Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

April 11th 2020, 11:20 pm

Uh oh. Cue Anthony blitzing this thread

April 11th 2020, 11:39 pm

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Ziggy wrote:If Kueller is being considered doesn't Kun get auto placed above him.

Why would that be?

You already know full well why:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2955p25-top-fifteen-tournament-12-alliance-commander#56099

April 11th 2020, 11:43 pm Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

It will probably be half-a-week until I can respond, but to clarify something in the meanwhile, note Matt Martin's tweet would mean literally no EU sourcebook/encyclopedia/article is canon besides segments that introduce new story content. Considering that Martin has no authority over nor knowledge of the EU continuity, his tweets cannot even dictate Disney continuity, it is explicitly refuted by every actual EU continuity official including Chee who says such sources are in-continuity, and it would discredit like 85% of all arguments made on this forum, it is not a valid debunk of the Malak quote on any level and kind of sleazy.

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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 1419419311

It would also mean there's no reason for Kun to scale above past Sith (vote TULAK HORD) and it would discredit well over half of all the quotes on AP's Kun respect thread. Though, considering you (AP) are advancing this argument, I trust you will soon delete all quotes from JA Sourcebook, TCSWE, SW.com, the Essential Guides, Fact File, COTOR, and other any non-story reference content off your RT? Let me know when you do that so I know you are serious about this new position.

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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 2960029119

April 11th 2020, 11:49 pm

DarthAnt66 wrote:and it would discredit like 85% of all arguments made on this forum,

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 3344068304

April 11th 2020, 11:55 pm

Yeah, no. He's saying blogs, articles, etc. get thrown out entirely as part of any continuity. This is in direct reply to being shown the article. His statement of WOTC not being Canon means it is Legends, as he clarifies. Which he still has full authority over as Legends is encompassed by Canon but isn't 'true'. Matt Martin's been working at Lucasfilm since 2007 and has grown ever higher in rank within the company. He is the Creative Executive of the company. He dictates whatever he wants, you don't get to define his current role with past quotes from him in other positions

April 12th 2020, 12:08 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, no. He's saying blogs, articles, etc. get thrown out entirely as part of any continuity. This is in direct reply to being shown the article. His statement of WOTC not being Canon means it is Legends, as he clarifies. Which he still has full authority over as Legends is encompassed by Canon but isn't 'true'. Matt Martin's been working at Lucasfilm since 2007 and has grown ever higher in rank within the company. He is the Creative Executive of the company. He dictates whatever he wants, you don't get to define his current role with past quotes from him in other positions

Lol. He's saying "non-story content" and providing blogs and articles as examples. You know what else is "non-story content"? Literally everything besides story content--all sourcebooks, guides, magazines, etc. And, indeed, that is the actual stance of Disney Canon--they don't think non-story content is Canon--but it's never been the policy of the EU. Quote me where it says Martin has the individual authority to regulate Legends continuity (him being on the Story Group doesn't mean his comments represent the decisions of the Story Group, which Pablo has stated about himself), not to mention he has stated none of his tweets can be taken as Story Group policy.

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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 3366773415

April 12th 2020, 1:49 am

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Ziggy wrote:If Kueller is being considered doesn't Kun get auto placed above him.

Why would that be?

You already know full well why:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2955p25-top-fifteen-tournament-12-alliance-commander#56099

Here is the quote:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Two of the greatest. Not the two greatest. "Two of" indicates that there are more than two that are the greatest. This is not even getting to the specifics of what exactly is being compared here, which is rather unclear.

The quote given does not cap Kueller in any way under Kun.

April 12th 2020, 2:07 am

Vaylin for me.

April 12th 2020, 11:34 am

@EmperorCaedus Is that actually the quote that everyone has been using to say that Kun > Kueller? ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 815462187

April 13th 2020, 12:31 am

DarthAnt66 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, no. He's saying blogs, articles, etc. get thrown out entirely as part of any continuity. This is in direct reply to being shown the article. His statement of WOTC not being Canon means it is Legends, as he clarifies. Which he still has full authority over as Legends is encompassed by Canon but isn't 'true'. Matt Martin's been working at Lucasfilm since 2007 and has grown ever higher in rank within the company. He is the Creative Executive of the company. He dictates whatever he wants, you don't get to define his current role with past quotes from him in other positions

Lol. He's saying "non-story content" and providing blogs and articles as examples. You know what else is "non-story content"? Literally everything besides story content--all sourcebooks, guides, magazines, etc. And, indeed, that is the actual stance of Disney Canon--they don't think non-story content is Canon--but it's never been the policy of the EU. Quote me where it says Martin has the individual authority to regulate Legends continuity (him being on the Story Group doesn't mean his comments represent the decisions of the Story Group, which Pablo has stated about himself), not to mention he has stated none of his tweets can be taken as Story Group policy.

Actually no. Story-content is the only strict, absolute canon of continuity and we've known this for a long while. Source material is above and beyond the rest of C-canon. Canon has been afforded the 'foggy window' analogy. Non-story content isn't part of continuity but it isn't non-canon. His tweets literally explain this. They are part of the EU but aren't continuity/story-telling.

Legends comes under the umbrella of Disney Canon, I've explained this. Matt Martin is Creative Executive, his job is literally management and research for Legends and Canon material.

April 13th 2020, 12:48 am

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Ziggy wrote:If Kueller is being considered doesn't Kun get auto placed above him.

Why would that be?

You already know full well why:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2955p25-top-fifteen-tournament-12-alliance-commander#56099

Here is the quote:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Two of the greatest. Not the two greatest. "Two of" indicates that there are more than two that are the greatest. This is not even getting to the specifics of what exactly is being compared here, which is rather unclear.

The quote given does not cap Kueller in any way under Kun.

How are you this dense? That's not what that argument means at all and you know this because it's been explained to you, by me, three times. Kueller is not a focal point/dark side nexus, Palpatine and Exar Kun are. Luke Skywalker deems this the defining point at which someone was too powerful for him to defeat as of DE and surrenders to the dark side. But thank you, because now you will experience the full power of the Kun wank.

The cap for Kueller as you explained is Return of the Jedi Palpatine. Who was not at this point of strength yet, it's by DE that Palpatine achieves that level of power i.e. becoming a dark side nexus. Not just a nexus but among the greatest Luke ever faced. Kun is similarly a nexus and similarly among them. Kueller isn't.

And yes, this means Exar Kun is more powerful than Return of the Jedi Palpatine but obviously not as powerful as DE.

April 13th 2020, 12:51 am

Vaylin

April 13th 2020, 1:39 am

The lord of hunger wrote:going kueller

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:kueller

Geistalt wrote:Kueller.

Gianfi wrote:Kueller

Please read my above post to note Kun's superiority to Kueller.

April 13th 2020, 2:51 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

LadyKulvax wrote:Kueller is not a focal point/dark side nexus, Palpatine and Exar Kun are.

It's almost as if you ignored my initial response. Again, Palpatine and Exar Kun are two of other dark side focal points, not the only two, and not the greatest. There is no definitive way you can say Kueller isn't a focal point, because there are other focal points that weren't mentioned in the quote.

Luke Skywalker deems this the defining point at which someone was too powerful for him to defeat as of DE and surrenders to the dark side. But thank you, because now you will experience the full power of the Kun wank.

Now that you mention it, let's talk about the context. Luke was harkening back to times where he was tempted into turning to the Darkside by dark-siders, these dark-siders that were in his life are the first he thinks of when falling to the Darkside due to them being responsible for the most horrific actions caused to him. It's not the Darkside's power, it's the evil actions that were caused. Sheev was responsible for his father's turn to the dark side, turning him into the evil Darth Vader, and even turning Luke himself to the Darkside. The other, Exar Kun, was responsible for Luke's most talented students, including Kyp Durron, turning to the Darkside and literally destroying star-systems.

Now it makes sense why Kueller wouldn't pop up first in Luke's mind. Kueller was one of Luke's students that was misguided, he fell to the Darkside due to personal loss, not a reborn Sith'ari and ancient Sith spirit that are only in it for the power and chaos. Sure, he did his fair share of heinous acts, but it's not something Luke would ultimately think at first when Luke thinks of Darksiders that ruined his timeline.

The cap for Kueller as you explained is Return of the Jedi Palpatine.

I don't think I've ever said that. Kueller is capped at RotJ Palpatine as of mid-novel, before Luke even engages in the two duels with him. Kueller explicitly has no cap in his power, as he can literally feed on other's rage and grow infinitely stronger, something that will definitely happen when Kueller faces Malgus. As Kueller's base is already perceived as "invincible" to a rage-amped Luke, he will only grow way more stronger when fighting Malgus.

Who was not at this point of strength yet, it's by DE that Palpatine achieves that level of power i.e. becoming a dark side nexus. Not just a nexus but among the greatest Luke ever faced. Kun is similarly a nexus and similarly among them. Kueller isn't.

Here is the other problem. Luke has only ever sensed JA Kun when he was a weakened state, and is explicitly mentioned as sub-Luke at that time. Again if we use the correct context lenses, it wasn't Kun's sheer raw might that was the problem, it was how to exactly to fight a strong ancient Sith spirit with esoteric abilities Luke had no idea about, who was turning Luke's most talented students to the Darkside.

The main point to draw from this is the Specter's of the Past quote seems to be speaking about the concept of the Darkside itself and what it means for Luke. Turning to the Darkside would have devastating effects, making him turn into a power-hungry monster akin to Kun and Sheev.

And to make matters worse, the quote isn't even comparing them to one-another. There could be a large gap between the two and you would never know it from that quote. If two of your greatest evils are DE Sheev level and RotS Sheev level then both would still be incredible examples of raw might, though not necessarily close. Exar Kun and DE Sheev don't have to be equal for the quote to work, just as DE Sheev and RotS Sheev don't

And yes, this means Exar Kun is more powerful than Return of the Jedi Palpatine but obviously not as powerful as DE.

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You are arguing this quote is a comparison of power between Kun and Sheev, so why not put them as equal? Kun was either directly compared to prime DE Sheev in raw power or he wasn't. You are seriously telling me a weakened JA spirit Kun who was explicitly sub Luke is equal in raw dark nexus level powers to a prime DE Sheev? If you're not putting stock in your own quote then I fail to see the importance of it. Claiming he is "obviously less powerful then Sheev as of DE" just points out the massive flaws in what this quote is suggesting, with your logic.

What you are doing is allowing us to shift weakened Kun anywhere we want below DE Sheev, and Kun can wind up anywhere on the scale that is at-least above RotJ Sheev. How convenient for you, isn't it? The implications being a prime TOTJ Kun would be significantly beyond RotJ Sheev, which is explicitly against the lore and infinite amount of supremacy quotes Sheev has as of RotJ.

TL;DR for readers:

- Sheev and Kun are noted as two of other Darkside focal points in Luke's life, meaning there are more that are not mentioned in this quote. Therefore, there is no definitive way you can say Kueller is not a Darkside focal point based on the Specter's of the Past quote.

- Being a focal point of the Darkside =/= being a dark-side nexus.

- Exar Kun and Sheev are not even compared to one-another

- Kueller is only explicitly capped below RotJ Sheev as of the mid-novel, AKA before he grows infinitely more powerful than this.

- AP is arguing a weakened spirit Kun is anywhere between RotJ Sheev and DE Sheev, the implications being a prime TOTJ Kun would be significantly beyond RotJ Sheev, which is explicitly against the lore and infinite amount of supremacy quotes Sheev has as of RotJ.

April 13th 2020, 4:51 am

It's almost as if you ignored my initial response. Again, Palpatine and Exar Kun are two of other dark side focal points, not the only two, and not the greatest. There is no definitive way you can say Kueller isn't a focal point, because there are other focal points that weren't mentioned in the quote.

1.Them being two of the greatest isn't the point of argument. It only widens the gap.

2.Proof that Kueller is a focal point? Because otherwise I'm going to assume Coleman Trebor is a light side nexus, don't need evidence mind you. Cus who needs evidence in debates?

Now that you mention it, let's talk about the context. Luke was harkening back to times where he was tempted into turning to the Darkside by dark-siders

Factually incorrect, the context is the Force sending him a vision of Exar Kun and Palpatine as a warning to not abuse his full power. They are two of the greatest focal points he ever had to face, in the context of power. I literally have the pages in which this quote is made saved to my phone. You can't claim that this quote is not about raw power when that's literally what the vision is for.

I don't think I've ever said that. Kueller is capped at RotJ Palpatine as of mid-novel, before Luke even engages in the two duels with him.

The problem comes in trying to argue Kueller's growth puts him passed this softcap. If you can't do that then I'm right.

Here is the other problem. Luke has only ever sensed JA Kun when he was a weakened state, and is explicitly mentioned as sub-Luke at that time.

The only Kun iteration confirmed to be beneath Luke is Kun being woken up. Once Kun gains strength Kun is confirmed to be capable of defeating Luke by himself:

Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

In-fact Kun is literally binding Luke's spirit to him with his power:

Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

****

Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

And the very case you make for Kueller also uses a quote that states Kun is also more powerful than Luke as of New Rebellion:

New Rebellion wrote:She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

As far as Luke only sensing weakened Kun goes, Luke can literally feel Kun's presence prior to Kun and Kyp yeeting his spirit:

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

And to make matters worse, the quote isn't even comparing them to one-another. There could be a large gap between the two and you would never know it from that quote. If two of your greatest evils are DE Sheev level and RotS Sheev level then both would still be incredible examples of raw might, though not necessarily close. Exar Kun and DE Sheev don't have to be equal for the quote to work, just as DE Sheev and RotS Sheev don't.

You're arguing with yourself here. The comparison between ROTJ Palpatine and Exar Kun comes from the fact that DE Sheev's power is directly correlated with him now being a dark side nexus. The difference is so big that Luke Skywalker concedes literally any chance at being able to stop him. Now I am not saying Exar Kun is a nexus as powerful as DE Sheev, I am saying Kun is confirmed to be one in the first place which ROTJ explicitly is stated not to be. This is a direct power comparison.

You are arguing this quote is a comparison of power between Kun and Sheev

That isn't the argument at all. You need to up your reading game. Luckily I've just explained it for you.

The implications being a prime TOTJ Kun would be significantly beyond RotJ Sheev, which is explicitly against the lore and infinite amount of supremacy quotes Sheev has as of RotJ.

Yeah if you weren't aware, that's not how this works. Sheev Palpatine's supremacy quotes are specifically not grounds for absolute fact and for doing what you're trying to do:

Dave111283(Darth Sexy): Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

Captain Yossarian: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

Tasty Taste (Leland Chee): Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

- Sheev and Kun are noted as two of other Darkside focal points in Luke's life, meaning there are more that are not mentioned in this quote. Therefore, there is no definitive way you can say Kueller is not a Darkside focal point based on the Specter's of the Past quote.

Yes, because Luke has been to many planets that have their own respective dark side nexus. You need to actually prove Kueller is a focal point. The burden of proof lies on you, not me.

- Being a focal point of the Darkside =/= being a dark-side nexus.

This might take the award for dumbest statement so far. Nexus and focal point mean the same thing, they're synonyms of one another.

- Exar Kun and Sheev are not even compared to one-another

Directly? No. Indirectly? Yes. That's the entire point of the argument.

before he grows infinitely more powerful than this.

I'll assume you're massively exaggerating.

AP is arguing a weakened spirit Kun is anywhere between RotJ Sheev and DE Sheev, the implications being a prime TOTJ Kun would be significantly beyond RotJ Sheev

Yes, I am. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 1019854026

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin - Page 2 1019854026

April 13th 2020, 7:49 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I'll have more detailed response out soon, but for now I'd just like to point out that you explicitly contradict yourself.

You're arguing with yourself here. The comparison between ROTJ Palpatine and Exar Kun comes from the fact that DE Sheev's power is directly correlated with him now being a dark side nexus. The difference is so big that Luke Skywalker concedes literally any chance at being able to stop him. Now I am not saying Exar Kun is a nexus as powerful as DE Sheev, I am saying Kun is confirmed to be one in the first place which ROTJ explicitly is stated not to be. This is a direct power comparison.

- Exar Kun and Sheev are not even compared to one-another in power

Directly? No. Indirectly? Yes. That's the entire point of the argument.

As I've explained above, with the correct context lenses, it is clear this is not a power comparison, but rather, visions of what Luke would become if he turned to the Darkside - an evil, power-hungry, monster. At this point in Specter's of the Past, he believes that they're winning, and are quite literally laughing at him. These two impactful Darksiders in his life are the first he thinks of when falling to the Darkside due to them being responsible for the most horrific actions caused to him. Sheev corrupting both his Father and himself and turning both to the Darkside, and Kun grooming Luke's students on Yavin into turning to the Darkside, and turning against the Jedi order. The visions are not about the power that was wielded by Sheev and Kun, it's about the evil that they've committed, and what Luke would become if he followed in their steps.

AP is arguing a weakened spirit Kun is anywhere between RotJ Sheev and DE Sheev, the implications being a prime TOTJ Kun would be significantly beyond RotJ Sheev.

Yes, I am.

One last thing, I guess you seemingly acknowledge that ToTJ Kun being >> RotJ Sheev, or significantly beyond RotJ Sheev is a ridiculous stance. But if any of it were rooted in some level of truth, he would be already ranked on the list. The truth is, Kun is still sub Malak and buried under the TOR scaling chains, as proven by Ant, Bran, and others.

April 13th 2020, 8:03 am

It's not a contradiction, you're just woefully incapable of comprehending basic words. Per the Endnotes, Luke Skywalker turns to the dark side upon the realisation that the reborn Palpatine has become a dark side nexus as opposed to when he faced him during the battle of Endor. Exar Kun is also a dark side nexus like reborn Palpatine, becoming a nexus is directly tied to a level of power given Luke's realisations related to Palpatine's raw power. The greater context of the focal points quote isn't relevant, the confirmation that Exar Kun is a nexus is. I don't understand how you can possibly misunderstand this point.

Ridiculous stance based on what? You can actually try proving that if you like. It won't end any better for you than the rest of this will.

I don't know if you've genuinely been paying attention but the Malak quote is far from the absolute you think it is. Don't get involved in arguments you're not even part of. They've proven nothing thus far.

April 15th 2020, 9:50 am

Bump. Let's bring in more votes

April 15th 2020, 12:26 pm

Wanna go Caedus but there's no chance anybody votes his way this round so throw me down for Vaylin.

April 15th 2020, 6:36 pm

Vaylin

April 15th 2020, 9:46 pm

Kueller

April 17th 2020, 2:32 pm

Bump. Any more votes?

April 18th 2020, 3:59 am

who is winning?

April 18th 2020, 3:46 pm

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April 18th 2020, 3:50 pm

If you ask me, Kueller deserves to be above Mace and Yoda.