Yoda's prime

Since a certain amount of time, common sense has it that Prime Yoda ~ RotS Yoda. However, this is false. During all the prequel time, Yoda is pass-prime. In order to demonstrate this, I will divide my work in two parts:

• Looking at the different proofs that we have
  
• Responding to some critics about this theory
  

1°)What allowed to think that Yoda isn't in his prime during RotS

*Sources*

Two sources prooves that Yoda isn't in his prime in RotS:
First of all, from the Complete Encyclopedia



This quote explain that Yoda isn't able to lift more than five Muuntur Stone since his 700, so it is the proof that his force power (something which TK is absolutely related) had decrease so that he is past prime.

The second one:

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Here we learn that since Windu know Yoda, the speed of this latter have decrease. Knowing that speed augmentation comes from your force power, this directly imply that Yoda have decrease in term of force power.

*Coherence and credibility*

As you can see, we have a subjective quote (the first) and an objective one (the second).  First question  that need to be answered
Have we any reason to think that Yoda is wrong when he writes the subjective quote ?
The first way for Yoda to be wrong is by not having enough knowledge of what he talks. Obviously this isn't the case here. Yoda perfectly know what he is able to do and what he cannot.
The second possibility for him to be wrong is to lie. This is clearly unlikely, lying on this subject didn't raise Yoda (it is a proof of his decrease) and he writtes in a book, just a personnal note. Absolutely not a something that is meant to be read by everyone.

As you can see, we have zero reasons to think that Yoda isn't right, because of this, we can consider this quote like an objective one in regard of his level of veracity.
Now that we have two objectives quotes about the decrease of Yoda's power, we need to see if by themselves, the quotes aren't contradict by any feat.
For the Shadow Hunter one, there is no problem. We have neither feat nor quotes that show an increase of speed of Yoda since 200 years.
The second one seems to have a problem
Indeed, we know that:

The Complete Encyclopedia wrote:A famous grouping of seven stones once held aloft by Ferleen Snee using only the Force. Each of the Muntuur stones weighed at least 5 metric tons.

So holding five stones should be similar to lifting around 25 tons. And during TCW micro-series, we have Yoda mooving the CIS Droid Carriers with relative ease :





And in the same cartoon he levitates stones that seems heavier than the Muuntur Stones:



Is this a proof that the quote is false ? Not yet. Indeed, because this quote exist and that we have seen that it's an nearly-objective one we need to see if there is any way to keep this quote and the feats that we have (this is the very concept of coherence of a universe).
What are our options?

1. The stones weight more than 5 tons.
   
2. The stones didn't have only a physical mass, but also a spiritual one.
   
3. The quote is wrong and must be dismissed.
   

Let's explore the first two option in order to see if we can keep this quote.
- The first one is mainly based on the fact that the Muuntur stones weight at least 5 tons. Indeed, we can suppose that they weight way more. But if so, why writing "5 tons" ? Why not 6 or 7 or even 10 tons ? Clearly this isn't satisfying at all. For the coherence of our reflexion it is logic to dismiss this option.
- The second one is to add a "spiritual" mass to the physical one of the stones. Indeed, why keeping them in the Temple's Kuddaka chamber as a way to control your TK ? And why are they famous. There is quantity of stones and object in the world around that weight way more than 35 tons... Clearly it seems pretty unlikely to keep this stones if they are random ones.
In addition to this we have the fact that :

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

So Yoda is the top beast of the whole jedi order. Because of this if he should be able to replicate any normal (ie: whithout any amp) feat done by lesser jedi who are less powerful than him. And we have some feat which are above lifting 25 tons of rocks. A simple example is: Aryn Leener lifting the six cars of a cargo

Spoiler:

Last but not least we know that stones with unknown capacity exist in the Star Wars Universe. Yoda himself discover some of them:







As you can see, this stones have a link with the force itself. We have now no reason to dismiss the option of the Muuntur stones having a similar capacity (having a spiritual weight) that could explain why they are famous and keep in a chamber in a jedi temple.

Now, that we know that the quotes are objectives and coherents, the theory must be true.
Yoda have decrease in Force power since (at least) 200 years.

2°)Responding to the critics

Obviously, like any theory there is some people that disagree with it. What are their arguments ?

1. The quote from the Complete Encyclopedia is missinterpreted.
   
2. We know that Yoda grows in power after RotS, there isn't any reason for him to grow after such a decrease
   
3. The aging process is related to an increase of Force power, Yoda must have increase in power through years rather than decreasing
   

A missinterpredted quote ?

This theory is based on another interpretation of the sentence : Only five can I lift since I passed 700. Instead of understanding it as : Before 700 year I can lift more but now I cannot anymore, this theory understand the sentence as Wow, even though I'm over 700, I can only lift five! I'll keep working hard to lift more.. Indeed, this is a possibility in a gramatical sense, but there is some problems with it:

• why using a so cryptic sentence that more than half of the people will badly understand ?
  
• why using the age 700 while being more than 900 ? the use of 700 seems way more like a no-return line than a random age choosen in order to compare himself to Master Fae.
  
• why, if he grows in power, have he slow down ? The opposite should be expected.
  

As we can see, this theory raised way more questions than it solved and didn't work well with the other one. In addition to this, we should have some proof or quotes explaining the Yoda growth but there is none.
Clearly this theory which is based on an interpretation that demand a huge intellectual gymnastic (at least in order to find the gramatical sense) didn't work well and cannot be keep.

Post-RotS growth

This is one of the most common response that I get when saying that Yoda have decrease since 200 year:

Random guy wrote:This is a non-sense, we know that he had grown following RotS, just see that quote

The important sentence is: These Jedi spend their days honing their skills in the Force, meditating and practicing their lightsaber techniques. The mistake is pretty easy to see: their honing their SKILLS in the Force. Yes, they are learning how become more efficient with their skills, they will become more viable combatively speaking BUT we have absolutely zero proof that they will increase in term of Force power. If I follow the logic here and apply it to the whole Star Wars Timeline, the period of violent war (like TOR or Legacy) should be the period where the force users must be the most powerful because they are training themself harder than ever... Obviously this isn't true at all. Increasing your skills will make you more efficient but not more powerful in term of raw Force power.
As you can see, this theory didn't work too and is based only on a missunderstanding of a quote.

Aging process = Increase in force power ?

I think that this reason is the main one that explain why people are so reluctant to agree with the fact that Yoda could have decrease with the years. But in reality this is something really simple:
- As every living being, Jedi and Sith are aging.
- Because of this process, their natural physical condition decrease.
- In the same time, their connection to the Force increase to some extent.
- As a result because of your Force augmentation, you can compensate for your physical condition (this explain how Count Dooku can remain in such a fresh condition).
- But after a certain time, your Force power won't be able to keep your body from aging. If you didn't change of body or use an external source of power, you won't be able to resist death.
This is something pretty obvious, jedi/sith can die because of old age. Obviously they can leave longer than classical members of their species but their increase in the force won't keep them alive forever.
This is particularly visible in the first Star Wars trilogy: Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH is much weaker than his former RotS self and the same can be said for Yoda who physically died on Dagoba because of his old age.
The conclusion to this critics is pretty simple: yes when you aging, you are increasing your force powers up to the time where because of the decay of your body they will decrease. A simple graph to illustrate this:

Conclusion

We have now as a fact that Grand Master Yoda, avatar of the Light wasn't in his prime during the prequel but have past it by some unknown margin.
Now the question that can be rise is: How powerful have been prime Yoda ?. Just remember that RotS Yoda (200 years past-prime) is roughly equal to RotS Sidious.

(edited for my idiocy)

@In-sidiousvader: have you really read my blog or have you just quickly see the two sources ? Because when reading your post it seems that you didn't have  
Anyway, I will respond precisely to you when I will have more time (tomorow normally should be good)

Edited for my idiocy

@xolthol

Well this is what I get for all my cocky arrogance LMAO


I apologize no rebuttal is necassary, I simply missed the Muuntur section the first time around the images do not load for me on my computer for some reason, and I basically just skimmed, I apologize won't bother you again.

No problem. Tbh I was, really surprise by your critics, this was the reason why I asked if you have read my blog.

First of all, Great blog. There is, however, a small mistake. The source in which Yoda states he can’t lift more than 7 stones is the Jedi path, not the complete encyclopedia.

Decent post, but you failed to address the central argument(Yoda grew during his spiritual journey discounting his physical agedness)

I mean there's some information in there, but you actually really haven't disproven anything just with the information you have given.

1. Up until TPM, Yoda was under the delusion that they were in a time of peace and that the Sith were extinct. Now suddenly the Sith are back, the Clone Wars is a thing, and Yoda has a much more convicting reason than he has ever had in his entire 900 year old ass life to actually be ready for a fight and to actually focus on his combative prowess.

2. Emotional maturity and overcoming emotional hardship and those kinds of tests of a more spiritual nature tend to make force users more powerful, and Yoda was seriously tested... along numerous dimensions. From dealing with Dooku's departure, to Dooku's betrayal, to having to grow to accept the inevitable death of almost the entire Jedi Order, to having to actually face down his own inner darkness and learn greater humility, etc. etc.

3. Yoda undeniably achieves a greater holistic understanding of the force and it's nature, and a deeper relationship with it through his spiritual journey at the end of TCW.

You can point out Yoda's slight decline due to age prior to TPM, but the assumption that that holds the same through the Clone Wars doesn't really work when the Clone Wars has a set of conditions unlike any Yoda has really experienced across the span of his prior life.

Agreed with others. This blog doesn't really address any of the arguments pertaining to Yoda potentially growing in power throughout TCW.

DMB and DS0 summed it up tbh.

I mean the argument for him growing is still kinda in question tbh. The main thing I don't like though is when people say he definitely stopped growing as of ROTS and onward. I want one person to provide evidence for that claim, do it I dare you...

The evidence actually supports that he grew or at the very least maintained his power level to the best of his ability, but hey, It's very difficult to know as much as I do about SW, you ignorant infidels can still lick my boots tho

Spoiler:

LSDMB wrote:

1. Up until TPM, Yoda was under the delusion that they were in a time of peace and that the Sith were extinct. Now suddenly the Sith are back, the Clone Wars is a thing, and Yoda has a much more convicting reason than he has ever had in his entire 900 year old ass life to actually be ready for a fight and to actually focus on his combative prowess.

It seems that you forget that since the rend in the force open by Darth Tenebrous master, Dark side is feel by Jedi. It is unlikely for the Jedi to feel the dark side for the first time in 800 years and absolutely not prepared themself for an arrival of Sith.

Spoiler:

So yes, jedi were technically in peace time but they were preparing themself for the next one. In addition to this we have also the shift of the Force by Plagueis and Sidious which also must have been feel by the jedi order.

Spoiler:

Generaly for all the jedi, particulary for their grand master (ie: Yoda), this shouldn't been something casual and because of this they must have been training hemself harder and harder.
While the Clone War start, Yoda (like all other Jedi) haven't much more reason to train harder and harder. They must already done this in preparation for what will come.

But the most important point here is that even though, Yoda train himself really hard, this didn't translate into him becoming more powerful, at most this allow him to become more viable combatively.
A simple application of you theory that show its flaw: apply it to TOR era , while Jedi and Sith are at war nearly all their life, and you will result as Jedi and Sith of this era being way more powerful than in the PT era where they fight only 3 years (duration of the clone war).

LSDMB wrote:
2. Emotional maturity and overcoming emotional hardship and those kinds of tests of a more spiritual nature tend to make force users more powerful, and Yoda was seriously tested... along numerous dimensions. From dealing with Dooku's departure, to Dooku's betrayal, to having to grow to accept the inevitable death of almost the entire Jedi Order, to having to actually face down his own inner darkness and learn greater humility, etc. etc.

I'm sorry but can you provide me any single quote where it is stated that all of this increase Yoda power ? Because if you cannot, your argument is inexistant. Basically your are explaining that because Yoda successfully resist his emotions in his life, this have made him growing more powerful... This is a pretty bold argument tbh and if you cannot proove it I will disagree heavily with him. At least only based on the fact that Yoda have certainly face other emotional difficulty through years before the Prequel and still have decrease in Force.

LSDMB wrote:
3. Yoda undeniably achieves a greater holistic understanding of the force and it's nature, and a deeper relationship with it through his spiritual journey at the end of TCW.

I think that you missed the fact that increasing his power wasn't the aim of the journey but rather learning how to transcend the physical plan after his death. And once again, to my knowledge, we have zero quotes or accolades explaining that after this event Yoda become more powerful in the Force. Learning a new Force power didn't increase your power, neither having a better understanding of the Force itself. Knowledge =/= Power

LSDMB wrote:
You can point out Yoda's slight decline due to age prior to TPM, but the assumption that that holds the same through the Clone Wars doesn't really work when the Clone Wars has a set of conditions unlike any Yoda has really experienced across the span of his prior life.

And yet, you have failed to proove why this condition can increase his force power.
Last but not least, even if you can proove that Yoda have increase during TCW, you will need to proove that during this three years he grows more than during the (at least) 200 years he decreases.

DMB doesn't have to prove that though, you do. Because you are claiming that he is not in his prime during ROTS, you have to prove that the decrease over 200 years is more than his increase.

Yeah all I'm saying at the bare minimum is that it's ambiguous... which it is.

You can't prove that Yoda at any point in his life scales off of ROTS Yoda

@LSDMB:
-You didn't proove that Yoda have grown during TCW
-I have prooven that Yoda decreased for (at least) 200 years
-You didn't proove that he stopped decreasing since TPM.

If one day you proove that at least one of the three sentence above is wrong, we can debate about the difference between his decrease and his increase.

The burden of the proof that Yoda was more powerful during RotS than before is on you.

xolthol wrote:@LSDMB:
-You didn't proove that Yoda have grown during TCW
-I have prooven that Yoda decreased for (at least) 200 years
-You didn't proove that he stopped decreasing since TPM.

If one day you proove that at least one of the three sentence above is wrong, we can debate about the difference between his decrease and his increase.

The burden of the proof that Yoda was more powerful during RotS than before is on you.

I don't think so. If there are circumstances which could change Yoda's power within TCW, it is fair to say that it is ambiguous. DMB is not making a direct assertion, the burden of proof falls on you.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
I don't think so. If there are circumstances which could change Yoda's power within TCW, it is fair to say that it is ambiguous. DMB is not making a direct assertion, the burden of proof falls on you.

I beg your pardon if what I will say seems stupid to you but I have explain in my response to @LSDMB that what he puts as proofs of Yoda's growth aren't at all. So if we have no proof of any growth since TPM but have proof of a decrease for 200 years isn't it logic to say that he just continue to decrease, unless someone can give me some solid proof that he grows during this period.

"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Doesn't phase me in the slightest. All it says is that Yoda is aging and Sidious is too stronk, means nothing to me.

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Hard to say. It could imply that, but I'm not entirely convinced tbh. Yoda's growth over the Clone Wars seems to be fairly substantial, at least in theory.

In-sidiousvader wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Doesn't phase me in the slightest. All it says is that Yoda is aging and Sidious is too stronk, means nothing to me.

I'd say there's an obvious insinuation that "aging" is a relevant variable in Palpatine being "too strong" -- otherwise it seems terribly random.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Hard to say. It could imply that, but I'm not entirely convinced tbh. Yoda's growth over the Clone Wars seems to be fairly substantial, at least in theory.

Well, that depends on if we're treating Yoda's journey in the Lost Missions as Legends.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Hard to say. It could imply that, but I'm not entirely convinced tbh. Yoda's growth over the Clone Wars seems to be fairly substantial, at least in theory.

Well, that depends on if we're treating Yoda's journey in the Lost Missions as Legends.

True. What are people's stances on that?

DarthAnt66 wrote:"Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda." --- Comics Companion

Thoughts on this quote, everyone? Seems to state ROTS Yoda's not in his prime.

Technically it just says Yoda is getting older without commenting on how it's affecting his power, but I agree that the adjective's placement in that specific spot does insinuate it's a factor in the superiority the Emperor enjoys over him.