Darth Vader V Exar Kun

darthbane77 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

LadyKulvax wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

1.Again, the web enhancement is an outdated source. It's been replaced by a newer source by the same company under the same media.

2.Unless you think Malak one-shots ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by extension Revan and everyone else who scales from her. Then you're being hypocritical. KotOR Revan solos the PT era then. A lot of people didn't  and don't consider the Champions of the Force miniatures series as seriously relevant to Canon because it's an internal universe that doesn't abide by lore at all.

3.Yeah, doesn't work like that champ. Kun being the biggest threat the galaxy has known since the Republic formed as of 4000 years before Luke was born doesn't in any way contradict the Vitiate most powerful quotes that are dated as of the Cold War in the TOR era by an in-universe text.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader disintegrates with a glare

darthbane77 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

1.Again, the web enhancement is an outdated source. It's been replaced by a newer source by the same company under the same media.

2.Unless you think Malak one-shots ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by extension Revan and everyone else who scales from her. Then you're being hypocritical. KotOR Revan solos the PT era then. A lot of people didn't  and don't consider the Champions of the Force miniatures series as seriously relevant to Canon because it's an internal universe that doesn't abide by lore at all.

3.Yeah, doesn't work like that champ. Kun being the biggest threat the galaxy has known since the Republic formed as of 4000 years before Luke was born doesn't in any way contradict the Vitiate most powerful quotes that are dated as of the Cold War in the TOR era by an in-universe text.

1. Provide something from this "newer source" that contradicts the quote then. Unless there's a direct contradiction, the quote stands.

2: Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Revan is bound by numerous quotes for Yoda, Windu and Anakin, so he absolutely can't solo the PT era. Elaborate on how this means Revan could solo the PT era though, I do need some new comedic material. Also, while my personal stance on it isn't exactly relevant, I actually do think Malak one-shots Kenobi. *shrug*

3: Was under the impression you meant Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had ever faced, that's my fault for not better understanding. That said, I'd still argue the point. Kun being the "greatest threat" the Republic had known doesn't really speak to personal usable power in combat/through the Force. It could just as easily be referring Kun's military power, which was considerable. Of course, if you provide the actual quote, you could potentially prove me wrong. I think you'd relish the opportunity, so why not share the quote and prove Kun's might? If you can.

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!

LadyKulvax wrote:Yes, because that's certainly what's happened. Not.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:It's always nice to watch AP get battered.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:I'd say Kun, but its very close.

darthbane77 wrote:Kun *should* win.

DeadlyJedi wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:Kun *should* win.

Reasons?

DeadlyJedi wrote:@Darthbane77 Ok cuz if Exar Kun is supposedly below Malak and Dooku, then I see no reason to believe why he shouldn't be below Vader too

darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

LadyKulvax wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

1.Wait, did you just argue it's an in-universe POV? Very well, I agree.

2.The Kun quote doesn't need to cover the after-the-fact. It places him over the Star Forge, which is much more impressive.

3.That Revan quote is obviously referring to the time, and not all-time.

4.Considering Kun is already stated to be the biggest threat of that time. That's a self-solving puzzle.

DeadlyJedi wrote:@Darthbane77 Ok cuz if Exar Kun is supposedly below Malak and Dooku, then I see no reason to believe why he shouldn't be below Vader too

darthbane77 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

1.Wait, did you just argue it's an in-universe POV? Very well, I agree.

2.The Kun quote doesn't need to cover the after-the-fact. It places him over the Star Forge, which is much more impressive.

3.That Revan quote is obviously referring to the time, and not all-time.

4.Considering Kun is already stated to be the biggest threat of that time. That's a self-solving puzzle.

1: I meant written pertaining to the lore itself. Written for the universe vs written for the game specifically. I thought that was clear enough based on me differentiating between the quotes speaking from a lore POV vs a game specific POV. Even if it *was* exclusively in-universe, that doesn't make it worthless. At any rate, you didn't exactly "counter" what I said, so should I expect you to do so? Or should I expect you to dodge it some more?

2: Except the Star Forge was never established as a threat to galaxy or the Republic itself, that I can remember, only that it destroyed the Rakata species, then obviously faded into obscurity until the Jedi Civil War. As well, the Star Forge stopped being a direct threat to anyone after the destruction of the Infinite Empire, when Kun rose to power, the Star Forge wasn't a threat to anyone because nobody knew where or even what it was. The quote also specifically says that Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had seen "since the formation of the Republic" which occurred centuries after the fall of the Infinite Empire. Regardless of how you look at it, the quote does not, in any way, scale Kun above the Star Forge.

Even if Kun DID scale above the Forge, it wouldn't mean much of anything anyway, because Malak's ability to dominate the Forge and then power it to 300% efficiency is rather indicative that Malak himself is more powerful than the Star Forge. So ultimately, the quote you provided for Kun doesn't matter in the slightest.

3: How is that? The language in the quote doesn't give any indication of era specificity, it just says that he became "the Republic's deadliest enemy." If you consider that era specific, and not the quote you provided for Kun, then maybe we should address your clear double standards before moving on. The quote you provided reads:

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

The first part of the quote gives a time period, four thousand years before Luke Skywalker, which is when "Tales of the Jedi" takes place, and the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the Republic being created. The quote is very clearly attributing Kun's threat to just that time period, to just Kun's lifetime. There is absolutely nothing in the quote that implies Kun was a greater threat than those who followed immediately after him.

4: The strongest threat of his time, specifically, yes. SWTOR and KotOR aren't of his time. So can you prove definitively that the quote applies to the whole of the Old Republic, as you seem to be arguing? Or what?

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?