Darth Vader vs TPM Windu

@ant u deleted that poor, dumbass emoji smh

@SithSauce: Lucas has made many comments about the superior skill, agility, and overall combat viability of the TPM Jedi over the OT Jedi. 

@lorenzo.r.2nd: The emoji was a typo.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@SithSauce: Lucas has made many comments about the superior skill, agility, and overall combat viability of the TPM Jedi over the OT Jedi. 

@lorenzo.r.2nd: The emoji was a typo.

man, that sucks. sheev wan an old man too. fuck. well, guess he's below TPM kenobi in skill too. i expected so much more from him.

@lorenzo.r.2nd: To paste from another thread, so some stuff may seem out-of-context:

Lucas says we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting" and that this will be reflected by a "much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" in TPM. That's referring to Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan -- they're the only two Jedi fighting. So, Lucas does not classify Qui-Gon in the "old men" category nor TPM Obi-Wan in the "young boys" category, for he's contrasting those categories with Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan specifically. Evidently and demonstrably, being an "old man" or "young boy" alone does not preclude one from being "a Jedi in his prime fighting." Rather, there must be qualities associated with the "old men" (i.e. ANH Darth Vader, Ben Kenobi) and "young boys" (i.e. ROTJ Luke) categories of the OT that are absent from the PT (or vice versa). As Meatpants said, that's about how TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are both hyper fast (unlike the OT's "old men") and hyper skilled (unlike the OT's "young boys"), hence the overarching emphasis on super improved choreography in all facets.

Applied to Palpatine, Dooku, or Yoda, Lucas has already clarified they're with/are the PT heavyweights, unlike Ben and Vader who aren't. 

@ant ngl, that was so wordy i had to read some of it twice. Well, at least now i know that he meant that the jedis that were fighting were in their prime, and not that the jedi back then were the prime of the jedi as a whole, which is interesting. 

Interestingly enough, this only seems to imply that Qui Gon and Kenobi are faster than Vader and Ben. Well, at least from the comment above.

The obvious implication here is they couldnt do what they did with TPM to the OG movies. They didnt have those blur effects from when Kenobi and Qui Gon ran away, or the jumping and rolling. Oh wait, Mark couldve done that. Why didnt he? Oh yeah, The guy in the Vader suit could barely walk down the stairs, thats why. So he couldve made Luke hyper fast and hyper skilled using some outdated methods, but what limited him was time and budget. Hhmm, yeah, this seems to be very movie directed/based, and not lore directed/based, tbh. 

So the idea that them being weak/slow cuz they are old men/young boys is faulty per Lucas's own words, and the idea of them being not as skilled cuz they are old men/young boys is faulty per Lucas's words, simply because the TPM movie itself debunks this idea (Kenobi is a young, skilled boy, and Qui Gon is an old, fast man).

Idk what else to say to u aside from that. I mean, Vader was younger than Qui Gon, but for no well explained reasons is he slower or less skilled. His machinery is treated like a physical power boost by both legends and canon, with its on restraints being a big dump on his agility. Ben Kenobi was weaker, slower, and less skilled because of rustiness... but this is something that more or less every old character in the lore has surpassed or overcome. Yoda and Sidious are quite obvious examples. As for something else, Obi Wan is not as rusty as he is made out to be, as we know that he had his short lived adventures, and some continuous training with the force. This is basically explaining Yoda lol

Sorry for the essay

@lorenzo.r.2nd: Lucas regards the out-of-universe filming constraints of the originals as also literal constraints in-universe as well. See Vader moving that slow? Well, he is that slow. “In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.” Note that this quote saying Ben Kenobi and Vader are slow because they're old and broken men was said in 2004-2005, after filming Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda. Yet Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda are repeatedly stated by Lucas to be at the forefront of the prime of the Jedi, necessarily meaning they have overcome the hindrances still weighing down Ben Kenobi and Vader. And that is consistent with everything else we know about the lore. Ben Kenobi is weakened by all the dead Jedi and his broken soul, with greatly deteriorated combat abilities after two decades in hiding. Vader's connection to the Force was greatly weakened by his Mustafar injuries and cybernetics, and likewise his combat abilities were curtailed by his reduced powers and lumbering suit. In contrast, Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda were constantly training, fighting, and growing in power as they grew older, preventing any decline or stagnation. 

Also, note that, per Lucas, Vader gets much better by ESB and ROTJ, as reflected in the superior choreography. Still, he's not as good as Jinn and co.

I don't really interpret it as meaning that all the PT Jedi are > Vader, or that TPM Kenobi necessarily is better. But Qui-Gon and Maul? For sure.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd: To paste from another thread, so some stuff may seem out-of-context:

Lucas says we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting" and that this will be reflected by a "much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" in TPM. That's referring to Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan -- they're the only two Jedi fighting. So, Lucas does not classify Qui-Gon in the "old men" category nor TPM Obi-Wan in the "young boys" category, for he's contrasting those categories with Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan specifically. Evidently and demonstrably, being an "old man" or "young boy" alone does not preclude one from being "a Jedi in his prime fighting." Rather, there must be qualities associated with the "old men" (i.e. ANH Darth Vader, Ben Kenobi) and "young boys" (i.e. ROTJ Luke) categories of the OT that are absent from the PT (or vice versa). As Meatpants said, that's about how TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are both hyper fast (unlike the OT's "old men") and hyper skilled (unlike the OT's "young boys"), hence the overarching emphasis on super improved choreography in all facets.

Applied to Palpatine, Dooku, or Yoda, Lucas has already clarified they're with/are the PT heavyweights, unlike Ben and Vader who aren't. 

You are a good debater, I just don't get how you can come to these conclusions. I mean fair enough if you didn't like the idea of Vader being superior to Revan which is what rooted in your debate against the character. But trying to reach so far to lower him just makes no sense to me. None of these quotes you provided are in relation to Vader's power. And tell please tell me in G-Canon what force feats do Jinn and Kenobi have to their name that surpasses Vader's? Qui Gon and Kenobi can be better than Vader in a combative sense, due to them being younger and not restricted by mobility unlike Vader who is in a heavy suit. But if you factor in force augementation and force power, duels can play out differently. Palpatine is never seen once doing agile kicks or shown the skill and mobility that Darth Maul showed with a saber in TPM. Would that make Palpatine a worse duelist than Maul? I think not. Both Vader and Palpatine have the experience and power in the force that completely trounce on TPM Kenobi who is not even fully formed as a combatant which is alluded to in the TPM Novel. Moreover I asked Pablo Hidalgo around August of 2019 re Vader's power level in relation to the PT characters, and he said Lucas was chiefly referring to their duelling advantage over Vader. Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot to prove it as Pablo deleted his twitter account. But it makes sense that Vader is still formidible and strong despite his decrease in power, as he's hunting jedi left right and center in the period between ROTS and ANH.
 Also let me ask you this. Do you think it makes sense that Ben Kenobi would allow himself to degrade so badly especially since he is supposed to be watching over Luke?

DarthAnt66 wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd: Lucas regards the out-of-universe filming constraints of the originals as also literal constraints in-universe as well. See Vader moving that slow? Well, he is that slow. “In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.” Note that this quote saying Ben Kenobi and Vader are slow because they're old and broken men was said in 2004-2005, after filming Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda. Yet Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda are repeatedly stated by Lucas to be at the forefront of the prime of the Jedi, necessarily meaning they have overcome the hindrances still weighing down Ben Kenobi and Vader. And that is consistent with everything else we know about the lore. Ben Kenobi is weakened by all the dead Jedi and his broken soul, with greatly deteriorated combat abilities after two decades in hiding. Vader's connection to the Force was greatly weakened by his Mustafar injuries and cybernetics, and likewise his combat abilities were curtailed by his reduced powers and lumbering suit. In contrast, Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Yoda were constantly training, fighting, and growing in power as they grew older, preventing any decline or stagnation. 

Also, note that, per Lucas, Vader gets much better by ESB and ROTJ, as reflected in the superior choreography. Still, he's not as good as Jinn and co.

"Yes, Vader and Obi Wan are not only slower than ur normal Jedi, they are also slower than normal humans cuz they are old too" is what is implied if one were to say "See Vader moving that slow? Well, he is that slow". He clearly says that the reason for the slowness was old age and machinery. I already covered some of this in my other comment, hence why ill just say that this kinda proves what i said about what he said.

Yet again, the old men part of what Lucas is faulty because of what he himself shows us in his movies. This is CLEARLY the explanation that he chose to go with when explain the difference in agility. Obi Wan was only in that state because he was rusty and old, according to Lucas, but as i said, Yoda and Sheev suffer from this as well, but they clearly dont show it. He is obviously using the old men argument as a way to go around his shitty budget and outdated technology that couldnt cover the OG movies. Its really very simple. 

Vader has fought more force users than 99% of the verse ever did. Far more than any of the characters u mentioned, bar MAYBE Yoda. He also has machinery supposedly more advanced than the ones that Grievous has. But somehow, he is both unskilled, slow, weak etc. This is exactly why it seems that Lucas was talking about the movie and its choreography, and not the lore of the story. He contradicts himself by doing so.

Vader is not old, he is in his forties. Ben is, iirc, younger than Qui Gon was, and far younger than Yoda. He was rusty just as Yoda and Sheev were, and he kept his force training just like they did, but somehow, he is exempt from Lucas's rule of "age doesn't matter in the PT era".

Vader didnt lose his brain when he was injured, he lost his limbs and a lotta skin. The training he had before stayed with him, and yet, Anakin is far more skilled than he is? Yoda too was rusty, but could completely contend with a dueling-obsessed student of his who tried to kill him at every second of the duel. Said student was 30 or so years older than Ben was. 40 Years older than Vader. But he was jumping around, and he was skilled. Whats the difference? He had CGI and a double, is the difference.

Ngl, im watchin Ozarks at the same time and i kinda lost my train of thought lol sorry

On my phone Rn, but Insider #70 says outright that Maul and Jinn fighting is proof that they’re “far more powerful” than Vader. Thus, Windu scales well above Vader.

Meatpants wrote:On my phone Rn, but Insider #70 says outright that Maul and Jinn fighting is proof that they’re “far more powerful” than Vader. Thus, Windu scales well above Vader.

yes, maul and jinn fight, so they must be >> vader. say, if it wasnt jinn, and it was some other jedi, would he also have been >> vader, since he wouldve fought maul as well?

The quote is saying Maul and Jinn and far more powerful than Vader. End of story. It’s not saying anyone who fights Maul is better than Vader lol

Jinn > vastor confirmed.

Meatpants wrote:The quote is saying Maul and Jinn and far more powerful than Vader. End of story. It’s not saying anyone who fights Maul is better than Vader lol

 Are you referring to this quote MP? Note that Vader is not a jedi so he is exempt from this quote, and Latham already did a debunking of this.

agility = power confirmed. ROTS anakin is kinda stiff, so he must be < ahoska.

@SithSauce: 

None of these quotes you provided are in relation to Vader's power

I agree. Sorry for any confusion, but I specified later on this page that Lucas made comments about specifically Vader's "skill, agility, and overall combat viability" relative to Jinn. Lucas has never explicitly commented on Vader's powers relative to Jinn. C-Canon sources have, though, which is what I was referencing.

 And tell please tell me in G-Canon what force feats do Jinn and Kenobi have to their name that surpasses Vader's? 

I never made this claim. ?

Qui Gon and Kenobi can be better than Vader in a combative sense, due to them being younger and not restricted by mobility unlike Vader who is in a heavy suit. But if you factor in force augementation and force power, duels can play out differently. 

Lucas' commentary concerns what is shown on-screen--the overall combat viability of Vader and Qui-Gon. It's necessarily including Force augmentation. 

Palpatine is never seen once doing agile kicks or shown the skill and furiousity that Darth Maul showed with a saber in TPM. Would that make Palpatine a worse duelist than Maul? I think not. 

Palpatine indeed shows greater speed and skill than Maul. He cuts down three Jedi Masters in a blink and gives Mace and Yoda great fights.

Though, what I think you're getting at is that Qui-Gon's advantages doesn't necessarily make him a better duelist than Vader. I disagree. Per Lucas, Qui-Gon is more agile, faster, more skilled, and proof of the "prime of the Jedi." And that last part is in contrast to Luke, Vader's combative equal. What advantages does Vader have? Physical strength? Vader's physical strength isn't allowing him to secure a dominant edge against Ben Kenobi or Luke, so why would that matter against someone who can contend with Maul's ludicrous physical strength? Power? Maybe, but then we have the C-Canon sources clarifying Qui-Gon is more powerful than Vader too, and even "all of Maul's powers" couldn't bring him down either. Qui-Gon just holds almost every card in his favor. The only one I would say definitively goes to Vader is Force mastery. 

 Both Vader and Palpatine have the experience and power in the force that completely trounce on TPM Kenobi who is not even  fully formed as a combatant which is alluded to in the TPM Novel.

Palpatine, yes. Vader? His mastery of the Force is certainly far beyond TPM Kenobi's or almost anyone else's in the mythos. Power is definitely more debatable--unless you know quotes I don't know--but note I don't think TPM Kenobi is necessarily above Vader anyway. Like Meatpants said, just Jinn and Maul.

 Moreover I asked Pablo Hidalgo around August of 2019 re Vader's power level in relation to the PT characters, and he said Lucas was chiefly referring to their duelling advantage over Vader. Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot to prove it as Pablo deleted his twitter account. But it makes sense that Vader is still formidible and strong despite his decrease in power, as he's hunting jedi left right and center in the period between ROTS and ANH.

And I don't disagree.  

Do you think it makes sense that Ben Kenobi would allow himself to degrade so badly especially since he is supposed to be watching over Luke?

Ben Kenobi is a "shadow of his former self," "older and weaker," "slowed by age," "slowed by lack of practice," "out of practice," has not "fought another lightsaber-wielder in many years," "not the duelist he once was," "a warrior turned into an old man overnight by sorrow and grief," "heart broke over and over as Jedi after Jedi was hunted down and killed," "could still hear the death-screams echoing in the Force," etc. So, regardless if it makes sense (which it does), we know he very badly degraded, yes.

Ant, are you responsible for the formation and spread "Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi" argument?

lol

I'm not of the opinion that Vader is below TPM Kenobi. Most of my comments about Vader have been in relation to his vast inferiority to Anakin and parity with Luke.

the most powerful jedi ever? agreed

DarthAnt66 wrote:I'm not of the opinion that Vader is below TPM Kenobi. Most of my comments about Vader have been in relation to his vast inferiority to Anakin and parity with Luke.

As for the amount of quotes affirming Vader's inferiority to Anakin in the Force, can you tell how many there are? I'm not asking you to dump them in this thread because I've seen all of them before, but not all in one place, just name them all, at the top of my head there 6, but I feel like there are more.

DarthAnt66 wrote:I'm not of the opinion that Vader is below TPM Kenobi. Most of my comments about Vader have been in relation to his vast inferiority to Anakin and parity with Luke.

Are you still of the opinion that he is below Starkiller? I know many here don't hold that stance just curious if you do?

huge necro thread 
once again not even if latham debunked that quote people would still use that argument /:

Ant wasn't using the quote to argue that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, and I am far too tired for to have another exchange. It took more 4, perhaps 5 hours, to deconstruct KingofBlades' post.