Darth Vader V Exar Kun

You are going to make me write a case, don't you?

HellfireUnit wrote:You are going to make me write a case, don't you?

Yeeeep. 

Spoiler:

I don't even like Vader and yet apparently me and from time to time you, are the only ones defending Vader these days. I wish the Vader defenders would be here like the old days so I could focus on better stuff.

I defend Vader as best as I can, unfortunately the anti-Vader brigade is too strong on SI. Realistically, he should be above most Force users, but he lacks the sheer scale of their feats or the feats he does have get overlooked. He's in my top 20 Force users for sure, probably even top 15 and maybe even top 5.

Yea, Vader wins.

Might actually do a more complete Vader respect thread on here, complete with scaling.

BreakofDawn wrote:Might actually do a more complete Vader respect thread on here, complete with scaling.

Include the Maul quote and how he scales above Maul, who scales above Malak. Then you'll be good.

No.

The thing is everyone wanks their favorite characters and most people do not even try to be objective. I mean Dooku should be my favorite character overally yet I never wanked him. This is how brigade and scalings occur only, not through statements or feats.

HellfireUnit wrote:The thing is everyone wanks their favorite characters and most people do not even try to be objective. I mean Dooku should be my favorite character overally yet I never wanked him. This is how brigade and scalings occur only, not through statements or feats.

Mace, Dooku and Obi-Wan are mine yet I try to be as objective with them as possible. Vader is easier cos I love him as a character but he's not my favourite.

Bod, I'm making a Vader respect thred already

Which is why I said one with scaling and other bits.

If u want me to do it in there too, just ask me

Vader wins, via Maul scaling.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:I defend Vader as best as I can, unfortunately the anti-Vader brigade is too strong on SI. Realistically, he should be above most Force users, but he lacks the sheer scale of their feats or the feats he does have get overlooked. He's in my top 20 Force users for sure, probably even top 15 and maybe even top 5.

Seems odd considering you ranked 15 dudes out of a random ass list above him.

BreakofDawn (away) wrote:Grandmaster Luke - 200+
Sheev Palpatine (Dark Empire) - 200+
Darth Vader (Knightfall) - 150 (160 by Mustafar).
Revan (SoR) - 140.
Darth Krayt (reborn) - 120.
Mace Windu - 160.
Darth Wyyrlok - 110.
Darth Tyrannus - 110.
Darth Vader (RotJ) - 110.
Starkiller (TFU II) - 105.
Yoda (RotS) - 160.
Obi-Wan Kenobi (RoTS) - 110.
Exar Kun - 120.
Darth Bane - 95.
Darth Malgus - 105.
Satele Shan - 95.
The Hero of Tython (outlander) - 145/50.
Kit Fisto - 100.
Valkorion - 200+
Arcann - 120.
Vaylin(unchained) - 140.
Darth Malak (SF) - 120.
Kyle Katarn - 90.
Corran Horn - 90.
Darish Vol - 125.
Lord Nyax - 140.
Jaina Solo - 80.

Missing notables like Nihilus, Kueller, Abeloth, Hidden One, Unuthul, Lomi Plo, Sai Sircu, Fagueis, Talzin, Gethzerion, Joruus, Jorus, Luuke, and of course, Jaden Korr and MOTHER.

So you would have to rank Vader above most of those to get into your top 20, let alone top 5. Interesting to say the least. Some might say very interesting.

@Quorian Debatist 

Seems odd considering you ranked 15 dudes out of a random ass list above him.

List was about Force power and saber skill. His inferior saber skill puts him lower than some of those people, whereas others are simply stronger than him, and then you have people like GM Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, etc. who are both more skilled and more powerful.

Missing notables like Nihilus,

I don't know enough about Nihilus to rank him. He'd probably be top 20

 Kueller,

See above.

Abeloth,

Not a Jedi or Sith so I don't include her.

'Hidden One,

Again, don't know enough about him/her.

unuthul, 

Top 10. 

Lomi Plo,

Stronger than her, IMO. She'd win through versatility, though.

Sai Sircu, Fagueis,

I have no idea who these two are.

Talzin,

She was seemingly losing to/stalemating ROTS Sidious in the seat of her power. She's basically impossible to judge beyond that aside from a brief off-screen duel with TCW Mace where for all we know she used her sorcery (which very few Jedi can counter) to hold her own. 

Gethzerion, Joruus,

Top 10.

Jorus,

No clue.

Luuke,

Legends Luke's feats and scaling is all over the place from ROTJ until about the NJO period so I avoid ranking him.

and of course, Jaden Korr

Stronger than Jaden.

and MOTHER.

No clue. AFAIK her only really impressive feats are lolstomping Korr and telepathically contacting people from across the galaxy.

So you would have to rank Vader above most of those to get into your top 20, let alone top 5. Interesting to say the least. Some might say very interesting.

A very rough list based only on Force power:

1. Luke.
2. Sidious.
3. Valkorion.
4. Nyax.
5. Yoda/Mace Windu/KFV/Darish Vol.
6. Plagueis/Outlander.
7. Vaylin (unchained)/Vitiate.
8. Gethzerion
9. Talzin.
10. Unuthul. 
11. Lomi Plo.
12. Joruus.
13. Revan (SoR).
14. Exar Kun.
15. Dooku/Vader.
16. Krayt.
17. Nihilus.
18. Wyyrlok.
19. Starkiller (TFU 2).
20. Malgus. 



As I said, this is a very rough list, most of it just thrown together. I might change it in a bit.

Still no evidence for Vader’s applicable power being even remotely close to Dooku’s. In AotC, only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda (i.e just Yoda) could survive a Force battle with Dooku, and RotS Dooku is even stronger. Not entirely sure what evidence there is that Vader’s force powers are so potent that only Yoda as of AotC could deal with.

@Meatpants 

Still no evidence for Vader’s applicable power being even remotely close to Dooku’s. In AotC, only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda (i.e just Yoda) could survive a Force battle with Dooku,

Evidence AOTC Mace for example couldn't?

Not entirely sure what evidence there is that Vader’s force powers are so potent that only Yoda as of AotC could deal with.

Just saying: Mace in Shatterpoint, despite being so humble it's grating, believed that he could kill Dooku before the latter could block it. Anakin also briefly challenged Dooku. Besides which, saying "only Yoda" could deal with his power isn't saying much considering that everyone else of note (barring Yoda, who only grew) was vastly pre-prime. I see no reason why Vader couldn't replicate this.

On my phone, but I’ll try and do the best I can to dispel this kriff.

1. The quote literally says only a Jedi master as powerful as Yoda could survive Dooku’s attack. There’s absolutely no reason to believe Windu is Yoda’s equal in the Force as of AotC, or ever. 

2. Anakin challenged Dooku, but it’s later confirmed that Dooku wasn’t going all out against Anakin either. Note also that Anakin is stated around this time to be more powerful than Yoda even by that point, he just can’t control it. In Jedi Quest when he’s still barely a Padawan, he’s performing Force feats that staggers Kenobi on multiple occasions. The guy is the chosen one, don’t bother trying to use him as a defence. 

3. Everything else you said is irrelevant. I’m talking specifically about AotC. Again, the quote I’m referring to says explicitly that only a Jedi as powerful as Yoda can survive a Force attack from Dooku. We know Windu isn’t Yoda’s equal in the Force, so what you’re implying is that Vader is > AotC Windu, considering also that Dooku grows a lot from AotC to Rot. You’re saying Vader ~ RotS Dooku.

Nihilus was eating planets and ragdolling ships out of gravity wells. Imagine killing almost the entire council in any era and then eating them. He also foddered both Sith casually in his game. Seems odd to rank him below Vader.

Kueller was eating so much Darkside for a permanent growth that people feared he'd surpass Sheev. He also was beating rage Luke, although Luke was heavily weakened both times.

Hidden One hit FOTJ braced Luke with lightning - that he blocked with his saber - so hard it threw Luke into a pillar. Joruus failed to replicate this force against a pre-DE Luke.

Lomi Plo had an entire nest backing her and managed to stalemate pre-all-out-sicko mode Luke in a force struggle with her Force Net. She then proceeded to casually one shot Jacen and battle Luke well.

Sai casually one shot S1 Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto at the same time. She also did well against Mace Windu and Anakin. She ragdolled Dooku and Ventress at the same time, albeit a cheapshot.

Plagueis.

Jorus was smoothing out hyperspace turbulences, and seen as powerful enough that Sheev wanted to ensure he died. Though a lot is predicated on his Clone's later power but Jorus himself had pretty much fallen to the Darkside at the end so the gap shouldn't be too large.

So should Luke be less powerful 4-5 years after ROTJ then? And if Joruus gets ranked based off the same series then why should we avoid Luuke doing very well against one U Luke?

Mother flooded the Solar System with Dark Side, and just feeling her power made Jaden physically walk like he would against a rainstorm. Likened to a downpour, a tsunami, etc. Normally this would mean nothing, but Jaden Korr beat the kriff out of Ragnos with a kriff of Nexuses stored in his sword that had enough power to empower an army of non-force sensitives to Jedi Knight levels across the galaxy - when Jaden was a Jedi Knight. Jaden reacted a lot more to Mother than he did against that power.
Mother ragdolled two Master Level Jaden Korrs and they were no match for her power and ran away. One was a Dark Side Clone too. She also casually raised hundreds of dead beings to fight as zombies. Etc.



That being said it, all of these were just suggestions of who you could feasibly see above Vader. You still have 18 people/iterations (with no Arcann either) above Vader per your understanding so it seems unlikely he approaches your own top 10. If you even add 2 people above him in that list, it knocks him out of the top 20.

Why is Malak not > Kun, and SoR Revan not massively above him?

Nihilus was eating planets and ragdolling ships out of gravity wells. Imagine killing almost the entire council in any era and then eating them. He also foddered both Sith casually in his game. Seems odd to rank him below Vader.

Heard different things about this feat so I'm wary of putting him higher for now. 

Kueller was eating so much Darkside for a permanent growth that people feared he'd surpass Sheev.

Wasn't it Mara who said this, a person who never actually saw Sidious exercise his full power? Sounds a lot like pointless hype.

He also was beating rage Luke, although Luke was heavily weakened both times.

If Luke was heavily weakened I don't see why this would put Kueller in the top 10.

Hidden One hit FOTJ braced Luke with lightning - that he blocked with his saber - so hard it threw Luke into a pillar. Joruus failed to replicate this force against a pre-DE Luke.

Impressive.

Lomi Plo had an entire nest backing her and managed to stalemate pre-all-out-sicko mode Luke in a force struggle with her Force Net. She then proceeded to casually one shot Jacen and battle Luke well.

Wasn't Luke exhausted? Wasn't she also invisible during her fight with him? 

Sai casually one shot S1 Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto at the same time. She also did well against Mace Windu and Anakin. She ragdolled Dooku and Ventress at the same time, albeit a cheapshot.

Going to need scans or links for all of these.

Plagueis.

Forgot him, my bad. Added now.

Jorus was smoothing out hyperspace turbulences, and seen as powerful enough that Sheev wanted to ensure he died. Though a lot is predicated on his Clone's later power but Jorus himself had pretty much fallen to the Darkside at the end so the gap shouldn't be too large.

Seems a bit too unsubstantial to use.

So should Luke be less powerful 4-5 years after ROTJ then? And if Joruus gets ranked based off the same series then why should we avoid Luuke doing very well against one U Luke?

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that his scaling is all over the place. In one book he's equal to Vader by ROTJ and surpasses him after, by another he's far superior. Then we have another saying Vader could have stomped Luke in the Force, and then Dark Empire for example suggesting DE Luke < ROTJ Vader. We also have have another source suggesting Kyp w/ Kun's spirit ~ ROTJ Vader. It's all over the place and I want no part in using it for scaling.

Mother flooded the Solar System with Dark Side, and just feeling her power made Jaden physically walk like he would against a rainstorm. Likened to a downpour, a tsunami, etc.

Also impressive, but like Abeloth she's not a Jedi or Sith.

Normally this would mean nothing, but Jaden Korr beat the kriff out of Ragnos with a kriff of Nexuses stored in his sword that had enough power to empower an army of non-force sensitives to Jedi Knight levels across the galaxy - when Jaden was a Jedi Knight. Jaden reacted a lot more to Mother than he did against that power.

Impressive Jaden feat, but for all we know that sword had expended most of its energy summoning that army unless there's evidence to the contrary.

Mother ragdolled two Master Level Jaden Korrs and they were no match for her power and ran away. One was a Dark Side Clone too. She also casually raised hundreds of dead beings to fight as zombies. Etc.

First feat is impressive but I wouldn't put it above some of Vader's. Second one, Old Daka performed a similar feat despite no other feats to her name. 

That being said it, all of these were just suggestions of who you could feasibly see above Vader. You still have 18 people/iterations (with no Arcann either) above Vader per your understanding so it seems unlikely he approaches your own top 10. If you even add 2 people above him in that list, it knocks him out of the top 20.

Depends. Starkiller has comparable environmental and telekinetic feats to most of the people on the list, and Vader completely matched him. He then grew between TFU 2 and ANH, then grew immensely between ANH and ESB, before growing once again between ESB and ROTJ. While as I said before he lacks the same broadness of the feats that others on the list have, by scaling he should be pretty beyond his TFU 2 iteration by ROTJ, which in turn scales him to a much higher level than his feats alone show. Even with feats he's done things like casually thrown around Kaminoan cloning platforms while focusing on Starkiller, displaying absolutely no effort while doing so.

BreakOfDawn wrote:

Hidden One,

Again, don't know enough about him/her.

His name is Koro Zill. Don’t ever forget it.

This is what you need to know: 

It happened all at once: the Hidden One gesturing towards Luke, Ben leaping away, lightning flashing from the Hidden One’s hands. It was not the purplish lightning of Emperor Palpatine, which had so nearly cost Luke his life nearly forty years ago; it was all brilliant whiteness. Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One’s energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head.
Fate of the Jedi: Outcast

Spoiler:

Just saying, doesn't look like Luke had braced himself, only got his lightsaber up.

---

1. Luke.
2. Sidious.
3. Valkorion.
4. Nyax.
5. Yoda/Mace Windu/KFV/Darish Vol.
6. Plagueis/Outlander.
7. Vaylin (unchained)/Vitiate.
8. Gethzerion
9. Talzin.
10. Unuthul. 
11. Lomi Plo.
12. Joruus.
13. Revan (SoR).
14. Exar Kun.
15. Dooku/Vader.

Yeah, this is big brain time.