Mace Windu (TPM) vs Joruus C'baoth

The one who was considered Dooku level even at this point wins.

Joruus takes this imo

Joruus maybe

joruus, as in the clone? the dude was a whole tier above luke 1 year away from DE. he should kinda have this in bag.

I want to say Joruus, but I just don't see how he stops Mace from striking him down. We've never seen Joruus use a lightsaber. We don't even know if he has one. Mara Jade was able to close in on (an admittedly tired) Joruus and cut him down when she'd barely received any training. While I consider Joruus>Mace in terms of power, by a noticeable degree, I just don't know how he could defend himself properly.

TP shouldn't be too much of a factor. Mace has trained for decades and has an incredibly strong will. Joruus has the advantage in power but Mace is both skilled, fast and ridiculously more dangerous with a saber. He should win.

nothing states that joruus is bad with a saber whatsoever. him being vader's equal makes him much stronger than kar vastor, who has almost killed a stronger mace windu already.

Vastor scaling, lmao

why dont u counter it then?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:why dont u counter it then?

Mace's perspective is probably the most unreliable in all of Star Wars. He consistently humbles himself before the likes of Kar, Yoda, Anakin, and Depa. In their fight, Mace was heavily wounded and exhausted, and still had Kar beat until the latter exploited the ridiculous amp that Haruun Kal's jungles gave him (the dark side nexus that also weakened Mace) to strengthen and heal himself as well as gain an advantage over the two. Consider how their other fight went:

Spoiler:

Despite having a lightsaber sized hole in his gut, being heavily wounded and exhausted, and being emotionally broken over what happened to Depa, Mace could still easily stomp Kar once he got serious. This is while Kar was horrendously amped by Haruun Kal.

And Joruus does not even possess a single half-decent saber feat.

i suppose number 1 is- the obvious author intent here is that kar vastor> him. u are obviously gonna say no to that cuz u gotta prove ur own argument, but i dont think it matters, cuz- number 2- nick rostu already said that vader stomps vastor, and that vader was the only person he met who couldve killed mace windu.

i suppose number 1 is- the obvious author intent here is that kar vastor> him. u are obviously gonna say no to that cuz u gotta prove ur own argument, but i dont think it matters,

Cool, so you also believe:


Depa > Mace.
Mace > Dooku.
Therefore, Depa >> Dooku. 

His authorial intent was that Kar amped by the Haruun Kal jungle was undefeatable in CQC combat, not in the Force. 

cuz- number 2- nick rostu already said that vader stomps vastor, and that vader was the only person he met who couldve killed mace windu.

And this is significant because? If you've read Shatterpoint, you'll already know that Rostu is an untrained Force sensitive with a fairly weak connection to the Force. His opinion is made out of hero worship of Mace's abilities, and his opinion of Vader was from rumours and legends surround Order 66. Hardly a clear establishment.

It's all for naught anyway, since Mace has overpowered Kar twice when the latter was horrendously amped and the former was weakened, exhausted, and wounded. Nothing puts Kar in remotely the same ballpark as Mace in power, only in durability and strength when feeding off of Haruun Kal.

no, i dont, but that wouldve been a good point if it wasnt obvious that the mace/depa fight is pretty vader vs luke in ROTJ lol and kar was beaten in CQC, but not in the force, in case u hadnt noticed. mace won cuz of better training, exp, and wits. his power was not equal to vastor's.

if u knew anything about the character is that their race are natural born force users. idk how old he was, but he was had been using the force for decades already. and sensing is pretty much one of the mosst basic force abilities, shit that 9 y/o anakin could do in his sleep lol and im pretty sure he did see vader once before, if im not mistaken, which is where he compared vastor to him. and the amp that vastor does matter. the statement is that vader>>> amped vastor, who is likely above TPM mace anyhow, even if he is weaker than AOTC mace.

and u might be right. it IS all for naught. we have two other people say that vader is the strongest being they ever met, which would include most council members, likely including mace windu. then we have nick rostu say in 5 ABY (so he clearly is not a noob anymore, as u like to think he is) that vader was the only person he knew that was strong enough to beat mace. not to mention vader's feats, are well above mace's anyhow. hell, joruus OWN feats are above mace's.

no, i dont, but that wouldve been a good point if it wasnt obvious that the mace/depa fight is pretty vader vs luke in ROTJ lol

No it's not. Mace was hindered and wasn't fighting back, Vader was actually losing.

and kar was beaten in CQC, but not in the force, in case u hadnt noticed.

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center-Vastor's point of Force contact-to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them..."


Overpowers him twice in the Force.

mace won cuz of better training, exp, and wits. 

Earlier example where he counters Kar's Force grip and grounds it suggests otherwise.

his power was not equal to vastor's.

You mean the guy empowered by a dark side nexus that weakened Mace? 

if u knew anything about the character is that their race are natural born force users. 

They're called the Korunnai, and yes I know a lot about them. I know, for example, that they don't all have a strong connection, only a connection.

idk how old he was, but he was had been using the force for decades already. 

Not true.

sensing is pretty much one of the mosst basic force abilities, shit that 9 y/o anakin could do in his sleep lol 

With training, yes.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. 

and im pretty sure he did see vader once before, if im not mistaken, which is where he compared vastor to him

Nick also suggests that a heavily wounded, exhausted and weakened Mace is still > Kar:

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi

So unless we're also accepting that Kar is also apparently stronger in the Force than anyone in the galaxy except Mace...

the statement is that vader>>> amped vastor, who is likely above TPM mace anyhow, even if he is weaker than AOTC mace.

Even by TPM Mace is second only to Yoda and he didn't go through any massive growth between TPM and AOTC.

and u might be right. it IS all for naught. we have two other people say that vader is the strongest being they ever met,

Not what Nick said:

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.


Aside from having a "dim" connection to the Force, being more powerful than Kar isn't that impressive considering that a near-dead Mace was also > Kar. It doesn't prove Vader is superior to even an injured and near-death Mace in any way or form.

then we have nick rostu say in 5 ABY (so he clearly is not a noob anymore, as u like to think he is) that vader was the only person he knew that was strong enough to beat mace.

Nick also thought Mace was at the Jedi Temple at the time and heard through hearsay. I could say that Bruce Lee could take Muhammed Ali in a fight because I've seen the two of them perform, it doesn't mean that's what would actually happen.

not to mention vader's feats, are well above mace's anyhow.

Above this version of Mace, I'd be inclined to agree. 

hell, joruus OWN feats are above mace's.

"Joruus has the advantage in power but Mace is both skilled, fast and ridiculously more dangerous with a saber. "

i wish u didnt divide ur response into so many little parts lol

1- u make it sound like vader wasnt hindered either lol but ok, point taken i suppose?

2- it says that he grounded vastor's power or something back into the jungle, so he mightve quite literally nerfed vastor. plus, u dont know how much power power into that grip. u say it as if he completely broke through vastor's full powered grip lol

3- it actually proves my point- he is very obviously smarter, and very obviously better at controlling the force. his application and his skill with it is much better. he even has a power that can ground his power back into the jungle lol that doesnt make him stronger, it makes him hax cuz he cancel out an amp lol

4- yeah, him. i thought u knew? man, this woudlve been so much more fair if only mace had the perfect counter for dark siders, smh..

5- a connection means a connection, so i dont see what the problem is? is a weak connection suppose how much stronger someone is than someone else? is it suppose to change how sensing works? if not, then i dont see what ur point is here.

6- nice argument there. care to elaborate?

7- nick literally says that he could perfectly sense power, even with his weak connection hahahaahahha bruhhhh

8- nowhere does it imply that mace> vastor. if anything, its talking about the jedi as a whole, which should be obvious enough, cuz if not, it means that any jedi> vastor, which is not the case.

9- good for mace. and proof for lack of growth? we have him and dooku walk hand in hand as far as far growth, and we know that jedi dooku ~ TPM mace, while AOTC mace ~ AOTC dooku, so there is an obvious growth in power. actually, maybe even a big one.

10- i didnt say nick said that. read what i wrote more carefully next time.

11- what he thinks doenst matter here, since he has no good opinions for either vader nor vastor. he simply thinks that after seeing vader, he knew that vastor wasnt strong enough to beat him, ever, and that vader was the one person he knew who COULDVE beaten mace. hell, this helps my point- even with his bias towards mace, he still thinks vader> mace lol

12- so whats the problem here?

13- i think joruus has outsped luke 1 year away from DE. no way mace in fucking TPM is faster than him. joruus has shown much more control and skill with the force even when compared to stronger versions for mace. anything short of a duel, and mace might get semi stomped here.

i wish u didnt divide ur response into so many little parts lol

Sorry, just allows me to scrutinise each point one at a time.

1- u make it sound like vader wasnt hindered either lol but ok, point taken i suppose?

He might have been hindered, but it wasn't remotely comparable to not sleeping for several days, being on a dark side nexus that massively weakened him, and having a lightsaber sized hole through his guts. 

2- it says that he grounded vastor's power or something back into the jungle, so he mightve quite literally nerfed vastor. plus, u dont know how much power power into that grip. u say it as if he completely broke through vastor's full powered grip lol

...No, he literally forced off Kar's Force grip. You'd have to have power enough to force off that grip and move it to a secondary target (the jungle), which is what Mace did. 

3- it actually proves my point- he is very obviously smarter, and very obviously better at controlling the force. his application and his skill with it is much better. he even has a power that can ground his power back into the jungle lol

The hell? He literally shoves off the grip:


"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center-Vastor's point of Force contact-to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them..."


If you're grounding someone's power, you're forcing it off of you and moving it to another target. That's exactly what Mace did, meaning he'd have to have the power to do that. Unless, of course, you're conceding that an average padawan could do the same and therefore best Kar? This also debunks the whole Vader scaling since this would mean Vader ~ Mace ~ padawans > Kar,

that doesnt make him stronger, it makes him hax cuz he cancel out an amp lol

What? Mace was literally weakened by Haruun Kal's jungle and still broke out of Kar's Force grip even while in the air and thus being more vulnerable.

4- yeah, him. i thought u knew? man, this woudlve been so much more fair if only mace had the perfect counter for dark siders, smh..

You realise Mace hadn't learned to tap into the full power of Vaapad and hadn't undergone his growth to being a tier 9 at this point, right? 

5- a connection means a connection, so i dont see what the problem is? is a weak connection suppose how much stronger someone is than someone else? is it suppose to change how sensing works? if not, then i dont see what ur point is here.

Look up two terms: hero worship and reverence. The former applies to Mace, and the latter to Vader.

6- nice argument there. care to elaborate?

On what?

7- nick literally says that he could perfectly sense power, even with his weak connection hahahaahahha bruhhhh

He could sense Vader was much more powerful than Kar, and believed even a heavily wounded, exhausted and weakened Mace was also > Kar in the same novel. Your point?

8- nowhere does it imply that mace> vastor. if anything, its talking about the jedi as a whole, which should be obvious enough, cuz if not, it means that any jedi> vastor, which is not the case.

Did Nick know any other Jedi well? 

9- good for mace. and proof for lack of growth? we have him and dooku walk hand in hand as far as far growth,

We really don't. We have TPM Mace ~ Jedi Dooku, and Dooku then grew "infinitely" upon turning to the dark side. 

and we know that jedi dooku ~ TPM mace, while AOTC mace ~ AOTC dooku,

Basis for the second scaling?

 so there is an obvious growth in power. actually, maybe even a big one.

Again, elaboration needed.

10- i didnt say nick said that. read what i wrote more carefully next time.

then we have nick rostu say in 5 ABY (so he clearly is not a noob anymore, as u like to think he is) that vader was the only person he knew that was strong enough to beat mace.


Again: I could say that Bruce Lee could take Muhammed Ali in a fight because I've seen the two of them perform, it doesn't mean that's what would actually happen.

11- what he thinks doenst matter here, since he has no good opinions for either vader nor vastor. he simply thinks that after seeing vader, he knew that vastor wasnt strong enough to beat him, ever, and that vader was the one person he knew who COULDVE beaten mace. hell, this helps my point- even with his bias towards mace, he still thinks vader> mace lol

What bias, lol? He was absolutely terrified of Vader, and was only mildly scared of Mace. Fear is a much more healthy motivator for an opinion than respect.

12- so whats the problem here?

That Mace still > Vader in skill and physicals even at this point.

13- i think joruus has outsped luke 1 year away from DE.

And? 

no way mace in fucking TPM is faster than him.

Interesting.

joruus has shown much more control and skill with the force even when compared to stronger versions for mace.

Lol, no. Prime Mace > Joruus in virtually every regard save for TP.

anything short of a duel, and mace might get semi stomped here.

Which is basically what I said...

the moment u said "mace> joruus in anything but TP" and then said "i agree with joruus stomping in anything but a duel" made me quit this argument. u win. i quit. if u can see TPM mace windu beating ROTJ vader, then good for u man. i dont.

the moment u said "mace> joruus in anything but TP" and then said "i agree with joruus stomping in anything but a duel" made me quit this argument.

You missed a key word before "Mace".

jedi master? council member? black guy?  "not yet"? "take a seat"? "this party is over"? im running outta shit here... oh wait "he's to dangerous to be kept alive!"

...

Lol, no. Prime  Mace > Joruus in virtually every regard save for TP.

As for TPM Mace...

anything short of a duel, and mace might get semi stomped here.

Which is basically what I said...

BOD stomping.

then that means u agree that he stomps, and that he being 'as formidable as darth vader' means he wins pretty much all matches?
 good.

???

Since when do I have Vader low?

... idk if ur talking to me or not