Vjun Dooku vs SWTOR Vitiate

Standard rules

SWTOR Vitiate as in Valkorion? Ziost Vitiate? Dromund Kaas Vitiate? Voss Vitiate?

Even with his amp, Vjun Dooku couldn't beat Yoda. So it depends on if you mean Valkorion or any of his earlier iterations. Because the consensus is that Valk > prime Yoda.

Dooku probably.

I'm assuming this is the Emperor in Act 2 prior to the Dark Ritual. Obviously, he wins.

Vitiate walks into his saber.

Geistalt wrote:SWTOR Vitiate as in Valkorion? Ziost Vitiate? Dromund Kaas Vitiate? Voss Vitiate?

Even with his amp, Vjun Dooku couldn't beat Yoda. So it depends on if you mean Valkorion or any of his earlier iterations. Because the consensus is that Valk > prime Yoda.

Yoda was amped to likely the same extent and arguably to an even greater extent tho...

OT - Dooku was already able to give Vitiate’s canonical superior a close fight despite unfavorable circumstances. Add on amp from a very powerful place like Vjun and he wins.

the shit emperor walks into his lightsaber and then dooku cuts off his head

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:Yoda was amped to likely the same extent and arguably to an even greater extent tho...

By what?

Yoda was amped to likely the same extent and arguably to an even greater extent tho...

No, he wasn't.

Geistalt wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:Yoda was amped to likely the same extent and arguably to an even greater extent tho...

By what?

The same nexus that Dooku was amped by

BoD wrote:

Yoda was amped to likely the same extent and arguably to an even greater extent tho...

No, he wasn't.

I mean we know that the nexus didn’t just affect darksiders since Anakin, Scout, and Whie all feel super empowered from it. The author of the novel (Sean Stewart) also supports the idea that Yoda was drawing power from the nexus as well and based off of the surfer and wave analogy that he used, Yoda being amped to an even greater extent is not a stretch at all.

Adding to what @Blade_Of_Dorin said, Dooku notes how Yoda was particularly difficult to behold on Vjun. While some have argued it to be a result of Yoda unleashing more of his power, I don’t think that is the right interpretation of the statement, as Yoda is repeatedly noted to have used his full Jedi powers against Dooku in their previous confrontation on Geonosis. 
So yeah, the case for Yoda being amped is definitely very strong.

Kinda defeats the purpose of Dooku telling Yoda to confront him on Vjun, then, if he doesn't gain any advantage on that planet.

Vjun amping Yoda is indeed a strong case, just like Dathomir amping Luke Skywalker.

KelDorianUnit wrote:Vjun amping Yoda is indeed a strong case, just like Dathomir amping Luke Skywalker.

Please tell me you are joking

I mean we know that the nexus didn’t just affect darksiders since Anakin, Scout, and Whie all feel super empowered from it.

Every Force user drawing upon the nexus was either emotionally unstable or had used the dark side previously or currently. Scout was trying not to give into fear and despair during her time on Vjun, Whie had basically gone nuts and was happily tapping into it, Ventress and Dooku need no explanation, and Anakin has never been shy about using the dark side before. 

The author of the novel (Sean Stewart) also supports the idea that Yoda was drawing power from the nexus as well and based off of the surfer and wave analogy that he used, Yoda being amped to an even greater extent is not a stretch at all.

Except that we can deduce three things from the novel:

1. Yoda was actively opposing the nexus with every step.

Yoda was close by. He was moving carefully, quietly, hiding his presence in the Force; riding on its back like a leaf whirled gently down a stream. But on Vjun, the Force was bent mightily to the dark side, and every now and then the Master opposed its current. It was these moments Dooku was listening for. Once, several minutes ago, the old Jedi had misstepped, putting a foot against the current, and the shock of it had rumbled through the very bedrock beneath Château Malreaux, announcing the Master's coming like a distant groundquake. Or maybe it hadn't been a mistake. Maybe Yoda wanted Dooku to know he was on his way. Since then the world had been silent. The old Jedi was moving like a water-skeeter over the surface of the Force, with nothing to herald his coming but a faint sensation of heat on Dooku's skin, as if he were a blind man at sunrise, the dawn invisible to him but for a pale, spreading warmth.

Yoda is actively opposing the nexus, a nexus described as being "bent mightily to the dark side". You're basically arguing Yoda, a being utterly devoted to the light side, decided to go against every teaching he makes throughout the book and tap into the dark side:

"No! Wrong she is! As wrong as she can be!" Yoda snorted. "Grief in the galaxy, is there? Oh, yes. Oceans of it. Worlds. And darkness?" Yoda pointed to the starscape on the projection table. "There you see: darkness, darkness everywhere, and a few stars. A few points of light. If no plan there is, no fate, no destiny, no providence, no Force: then what is left?" He looked at each of them in turn. "Nothing but our choices, hmm? "Asajj eats the darkness, and the darkness eats her back. Do that if you wish, Whie. Do that if you wish." The old Jedi looked deep into the starscape, suns and planets and nebulae dancing, tiny points of light blazing in the darkness. "To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness, Padawan." His matted eyebrows rose high over his swamp-colored eyes, and he poked Whie with the end of his stick. Poke, poke. "Be a candle, or the night, Padawan: but choose!"

Yoda makes a point of condemning the dark side, pointing out how using it goes against what a Jedi is meant to be. Arguing he'd tap into this nexus is incredibly out of character for him.

2. The novel explicitly states Yoda puts aside any emotions that might impact him or influence his decisions:

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried. "Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream." "I know how to kill," Dooku hissed. Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"

So Yoda is giving himself back over to the usual Jedi mentality, so the idea that he'd be tapping into a nexus fuelled by emotions associated with the dark side - fear, anger, hate - when he explicitly lets these emotions drop is frankly quite bizarre.

3. Yoda is actively resisting the nexus:

Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."

The author of the novel (Sean Stewart) also supports the idea that Yoda was drawing power from the nexus as well and based off of the surfer and wave analogy that he used, Yoda being amped to an even greater extent is not a stretch at all.

So we're ignoring established lore regarding light and dark side nexuses because one author said so (actively contradicting the lore, I might add)?




-

[size=16]She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow
generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed
the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of
the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had
been the most awful and horrific experience of her life ... until now.[/size]

-

[size=16]"To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it feels like you may never breathe again..."
[/size]

-

;She knew the storm-ravaged world had to be the world Canderous had spoken
of; the one Revan had seen in his dreams. The dark side was powerful here. It
was strong enough to send a shiver down her spine, but the sensation was
infinitely better than the awful nothingness of Nathema.

Nexuses have historically weakened the abilities of Force users of the opposite alignment. That doesn't change just because Stewart - a single author - says it when every source (including, apparently, his own novel) contradicts it. 

Dooku notes how Yoda was particularly difficult to behold on Vjun. While some have argued it to be a result of Yoda unleashing more of his power, I don’t think that is the right interpretation of the statement, as Yoda is repeatedly noted to have used his full Jedi powers against Dooku in their previous confrontation on Geonosis. 

Even assuming Yoda was amped by the nexus, it was explicitly after he calmed himself - after Dooku's taunts - that he continued to win:

Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do." Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.

In fact, Dooku seemingly struggles much more against a calm Yoda, barely holding him off and with sweat running "in streams" and "his lips were white" as he counters him. The descriptions here point to the idea that Yoda was hindered earlier, not amped by the nexus, since a calm Yoda is now performing better against Vjun Dooku than before. 

Dooku also noted Yoda to be "terrible to behold" a few minutes (at best) after seeing a glimpse of a dark side aligned Yoda that made him shit himself. It was also noted to be in the "in the dark, drunken Vjun air" which could be why Dooku is seeing Yoda as this monster, as the nexus stokes whatever emotions he's feeling (which at this point, were fear and hatred). 

So throughout the Dooku and Yoda confrontation, we have Yoda actively opposing the dark side with his mere presence, actively resisting the nexus, and Yoda being calm throughout most of the fight. The basis for him being amped rests on a quote by an author contradicting established lore and several (note that they were unstable) Force users benefiting from it. 

The best you could argue here is that Yoda was somewhat amped, albeit not nearly to the same extent as Dooku. The first act of the fight has Dooku being pushed back by Yoda:

green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold. "Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to." Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

Compare Dooku "slowly, slowly" giving ground and barely losing to:

Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do." Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.

Dooku even believed Vjun would give him an edge:

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

So a heavily amped Dooku was losing to a hindered Yoda, then was being decisively pushed back by a calm, seemingly unhindered Yoda, to the point that Dooku was struggling to even keep up or retaliate beyond defending as "sweat ran in streams" through his beard and "his lips were white".

Based on this, I see no reason why a dark side nexus would amp a paragon of light side energy, especially one whose theme throughout the novel is not to give in or entertain the notion of using the dark side because even as a means to an end, it will destroy you. That's not even to mention that he was actively resisting said nexus and explicitly calmed himself, at which point he performed even better against Dooku than before. If anything, the nexus hindered him, not amped him.

Yes, good post BoD.

1. Yoda was actively opposing the nexus with every step.

Your evidence:

every now and then the Master opposed its current

Opposing the nexus the whole way amirite?

The passage about him opposing it's current now and again is in the context of him actively trying to hide. So the times he isn't opposing the current, he is concealing his presence. Read the book and you would know this

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, good post BoD.

1. Yoda was actively opposing the nexus with every step.

Your evidence:

every now and then the Master opposed its current

Opposing the nexus the whole way amirite?

If only the novel explained that:

He was moving carefully, quietly, hiding his presence in the Force; riding on its back like a leaf whirled gently down a stream. But on Vjun, the Force was bent mightily to the dark side, and every now and then the Master opposed its current. It was these moments Dooku was listening for. Once, several minutes ago, the old Jedi had misstepped, putting a foot against the current, and the shock of it had rumbled through the very bedrock beneath Château Malreaux, announcing the Master's coming like a distant groundquake. Or maybe it hadn't been a mistake. Maybe Yoda wanted Dooku to know he was on his way.

Now if only this passage was written from Dooku's perspective, where Yoda is deliberately concealing his presence and yet every time he (deliberately) stops hiding it creates a shockwave that reverberates throughout the Force.
If you're going to try and be sarcastic (it wasn't very good sarcasm, btw), at least read the passage in question. 

Blade_of_Dorin wrote: Vitiate’s canonical superior.

Lmfao.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Blade_of_Dorin wrote: Vitiate’s canonical superior.

Lmfao.

vs



Yoda lost to the bottom one, so...yeah, you're on to something.

@BoD:

If only the novel explained that:

If only the novel explained the opposite of your interpretation... oh, wait.

Now if only this passage was written from Dooku's perspective, where Yoda is deliberately concealing his presence and yet every time he (deliberately) stops hiding it creates a shockwave that reverberates throughout the Force.

I'm aware of the context of the passage, and what happens in it... I've read the novel. Now, let's try analysing this passage which, I, according to you later in your post, haven't read:

Yoda: Dark Rendevous wrote:Yoda was close by. He was moving carefully, quietly, hiding his presence in the Force; riding on its back like a leaf whirled gently down a stream. But on Vjun, the Force was bent mightily to the dark side, and every now and then the Master opposed its current. It was these moments Dooku was listening for. Once, several minutes ago, the old Jedi had misstepped, putting a foot against the current, and the shock of it had rumbled through the very bedrock beneath Château Malreaux, announcing the Master's coming like a distant groundquake. Or maybe it hadn't been a mistake. Maybe Yoda wanted Dooku to know he was on his way. Since then the world had been silent. The old Jedi was moving like a water-skeeter over the surface of the Force, with nothing to herald his coming but a faint sensation of heat on Dooku's skin, as if he were a blind man at sunrise, the dawn invisible to him but for a pale, spreading warmth.

These are all the specific parts you highlighted. Now, here is your original claim:

1. Yoda was actively opposing the nexus with every step.

...but if you look at your own passage he clearly isn't.

Red Text: Yoda is noted to be "riding on the back" of the Force, and "hiding his presence" indicating he isn't consistently actively opposing the nexus, as when he does it notifies Dooku of his presence (see below).

Blue Text: Yoda only opposes the currents of the nexus "every now and then". Per Google, "every now and then" means "from time to time; occasionally", ergo Yoda is only from time to time resisting the nexus - not "every step" - while most of the time he's "riding on the back" of the Force.

Green Text: The reason why Yoda randomly resists the nexus at points isn't made clear, but Dooku posits it's because Yoda wants to send him a message which honestly strikes me as a plausible interpretation. So, if Yoda is only resisting the nexus to send Dooku a message, and most of the time is "riding on its back", I wonder how you've come to the conclusion that Yoda opposed it with "every step".

As for what you're trying to prove with the passage, I have no clue. You've provided no related analysis on how it proves Yoda was resisting the nexus "with every step" and the passage itself kinda proves the opposite.

If you're going to try and be sarcastic (it wasn't very good sarcasm, btw), at least read the passage in question.

If you're going to try to be a blunt instrument and accuse me of not reading the passage in question, at least make sure your own points aren't self-debunking.

I mean, Ben Skywalker could use the Font of Power. I think fricking Yoda can use Vjun or at least not allow it to hinder him if it is "slightly" bent to the dark side. I think there is sufficient evidence from Stewart and the novel that Yoda is at least able to resist the dark side and likely benefits from the extra abundance of Force energy.

Dooku benefits more from it as it is more dark sided, but as we know from Stewarts wave comment and examples like Anakin on Mortis, more powerful beings are better able to utilise the nexus energy as they can channel more of it and with more control. 

Just saying, it's a good feat for Dooku. I also doubt however that this is the same Yoda that was committed to annihilating Sheev.

The Font of Power is not inherently dark-sided; Ben and Vestara were to become the personifications of the light and dark sides, respectively, after drinking from it. The next Son and Daughter.

That was Abeloth's plan, anyways.

Geistalt wrote:The Font of Power is not inherently dark-sided; Ben and Vestara were to become the personifications of the light and dark sides, respectively, after drinking from it. The next Son and Daughter.

That was Abeloth's plan, anyways.

Wrong.

Ben shook his head. “Not by drinking from the font.” He stepped closer to Vestara and pointed toward the fountain behind her. “That thing is a dark side nexus—probably the most potent one in the entire galaxy. You don’t use something that powerful. It uses you.”
[...]

Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power’s darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future—through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights. The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.