Shaak Ti runs the Darth Vader gauntlet.

IG wrote:

Cheth wrote:Ah yes, could you explain why being matched by a shadow guard is an anti-feat and not a showing of the shadow guard's skill? 

The same Shadow Guards are inferior to Hand Mara, who arguably scales beneath Aayla, and definitely scales below An'ya Kuro. 

@Nute_Chethray

There's also TPM Kenobi > Vader scaling,

And why are Aayla and An'ya relevant?

Could you remind me what TPM Kenobi > Vader is based on?

@IG Still waiting on an explanation for how 19 BBY Ventress magically became so much more lethal:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.[/size]


And before you or someone else goes the semantics route and say she was trained to that level but could have grown, Ventress was explicitly held back by her training even as of 19 BBY:

"Then reward me! Make me your apprentice! Teach me the ways of the Sith!" 



"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?" 



"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily. As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly. "I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

-

"But do I really want to make you so strong?" the Count said softly. "We are such pleasant company now, while you know your place. But if I were to make you my apprentice, if I were to take you by the hand and lead you down below the black water that is the dark side, then either you would drown, or you would grow far stronger, and neither option appeals to me. You burn so brightly now, I would hate to put you out."

Dooku was explicitly holding her back:

"In a perfect world," Dooku said, "one could feed an apprentice just enough to keep him growing—just enough to keep him wanting more. The Master could promise him fame, glamour. That's a good one to deliver on," he said. "He could do the Master's bidding, be his public face. Then if any of the Master's plans went wrong, why, he could take the fall." Dooku looked up, his eyes suddenly sharp and very much in the present. "Does that sound good to you, Asajj? Would you truly like to be my apprentice? I could make you the most feared woman in the galaxy. All the Jedi would come looking for you, while I sat safe and sound in Coruscant, biding my time."

Asajj licked her lips again. "Let them come,"

Skilled and powerful enough to fight Jedi below the high tiers (the high 8s and the 9s) but not a threat to them in that they could dispatch her. Dooku didn't consider her a significant threat as she was at this point, supporting the quote. If you have evidence Ventress grew beyond her training to such an extent that she became worthy of being a Sith apprentice and thus ~/> Vader, please provide it. 

Since people here love scaling so much: Shaak Ti was defeated by a weaker Galen than the one who was given a good fight by a shadow guard. Shadow guards are stated to not even be a threat to Vader or Sidious. Therefore, Shaak Ti < shadow guards < Bespin Galen << Vader.

why any vader thread needs to become with the same arguments of being sub tpm kenobi?

Because people keep misinterpreting Lucas quotes.

Latham2000 wrote:Because people keep misinterpreting Lucas quotes.

well damn

Galen was never matched or given a good fight by a Shadow Guard around this point in time though.

@Nute_Chethray:

In a thread about two characters there were attempted debunks on both sides.

The debunks against Jinn were made by a self confirmed shitposter and torn to pieces by Kilius (By contrast the post by Grey contained legitimate argumentation and forced an instant concession from his opposition). They aren't relevant to the discussion at hand in the slightest, but sure, go on and use them. I could do with a good laugh atm, isolation for all its pros has made it so that good humour is in short supply these days.

Sure this makes it less impressive, but I was fully aware of this scan and those arguments against her. It makes it less impressive, but it doesn't just erase the feat from existance.

You only took the LOE quote from the post, which isn't the full argument. I'd agree with you if it was solely that, but it's not. That's just the icing on the cake. The other quotes don't just make it less impressive, they literally prove that it's not at all relevant to Ti's 1V1 prowess against a single, powerful opponent like, I don't know, TPM Kenobi.

Djem So has an advantage in strenght over makashi, but would you say that Anakin's win over Dooku should be ignored?

False equivalency. Not only does the ROTS novel attribute Anakin with greater power regardless, the fact remains that Anakin holding a style edge isn't the same as Ti specialising in an area of combat not relevant to a 1V1 fight.

It doesn't make Shaak > ROTS Kenobi, but its still a solid showing that I personally find more impressive than beating TPM Koon.

No explanation for why has been given on your end so I'll just ignore this.

Ah yes, could you explain why being matched by a shadow guard is an anti-feat and not a showing of the shadow guard's skill?

Shadow Guards are capped well beneath Secura, Aurra etc etc.

Galen has by far better feats even at this point than either Kenobi, Jinn or Koon by the time of TPM, like forcepushing hundreds or thousands of droids at once.

Which Shaak doesn't scale from due to Galen being disproportionately adept with TK.

Only thing I've ever heard of that is that he's noted to be sub-Shaak. From what I've heard he's portrayed as a great jedi general.

Vader doesn't think he's a "true" Jedi master, which caps him beneath a whole load of PT lads who are markedly inferior to Jinn.

What has Jinn or Koon done thats > or even = Galen?

Jinn matching Maul in aug for a period of time (Who is one of the best trained sith in history with insane TK and physical feats) puts him well beyond Galen and Kota who have absolutely nothing of note besides being capped beneath Aurra, Aayla and such.

@ScionOfSkywalker77

Specifiying any part of the thread you sent, or explaining your arguments on your own, would be helpful in having any idea what I'm debating against

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:By contrast the post by Grey contained legitimate argumentation and forced an instant concession from his opposition

He made the argument against HFU, who i therefore assume is the opposition you reffer to. HFU however afterward wrote that he still thought Shaak would win based on superior power and comparable skill. Hardly sounds like a concession. 

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:single, powerful opponent like, I don't know, TPM Kenobi.

No explanation for why has been given on your end so I'll just ignore this.

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:
Ti specialising in an area of combat not relevant to a 1V1 fight

I assume you reffer to the quote " Shaak Ti was a formidable combat specialist , (note the comma) expert in melee fighting in chaotic and densly packed conditions." She doesn't specialise in fighting multiple opponents at once, she's just an expert at it, and one doesn't preclude the other. Infact Shaak's main combat form is makashi, specifically designed for 1v1 combat. Dooku for example, is another makashi specialist that is an expert at fighting multiple opponents at once (shown every fight with Anakin and Kenobi)

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:Shadow Guards are capped well beneath Secura, Aurra etc etc.

No explanation for why has been given on your end so I'll just ignore this.

I've seriously never seen a reason for this before

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:Which Shaak doesn't scale from due to Galen being disproportionately adept with TK.

No explanation for why has been given on your end so I'll just ignore this.

Again, never seen an argument for this nor any accolades saying so

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote wrote:Jinn matching Maul in aug for a period of time (Who is one of the best trained sith in history with insane TK and physical feats) puts him well beyond Galen and Kota who have absolutely nothing of note besides being capped beneath Aurra, Aayla and such.

No explanation for why has been given on your end so I'll just ignore this.

Maul's barracks feat may be great, but I'd argue force pushing a 1000+ droids at once is better. And note that Maul beat Jinn despite him having Kenobi help him, so he's not exactly a perfect equal. The feat you reffered to also left Jinn completely exhausted.


Edit: As for TPM Koon vs beating 5 magnaguards while fighting roughly a dozen more: magnaguards have better accolades and feats (three being too much for Kenobi, stalemating jedi masters/knights 1v1, etc.)

Shaak-Ti doesn't make pass the first round. 

Vader by this time is way more powerful than ROTS suit Vader who is 80% of ROTS Sidious.

@Nute_Chethray:

Specifiying any part of the thread you sent, or explaining your arguments on your own, would be helpful in having any idea what I'm debating against

Or perhaps you could use a little common sense and look at the only post with detailed analysis favouring Jinn? Shocking I know, but it's worth a try.

He made the argument against HFU, who i therefore assume is the opposition you reffer to. HFU however afterward wrote that he still thought Shaak would win based on superior power and comparable skill. Hardly sounds like a concession.

I was (Obviously) referring to him conceding the feat.

She doesn't specialise in fighting multiple opponents at once, she's just an expert at it, and one doesn't preclude the other. Infact Shaak's main combat form is makashi, specifically designed for 1v1 combat. Dooku for example, is another makashi specialist that is an expert at fighting multiple opponents at once (shown every fight with Anakin and Kenobi)

Yup, let's just ignore the other 2 quotes posted, quotes that explicitly emphasise Ti's skill in group combat and make note of a fight that was favourable to her (That, shockingly, happened against multiple opponents). This is cherry picking if I've ever seen it (Note that I was referencing those 2 statements, not this quote).

I've seriously never seen a reason for this before

Aurra gives a decent fight to the same Jacen that's a rough equal of Mara, who completely dwarfs the SG's.

Again, never seen an argument for this nor any accolades saying so

Well, you're about to be enlightened my boy.

Maul's barracks feat may be great, but I'd argue force pushing a 1000+ droids at once is better.

A) Why?

B) As noted above Galen's TK is disproportionate to his augmentation and such, so Shaak doesn't scale to this regardless.

And note that Maul beat Jinn despite him having Kenobi help him,

Worth noting that it's indicated that had he not separated the 2 he would have lost out.

so he's not exactly a perfect equal. The feat you reffered to also left Jinn completely exhausted.

He doesn't have to be a perfect equal to scale above 15 year old Maul. Merely holding on and matching him for a period of time is enough.

@Nute_Chethray

Maul's barracks feat may be great, but I'd argue force pushing a 1000+ droids at once is better.

Yeah, but Maul was only 15 years old and the Force scream was brought on because he got a small cut lol.

And note that Maul beat Jinn despite him having Kenobi help him,

Kenobi wasn't with him when Jinn was cut down. If they hadn't have been separated, it's relatively clear that Maul would have lost. Even if the odds went in his favour, it would be Kenobi dying first imo.

The feat you reffered to also left Jinn completely exhausted.

Yeah, after several minutes of dueling; remembering that duels only ever go for a minute or two at most typically.

Remember that Jinn also caused Maul to throw out all his usual strategies within the first seconds of their duel on Tatooine, and was practically shitting himself because he couldn't get past Jinn's guard.