Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ?

Darth Nihilus wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ?

explain why you share the same IP then

HellfireUnit wrote:

Darth Nihilus wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ?

explain why you share the same IP then

Because we are staying together? lol

Good excuse. I am sure everyone would believe that.

HellfireUnit wrote:Good excuse. I am sure everyone would believe that.

It seems like you are trying to attack me personally instead of my arguments because you have none. Yup I think we are done. Concession accepted.

Good, productive discussion - that's what I like to see.

Spoiler:

@HellfireUnit Second warning. You're getting banned next.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Nice try, The Merchant or whoever you are. First of all, post your evidence. Second, the whole game wanks Ancients above the Sith Triumvirate and others. Can you make a case for Nihilus being any tier above Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd or Tulak Hord? Make sure you accomplish that first, then maybe people may consider Nihilus not being sub Jaden Korr.

Already been done:

Kreia is comparing/rivaling Nihilus's entity state and not his force power to the ancients. This is exactly mentioned in Kreia’s quote itself:

“I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it.”

Notice how Kreia mentions the 'rival' part and right after says that Nihilus is ‘already’ (relating to what has been previously said; i.e the rivaling) more of an entity than a living thing.

- Going to need evidence of the ancient Sith being below Jaden Korr

- Going to need evidence of Nihilus being below Jaden Korr

- Going to need evidence of Darth Vader (suited) being above the ancient Sith

And your opinion does not dictate the opinion of others or the majority. Claiming everyone else thinks like you is quite funny and hilarious at best. Considering you also have a problem with 'evidence' and have been throwing around baseless claims throughout all this, I have conveniently provided the definition below:

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

Not to mention the fact that your whole 'argument' (if we even call it that) has been entirely debunked and contradicted by Chris's own words himself since he has explicitly stated that he does not directly compare Force user's powers and avoids that pattern himself. You can honestly whine and give a tantrum as much as you like, but the fact still remains that your argument is entirely invalid as per Chris's own words. It's funny how you take Chris's words entirely when he says Vader beats Nihilus but then try to disregard/ignore the fact that he said he does not compare Force users powers directly like we do in versus battles.

I am going to keep this discussion as civil as it could be for my dear friends Azronger and Cilghal's sake. A long case won't even be needed due to the evidences.

Starting with Chris' words, they are consistent. Regardless of Revan's and Vader's strength, skills or anything else, he never once claimed that Revan or Vader would lose against Nihilus and pretty much confirmed the otherwise. It is not that "Chris does not directly compare Force user's powers." In fact Chris himself states it doesn't even come down to raw power versus raw power which shows Nihilus' abilities and powers are pretty irrelevant. Hell, a direct confrontation isn't even necessary since Revan could beat him via his tactical and strategical superiority alone as he himself says "not necessarily fighting them".



In addition, this Tweet alone is more than a proof showing Nihilus would lost to both anyways:



He implies that even if Vader went back to past, it would not matter. Now Chris does not have an authority when it comes to determine both Revan and Vader's powers. But he designs and presents Nihilus. It is obvious Nihilus is meant to be below them and many other sources support this claim which I'll be posting.

About Ancients' accolades, you claim it is vague and unquantifiable. It is pretty much obvious in the game that Ancient Sith are above Triumvirate and Avellone once again confirms this claim via a narrative point of view and Nihilus is still meant to be sub-Ancients. I am not even going to mention Dxun stuff because it is not necessary at this point:



So Nihilus is once again hundred percent confirmed to be below the Ancient Sith we encountered along the way. Pretty much everything implies Nihilus is being buried both PT and TOR scaling chains and is at the rock bottom. Now let's proceed to other sources.

Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations. While one may reasonably expect someone fallen to the dark side to employ Force lightning against a foe, no one expects a fleet of starships commanded by Sith Lords consuming entire planets. Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice.
From a game mechanics point of view, there is little need to spend time developing rules and restrictions for such a unique power. It is a story device. From the GM's perspective, Darth Nihilus consumes a world when the plot requires it. However, lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes. These abilities are better emulated by the use of Force talents, powers, secrets, and techniques. In this case, the GM should describe the use of such a talent, like Drain Force, in a manner that suggests that it is powered by his unnatural hunger.
As another example, Darth Sion embodies the unbeatable enemy. He's a Sith so vile that he channels his own anger through the Force to keep himself alive even though he should be dead. Thanks to his intense anger and pain, he literally holds his decaying body together through the dark side of the Force.


Darth Sion's continued existence is best described as a story device, rather than as a specialized Force power that requires constant rolls to keep Sion whole. However, even though the character may believe that his ability to escape death is nearly infinite, it is actually limited by his Destiny Points in an unusual way. When taking a final hit that would normally kill him, he spends a Destiny Point to cause the attack to miss, and his story device background returns him to full hit points and the top of the condition track. Darth Sion cannot be defeated until his Destiny Points are exhausted. Once they are gone, he feels the loss of power, loses the will to fight, and begins to question his existence. From this point, he is susceptible to the Exile's attempts to persuade him to give up his life as a much-desired escape from his painful existence.

-Power Beyond Belief

For years, I have been seeing this comments claiming protaganist beats the antagonist because plot demands it. This phrase confirms the exact opposite and confirms Nihilus and Sion are actually characters who benefit from the plot armor. Avellone himself exactly says that Nihilus is a distraction for a Kreia. The sentence: "lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes." proves that his planetary drain is barely combat applicable and it is suspicious if he can utilize from it to its fullest.

About Nihilus' clash between Exile and her gang, there are pretty much confirmed statements that he isn't a match for the combined might of the Marr and Surik:



So Nihilus was basically not a match for Visas Marr and Meetra Surik, who are deep beneath buried the other characters on TOR, PT and NJO.
Before you point it out yeah, everyone knows Meetra is his polar opposite thus disabling his Force Drain. However we learned that Nihilus was in fact amplifying himself further during the fight and yet he still wasn't a match for Meetra and Visas:



So we learned that Nihilus was actually amplifying himself during the entire fight after he failed to drain the Exile. Despite that, he is still not a match or whatsoever to Meetra and her companions.

As an extra, KOTOR Campaign Guide and COTF TOR merchandise shows Nihilus is significantly inferior to other major characters we have seen in the series and even the weaker incarnation of both Revan and Malak.








Even the lesser sources acknowledge that Nihilus isn't on the same level as the weaker incarnations of Malak and Revan. Every single source including the base game supports my claims and I have given enough evidence from different perspectives. I don't feel like using other stronger arguments since everything is on the table already.

Now for stuff that you asked:

1 - Ancient Sith aren't below Jaden Korr. However the latter was able to defeat Marka Ragnos fair and square despite the obstacles. Can you make a case for Nihilus being above Marka Ragnos?

2 - I don't see why Suited Vader should be relevant here? We are talking about peak Vader who is the most powerful enemy ever faced by the Jedi which automatically eliminates Nihilus from the list. Not to mention there are tons of accolades and feats which can put Vader above Nihilus.

In conclusion Nihilus is a hot garbage who benefits from story devices and is beaten by pre-prime Exile and Visas who are among the lowest of TOR scaling chain. Every single source shits on Nihilus and he is designed to be below Ancient Sith, Revan and Darth Vader. I wouldn't be surprised if Ahsoka beats this useless, insignificant bug. I have seen enough of this dumpster fire for the past few days and you better get these biased claims of yours out of my sight.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Meatpants: Why does Vader beat Nihilus?

Not convinced that Nihilus scales that high, especially when Avellone confirmed Kreia was correct in saying he's only becoming as powerful as some of the ancient Sith lords. From what I've seen, Nihilus can't use planet-draining power against a single opponent either.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

@HellfireUnit

"Starting with Chris' words, they are consistent. Regardless of Revan's and Vader's strength, skills or anything else, he never once claimed that Revan or Vader would lose against Nihilus and pretty much confirmed the otherwise. It is not that "Chris does not directly compare Force user's powers." In fact Chris himself states it doesn't even come down to raw power versus raw power which shows Nihilus' abilities and powers are pretty irrelevant. Hell, a direct confrontation isn't even necessary since Revan could beat him via his tactical and strategical superiority alone as he himself says "not necessarily fighting them."

He implies that even if Vader went back to past, it would not matter. Now Chris does not have an authority when it comes to determine both Revan and Vader's powers. But he designs and presents Nihilus and it is obvious Nihilus is meant to be below them and many other sources support this claim which I'll be posting

"About Ancients' accolades, you claim it is vague and unquantifiable. It is pretty much obvious in the game that Ancient Sith are above Triumvirate and Avellone once again confirms this claim via a narrative point of view and Nihilus is still meant to be sub-Ancients. I am not even going to mention Dxun stuff because it is not even necessary at this point:

 
So Nihilus is once again hundred percent confirmed to be below the Ancient Sith we encountered along the way. Pretty much everything implies Nihilus is being buried both PT and TOR scaling chains and is at the rock bottom. Now let's proceed to other sources."

 

“”For years, I have been seeing this comments claiming protaganist beats the antagonist because plot demands it. This phrase confirms the exact opposite and confirms Nihilus and Sion are actually characters who benefit from the plot armor. Avellone himself exactly says that Nihilus is a distraction for a Kreia. The sentence: "lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes." proves that his planetary drain is barely combat applicable and it is doubtful he can utilize it to its fullest.””

"About Nihilus' clash between Exile and her gang, there are pretty much confirmed statements that he isn't a match for the combined might of the Marr and Surik:

So Nihilus was basically not a match for Visas Marr and Meetra Surik, who are deep beneath buried the other characters on TOR, PT and NJO.
Before you point it out yeah, everyone knows Meetra is his polar opposite thus disabling his Force Drain. However we learned that Nihilus was in fact amping himself further during the fight and lost against still he wasn't a match for Meetra and Visas:

           So we learned that Nihilus was actually amplifying himself during the entire fight after he failed to drain the Exile and despite              that, he is still not a match or whatsoever to Meetra and her companions"

 

"As an extra, KOTOR Campaign Guide and COTF TOR merchandise shows Nihilus is significantly inferior to other major characters we have seen in the series and even the weaker incarnation of Revan.
Even the lesser sources acknowledge that Nihilus isn't even on the same level as the weaker incarnations of Malak and Revan. Every single source including the base game supports my claims and I have given enough evidence from different perspectives. I don't even feel like using other stronger arguments since everything is on the table already.”

"In conclusion Nihilus is a hot garbage that benefits from story devices and is beaten by pre-prime Exile and Visas who are among the lowest of TOR scaling chain. Every single source shits on Nihilus and he is designed to be below Ancient Sith, Revan and Darth Vader. I wouldn't even be surprised if Ahsoka beats this useless, insignificant bug. I have seen enough of this dumpsterfire for the past few days and you better get these biased claims of yours out of my sight.”

Meatpants wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Meatpants: Why does Vader beat Nihilus?

Not convinced that Nihilus scales that high, especially when Avellone confirmed Kreia was correct in saying he's only becoming as powerful as some of the ancient Sith lords. From what I've seen, Nihilus can't use planet-draining power against a single opponent either.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

@Meatpants

I will respond to this if you don't mind   .

Chris did not confirm or say that Nihilus is below the ancients in power (at least the ancients that we know now and not the unmade KOTOR 3 ones). Let us take a look at what Chris said:

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

-Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

The above, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong), was said in response to the following quote:

Kreia: “If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.”


Let us take a further look at the context surrounding the above quote and where it came from:

Kreia: This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived.

Meetra: Are you saying modern Jedi are poorly skilled with the lightsaber?

Kreia: If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.

Meetra: What made him so good?

Kreia: This is unknown. But supposedly he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. The holocron would have been laid to rest in his tomb.
 
Kreia’s ‘children’ quote was specifically about lightsaber combat and lightsaber skill relative to the modern Jedi. Let us break it down. Kreia first opens up about Tulak Hord and immediately goes into how great of a lightsaber duelist he was and praises his ‘remarkable’ skill and how he was the best lightsaber duelist even during a time where ‘true lightsaber masters lived.’ Meetra then asks Kreia whether the modern Jedi are poorly skilled with lightsabers. Kreia responds to that question, about skill with lightsabers, by stating the ‘children’ quote. Notice how Kreia says ‘playing with toys’ which would not have made much sense if we are talking about power, especially when the context leading to this was strictly about lightsaber combat and skill. The ‘playing with toys’ is directly related to lightsaber combat and how the modern Jedi carry lightsabers like ‘playing with toys’. Not only that, but notice how Kreia also mentions the ‘prowess of the old masters’ part. ‘Prowess’ is defined as skill/expertise/mastery which is directly related to technique/skill of something and not raw power, especially when the context of the quote further supports this. The ‘the old masters’ part of the quote is directly related to the ‘when many true lightsaber masters lived’ in the previous quote by Kreia. Kreia is essentially talking about how Tulak was the greatest lightsaber duelist and how he was considered remarkable even during a time when ‘true lightsaber masters’ lived and then relates it the modern Jedi by saying that they are essentially ‘playing with toys’ instead of lightsabers when compared to the skill/mastery of the old masters (i.e the true lightsaber masters period). This is even further supported by the last quote where, after Meetra asks what made Tulak so good, Kreia responds by saying that it is ‘unknown’ but that Tulak made a holocron to teach his technique of lightsaber combat to others. The fact that Kreia mentions ‘technique’ right after Meetra questions what made Tulak ‘so good’, is a further indication that this wasn’t about the power of the ancients and that it wasn’t raw power that made Tulak ‘so good’, but instead it was his lightsaber combat skills/technique relative to the modern Jedi. And this is all shown in the context of the conversation that took place.
 
Now if you are also referring to the Nihilus ‘rivalling’ the ancients quote, let us take a look at that as well and try to break it down: