NJO Team vs PT Team vs Legacy Team

Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, and Mara Jade vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Kit Fisto, and Darth Maul vs. Cade Skywalker, Darth Wyyrlok III,  and Darth Caedus

Kyp as of TUF, everyone else is as of their last appearance. Standard SI rules.

Team legacy >Team PT >Team NJO

DarthAdi wrote:Team legacy >Team PT >Team NJO

Reasons?

Team legacy. 
Reason: 
Caedus > Kyp + Cade > Katarn + Wyyrlok > Mara Jade
Caedus > Maul/Obi-Wan + Cade > Maul/Obi-Wan + Wyyrlok > Kit Fisto

Caedus is the strongest person here, but Maul, Mara, Fisto and even Kenobi can give him hell in sabers.

Legacy or PT takes this. Caedus’s team is ass though.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Caedus is the strongest person here, but Maul, Mara, Fisto and even Kenobi can give him hell in sabers.

Legacy or PT takes this. Caedus’s team is ass though.

What about Kyp? How does he factor into this? Your post implies that he's not a factor compared to Mara, when he's with Kyle in sabers and immensely greater in the force.

Unless Kyp really goes all out, his team loses quickly. Wyyrlok being the MVP of the Legacy team is flat out superior to the MVP of the PT team, Obi Wan. Fisto is also a league below his teammates so the Legacy team wins this pretty clearly

legacy team mainly for wrrylok and caedus

Team Legacy.

Legacy team steamrolls. Caedus is leap and bounds above the rest.

@EmperorCaedus Why is Caedus so far above Kyp exactly?

NJO team steamrolls. Kyp is leap and bounds above the rest.

Caedus > Vol >> Workan >> Gaalan ~ Kyp

Since when is Caedus > Vol? And Kyp ~ Gaalan in sabers, not the force.

Caedus is most powerful of the Sith Lords around 41 ABY. As far as I know, Kyp ~ Gaalan is overall combative viability, and even then a case could be made for why Gaalan > Kyp in the Force.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus > Vol 

It confuses me that a quote that’s clearly including far more than just force power. Caedus, unlike either Vol or Krayt is the head of the GA, which is, interestingly enough, why he was considered too powerful to be captured alive, unlike Raynar Thul: 

Abyss wrote:“It does,” Leia acknowledged. “But it’s not the same thing. By the time anyone realized what was going on with Jacen, he was running the Galactic Alliance.”
“Yeah, and we were the enemy,” Han agreed. “I just wish we could have stuck Jacen in a deten—”
“We would have, had there been some way to take him alive,” Leia interrupted. They didn’t turn down this lane often, but when they did, it devastated her, and she couldn’t let herself be devastated now. “Let’s just focus on the Jedi we can save.”

If the quote were referring to a duel or something similar you’d have a point, but why do we have to assume that the use of the word “power” is unquestionably in reference to the force, right after Jacen’s forces are mentioned? 

But let’s  say your interpretation is correct. Caedus would only scale above 41 ABY Vol, the same year in which the sith started their conquest of the galaxy after 5000 years of isolation. We know adventure or similar motivations are usually a catalyst for growth. In fact Vestara, for example, does grow a lot in power between 43 and 44 ABY. This of course, is without mentioning that Abeloth’s return turned the galaxy into a DS nexus, in the same way as Sheev in 19 BBY, which allowed him to grow. I don’t see how Vol would’ve benefit from it too, given that by 44 ABY he scales immensely above Katarn, who could give Caedus a decent fight.

Essentially, what I’m saying is that Caedus is more powerful than Vol and Krayt in the same way as he is more powerful than UnuThul. Not stronger in the force, but militarily and politically. He’s a greater threat to the galaxy for that reason.

MasterCilghal wrote:It confuses me that a quote that’s clearly including far more than just force power. Caedus, unlike either Vol or Krayt is the head of the GA, which is, interestingly enough, why he was considered too powerful to be captured alive, unlike Raynar Thul: 

One political power supremacy quote does not render all of Caedus' supremacy quotes null -  that's a false equivalency if I've ever seen one. Using your logic, all of Palpatine's power supremacy quotes should be rendered null due to one of them being based on political power. Political power supremacy quotes can inadvertently complicate the rest of the power supremacy quotes and could delegitimize the vast majority of them that are clearly meant to depict power in the Force, as Caedus' "most powerful of all the Sith Lords" quote is.

If the quote were referring to a duel or something similar you’d have a point, but why do we have to assume that the use of the word “power” is unquestionably in reference to the force, right after Jacen’s forces are mentioned? 

The fact the authors write "forces of Darth Caedus" does not comment on the actual nature of the description about Caedus. To take a page from Ant's book, consider the quote, "The heroes fought the forces of Ulic-Qel Droma -- the most powerful Jedi of his generation." I wouldn't take that to mean most politically/militarily powerful Jedi, would you? 

But let’s  say your interpretation is correct. Caedus would only scale above 41 ABY Vol, the same year in which the sith started their conquest of the galaxy after 5000 years of isolation. We know adventure or similar motivations are usually a catalyst for growth. In fact Vestara, for example, does grow a lot in power between 43 and 44 ABY. This of course, is without mentioning that Abeloth’s return turned the galaxy into a DS nexus, in the same way as Sheev in 19 BBY, which allowed him to grow. I don’t see how Vol would’ve benefit from it too, given that by 44 ABY he scales immensely above Katarn, who could give Caedus a decent fight.

The fact that other characters have grown during times of war does not mean that Vol has - unless it is directly stated so. In fact, Vol was actually post-prime during the times of FotJ.

There were more discussions, and plans, and then at last it was time for sleep. Vol would never admit it, but he tired more easily the older he grew. More and more, he found himself needing to take a few moments to utilize the Force to refresh himself. If only one could completely renew an old body, he mused. But he had to settle for knowing that his age was still more an advantage than a liability.

So, there are no statements of Vol actually growing due to the DS nexus galaxy, or the events happening in the galaxy, it is just pure conjecture.

I don’t see how Vol would’ve benefit from it too, given that by 44 ABY he scales immensely above Katarn, who could give Caedus a decent fight.

The fact that Kyle Katarn was noted to be a "threat" to Caedus per himself does not mean that he gave Caedus a "decent fight". Kyle got stomped. Being simply a threat doesn't mean that the disparity isn't any less massive then it was. Note that "omniscient" Sheev thought of Vader as a threat as well, but we all know how massive the disparity is between Sheev and Vader.

He collected some of these Force adepts and took them to his citadel on Byss, where he initiated them in the powers of the dark side. All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfilll Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him. Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.

For readers, here is the quote that is being questioned.

@EmperorCaedus On Kyle, you realize that Kyle being a oneshot gap (more actually) below Vol means that Vol is automatically above Caedus because Caedus is given a decentish fight by Kyle. Whether it's a stomp or not, Caedus is not able to outright throw Kyle away with the Force. Caedus is not able to rip through Kyle's force defenses. Contrast this to Kyle being around Gaalan level, the same Gaalan that's weaker (by a good margin) to any random High Lords, one of whom (Sashal) is immensely weaker than Workan, who it would have been "foolish" to challenge (for Sashal to challenge him). The same Workan would be killed before he could utter a word, by Vol, by the former's own admission. Caedus just doesn't showcase this level of superiority to Kyle.

IG wrote:@EmperorCaedus On Kyle, you realize that Kyle being a oneshot gap (more actually) below Vol means that Vol is automatically above Caedus because Caedus is given a decentish fight by Kyle. Whether it's a stomp or not, Caedus is not able to outright throw Kyle away with the Force. 

You are missing some key context. Caedus' intentions going into the engagement were not to ragdoll/one-shot the strike team, Caedus wanted to know the location of their secret headquarters, as well as stall the strike team until the GAG forces arrived. Outright ragdolling them would not get this accomplished for Caedus. 

Caedus is not able to rip through Kyle's force defenses. Contrast this to Kyle being around Gaalan level, the same Gaalan that's weaker (by a good margin) to any random High Lords, one of whom (Sashal) is immensely weaker than Workan, who it would have been "foolish" to challenge (for Sashal to challenge him). The same Workan would be killed before he could utter a word, by Vol, by the former's own admission. Caedus just doesn't showcase this level of superiority to Kyle.

This encounter should not be used as a basis for comparison, as Caedus was not going all out due to the reasons above. In fact, I could argue that Caedus being more powerful than Darish Vol and his subsequent superiority to Kyle just goes to show how much he was actually jobbing in his encounter with Kyle, which is another reason the encounter is not a basis for comparison.

EmperorCaedus wrote:One political power supremacy quote does not render all of Caedus' supremacy quotes null -  that's a false equivalency if I've ever seen one.

I’m not claiming that specific accolade renders all of Caedus’ irrelevant, I’m saying that his politics is an important part of his character and something that has been included in and is a huge factor in his overall power, so there is a precedence for his power being military, political and in the force at the same time, which is why I’m putting this accolade into question. This infamous quote is far too vague to be explicitly referring to his power in the force, which is reinforced by the book’s plot mentioning Jaina and Zekk’s struggle against his forces. If it mentioned Jaina and Zekk faced Caedus [the most powerful of the Sith Lords] in duel or Jacen’s power in the force in a direct way then you’d have a point, but as it stands I’m free to hold this interpretation (because I’m not saying yours is wrong, simply adding another one, I feel a case can be made either ways). 

EmperorCaedus wrote:Using your logic, all of Palpatine's power supremacy quotes should be rendered null due to one of them being based on political power.

Why would that be a problem? 

EmperorCaedus wrote:Political power supremacy quotes can inadvertently complicate the rest of the power supremacy quotes and could delegitimize the vast majority of them that are clearly meant to depict power in the Force, as Caedus' "most powerful of all the Sith Lords" quote is.

You’ve not explained why they’re “clearly meant to depict power in the force” and especially why this one in particular is, which is what I’ve been asking from the beginning. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:The heroes fought the forces of Ulic-Qel Droma -- the most powerful Jedi of his generation." I wouldn't take that to mean most politically/militarily powerful Jedi, would you? 

I wouldn’t, but Ulic is a Jedi, unlike Caedus. He or any other jedi for that matter (barring a few exceptions) is not encouraged to pursue a political career nor do they have any official position. Caedus by 41 ABY is literally the most powerful man in the galaxy, as the joint chief of state of the galactic alliance. Neither Vol nor Krayt do share this. 
The rest will be addressed tomorrow.

I’m not claiming that specific accolade renders all of Caedus’ irrelevant, I’m saying that his politics is an important part of his character and something that has been included in and is a huge factor in his overall power, so there is a precedence for his power being military, political and in the force at the same time, which is why I’m putting this accolade into question. This infamous quote is far too vague to be explicitly referring to his power in the force, which is reinforced by the book’s plot mentioning Jaina and Zekk’s struggle against his forces. If it mentioned Jaina and Zekk faced Caedus [the most powerful of the Sith Lords] in duel or Jacen’s power in the force in a direct way then you’d have a point, but as it stands I’m free to hold this interpretation (because I’m not saying yours is wrong, simply adding another one, I feel a case can be made either ways). 

I understand your interpretation. I'd just like to note that if you hold that more powerful quotes often have nothing to due with power in the Force, that could inadvertently complicate the rest of the power supremacy quotes and could delegitimize the vast majority of them, including the ones you use for Darish Vol and others.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Using your logic, all of Palpatine's power supremacy quotes should be rendered null due to one of them being based on political power.

Why would that be a problem?

Because most of them are obviously referring to power in the Force rather than political shenanigans. Like this one, for example. You could argue that it's referring to political power in the same manner that you are arguing Caedus' is.

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

You’ve not explained why they’re “clearly meant to depict power in the force” and especially why this one in particular is, which is what I’ve been asking from the beginning. 

The background information surrounding the text does not impact Caedus being "most powerful of the Sith Lords". If we took supremacy quotes as not referring to one's own power, then that would render all supremacy quotes akin to this one as null, ones that you personally use often. 

I wouldn’t, but Ulic is a Jedi, unlike Caedus. He or any other jedi for that matter (barring a few exceptions) is not encouraged to pursue a political career nor do they have any official position. Caedus by 41 ABY is literally the most powerful man in the galaxy, as the joint chief of state of the galactic alliance. Neither Vol nor Krayt do share this. 
The rest will be addressed tomorrow.

Like I've said, the fact that Caedus' Forces are the strongest does not render Caedus being most powerful of the Sith Lords as null, because you are basing it off of the surrounding context.

EmperorCaedus wrote:I understand your interpretation. I'd just like to note that if you hold that more powerful quotes often have nothing to due with power in the Force, that could inadvertently complicate the rest of the power supremacy quotes and could delegitimize the vast majority of them, including the ones you use for Darish Vol and others.

As I made implicit in my post, I don’t have a problem with delegitimizing supremacy quotes, so your point there is moot. The question is though, why does Darish Vol matter? Not only does he have only 1 such quote, but his hype is hardly built on that. Not to mention that his position, just like that of every Sith in the tribe, has been earned through strength in the force. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:Because most of them are obviously referring to power in the Force rather than political shenanigans. Like this one, for example. You could argue that it's referring to political power in the same manner that you are arguing Caedus' is.

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

I actually find this quote far more believable than the Caedus one. Vader here is saying that he can’t defeat Sheev unless he finds a worthy apprentice. And I don’t think said apprentice would help Vader to defeat his master politically or militarily, it’s obviously in a duel, rendering Sheev’s quote force-related. Caedus’, by contrast, references Jaina’s and Zekk’s struggle with his forces, as I’ve been saying since the very beginning of this debate. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:The background information surrounding the text does not impact Caedus being "most powerful of the Sith Lords". If we took supremacy quotes as not referring to one's own power, then that would render all supremacy quotes akin to this one as null, ones that you personally use often. 

I think it’s far more logical to evaluate the surrounding context when the terms “powerful” has a wide variety of meanings. And as I said, I don’t really care if some supremacy quotes are rendered null as far as power in the force goes and I don’t recall using any of them often. You seem to be appealing to the consequences of this interpretation of the statement, which as I’ve already said before and I reiterate here would not be an issue for me, instead of actually defending your interpretation of the quote. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:Like I've said, the fact that Caedus' Forces are the strongest does not render Caedus being most powerful of the Sith Lords as null, because you are basing it off of the surrounding context.

See above. Btw, you haven’t addressed my point for why your example doesn’t work. 

Now back to the Vol arguments. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:The fact that other characters have grown during times of war does not mean that Vol has - unless it is directly stated so. In fact, Vol was actually post-prime during the times of FotJ.

There were more discussions, and plans, and then at last it was time for sleep. Vol would never admit it, but he tired more easily the older he grew. More and more, he found himself needing to take a few moments to utilize the Force to refresh himself. If only one could completely renew an old body, he mused. But he had to settle for knowing that his age was still more an advantage than a liability.

This quote in no way implies his power is any weaker, in fact not once is it stated his power in the force was greater in his youth. It’s only dealing with the effects of age on his body, to which the force is mentioned as what allows him to refresh himself, so it’s outside of the equation. After all, don’t forget that he’s at least 90 if not 100 years old by the end of Ascension.
It’s interesting that even Yoda and Dooku have similar statements about their age yet Dooku is confirmed to have grown in power during the clone wars, and by extension Yoda since they are equals by AOTC while Yoda is superior by ROTS. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:So, there are no statements of Vol actually growing due to the DS nexus galaxy, or the events happening in the galaxy, it is just pure conjecture.

I mean by your same logic just because it’s not stated it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. We can extrapolate it from these factors: 
1- the book notes the Lost Tribe is growing stronger: 

Ascension wrote:“Tahv has been abandoned,” Vol said solemnly. “Too little remained to safely continue inhabiting there. We have not lost faith in you and this endeavor, though. And it seems that faith was justified. From the ashes of a blasted city, here I stand, victory a few hours away. In attempting to crush us, Abeloth has only made us stronger. She has delivered this place into our hands while she scuttles furtively about the galaxy, no doubt tackling worlds unable to offer true resistance to salve her ego while we grow strong.”

This isn’t just their grip on the galaxy, but i imagine it would also include their power in the force which as I said, does increase in war times. 

2- Vol has much stronger comparison to Luke. He contended with Abeloth and resisted her tentacles, which has given pause even to all out and motivated Luke, who would pulverize Caedus when we consider that a hindered Luke, whose power level constantly fluctuates thorough that series, has been able to hold Caedus with the force effortlessly more than once. I’ll leave it to you to choose who’s better. 

EmperorCaedus wrote:Note that "omniscient" Sheev thought of Vader as a threat as well, but we all know how massive the disparity is between Sheev and Vader.

I won’t address the Katarn fight since I believe how well Katarn performed is heavily up for interpretation, but on this specific point, just like with the Caedus quote, I believe you’re approaching it from a narrow point of view. Not all writers or readers look at SW from a “power levels” prospective. What do I mean? Vader can be a threat to Sheev in ways different from power. Just wanted to add this point since it’s related to the debate we’re having, if only to a degree. 

But wait: 

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.