Darth Vader V Exar Kun

@DarthAnt66 

A very rough list based only on Force power:

As I said, this is a very rough list, most of it just thrown together. I might change it in a bit.

someone watches pewds/mark

Vader mayybbee makes top 30.

KingofBlades wrote:Vader mayybbee makes top 30.

If you have Dooku or Starkiller but not Vader in your top 20/30 I swear...

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:someone watches pewds/mark

Who?

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Heard different things about this feat so I'm wary of putting him higher for now. 

You heard different things about the Ravager feat or you heard different things about the Planet feat? If the former, then you're keeping him low - though still ranking him - via the Ravager feat requiring context. That's fair of course, but that's ignoring that he literally eats a Convocation of almost every notable Jedi in the Galaxy at the time and kills them all. It's also pretty heavily applied to his own power. Considering he did it on a planet where the only tech available pretty much crashed into a planet and everything got hit by a massive wave that crushed a huge space battle - which Nihilus survived getting hit by.











If the latter, well besides Unseen, Unheard it's pretty explicitly stated that it was Nihilus who did it. Here:










But I mean, if you're questioning both feats, then it begs the question of why would you even rank Nihilus in the first place? What feats exactly are you counting? Him ragdolling Traya when she was residing on a geyser of dark side energy?

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:If Luke was heavily weakened I don't see why this would put Kueller in the top 10.

It's not about ranking Kueller in the top 10, it's about whether or not he could be considered as a rival, or even above Vader. Yes Luke was weakened, but Luke is a massive force tank. It means that Kueller isn't above BFC!Luke, not that he's weak as a result in the grand scheme of things. That being said:





Notice in all of these quotes that he's not compared to Darth Vader but rather they shoot up a tier or 10? You can question his ability to beat out the Sheevperor, but neither Mara nor Luke decided that he compared to Vader - Vader who didn't exactly hide his power.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Wasn't Luke exhausted? Wasn't she also invisible during her fight with him?  

Why question her feats now?

"1. Luke.
2. Sidious.
3. Valkorion.
4. Nyax.
5. Yoda/Mace Windu/KFV/Darish Vol.
6. Plagueis/Outlander.
7. Vaylin (unchained)/Vitiate.
8. Gethzerion
9. Talzin.
10. Unuthul.
11. Lomi Plo.
12. Joruus.
13. Revan (SoR).
14. Exar Kun.
15. Dooku/Vader."

He was literally fighting her Force Net though so it really wouldn't matter if she were invisible... ?

Honestly, I just don't want to go check the novel right now. HPitis has kicked in, so I'm not sure. The fact that you conceded her placement makes me complacent as well. I guess we'll never know.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Going to need scans or links for all of these.

3:11 for the last video on Obi-Wan/Kit

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Seems a bit too unsubstantial to use.

RF77
Fair

Just giving you another name that you can possibly wank. Considering you only care about Vader doing Vader stuff, I see that was a bad choice. Would it have worked if I said that Vader was smoothing out hyperspace turbulence instead?

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that his scaling is all over the place. In one book he's equal to Vader by ROTJ and surpasses him after, by another he's far superior. Then we have another saying Vader could have stomped Luke in the Force, and then Dark Empire for example suggesting DE Luke < ROTJ Vader. We also have have another source suggesting Kyp w/ Kun's spirit ~ ROTJ Vader. It's all over the place and I want no part in using it for scaling.

Do you know what we also have? A bunch of statements that state they were equal in ROTJ and a fight where you admit Vader was losing like every aspect of it. Here's a couple more for good measure. I know you saw the last post of this too. Think of this as an addendum.

"In The Empire Strikes Back it’s the first time that the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other. So that it is a very big fight and Luke now has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it’s a slightly one-sided sword fight where Vader has the advantage over him. Luke didn’t know that Vader was his father for the fight part, so that what was happening was he though he was fighting his bitter enemy. So he was fighting as hard as he could; he was fighting the man who killed his father; fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi; fighting the man who would personify evil in the universe. And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation. In the next one, the Return of the Jedi, he knew he was fighting his father. He knew that the Emperor was behind all this. And he knew the issues he was dealing with were much larger than just the sword fight. And so that sword fight really centered on the more emotional context the sword fight takes place in than the actual fight itself. That was the climax of the film rather than having it be a technological warfare, blow up the Death Star kind of thing, it was really more of a personal fight between a father and son."

--George Lucas, “The Birth of the Lightsaber,” Star Wars: Bonus Material DVD, 2004

Literally none of these counts because Luke underestimates himself while overestimating Vader. In fact, I'm not even sure Luke has ever thought negative of Vaders power for that matter. An in-universe SI comparison - since you loathe Darthant... 66 - would be the Twinz (all of them) never having a negative thing to say about Ant even though he loves Nu-canon and can't contain his love for ROS. They would sooner dump their diluted juice down the drain than admit Ant might have kriff taste.
Actually, there is one statement, but I don't think you'd like having to wank Tenenial so I'll keep it out.

I'm not sure why you would even bring up DE Luke vs Vader as a serious point like it breaks the scaling though. Palpatine - both in-universe and out - thought Luke was going to kill Vader before and after their duel. Him implying Luke could be Vader tier might not be referring to raw power, or just mocking Luke for that matter.



Luke thought Kyp would be the next Vader before he realized Kun was amping him. That was largely based on potential and evil; not him getting his spirit separated by Kypkun.

Much like Nihilus though, why are you ranking Joruus so high when all you have to base him off of is Luke jobbing and being sub-Vader into DE? It seems if you can rank Joruus then you can rank Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke, no? I don't much get it myself, but it seems to work out for you, or does it?

Oh BoDkun, fill me with your fables of how 3 random IU statements make Vader vs Luke in 2 fights incredibly mysterious and we have simply no way of knowing what happened... when we ignore like a dozen quotes explaining their parity. Relent and wank Luke while saying he just jobs like the rest of us. Trying to handwave away all the proof and then limping in with barely anything and going "We simply just don't know. Like I wish we had an answer but we just don't, no one does. This is really weird and I'd accept anything to guide me in one way or the other" isn't going to fly. Like a fly to ISV's mouth; I will catch it.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Also impressive, but like Abeloth she's not a Jedi or Sith.

Neither is Valkorion apparently...  

But that seems like you're moving the goalposts there friend. It was initially Force Users, not Jedi/Sith

"I defend Vader as best as I can, unfortunately the anti-Vader brigade is too strong on SI. Realistically, he should be above most Force users, but he lacks the sheer scale of their feats or the feats he does have get overlooked. He's in my top 20 Force users for sure, probably even top 15 and maybe even top 5."

See. Force Users.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Impressive Jaden feat, but for all we know that sword had expended most of its energy summoning that army unless there's evidence to the contrary.

As soon as the sword broke the connection was severed across the galaxy. The Swords original and really only purpose was to revive Marka Ragnos anyway. Tavion wouldn't use up all its power to empower a bunch of random dudes and bros. If you want to delve further in this we can, but I'll leave it at that for now.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:First feat is impressive but I wouldn't put it above some of Vader's. Second one, Old Daka performed a similar feat despite no other feats to her name. 

Well, could Vader beat two Tavions with Ragnos funneling his power through her while using a Sith Sword with like 12 nexuses (Byss, Barsen'Thor Tomb, Great Temple, Bast Castle, etc)? Then could he do that after Ragnos Tavion becomes Jedi Master level when she was previously on Jedi Knight level? Who knows? Nobody does.

Old Daka is also more powerful than Talzin... who you rank above Vader.

(Credit to Ethan)

So yeah, an Old Daka level feat. Not too shabby.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Depends. Starkiller has comparable environmental and telekinetic feats to most of the people on the list, and Vader completely matched him. He then grew between TFU 2 and ANH, then grew immensely between ANH and ESB, before growing once again between ESB and ROTJ. While as I said before he lacks the same broadness of the feats that others on the list have, by scaling he should be pretty beyond his TFU 2 iteration by ROTJ, which in turn scales him to a much higher level than his feats alone show. Even with feats he's done things like casually thrown around Kaminoan cloning platforms while focusing on Starkiller, displaying absolutely no effort while doing so.

So basically what you're saying is that the only thing that makes this a question is via scaling off of Starkiller even though none of Vader's other feats come close? And when Vader grew from TFU 2 to ANH and then from ANH to ESB he was heavily pressured by a guy who couldn't lift an X-Wing? How peculiar. Would you believe that there's a reasonable explanation for this like Starkiller literally having a power - both in-game and sourcebooks - that give him Destiny Points that help explain his rather extravagant power displays that don't completely contradict every single other feat of Vader? If you're of the mind that maybe Vader could have beaten Luke in one shot based on well... nothing... then I'm sure you have no issue with every one of SK's big feats being explained by dramatic moments and pressure? Pulling down an SK, Salvation, Clones, and the Sheev-walk for instance. All things that required a dramatic life-or-death moment and shift in his mental state of things he thought impossible. As opposed to him fighting rather evenly with Vader and then just edging him out.

No? Just a thought. Respond if you want to delve into this though.

Did you say Kaminoan cloning platforms?
Let's let our minds wander a bit and imagine if we would a source - the only source - that gives weight on Kaminoan cloning platforms. Let us also imagine that it said something like oh I don't know... 70 KG in weight for Kaminoan cloning platforms? If such a source existed, would that be really cool or not very cool? Lukewarm mayhaps?

In any case a 70kg platform is a far cry from tossing around ISDs. And most of the people I mentioned fought Luke anyway, who receives the exact same scaling and benefits that Vader does from TFU2 to ROTJ... and then beyond, so I'm not exactly sure who you're combatting here with this little end statement? Jaden Korr, Nihilus? Neither of which rely on moving an obnoxious amount of weight, though it's a footnote for Nihilus. I'm also not sure why you'd note the growth for Vader being notable while ignoring Luke's growth and stated parity with Vader. Vader grew so much in 4 years after 3 decades of Force Training but Luke's growth - Luke has vastly more potential than Vader - is something we should gloss over? Luke grew to Vader's level then just hit a limit till DE... decreased even, and then probably surpassed him at something... I'd say an exact year but then that would make it real. With Anakin dead, Luke has the most potential out of anyone ever. He grew to Vader level with a couple of months of training. Making note of Vader's growth when he's probably nearing diminishing returns only seeks to raise Luke's growth when he's just starting out. Luke has EVERYTHING to learn. He's not squeezing out gains from where ever he can. Anything he does is adding to his growth. And he's expediting all his growth and focusing it purely into raw power as opposed to knowledge just so he can fight Vader with the best chance he has. Luke has all the doors open for growth while Vader has to fight for every milliliter of added power. His potential for growth is nowhere near Luke's in the same timespan.


Also about Hidden One and bracing:


Luke actually had to root himself much as he did against Unu to proceed. Again, it doesn't matter since he didn't have near this warning or amount of training against Joruus as he did against Hidden One.

Look, we all like Vader here, and no one is saying he sucks. All I'm saying is that your list where he's in the top 20 looks more in danger every post. I don't want to lower Vader. I want you to. I want all of your landmarks to fail and then I want you to look upon a fresh list you typed up where you extend it to top 25 just so you can have Vader at 21. Only then will I be satisfied.

BoD can’t ignore this one

Haven't I been on the record saying Ant has kriff taste?

:>

So no actual response?

Also, Vader doesn’t scale from SK’s TK feats because SK is a TK savant and prodigy, his TK is disproportionately stronger than his other Force abilities and power in the Force by a significant margin.

EmperorCaedus wrote:BoD can’t ignore this one

I dont "ignore" posts. I've been open about the fact that I have a very low attention span (due to irl factors) and lose interest in discussing topics for more than a few posts. I was already losing interest in this one before QD's latest post. I've also been very busy with essays and sorting out a society board and stuff this week and really have not and shouldn't even be posting in topics, let alone responding to walls of text, no matter how well written.

@Quorian Debatist I'll try and get back to this in the next few days. If I don't, you know why. I will say I appreciate the explanation of the Nihilus feats.

@breakofdawn im done with this. https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1861-darth-vader-anakin-skywalker-r-t#36103

Damn, some serious kriff has been going on here. What did I miss?

Might do a battle misconceptions thread about Vader in the next few days depending on how much time I have, so probably won't be responding to stuff for a while.

Interested to see what the misconception is.

@emperorcaedus i kinda finished the respect thread. idk if u wanna look at it or not. took me a long ass time lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:@emperorcaedus i kinda finished the respect thread. idk if u wanna look at it or not. took me a long ass time lol

Can you link it? I only saw the Anakin bits.

just scroll down. the thing was so bad i had to put it in parts lol https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1861-darth-vader-anakin-skywalker-r-t

Have you checked out BoD’s?

me? yeah, i have. we actually have similar points, sicne we used zapan's R.T as sources. have u read mine? i tried not to go crazy with it lol i know some people can make kriff up real bad, so i tried to keep it grounded and simple.

If you copied Zapan's RT, it's plagiarism.

I used his sources, which he does not own so I and everyone else can do whatever they want with, and I also gave him credit too. I don't even think u can plagerise a collection of information lol that's like plagerizing a thesaurus or something lol

@EmperorCaedus I don't like replying to walls of text, especially when my time is so limited until the 6th while I prioritise coursework. If you bothered to read, you'd know that. Please correct me if basic reading comprehension is beyond you.

I dont "ignore" posts. I've been open about the fact that I have a very low attention span (due to irl factors) and lose interest in discussing topics for more than a few posts. I was already losing interest in this one before QD's latest post. I've also been very busy with essays and sorting out a society board and stuff this week and really have not and shouldn't even be posting in topics, let alone responding to walls of text, no matter how well written.

And yet, you still choose to argue on other threads. If you concede, then just let us know.

Not that I need to explain myself to you because you're utterly irrelevant to the discussion, but I argue in other threads because I normally spend about 2 minutes tops on my responses. QD is a good debater and deserves more thought and respect than a hastily written response, which might be standard quality for the likes of you but isn't something I want to do. A wall of text takes longer, and I'm not able to commit rn.

BreakofDawn wrote:for the likes of you