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EmperorCaedusLevel Three
★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 8:26 am
VOTE FOR THE #4 GREATEST STAR WARS DUELIST!
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Anakin Skywalker
3. Yoda
4. ?
This will be a less formal version of the Top Fifteen Tournament and directed toward ranking the greatest Star Wars duelists.
RULES
Vote for the character that would most likely defeat the next three hypothetical contenders. For example, would Anakin Skywalker be more likely to defeat Mace Windu, Palpatine, and Yoda than Yoda would be more likely to defeat Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, and Palpatine, etc.? Characters can only physically attack and defend by way of a lightsaber and their body. Force usage is limited to establishing and enhancing durability, perceptions, physicals, senses, etc. All characters will be operating at their peak actualized iteration barring circumstantial or momentary amps. Irek Ismaren is banned, and Mace Windu is operating at his peak Episode III level.
GUIDELINES
A thread titled "Top Ten Duelists Tournament #1" will be created. Members can vote and are welcome to debate other members to change votes. After six days, the votes will be tallied. Members will then choose between the two most voted upon characters. After four days, the winner will be ranked as #1 on our list.
[hideedit]
- EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 8:29 am
A Mini-Case for Kueller
Luke > Sidious:
Luke defeats the Reborn Emperor, at the height of his powers physically and in the Force, in a lightsaber duel. Luke was “too strong” for Sidious and Leia sensed in the Force that the Light Side defeated the Dark.
Luke was "too strong" for the Reborn Emperor, and "struck off his hand"
There is no reason to suggest his saber capabilities have decreased since Revenge of the Sith, and even if they have, his significantly heightened force augmentation nullifies any slight decrease, if any, in ability.
Luke Growth:
Luke undergoes massive growth in power since Dark Empire, and as a result his force augmentation.
Kueller > Luke:
Luke by this point is a fair bit more powerful and skilled than the one he fought as of Dark Empire. In this fight, Kueller demonstrates superiority in sabers by use of his increasing augmentation. Click the spoiler tag for the full fight:
As highlighted in red, the battle is characterized as a dramatic step-up from Luke’s final duel with Vader. This time, now a far more powerful Luke again fights “like a man possessed” with anger and a “sureness he has never felt before.” Moreover, the battle's intensity is likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," but Kueller’s mannerisms are then explicitly differentiated from “Vader’s stentorian breathing” and likened to “the Emperor’s greedy gasping" repeatedly.
As highlighted in blue, Kueller feeds off Luke’s hatred throughout the fight, and his augmentation is progressively getting stronger. By its end, Leia believes Kueller is seemingly “invincible,” and Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered saber blows. Luke eventually recognizes the only way he can win is if he lets himself die.
Note that Luke is still not back to full power during this fight. However, Luke actively tries to heal these injuries as best he can, and practices Jedi exercises in preparation for the fight. Moreover, being rage-amped likely significantly nullified these handicaps, as he fought "like a man possessed" and with a "sureness he has never felt before." Take into account that Luke was "well matched" and it was "a battle of equals" when fighting Vader in Return of the Jedi, then when Luke received this same rage-amp, he stomped Vader accordingly.
Conclusion:
- Luke was "too strong" for a peak Reborn Emperor in sabers, who is by above his RotS iteration
- Luke undergoes massive growth from DE to NR
- Kueller is "too strong" for Luke in a saber duel
- Luke still loses even with the rage amp he receives in RotJ
- Luke eventually recognizes the only way he can win is to an-hero
Mandatory Scaling Chain:
Kueller > NR Luke >> DE Luke > DE Sheev >> RotS Sheev
Kueller definitely takes this round, Vote Kueller
Luke > Sidious:
Luke defeats the Reborn Emperor, at the height of his powers physically and in the Force, in a lightsaber duel. Luke was “too strong” for Sidious and Leia sensed in the Force that the Light Side defeated the Dark.
Dark Empire Audiodrama wrote:LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!
Luke was "too strong" for the Reborn Emperor, and "struck off his hand"
There is no reason to suggest his saber capabilities have decreased since Revenge of the Sith, and even if they have, his significantly heightened force augmentation nullifies any slight decrease, if any, in ability.
Luke Growth:
Luke undergoes massive growth in power since Dark Empire, and as a result his force augmentation.
I,Jedi
The Jedi Master looked at me and I felt electricity run through his blue-eyed gaze.
When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.
The Jedi Academy: Jedi Search
Luke nodded somberly. The question had been working at the back of his own mind, and he had pondered it deeply. "I can only say that we have seen these terrible examples, and we must learn from them. I myself have touched the dark side and come through stronger and more wary of its powers than ever before. I agree there is a risk, but I cannot believe the New Republic will be safer without a new force of Jedi."
Black Fleet Crisis: Before The Storm
"Once the Force was to me like a whispered voice on the wind, " Luke said, standing and looking back toward the Great Temple. "Obi-Wan taught me to hear it, and Yoda to understand it. I trained myself to hear it no matter where I was. And in my turn I taught others to hear and understand. But I have not been hearing that voice well of late, though my hearing is more acute than ever. There is too much noise. There is too much I must screen out. There are too many questions, too many demands. Everyone seems to be shouting at me. It's painful, and tiring. "
Kueller > Luke:
Luke by this point is a fair bit more powerful and skilled than the one he fought as of Dark Empire. In this fight, Kueller demonstrates superiority in sabers by use of his increasing augmentation. Click the spoiler tag for the full fight:
- Spoiler:
- Luke dodged as Leia's lightsaber sailed in the air toward him, landing neatly in his fingers.
Immediately he ignited the blade and its reassuring hum echoed in the growing darkness.
"Ah," Kueller said. "So you have chosen to fight me. Careful, Master Skywalker. If you do so with the wrong attitude, you might join my side."
"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."
"Years ago, Skywalker. You've become complacent." Kueller slashed at Luke. Luke parried, the electric clash of blades ringing in the night air.
Then Kueller whirled and blocked several bursts of blaster fire. Leia peeked out of the bay doors.
"Leave him alone, Kueller. It's me you want!" she yelled.
His death mask glowed from an internal light. It made his smile even more sinister than usual. "Actually, President, I want your entire family. Without them, there are no true Jedi." Luke inched closer. His blade was still out, still humming. He wanted Kueller to fight him, not Leia. Leia wasn't ready yet. "Actually, Kueller, there are dozens of Jedi now."
"But not Jedi Masters, Skywalker."
"There are more than you imagine," Luke said, thinking of Callista. She would provide quite a battle against Kueller, even without the Force.
Kueller turned to Luke, and Leia fired again. Without even looking at her, Kueller blocked the blaster shots. The shots flew harmlessly to the sides. Then her blaster rose in the air, and exploded a few feet above her head.
"Use another of those, President, and it will explode in your hand."
"You like explosions, don't you, Kueller?" she said. Luke suppressed a smile. She was trying to distract him so Luke could attack. But it wasn't that easy. Kueller had pushed Luke far enough that Luke's feelings were confused. He wasn't certain if he was going after Kueller out of anger or hatred, instead of in defense. That would only make Kueller stronger.
He seemed to be stronger anyway, giving credence to Luke's theory.
"Small explosions, President," Kueller said, his blade still locked with Luke's. "Large ones destroy wealth." Leia stepped out of the bay. She was unarmed. "Even if you kill us, Kueller, you won't get the rest of us. The explosives you put in the droids won't work. We shut the droids off."
"Did you, now?" Kueller's tone was mocking. Luke could feel the physical pressure Kueller was putting on the blade. They were locked in a battle of wills, their strength holding the blades together in a haze of light. "You managed to tell all the developed planets about the droids, President? Because if you didn't, then I will still get enough strength from one single order to defeat you all. " A chill ran through Luke. All those lives. All those billions of lives. They meant nothing more to Kueller than a breath of air, a surge of adrenaline, a swallow of food. Anger flowed through Luke, deep and fine and rich. He had created this monster. Luke, through his arrogance, had given Kueller all the tools he needed to destroy the entire galaxy. If Luke hadn't taught all his students about the dark side, if he hadn't warned them repeatedly and in detail about the quick and easy path, then Kueller would still be Dolph, not this hateful being who wore a death mask proudly and dealt in lives as a smuggler dealt in stolen goods.
Kueller turned toward Luke and grinned. His lightsaber broke free from the enmeshment and whooshed near Luke. Luke jumped aside, pain shivering through his back, and down his arms.
Kueller had suddenly gotten stronger.
"Kueller!" Leia shouted. She held another blaster. He turned his attention to her, and Luke thrust his blade toward Kueller's side, drawing blood before Kueller swirled away.
Easy blood. The lightsaber moved with a sureness Luke had never felt before.
Leia's blaster was turning red. She tossed it aside before it exploded, and rolled in the opposite direction.
Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.
It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.
Luke staggered under Kueller's next blow, and barely managed to roll aside. His ankle kept buckling under him, but he forced himself to put weight on it. They had moved into the alleyway Luke had seen in that strange moment of vision. Stones littered the ground all around them, and the light only came through a small opening on either end. Luke could no longer see Leia.[hideedit]
Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.
Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.
Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.
Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.
Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.
Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still.
Luke glanced at the mouth of the alley.
No Leia.
He was alone with this thing he had created. The rogue student. The Vader to his Ben.
Vader.
Ben.
Luke grinned. He suddenly knew what he had to do to break free.
---
It was Luke's name.
And she said it in a voice that Han had never heard before, but he knew what it meant.
It meant he was too late.
Her hands were useless, and Kueller was no longer listening to her arguments. He was watching Luke.
Luke, who looked like a man possessed.
Luke, who had always warned her not to give in to anger, was giving in to his.
And Kueller was smiling. He seemed to be growing taller, and broader, the aura of power around him so great that it made him seem invincible.
Then a look passed across Luke's face. It was a familiar look, but it wasn't his. She had seen it before.
On the day she met him, so many years ago.
She had seen that look the only time she had seen Obi-Wan Kenobi alive. He had been fighting Darth Vader, and then he smiled, and raised his lightsaber--and Vader cut him in half. His lightsaber's blade faded, the hilt spinning through the air before landing on his empty, steaming cloak.
Luke had said Obi-Wan believed that moment made him stronger, but really it had only made him dead.
Dead.
Leia stumbled a few steps forward. Luke didn't see her in the growing darkness. Kueller hesitated as Luke slowly raised his light-saber blade toward his face.
Just as Obi-Wan had.
Kueller smiled.
Just as Vader must have.
"Luuuuuuuuuuke!" Leia screamed as Kueller brought his lightsaber up, preparing to strike.
---
Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.
Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.
Luke's lightsaber had reached a thirty-degree angle with his chin when he felt as if he were wrapped in a warm, soft blanket. He could still see through his eyes, but the rest of his senses were suddenly dim. He could no longer sense Leia or even Kueller.
His blade came up, and Kueller's blade swung back, but Luke couldn't leave his own body. He had lost the Force. It was gone. He was blind and numb without it.
He would die without it
Kueller's blade came down, and Luke limped out of the way only to back into the ruined tower wall. Kueller had him cornered. There was no place to go.
Luke was trapped, both inside, and out.
As highlighted in red, the battle is characterized as a dramatic step-up from Luke’s final duel with Vader. This time, now a far more powerful Luke again fights “like a man possessed” with anger and a “sureness he has never felt before.” Moreover, the battle's intensity is likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," but Kueller’s mannerisms are then explicitly differentiated from “Vader’s stentorian breathing” and likened to “the Emperor’s greedy gasping" repeatedly.
As highlighted in blue, Kueller feeds off Luke’s hatred throughout the fight, and his augmentation is progressively getting stronger. By its end, Leia believes Kueller is seemingly “invincible,” and Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered saber blows. Luke eventually recognizes the only way he can win is if he lets himself die.
Note that Luke is still not back to full power during this fight. However, Luke actively tries to heal these injuries as best he can, and practices Jedi exercises in preparation for the fight. Moreover, being rage-amped likely significantly nullified these handicaps, as he fought "like a man possessed" and with a "sureness he has never felt before." Take into account that Luke was "well matched" and it was "a battle of equals" when fighting Vader in Return of the Jedi, then when Luke received this same rage-amp, he stomped Vader accordingly.
Conclusion:
- Luke was "too strong" for a peak Reborn Emperor in sabers, who is by above his RotS iteration
- Luke undergoes massive growth from DE to NR
- Kueller is "too strong" for Luke in a saber duel
- Luke still loses even with the rage amp he receives in RotJ
- Luke eventually recognizes the only way he can win is to an-hero
Mandatory Scaling Chain:
Kueller > NR Luke >> DE Luke > DE Sheev >> RotS Sheev
Kueller definitely takes this round, Vote Kueller
CuckedCurryLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 8:35 am
Mace Windu
IGLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 9:04 am
Bart’s shimmra argument is really convincing, I’ll switch to him
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 11:06 am
Mace is good, but so are obi wan, dooku, and sheev. caedus seems appealing as of now. might for him
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 11:13 am
Darth Sidious
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 5:20 pm
imma change to kueller. nobody is going for caedus, so it is what it is
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 5:21 pm
Sheev should be way higher, sheev
- EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 8th 2020, 5:26 pm
I've explained Kueller's direct superiority over Sheev here. There is no reason to be voting for him as of now
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 10:18 am
Scout takes this.
DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 12:18 pm
Let's please take this tourney seriously. And Palpatine.
- GuestGuest
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 12:20 pm
Yes, after some contemplation, I've decided to back Scout.
KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 3:40 pm
Scout
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 7:26 pm
scout
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 7:46 pm
Switching vote to Scout.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine
April 9th 2020, 7:47 pm
switching to Whie
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