Re: Canon Vader vs Canon Dooku

June 1st 2019, 9:40 pm

Jake wrote:It was intended to be Canon, they are released after the date of the split. I am so tired of having this debate with you.

Given we have just as many, if not more quotes quotes claiming the fight was close, I think that view is most likely true. None of these quotes debunk anything I said; The fact that Dooku was eventually outmatched and forced to flee doesn't mean he wasn't operating as a near equal before that. It makes sense that he'd have to abandon the fight faster than Yoda, due to his drained reserves. Master Yoda demonstrably hadn't defeated Dooku at all. Was he disarmed? On his knees? Surrendering? You could perhaps argue that he was about to be bested, which I would agree with, but he wasn't fully beaten.

I'm also tired of having this debate, ngl. The Fact File contents are clearly Legends, referring to events and characters that are only part of that continuity, and the first issues were released before the split. Even then, the fact file states Yoda had "EASILY defeated Dooku", meaning it wasn't difficult for him to get to the point were Dooku had to "flee for his life".

Jake wrote:None of the sources listed imply that at all. We have three/four quotes from the Relaunched Fact Files stating that Yoda was trying to kill Dooku and would have, had the Count not collapsed the crane.

Again, the Fact File is not canon. The Visual Encyclopedia and Prequel Trilogy are though, and they both definitely imply that Yoda was trying only to capture Dooku, the second one making it clear he was only blocking his scape route and not even trying to incapacitate him.

Jake wrote:Absolutely no proof this refers to force power. The quote would seem to be referring to power over the galaxy; "With Vader by his side, Darth Sidious formed the Galactic Empire and took control of the galaxy."

Vader is far more powerful than Dooku or Maul, because he is second in command to the man who has control over entire galaxy.

There's very little point in making a comparison of political power between the apprentices. You are entitled to interpret it that way, though I still disagree and think the real intent of the quote should be pretty clear, as your interpretation, while not impossible, seems overly convoluted.

Jake wrote:The list never indicates its ranking power or skill, only popularity. Using RPG stats as a yardstick is embarrassing and shameful, given that they share the same canonicity in Legends, but no one uses them seriously as we'd have to accept that Meetra Surik is above Master Yoda or Darth Bane is on par with Mace Windu. None of this is reflected in the lore and historically, these stats have been all over the place. Vader's own thoughts have been addressed - and aren't enough on their own.

The list doesn't indicate the ranking refers to popularity either. It's just a list of the top red lightsaber wielders, with a description of their fighting styles. Again, the less convoluted assumption is that the list is referring to duelling skill, more so considering Kylo Ren is more popular than Ventress yet he isn't in the list.
Matt Martin confirmed that they revise the current RPG and that it is as close to canon as you can get. That means that while it may not be perfect, it's still something to take into account. Treatment of other RPGs in Legends is of no concern to me.

Jake wrote:Are you using this to claim there's some implication of growth, because there isn't. I'm taken aback by how terrible this argument is, all of it.

Don't act like I myself didn't admit it wasn't definitive evidence of growth. I still mentioned it because, again, it's the less convoluted interpretation. Why mention that Vader had become a powerful Sith Lord if he was less powerful than the last time they met? You could maybe find some explanation, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward.

All of this discussion boils down to that in the end. If you want to get picky, then you might be able to find alternative explanations for:
-Vader being stated more powerful than Dooku.
-Vader being ranked higher in a lightsaber wielder list.
-Vader being statted better than Dooku in the Story Group revised RPG.
-Vader thinking himself more powerful than Anakin.
-Vader having become a powerful Sith Lord in his final duel with Obi-Wan.

Still, the most straightforward, less convoluted interpretation for any of those is that Vader > Dooku, and you only need to interpret one of those in Vader's favour for him to be superior.

I'm siding with Occam's razor.

June 1st 2019, 9:44 pm

Kilius wrote:@Rohirrim

Has the PT junior novels been confirmed to be Canon? I know the OT JN were reedited and released to fit with Disney canon so they certainly are but I don't think merely rereleasing means the PT is - otherwise the Del Ray novelizations would be and they have been confirmed not to be.

I think so. They were re-released under Disney Press, with no Legends banner: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Prequel_Trilogy

June 1st 2019, 11:04 pm

Rohirrim wrote: I'm also tired of having this debate, ngl. The Fact File contents are clearly Legends, referring to events and characters that are only part of that continuity, and the first issues were released before the split. Even then, the fact file states Yoda had "EASILY defeated Dooku", meaning it wasn't difficult for him to get to the point were Dooku had to "flee for his life".

It's probably a good idea to drop the ridiculous point then, isn't it? It features Legends material in some issues, and Canon in others. The sections I've used are based on Dooku's performance in the movie, which is Canon, so the Fact File side-debate isn't even relevant to this discussion.

Yoda didn't defeat Dooku though, did he? Ergo, that quote is null and void right out of the gate. The facts are; Dooku is capable of fighting Yoda as a near equal, before being forced to flee. We can attribute Yoda's 'victory'/Dooku's departure to having more reserves available to him at the fight's commencement, due to the Count's previous engagements robbing him of much of his own;

"The battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku, though he was a former Jedi Master and renowned lightsaber duellist."

-- Fact File v3 #57

1) Yoda forcing Dooku to flee does not contradict the idea that he was fighting on par for much of the duel.
2) Yoda opting to attempt to capture an exhausted Dooku is contradicted by the Fact Files and likewise does not conflict with the idea that he was fighting on par for much of the duel. Capturing Dooku is likely easier for Yoda than killing him, as it would force him to focus on aiming for the harder-to-defend legs as opposed to the well-guarded head and gut regions.
3) Yoda 'defeating' Dooku is irrelevant, and does not conflict with him being a near equal throughout the fight.

Rohirrim wrote: Again, the Fact File is not canon. The Visual Encyclopedia and Prequel Trilogy are though, and they both definitely imply that Yoda was trying only to capture Dooku, the second one making it clear he was only blocking his scape route and not even trying to incapacitate him.

It is Canon. Those quotes refer to the end of the fight, and imply Yoda was trying to capture Dooku after his reserves ran out, which is perfectly reasonable, but also doesn't disprove the notion that he was attempting to skewer Dooku during the earlier portion of the duel.

These things can be mutually exclusive; Yoda attempted to kill Dooku while they were locked in heated combat, but as the Count's stamina began to flag, he was no longer a threat and a simple capturing would suffice. Why would Yoda kill an exhausted, powerless Dooku? That doesn't seem very Jedi-esque. Also, nothing prohibits Yoda from injuring Dooku; cutting off his legs and capturing him, and this would actually be easier for Master Yoda than beheading an adversary, when you take into account his short stature. So even this line of thinking makes Dooku look good, perhaps better than my interpretation.

This is just one avenue of thought, if we take your quotes as valid. It really doesn't matter which viewpoint you pick, I win, and so does Dooku.

Rohirrim wrote:There's very little point in making a comparison of political power between the apprentices. You are entitled to interpret it that way, though I still disagree and think the real intent of the quote should be pretty clear, as your interpretation, while not impossible, seems overly convoluted.

I mean, this is what the Sith have strived to achieve for centuries; ruling over and having complete control of the galaxy, and Vader is one of the top guys doing exactly that. It's less about the quote referring to political power, and more just power in general. It seems far more convoluted to twist a quote referring to control over the galaxy and attempt to frame it as meaning force power specifically... The image itself implies the quote refers to galactic power as well.

Rohirrim wrote:The list doesn't indicate the ranking refers to popularity either. It's just a list of the top red lightsaber wielders, with a description of their fighting styles. Again, the less convoluted assumption is that the list is referring to duelling skill, more so considering Kylo Ren is more popular than Ventress yet he isn't in the list.
Matt Martin confirmed that they revise the current RPG and that it is as close to canon as you can get. That means that while it may not be perfect, it's still something to take into account. Treatment of other RPGs in Legends is of no concern to me.

It's almost certainly not referring to duelling skill, and this couldn't be more apparent. Dooku is described as having spent "a lifetime honing his elegant lightsaber dueling skills." It's nearly impossible to be more skilled than a duelling prodigy who has spent a literal lifetime (80+ years) honing his lightsaber skill, with lessons and direction from two of the greatest teachers (and fighters) in history. At least 2 of 3 characters listed ahead of Dooku have far less skill than him.

If it's not notoriety or skill, it has to be force power then, right? Good luck making a convincing case for why a list titled 'Top 5 Red Lightsaber Wielders' is actually referencing the power of the individuals. Another possibility is that it's number of fights, or notoriety within the universe itself, both of which are more plausible than it relating to power or skill.

Leland Chee is on record saying the exact same thing; RPG stats are canon within Legends, and it's not reflected in any material. This is relevant to bring up, given the logic is the same in this case. Until I see more than soft, paper thin implications or RPG stats that Vader is a step above, I'm inclined to place Dooku - and even Maul - a step above him. Actual fights depicting a dominant performance against high tiers would be preferable, like we see with Dooku.

Rohirrim wrote: Don't act like I myself didn't admit it wasn't definitive evidence of growth. I still mentioned it because, again, it's the less convoluted interpretation. Why mention that Vader had become a powerful Sith Lord if he was less powerful than the last time they met? You could maybe find some explanation, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel, shamelessly. The quote would imply that Vader wasn't already a powerful Sith Lord the last time he and Kenobi fought, which simply isn't true. We can interpret this quote as Pre-Suit Vader being weak (False), or that Vader is just a powerful Sith Lord, nothing at all implies growth.

Rohirrim wrote:All of this discussion boils down to that in the end. If you want to get picky, then you might be able to find alternative explanations for:
-Vader being stated more powerful than Dooku.
-Vader being ranked higher in a lightsaber wielder list.
-Vader being statted better than Dooku in the Story Group revised RPG.
-Vader thinking himself more powerful than Anakin.
-Vader having become a powerful Sith Lord in his final duel with Obi-Wan.

Still, the most straightforward, less convoluted interpretation for any of those is that Vader > Dooku, and you only need to interpret one of those in Vader's favour for him to be superior.

I'm siding with Occam's razor.

You admit yourself that all of these points are paper thin, but they've been dealt with regardless. Simply listing them off at the end isn't an argument. I take into account quality over quantity, and looking at Dooku's performances and further growth, he impresses me far more than whatever this mess is.

June 2nd 2019, 5:18 am

Jake wrote:It's probably a good idea to drop the ridiculous point then, isn't it? It features Legends material in some issues, and Canon in others. The sections I've used are based on Dooku's performance in the movie, which is Canon, so the Fact File side-debate isn't even relevant to this discussion.

Yoda didn't defeat Dooku though, did he? Ergo, that quote is null and void right out of the gate. The facts are; Dooku is capable of fighting Yoda as a near equal, before being forced to flee. We can attribute Yoda's 'victory'/Dooku's departure to having more reserves available to him at the fight's commencement, due to the Count's previous engagements robbing him of much of his own;

No, as it features Legends only material in some parts, it's pretty clear it wasn't revised by the Story Group for canon and so it's Legends in its entirety.

Your second point I already addressed, Yoda easily defeating Dooku means he effortlessly got the fight to the point where Dooku understood he had to flee. That is what defeating means in this context, and so the quote is valid within the Legends continuity. It's not relevant to this debate, but it's still something to point out.

Jake wrote:1) Yoda forcing Dooku to flee does not contradict the idea that he was fighting on par for much of the duel.
2) Yoda opting to attempt to capture an exhausted Dooku is contradicted by the Fact Files and likewise does not conflict with the idea that he was fighting on par for much of the duel. Capturing Dooku is likely easier for Yoda than killing him, as it would force him to focus on aiming for the harder-to-defend legs as opposed to the well-guarded head and gut regions.
3) Yoda 'defeating' Dooku is irrelevant, and does not conflict with him being a near equal throughout the fight.

Yoda attempting to capture Dooku does not contradict anything in canon, only the Legends Fact File. No, Yoda wasn't even trying to incapacitate him as per Prequel Trilogy, merely blocking his scape.

Jake wrote:Those quotes refer to the end of the fight, and imply Yoda was trying to capture Dooku after his reserves ran out, which is perfectly reasonable, but also doesn't disprove the notion that he was attempting to skewer Dooku during the earlier portion of the duel.

These things can be mutually exclusive; Yoda attempted to kill Dooku while they were locked in heated combat, but as the Count's stamina began to flag, he was no longer a threat and a simple capturing would suffice. Why would Yoda kill an exhausted, powerless Dooku? That doesn't seem very Jedi-esque. Also, nothing prohibits Yoda from injuring Dooku; cutting off his legs and capturing him, and this would actually be easier for Master Yoda than beheading an adversary, when you take into account his short stature. So even this line of thinking makes Dooku look good, perhaps better than my interpretation.

This is just one avenue of thought, if we take your quotes as valid. It really doesn't matter which viewpoint you pick, I win, and so does Dooku.

There is nothing indicating a change of heart in Yoda mid-fight. The quote states he was merely blocking Dooku's scape in order to capture him, going out of his way to say that Yoda didn't pursue him when he backed away because of this.

Jake wrote:I mean, this is what the Sith have strived to achieve for centuries; ruling over and having complete control of the galaxy, and Vader is one of the top guys doing exactly that. It's less about the quote referring to political power, and more just power in general. It seems far more convoluted to twist a quote referring to control over the galaxy and attempt to frame it as meaning force power specifically... The image itself implies the quote refers to galactic power as well.

The more straightforward interpretation is that Vader was more powerful in the Force, and that this helped Palpatine seize control of the galaxy. It's even debatable wether Vader or Dooku had more political power, considering Vader was more of an agent than a political figure known to the populace such as Grand Moff Tarkin.

Jake wrote:It's almost certainly not referring to duelling skill, and this couldn't be more apparent. Dooku is described as having spent "a lifetime honing his elegant lightsaber dueling skills." It's nearly impossible to be more skilled than a duelling prodigy who has spent a literal lifetime (80+ years) honing his lightsaber skill, with lessons and direction from two of the greatest teachers (and fighters) in history. At least 2 of 3 characters listed ahead of Dooku have far less skill than him.

If it's not notoriety or skill, it has to be force power then, right? Good luck making a convincing case for why a list titled 'Top 5 Red Lightsaber Wielders' is actually referencing the power of the individuals. Another possibility is that it's number of fights, or notoriety within the universe itself, both of which are more plausible than it relating to power or skill.

Leland Chee is on record saying the exact same thing; RPG stats are canon within Legends, and it's not reflected in any material. This is relevant to bring up, given the logic is the same in this case. Until I see more than soft, paper thin implications or RPG stats that Vader is a step above, I'm inclined to place Dooku - and even Maul - a step above him. Actual fights depicting a dominant performance against high tiers would be preferable, like we see with Dooku.

Oh, it could be way more apparent the list is not referring to skill.You can get more skilled than Dooku indeed, that's how Anakin defeated him in RotS. I'm not here to discuss the Legends RPGs, all that matters in this debate is the current one, which doesn't contradict the canon lore.

Jake wrote:Scraping the bottom of the barrel, shamelessly. The quote would imply that Vader wasn't already a powerful Sith Lord the last time he and Kenobi fought, which simply isn't true. We can interpret this quote as Pre-Suit Vader being weak (False), or that Vader is just a powerful Sith Lord, nothing at all implies growth.

It's convoluted to interpret that Vader is just a powerful Sith Lord because the quote says he "had become" a powerful Sith Lord, the most simple interpretation being that he did so in the interim since the last time they met. That would mean the quote is comparing him to Mustafar Vader, which would be "weak" only in the context of this comparison.

Jake wrote:You admit yourself that all of these points are paper thin, but they've been dealt with regardless. Simply listing them off at the end isn't an argument. I take into account quality over quantity, and looking at Dooku's performances and further growth, he impresses me far more than whatever this mess is.

Each point by itself is not absolutely definitive. There is very little that is in SW debating. Still they all point to Vader being superior to Dooku in their most straightforward interpretation. By itself, just one of them represents, say, a 60% chance that they mean Vader is superior, and when they start to pile up that percentage goes up accordingly. Again, Occam's razor is in Vader's favour.

June 3rd 2019, 5:55 am

In-sidiousvader wrote:

The Cosmic Force wrote:

In-sidiousvader wrote:

GodEmperorTarkin wrote:Vader.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

Technically yes

The list the almighty list claims that Vader is above two people before dooku

There's 0 proof the list is even factoring in Force augmentation into its dueling ranking and based on logic it shouldn't be given Sidious's feats utterly eclipse Vader's who is ranked above him on the list. Moreover, Vader being better than Sidious and Maul who are both above Dooku doesn't put him leagues beyond Dooku given you haven't provided any reasoning why there aren't small gaps between the characters.

Why does it have to mean dueling? It just says top 5 overall red lightsaber weilders

The author confirmed that its only referring to lightsaber skill. RGR or Heathen might have the quote.

June 3rd 2019, 7:52 am

Out of curiosity, why would a list talking about lightsaber skill talk about that skill in a vacuum where these people have no Force augmentation (a situation that has never existed)? That makes little sense. If all of them were bereft of the Force, their skill with a lightsaber, their ability to employ one in battle, would be as follows: Vader would probably be rendered useless by his physical impairments, Sidious and Dooku would feel the enormous weight of their years, and Ventress would be second only to Maul.

June 3rd 2019, 8:28 am

@ILS Those are some reasonable queries. I don't know about the quote in question, but if we do go by the logic that it's a ranking of pure skill, then maybe it doesn't factor physical strength either.

June 3rd 2019, 9:05 am

Might mean their skill if their augmentation was equalised?

June 3rd 2019, 9:14 am

If you alter their physical condition or Force connectivity in any way then it also alters their skill. Again, nothing about the list indicates that it is considering their lightsaber abilities in a vacuum separate from Force sensitivity or if they all had equal Force connectivity.

June 3rd 2019, 9:15 am

Well yeah, but honestly I don’t think they thought that deep about it.

June 3rd 2019, 12:05 pm

Still Dooku tbh.

June 10th 2019, 1:24 pm

Vader Immortal alone had Vader shake his entire castle with his rage. He's a fair bit more powerful, but Dooku is more skilled and faster. If Dooku can close the gap or spam lightning he wins. If not, Vader.

June 10th 2019, 1:44 pm

Vader.

November 16th 2019, 5:15 pm

Vader slaps

November 16th 2019, 5:16 pm

vader already surpassed anakin in canon 5 years after ROTS. his prime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.

December 2nd 2019, 5:50 pm

Vader is flat out better in canon

December 2nd 2019, 5:54 pm

Vader destroys

December 2nd 2019, 6:03 pm

Canon Dooku sucks, Vader wins

December 2nd 2019, 6:04 pm

Interesting that people have such high opinions of Vader's superiority. All the more reason to get my SS post up.

December 2nd 2019, 6:06 pm

do it -sheev

April 27th 2020, 7:20 am

Standard rules

April 27th 2020, 7:25 am

Vader.

April 27th 2020, 7:27 am

Vader

April 27th 2020, 7:29 am

Latham2000 wrote:Vader.

April 27th 2020, 10:29 am

vader