars (a tier 8), but when he gets over his fear of delving into Vaapad (which happens in Shatterpoint and is referred to in Revenge of the Sith), he appears to enter Gillard's 9th tier ("8 bordering on 9"). With Gillard repeatedly stating that "the dark side makes the difference" or "the dark side is a cheat" to explain how someone like Anakin can jump from 8 to 9, it makes perfect sense that Windu mastering Vaapad, which brings him to "the penumbra of the dark side", and is a mindset which involves channelling dark sided emotions without internalising them... it again, is perfectly simple to understand the rather sudden increase in feat quality from Mace.

Yoda and Sheev are the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides respectively during Revenge of the Sith. Anakin/Vader appears to be a close but clear 3rd, and Mace appears to enter their tier for a short time. Maybe Mace vs Anakin is a good fight (one might even say Mace's use of Vaapad makes him better suited to fighting Vader than anyone else) but it doesn't seem like he has much claim to being equal to Yoda and Sheev. Close, but no cigar.

ILS wrote:So pieces in favour of Windu:

-Has some accolades saying his "powers" are "on par" or "nearly equal" to Yoda's.

Pieces in favour of Yoda:

-Accolades stating he is the most powerful of all Jedi, "ability to use the Force is greater than that of any Jedi", including all of history, and some that say Mace is "second only to Yoda"

-Accolades stating his knowledge of the Force is unmatched among the Jedi

-While some characters (to my knowledge only unnamed random Jedi) believe Windu to be on-par with Yoda, all of the main characters (Yoda himself, Windu himself, Kenobi, Anakin, Dooku and Sidious) believe Yoda to be superior to Windu and to be the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

-In terms of actual feats, the only one Mace has that even remotely compares to Yoda's bout with Sidious is Mace's own bout with the Sith Lord. But given that 1. Sheev's willingness to kill/outright defeat Windu is marred by the idea (which is not without its evidence) that he was putting on something of a show to help convert Anakin to the dark side, and also the fact Sheev's lightning appeared to overwhelm Windu ("this is beyond Vaapad") more quickly than it did Yoda. Yoda's duel was also longer, became more complex and ended in a fairly conclusive stalemate opposed to Windu appearing to be Sheev's outright inferior where responding to his Force Lightning is concerned, even if he did appear to do well in or even win the dueling portion.

-We also have accolades stating that Yoda is equal to Sidious, that their knowledge of the Force is equal or that his knowledge is what allows Yoda to match him, and we know Sidious at this point is more powerful than Knightfall Vader per his supremacy quotes. Sidious also says "Vader will become more powerful than either of us." to Yoda, indicating that even the Dooku-destroying Anakin and his more powerful/focused counterpart in KFV, is weaker than Sheev.

-While Yoda being above KFV doesn't necessarily mean he is also clearly above Mace, it does mean that he is above someone who is a straight up 9 in GIllard's lightsaber tiers before continuing to grow in power, whereas Mace is an "8 bordering on 9". Some people argue that Invisible Hand Anakin is above Vaapad Mace, let alone KFV, so being above him is obviously compelling evidence for Yoda's power that Mace himself can't necessarily make any claims to on the basis of accolades.

So... in terms of accolades I'd say there's an edge to Yoda, because his accolades not only talk about power, but also knowledge and ability, meaning even if Mace is as powerful (which he doesn't appear to be), he could still be functionally less powerful due to lacking Yoda's knowledge and ability to command the Force.

In terms of feats, again, Mace really has nothing until he fights Sidious. Before that point we have fairly conclusive proof from a variety of feat comparisons that Yoda is better (Yoda destroying Ventress with TK/Windu needing to use all of his skills to drive her off, Yoda defeating Dooku emphatically on a dark side nexus, with Yoda himself thinking Mace would at-best match Dooku off-nexus [which is what he did in Obsession.]). As of when Mace fights Sidious, again, Yoda's more protracted battle with Sidious and conclusive Lightning-Tutaminis stalemate is more impressive than Mace's dubious victory over Sheev in sabers and then tacit concession of inferiority to his Lightning.

I mean again, I think Mace is simple to understand really. He's more in line with Dooku, Maul and Kenobi between TPM and the late Clone Wars (a tier 8), but when he gets over his fear of delving into Vaapad (which happens in Shatterpoint and is referred to in Revenge of the Sith), he appears to enter Gillard's 9th tier ("8 bordering on 9"). With Gillard repeatedly stating that "the dark side makes the difference" or "the dark side is a cheat" to explain how someone like Anakin can jump from 8 to 9, it makes perfect sense that Windu mastering Vaapad, which brings him to "the penumbra of the dark side", and is a mindset which involves channelling dark sided emotions without internalising them... it again, is perfectly simple to understand the rather sudden increase in feat quality from Mace.

Yoda and Sheev are the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides respectively during Revenge of the Sith. Anakin/Vader appears to be a close but clear 3rd, and Mace appears to enter their tier for a short time. Maybe Mace vs Anakin is a good fight (one might even say Mace's use of Vaapad makes him better suited to fighting Vader than anyone else) but it doesn't seem like he has much claim to being equal to Yoda and Sheev. Close, but no cigar.

I'd add the fact Windu needed to draw on Palpatine's power to boost his own, and still could only stalemate the Sith Lord, only winning by drawing on Anakin's fear to augment himself further, and was still being overwhelmed once Palpatine brought out the lightning. Yoda needed no such amplifications, and was facing a more deadly version of Sidious. The fight between Sidious and Mace has also been described as a mere warm-up compared to the showdown between Yoda and the Emperor.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow’s murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force as though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow’s rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor’s office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

[u]Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace’s only gift.

The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow’s future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—

And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.

The chosen one was here.

Mace disengaged from the shadow’s blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.

His instant’s distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow’s fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow’s lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

“For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,” Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, “is under arrest.”

“Do you see, Anakin? Do you?” Palpatine’s voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man’s. “Didn’t I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?”

“Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It’s over. You’ve lost.” Mace leveled his blade. “You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear.”

Palpatine lifted his head.

His eyes smoked with hate.

“Fool,” he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor’s wings, his hands hooking into talons.

“Fool!” His voice was a shout of thunder. “Do you think the fear you feel is mine?”

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine’s hands, and Mace didn’t have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that poured from his hands only intensified.

He fed the power with his pain.

“Anakin!” Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. “Anakin, help me! This is your chance!”

He felt Anakin’s leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid.

Mace could feel it: he wasn’t worried at all.

ILS wrote:So pieces in favour of Windu:

-Has some accolades saying his "powers" are "on par" or "nearly equal" to Yoda's.

20 more or less. Throughout TPM to ROTS

All types of sources.

Intent wise I think it is clear that Mace is more or less Yoda level throughout. Obviously inferior but still on his general tier

Definitely going with less. Intent-wise I think pretty much every comic, novel and TV episode Mace appeared in prior to RotS makes his inferiority to Yoda clear.

ILS wrote:Definitely going with less. Intent-wise I think pretty much every comic, novel and TV episode Mace appeared in prior to RotS makes his inferiority to Yoda clear.

There is Ahsoka considering his presence in the force stronger than Yoda's presence if I recall correctly

I've never heard of that personally, but sure, if it exists that could be a point for Windu. Not a terribly strong one, but a point.

Thanks for contributions so far. To clarify, I’m not trying to prove Mace = Yoda. I think it’s pretty clear that Yoda is superior, but Windu seems to be in his tier.

The obvious conclusion is that Yoda is better. Whether Mace is close in power or not I'm honestly not sure as to my stance.

Edit: Before anyone hounds me this is pre-ROTS Windu. As of ROTS, he's close tbh.

i’ll See if I can find some quotes that no one has mentioned yet, although I see a conclusion has been reached:Yoda is superior by a fair margin, but Windu isn’t far off.

ILS wrote:So pieces in favour of Windu:

-Has some accolades saying his "powers" are "on par" or "nearly equal" to Yoda's.

Pieces in favour of Yoda:

-Accolades stating he is the most powerful of all Jedi, "ability to use the Force is greater than that of any Jedi", including all of history, and some that say Mace is "second only to Yoda"

-Accolades stating his knowledge of the Force is unmatched among the Jedi

-While some characters (to my knowledge only unnamed random Jedi) believe Windu to be on-par with Yoda, all of the main characters (Yoda himself, Windu himself, Kenobi, Anakin, Dooku and Sidious) believe Yoda to be superior to Windu and to be the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

-In terms of actual feats, the only one Mace has that even remotely compares to Yoda's bout with Sidious is Mace's own bout with the Sith Lord. But given that 1. Sheev's willingness to kill/outright defeat Windu is marred by the idea (which is not without its evidence) that he was putting on something of a show to help convert Anakin to the dark side, and also the fact Sheev's lightning appeared to overwhelm Windu ("this is beyond Vaapad") more quickly than it did Yoda. Yoda's duel was also longer, became more complex and ended in a fairly conclusive stalemate opposed to Windu appearing to be Sheev's outright inferior where responding to his Force Lightning is concerned, even if he did appear to do well in or even win the dueling portion.

-We also have accolades stating that Yoda is equal to Sidious, that their knowledge of the Force is equal or that his knowledge is what allows Yoda to match him, and we know Sidious at this point is more powerful than Knightfall Vader per his supremacy quotes. Sidious also says "Vader will become more powerful than either of us." to Yoda, indicating that even the Dooku-destroying Anakin and his more powerful/focused counterpart in KFV, is weaker than Sheev.

-While Yoda being above KFV doesn't necessarily mean he is also clearly above Mace, it does mean that he is above someone who is a straight up 9 in GIllard's lightsaber tiers before continuing to grow in power, whereas Mace is an "8 bordering on 9". Some people argue that Invisible Hand Anakin is above Vaapad Mace, let alone KFV, so being above him is obviously compelling evidence for Yoda's power that Mace himself can't necessarily make any claims to on the basis of accolades.

So... in terms of accolades I'd say there's an edge to Yoda, because his accolades not only talk about power, but also knowledge and ability, meaning even if Mace is as powerful (which he doesn't appear to be), he could still be functionally less powerful due to lacking Yoda's knowledge and ability to command the Force.

In terms of feats, again, Mace really has nothing until he fights Sidious. Before that point we have fairly conclusive proof from a variety of feat comparisons that Yoda is better (Yoda destroying Ventress with TK/Windu needing to use all of his skills to drive her off, Yoda defeating Dooku emphatically on a dark side nexus, with Yoda himself thinking Mace would at-best match Dooku off-nexus [which is what he did in Obsession.]). As of when Mace fights Sidious, again, Yoda's more protracted battle with Sidious and conclusive Lightning-Tutaminis stalemate is more impressive than Mace's dubious victory over Sheev in sabers and then tacit concession of inferiority to his Lightning.

I mean again, I think Mace is simple to understand really. He's more in line with Dooku, Maul and Kenobi between TPM and the late Clone Wars (a tier 8), but when he gets over his fear of delving into Vaapad (which happens in Shatterpoint and is referred to in Revenge of the Sith), he appears to enter Gillard's 9th tier ("8 bordering on 9"). With Gillard repeatedly stating that "the dark side makes the difference" or "the dark side is a cheat" to explain how someone like Anakin can jump from 8 to 9, it makes perfect sense that Windu mastering Vaapad, which brings him to "the penumbra of the dark side", and is a mindset which involves channelling dark sided emotions without internalising them... it again, is perfectly simple to understand the rather sudden increase in feat quality from Mace.

Yoda and Sheev are the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides respectively during Revenge of the Sith. Anakin/Vader appears to be a close but clear 3rd, and Mace appears to enter their tier for a short time. Maybe Mace vs Anakin is a good fight (one might even say Mace's use of Vaapad makes him better suited to fighting Vader than anyone else) but it doesn't seem like he has much claim to being equal to Yoda and Sheev. Close, but no cigar.

And, as usual, ILS is right.

I'm sorry but this thread is wrong if it places Mace above Anakin which seems to be the implication

Anakin/Vader appears to be a close but clear 3rd

@ILS: That's some suspect insight. While Anakin likely doesn't have sheer breadth of mastery and understanding of the Force as Yoda and Palpatine, he's the best duelist of the three, and his raw applicable power should be right with them per Lucas and a dozen other statements.

I have two quotes (those are in-universe) that give an idea on Windu’s own opinion of himself in comparison to Yoda:



-Yoda Dark Rendezvous 




What do they prove? 
-At the beginning of the war, Mace considered himself a lot less powerful than yoda. Of course this is just his own opinion, but it likely gives us the idea that Windu isn’t on par with Yoda at the beginning of the clone wars, perhaps  even in the same tier. 
-Windu still considers himself Yoda’s inferior towards the end of the war, this time by an indeterminate margin. 
Although they are obviously Windu’s own view they are corroborated by feats and out of universe statements, as has already been explained.

@Azronger

Can you please give me the source names for the Yoda/Windu quote images?

Meatpants wrote:@Azronger

Can you please give me the source names for the Yoda/Windu quote images?

I don't remember, but they're all from action figures of trading cards. You can type the exact words of the scan in Google to find the source.