Canon Vader vs Canon Dooku

May 31st 2019, 1:38 pm

I know this is a bit unoriginal.
But it's very clear there is a good amount of people who believe Legends Dooku can take Legends Vader.
If this was purely canon only, who wins?

May 31st 2019, 1:40 pm

Canon Vader probably still dies tbh.

May 31st 2019, 1:42 pm

Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

May 31st 2019, 1:46 pm

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

"Confirmed."

May 31st 2019, 1:48 pm

DC77 wrote:Canon Vader probably still dies tbh.

Canon only, so ignoring Lucas's statements and other secondary sources as they do not apply.

May 31st 2019, 1:49 pm

Vader.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

May 31st 2019, 4:58 pm

The list hath already spoken

May 31st 2019, 5:17 pm

Vader, no question.

May 31st 2019, 6:08 pm

GodEmperorTarkin wrote:Vader.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

Technically yes

The list the almighty list claims that Vader is above two people before dooku Canon Vader vs Canon Dooku 1076326320

May 31st 2019, 6:25 pm

Vader, actually. In canon he is far stronger (relative to his contemporaries) than he was in Legends, which I appreciate.

May 31st 2019, 6:34 pm

SithArchaeologist wrote:Vader, actually. In canon he is far stronger (relative to his contemporaries) than he was in Legends, which I appreciate.

You know if we can at least agree canon vader Is powerful, I offer the olive branch, put er there partner

May 31st 2019, 6:55 pm

In-sidiousvader wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Vader, actually. In canon he is far stronger (relative to his contemporaries) than he was in Legends, which I appreciate.

You know if we can at least agree canon vader Is powerful, I offer the olive branch, put er there partner

Vader's one of my favorites, lol. Love the new Vader comics. They've got the most "Legends-y" feel of anything released in canon aside from maybe Rogue One.

May 31st 2019, 8:36 pm

In-sidiousvader wrote:

GodEmperorTarkin wrote:Vader.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

Technically yes

The list the almighty list claims that Vader is above two people before dooku

There's 0 proof the list is even factoring in Force augmentation into its dueling ranking and based on logic it shouldn't be given Sidious's feats utterly eclipse Vader's who is ranked above him on the list. Moreover, Vader being better than Sidious and Maul who are both above Dooku doesn't put him leagues beyond Dooku given you haven't provided any reasoning why there aren't small gaps between the characters.

May 31st 2019, 8:49 pm

The Cosmic Force wrote:

In-sidiousvader wrote:

GodEmperorTarkin wrote:Vader.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader is confirmed to be leagues above dooku in canon

Technically yes

The list the almighty list claims that Vader is above two people before dooku

There's 0 proof the list is even factoring in Force augmentation into its dueling ranking and based on logic it shouldn't be given Sidious's feats utterly eclipse Vader's who is ranked above him on the list. Moreover, Vader being better than Sidious and Maul who are both above Dooku doesn't put him leagues beyond Dooku given you haven't provided any reasoning why there aren't small gaps between the characters.

Why does it have to mean dueling? It just says top 5 overall red lightsaber weilders Canon Vader vs Canon Dooku 2960029119

May 31st 2019, 9:59 pm

I know that Vader's rep in Canon is very high, but Dooku is a near equal to Master Yoda while tired before 3 years of growth.

June 1st 2019, 12:15 am

Jake wrote:I know that Vader's rep in Canon is very high, but Dooku is a near equal to Master Yoda while tired before 3 years of growth.

My dude, canon has so many things going against Dooku for this matchup tho. Canon (which features the ROTS Novel) has Vader above Canakin, like the amount of quotes placing him above canakin are too numerous. Vader >> Canakin > dooku is an irrefutable chain

June 1st 2019, 12:22 am

Can I see some of the Vader > Anakin quotes?

June 1st 2019, 12:47 am

Regarding the infamous list, has it been explicitly confirmed that it was ranking duelling ability specifically?

The fact that we don't know the reasons for the placements of Maul over Dooku and Vader over Sidious, outside of statements like; "Maul uses his double-bladed lightsaber to create a terrifying vortex of energy!" make this list unreliable to use on its own.

Given the presentation and content, it seems to be referring to notoriety. Putting Asajj Ventress above Savage Opress, and Vader ahead of Palpatine, seem to support this interpretation. I could be wrong, but I've yet to see evidence that this is anything more than a 'most popular' list.

June 1st 2019, 12:57 am

Jake wrote:Can I see some of the Vader > Anakin quotes?

As of right now I can only provide you with one, but it should be solid enough to sway you
VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

It seems to be possibly OOU, and even if it isn't there are most certainly more, but I am on my phone right now, I can get some more on my PC.

June 1st 2019, 1:11 am

That definitely sounds IU. I see nothing of substance here, just the typical 'dark sider says more anger means more power ergo I am stronger' trope. This is a common theme with Vader in Legends also; himself feeling stronger, but OOU sources stating the polar opposite.

Vader can feel as if his force strength has increased, but I'm going to need proof that he can properly utilise all of it with his new suit acting as a barrier. This quote on it's own isn't enough for me to be convinced.

June 1st 2019, 2:06 am

I am far more impressed with Dooku's standing relative to Yoda, than Vader's shaky, self-assessed growth over Anakin based solely on his superior 'spirit.' The Count is able to contend as a near equal to Yoda for a time whilst tired, before eventually being outclassed and forced to flee;

"Dooku was already tired from his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker when Yoda arrived."

-- Fact File v3 #71

"Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former Padawan."

-- Fact File v3 #34

"Dooku is surprised when his old master, Yoda, arrives. After equalling each other with feats of Force power, they ignite their blades and clash in an explosive duel. Yoda's acrobatic style is matched by Dooku's finesse and the fight ends with Yoda electing to save Obi-Wan and Anakin from death rather than defeat his old Padawan."

-- 2017 Journey to Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Trading Card #112

Dooku grows even more powerful than this during the war

"Dooku's powers grew noticeably during the Clone Wars."

-- Fact File v3 #78

Up until Revenge of the Sith, where he is more powerful than ever before

"But before they can escape, they come face-to-face with a determined Count Dooku, who is more powerful than ever."

-- 2015 Topps Star Wars Journey to the Force Awakens #12 Rematch with Dooku

Unless I see these kinds of performances from Vader, I'm inclined to back the Count here.

I'm aware of the new 'Galaxy of Adventures' short that depicts Dooku as being half as powerful as Master Yoda, but I feel it far more 'honest' and 'correct' to refer to the highest Canon depiction of the fight; the movie, and all of the secondary sources that reference it, instead of a quick video made for kids that omits important details.

June 1st 2019, 7:51 am

The relaunched Fact File is not canon, as a quick look through some of its contents would tell you. Even if you want to make an argument against this, as I've seen some people do (rather unconvincingly, IMO), the Fact File still states Yoda was the clear superior:

Obi-Wan and Anakin faced certain death under Count Dooku's lightsaber, and it was only the timely arrival of Yoda that saved them. The Master's skills outstripped even those of Dooku and the Count was forced to flee for his life.

-Fact File v3 #60.

Though Yoda had easily defeated Count Dooku on Geonosis, Darth Sidious was an entirely different prospect.

-Fact File v3 #67.

Now, on to the real canon sources, Yoda's been stated to have outright defeated Dooku:

When Dooku becomes a threat to galactic peace, Yoda leads an army of clone troopers against Separatist forces on Geonosis and defeats Dooku in lightsaber combat.

-Ultimate Star Wars.

Dooku was also forced to flee:

Yoda fights Count Dooku on Geonosis, forcing his former student to flee.

-Ultimate Star Wars.

It is only the last minute intervention of Yoda that saves them. Dooku is forced to flee, but his work is done.

-Star Wars Galactic Atlas.

Most importantly, Yoda didn't have lethal intent in the fight, only trying to capture Dooku:

Although the Republic is victorious, slippery Separatist leader Count Dooku escapes when Yoda is forced to choose between saving Anakin and Obi-Wan's lives, or capturing Dooku.

-Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia.

Yoda rescues Obi-Wan and Anakin, but Count Dooku evades capture.

-Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia.

The re-released junior novelization also has Yoda only blocking Dooku's escape route, not even trying to incapacitate him:

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

-Star Wars: Prequel Trilogy.

Then again, there's also the Galaxy of Adventures clip and the accompanying quote that states Yoda is twice as powerful as Dooku, though admittedly that should be taken with a grain of salt, IMO.

As for Count Dooku vs Darth Vader, there really is no debate to be had. Vader's feats and statements are far greater than Dooku, including a straightforward comparison that really speaks for itself:

-Star Wars: I am a Sith.

So Vader is directly stated to be far more powerful than Dooku. Not that this should come as a surprise considering a plethora of sources, including the AEYNTK list, his superior stats in the FFG roleplaying game (which btw is revised by the Story Group) or Vader's musings in LOTS about his power being greater than Anakin's, a notion that might also be implied (it's somewhat ambiguous, but it all points in the same way) in other book:

Obi-Wan eventually fought Darth Vader one last time. Vader had become a powerful Sith Lord, and struck down his former teacher.

-Journey to Star Wars The Last Jedi: Power of the Force.

Pretty much everything in canon is on Vader's favour.

June 1st 2019, 8:13 pm

Rohirrim wrote:The relaunched Fact File is not canon, as a quick look through some of its contents would tell you. Even if you want to make an argument against this, as I've seen some people do (rather unconvincingly, IMO), the Fact File still states Yoda was the clear superior:

It was intended to be Canon, they are released after the date of the split. I am so tired of having this debate with you.

Given we have more quotes quotes claiming the fight was close - and the one's 'contradicting' this stance can be rationalised away as referring to the very end of the fight - I think that view is most likely true. None of these quotes debunk anything I said; The fact that Dooku was eventually outmatched and forced to flee doesn't mean he wasn't operating as a near equal before that. It makes sense that he'd have to abandon the fight faster than Yoda, due to his drained reserves. Master Yoda demonstrably hadn't defeated Dooku at all. Was he disarmed? On his knees? Surrendering? You could perhaps argue that he was about to be bested, which I would agree with, but he wasn't fully beaten.

Rohirrim wrote:Most importantly, Yoda didn't have lethal intent in the fight, only trying to capture Dooku

None of the sources listed imply that at all. We have three/four quotes from the Relaunched Fact Files stating that Yoda was trying to kill Dooku and would have, had the Count not collapsed the crane.

Rohirrim wrote:Then again, there's also the Galaxy of Adventures clip and the accompanying quote that states Yoda is twice as powerful as Dooku, though admittedly that should be taken with a grain of salt, IMO.

If not outright thrown out, did you even read anything on this thread?

Rohirrim wrote:As for Count Dooku vs Darth Vader, there really is no debate to be had. Vader's feats and statements are far greater than Dooku, including a straightforward comparison that really speaks for itself:

-Star Wars: I am a Sith.

Absolutely no proof this refers to force power. The quote would seem to be referring to power over the galaxy; "With Vader by his side, Darth Sidious formed the Galactic Empire and took control of the galaxy."

Vader is far more powerful than Dooku or Maul, because he is second in command to the man who has control over entire galaxy.

Rohirrim wrote:So Vader is directly stated to be far more powerful than Dooku. Not that this should come as a surprise considering a plethora of sources, including the AEYNTK list, his superior stats in the FFG roleplaying game (which btw is revised by the Story Group) or Vader's musings in LOTS about his power being greater than Anakin's,

Pretty much everything in canon is on Vader's favour.

The list never indicates its ranking power or skill, only popularity. Using RPG stats as a yardstick is embarrassing and shameful, given that they share the same canonicity in Legends, but no one uses them seriously as we'd have to accept that Meetra Surik is above Master Yoda or Darth Bane is on par with Mace Windu. None of this is reflected in the lore and historically, these stats have been all over the place. Vader's own thoughts have been addressed - and aren't enough on their own.

Rohirrim wrote:a notion that might also be implied (it's somewhat ambiguous, but it all points in the same way) in other book:

Obi-Wan eventually fought Darth Vader one last time. Vader had become a powerful Sith Lord, and struck down his former teacher.

-Journey to Star Wars The Last Jedi: Power of the Force.

Are you using this to claim there's some implication of growth, because there isn't. I'm taken aback by how terrible this argument is, all of it.

June 1st 2019, 8:31 pm

Jake slaughtering.

June 1st 2019, 9:10 pm

@Rohirrim

Has the PT junior novels been confirmed to be Canon? I know the OT JN were reedited and released to fit with Disney canon so they certainly are but I don't think merely rereleasing means the PT is - otherwise the Del Ray novelizations would be and they have been confirmed not to be.

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