SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

• Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  
• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i thought u and BOD were doing this, but i guess not huh

Jacen wrote:ISV is fighting an uphill battle, but TAEP anyways.

ISV wrote:This is easily one of the most underrated things Vader has going for him in this match. People seem to think that Darth Vader’s earlier iterations and his later ones don’t have any quantifiable ways of proving how much he grew and what causes this growth. Thus I have devised a complete timeline of the events in Vader’s life where he grows how much he grows etc:


Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader (end of book)
Even at the start of Dark Lord the rise of Darth Vader, Vader comments that his feet weigh him down and if he must move with caution lest he stumble or trip over himself:


The tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose claw-like toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footgear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, they were so heavy that he often felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity. What good was motion of this sort, if he was going to have to call on the Force even to walk from place to place! He may as well have resigned himself to using a repulsor chair and abandoned any hope of movement."


 Vader’s comments of his hatred of the suit are important, they represent how restricted he had become since his time as a cyborg. The book takes place over the span of a few months, but when Darth Vader duels and kills Bol Chatak, the Jedi Olee Starstone witnesses it. Vader is damaged in this fight and has to return to Coruscant for repairs during which time he tells sidious he will be responsible for his armor and sidious agrees. Now what happens during this time isn’t clear, but what we do know is that Vader becomes faster than he had been when facing Bol Chatak:


But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.


Furthermore, after Vader has fought and beaten Roan Shryne:


Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space.Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder. Above him Vader jumped from the bridge, dropping to the floor with a grace he hadn't displayed before and alighting just meters away.


After killing Roan Shryne, Vader has this to say about himself:


More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.


So Vader who only a few months earlier complained about walking has gotten to the point where he considers his suit “little more than an outfit” and feels  “self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced.” Of course Sidious also echoes this statement by feeling Vader in a conversation after Kashyyyk:


Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.


Essentially, the point is that Darth Vader’s growth rate from a few months is colossal and there is no reason to assume It doesn’t continue through the rest of his life.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:“I owe you a debt," he told Vader. "It took you to bring me back to the Force."

 "And you to firm my faith in the power of the dark side, Master Shryne.”

ISV wrote:Okay so to kick this off I have to include one of the instances of Vader’s yearly growth, which starts off with an assasination attempt by the emperor to test Vader’s mettle. He sends Sa Cuis after Vader to try and kill him, the results are a fairly even battle:


Vader matched him step for step in the standoff as they circled each other. Nothing personal. Perhaps Cuis thought that an ice-cold act would intimidate him. But it was anger and all the other brutal emotions that would win the fight.
Vader lunged.
My Master wants me dead.
He brought his saber down hard in a straight arc and Cuis blocked it with both of his, rasping them straight down its length as if sharpening a metal blade. Vader withdrew and sliced upward, then feinted to the left, wrong-footing the Jedi, who leapt back against the trunk of one of the trees. Vader made a double lunge on his right leg, dipping under the swirling twin beams.
He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it. My Master forced me to live and now he wants me dead. The trunk creaked and toppled and Cuis deflected the weight of branches with the Force. It bought Vader a second. He used it to send Cuis's white beam spinning into the fountain, clattering down the wet stones. As Cuis's remaining lightsaber flew from his left to his right hand, Vader intercepted it, jerking it high into the air and using the Force to throw it to the other side of the courtyard, out of reach.
Cuis leapt high and saved his legs from a savage low sweep, but his opponent had him backed up almost into the angle of the walls. Vader couldn't match Cuis's agility, so instead he reached out with his left hand: the Force seized Cuis's throat.
It gave Vader a familiar and painful jolt of recognition. He shut out what he knew was a memory. Instead he concentrated on using a wholly unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it. Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader's remote, crushing grip with his own Force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort. Vader forced him lower, and lower.


Vader here has a decent Duel with Sa Cuis and it’s noted even after Vader summons his “unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it.” that “Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader’s remote, crushing grip with his own force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort.” This is an example of Cuis contending with Vader’s power. It is only after his oxygen is drained that “Vader forced him lower, and lower.” The last bit of evidence that says that Vader was drawing on a rage amp that had “given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi.”:
He was still savoring rage, seeing how it had swept through him and given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi and keep the memories locked deep within. He shut down his energy blade with a flick of his thumb.
 Combine this with their earlier seemingly comparable duel and you can conclude that Cuis is definitely not just fodder to Vader, he has to work to overwhelm him. 


That idea doesn’t work anymore for his 18BBY iteration:


For a dead man, Sa Cuis still had a fine lightsaber technique. Lord Vader swung his blade and the two beams of red energy rasped off each other.
Cuis - one of his clones, anyway - circled and Vader matched him, keeping a constant distance between them. He had no intention of killing the assassin again. Arkanian Micro had spent more than a year creating this clone of the Dark Jedi and it would have been wasteful to destroy him or any of his five brothers simply to prove superiority.
Besides, they were men. Vader tried not to lose sight of that. If he had wanted mindless predictability, he would have commissioned droids for the Imperial Army.
He was aware of two people watching the duel intently from the dais set a little above the training-hall floor; his master Emperor Palpatine and one of his aides, Lieutenant Erv Lekauf. Part of his mind could sense Lekauf's discomfort at being so close to the Emperor without Vader beside him.
"Enough," said Vader, and shut down his lightsaber. The Cuis clone snapped his blade off too but watched Vader cautiously until he stood back to allow the clones to continue their lightsaber drill with the instructor. Vader was satisfied. The clones had retained all the speed and sharp reflexes of the unfortunate Emperor's Hand whose genome was now theirs. He hoped they had somehow inherited his extraordinary loyalty, too.


So first of all Vader comments that they are just as fast and skilled. They would naturally be equally as powerful as force sensitive clones like starkiller are commonly equal to their hosts:





Now with that information, Vader does this to multiple:


"Get clear," said Vader, and stabbed his Force reach through the shield of the Cuis clones, seizing their throats and crushing them. One yielded and Vader moved in fast, taking three strides forward and slashing his saber down to fell the clone.
...
He fell, gasping, as the clones closed in on the Dark Jedi and Vader burst apart their Force shields with pure focused rage.


Speculation on my part, but your post about a week ago on Joruus C’baoth vs Darth Tyranus detailed that you accepted Ant’s new methodology and that the requirement for someone to physically ragdoll the other and break the force barrier was a sign of a very large gap between the two. Wonderful, then I also assume you are willing to freely concede Vader about tripled in power in the span of one year, to the point where he can casually engage Sa Cuis’s clones in a lightsaber duel and not be stressed out by the speed or technique of the former emperors hand. You would also be conceding that Darth Vader is far beyond his initial 19bby self who was growing at an alarming rate in the span of a few months.
Conclusion: Vader has ragdoll gaps between himself in his annual growth rate.

ISV wrote:There is a misconception on Vader during the Original trilogy era, most people use quotes citing the idea that he is “a shadow of his former self” or his fight with Ben as a point of contention for why Vader doesn’t grow much or in this case, why Vader is locked beneath Dooku. I feel I should just address some aspects of the fight that haven’t been mentioned before as well as Vader’s apparent inferiority to Ben. So for starters people argue that Ben and Vader are equals as of this fight some even going as far as to say that Ben is superior to Vader. I don’t really agree with that, but there is no reason to address it since IG hasn’t even mentioned Ben yet, what I will say is there is definitely evidence suggesting the opposite:

ISV wrote:I’m not going to say much here, but Vader himself claims that ESB Luke is more of a challenge than Ben was during The Empire Strikes Back Audiodrama:


“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”


Quote is reaffirmed by an OOU source The Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook:

[...]

As well as Vader’s own musings in Shadows of the Empire:


Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.

Shadows of the Empire

Now Vader’s relation to ESB Luke is one of vast superiority, he has a heavily “one-sided duel” with Luke on Bespin:

ISV wrote:Kenobi:

Darth Tyranus is a very potent and powerful specimen, there is no doubt that he is one of the lesser Titans of his age, though I feel he is overinflated a lot by this fanbase. Allow me to present a more accurate depiction of the Count:

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
[...]
He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Revenge of the Sith novel

Kenobi has speed and defensive capabilities that Dooku “dare not strike.” While I freely admit that Dooku is likely a marginally better swordsman and probably has more refined technical skill, the passage here seems to indicate that Kenobi is at least as fast as Count Dooku and isn’t absolute fodder to him. Some will obviously cite the movie depiction of the fight wherein Dooku literally ragdolls Kenobi and sends him flying over the balcony, yet Kenobi is distracted when this happens: 


He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —


Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

The relativity to Dooku that Kenobi shares is undeniable, and this gap would naturally get larger all throughout Revenge of the Sith up until the end, as we know that Kenobi grew to the point where he became equal to MFV:

Path of Destruction wrote:"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

ISV wrote:Now, if you want to put MFK above ANH Kenobi that is more than understandable. Yet, we do know that Ben “continued his exercises” on tatooine during his time, and trained so that he should "be ready to face anything." Additionally, Ben has been studying the force for 19 years and “Honing his skills”, sure he very well might be weaker, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that he deteriorated in the first place. We know that Kenobi being equal with MFV means he jumped to a 9 or has the speed and power to contend with one at the end of ROTS, we also know from Gillard that “there are huge gaps between levels” so if Ben is weaker than his former self that being Mustafar Kenobi, could he not still be comparable to his Invisible hand variation in skill, did his power deteriorate at all? The better question is, isn’t it likely the man who has been “practicing his lightsaber techniques” and “honing his skills with the force” who “had not let his reflexes get dull” is at least relative to his most previous variation, that being Mustafar Kenobi? Well, that same Kenobi is utterly inferior to Vader in a few years anyway which means that it looks something like:

Rotj Vader > ESB Vader >>> Luke >> ANH Vader =< Ben ~ ROTS Kenobi ~ Dooku.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily.

Star Wars: The Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:He had felt like this on Korriban. When along with the Padawans and their Masters they had gone into the great valley of the Sith, into their very tombs. That radiating energy had caused them to feel dizzy and sick. He paused. He must be near Sith artifacts. Maybe a Holocron. That would explain it. Well, he had conquered the feeling then, as a boy of sixteen. He could do it again. He just had to keep going-Then the voices began.

Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:Dooku had at his disposal a Sith holocron. This powerful and ancient dark side resource enhanced his own powers and helped to entice other Force users into the Separatist cause.

ISV wrote:Count Dooku is noted to be exhausted by several sources after toying with Obi-wan and Anakin during AOTC:

ISV wrote:Now we know that Anakin Skywalker as of Revenge of the Sith is stronger than Dooku:


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.



That same strength can exhaust Dooku to the point he is willing to abandon his “honor” or “ego” and call for help:


Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"



We know that after his reconstruction Vader considers himself to be physically stronger to Anakin Skywalker: 

Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


We also know that Vader is physically stronger than he has ever been by Return of the Jedi:

Which means that Vader should be overpowering Dooku more than he did as Anakin on the Invisible hand. Judging by that fight, we can conclude that each of Vader’s strikes are going to force “Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder” just as they did on the invisible hand. 

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"
"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."
...
Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.
I’m more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

Revenge of the Sith wrote:"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."

Revenge of the Sith wrote:"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.
He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.
... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.
Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:The difference between Coruscant and here is like the difference between swimming in fresh water and in the ocean. I feel so buoyant.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:Anakin hung in the air for an impossibly long time, let himself fall at last into a shoulder roll, two more shots at a droid trying to sneak up behind him, taking off its weapon hand and blowing out a knee, and then he was standing, perfectly balanced, with the blaster pistols steaming in the thin Vjun rain. "I could walk on water," he said. 

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:In the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

Star Wars: Ultimate Blueprints wrote:Despite the benefits of such attributes, Vader’s artificial limbs render him unable to conjure or repel Sith lightning,

Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Unfortunately, because of his artificial arms, he was unable to conjure Sith Lightning or be invulnerable to it

The Official Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:When she claimed to be Sith, Dooku laughed in her face before shocking her into unconsciousness with Force Lightning. Later, when she had recovered, Ventress launched an attack on Dooku. The Count easily defeated the woman and destroyed her lightsabers.

• Dooku is relativistic to Yoda, somebody far, far above Vader.
  
• Dooku >> ROTS Kenobi >> Ben > ANH Vader 
  
• Vader is arguably with his AOTC iteration in power and saber skill, both of which are far outstripped by Dooku. 
  
• Your argument that ESB Luke > Dooku makes no sense when we look at the fact that Dooku is able to easily throw around carriers while scarcely amped, something offset by his growth over the Clone Wars, whereas Luke finds the task of moving an X-Wing impossible.
  
• Vader’s unique weakness to lightning leaves him extremely vulnerable to Dooku’s attacks.
  

MasterCilghal wrote:Please refrain from giving your opinions on the arguments themselves, this is a debate between IG and ISV.

Isv wrote:You said you wanted to see me debate, before I counter I want to know have I been satisfactory so far?

MasterCilghal wrote:

Isv wrote:You said you wanted to see me debate, before I counter I want to know have I been satisfactory so far?

I’ll tell you once the debate is over.

Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see

Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see

Isv wrote:

Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see

Thanks Cheth. Stay tuned, rebuttal is going to be coming either today or tomorrow hopefully today if I can get my laptop working 

IG wrote:
Why is Vader’s growth from when he literally just gets in his suit to a few months later going to be indicative of linear growth throughout? Vader just got into a metal suit that restricts his every movement, of course he isn’t going to be comfortable in it. It’s like saying that somebody became thinner because the first time they put something on, it felt really tight, but after a while, it was comfortable.

IG wrote: Vader’s boost post-Shryne isn’t a normal power increase either, as he states in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader:


Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:
“I owe you a debt," he told Vader. "It took you to bring me back to the Force."


 "And you to firm my faith in the power of the dark side, Master Shryne.”

IG wrote:
After fighting Kenobi on Mustafar, Vader doesn’t even have that much faith in the Dark Side’s power, there’s no doubt that once his faith in its power has returned, he’ll improve a lot more. Another thing to note is that Vader’s power growth should begin to lessen and lessen as he ages; we expect a youngling or padawan to grow at a far greater pace than a master. He lacks his youthful energy when he’s in his 40s, he’s in his early 20s as of 19 BBY, so his growth is naturally better.

IG wrote:Yet Vader’s so called “massive” growth isn’t necessarily linear. There’s nothing that substantiates the notion. Anakin’s growth from TPM to AOTC is utterly nothing compared to his AOTC to ROTS growth. Likewise Obi-Wan’s growth from TPM to AOTC is minimal in contrast to his growth from AOTC to ROTS. Also to note is that if Vader grows a ragdoll gap each year, that’s around 23 ragdoll gaps he grows before his death. Given that the gap between Maul and SIdious as of TCW isn’t that large, it’s impossible to say that Vader grows 23 times a lot more than that one gap. It makes no sense whatsoever without rendering Vader far more powerful than perhaps even Prime Luke, ROTJ Sidious, etc. It’s like… He can’t utterly oneshot SK in TFU 2, despite the so called “ragdoll gaps” he jumps in between games. As of ANH, he struggles with Ben. Even if somehow Ben is with his ROTS iteration as you claim, then how has Vader fallen 19 ragdoll gaps after his dismemberment? Are you claiming Roan Shryne is 19 ragdoll gaps beneath Ben? Like the sheer absurdity of that claim astounds me. 19 ragdoll gaps, as I’ve said already, are 19 gaps that are larger than the gaps between Maul and Sidious. Like is it feasible to claim that 19 ragdoll gaps exist between Ben and 19 BBY Vader? Between Ben and Celeste Morne? The implications here are astounding; ESB Luke is somehow what, 10 ragdoll gaps above Shryne? 20? What you’re claiming makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

IG wrote:While there may be evidence stating that Vader is > Kenobi, there’s far more compelling evidence to the contrary, from sources such as Leland Chee and George Lucas himself:

IG wrote:Here we see Chee saying that Kenobi > Vader. There aren’t mental gymnastics required to clarify this, he outright states “Obi-Wan is stronger than Vader in EP4”. Likewise, DK books clarify that Kenobi intentionally threw the fight, something Chee hints at when he says that Obi-Wan ‘lost’ to Vader in quotation marks. 

IG wrote:
According to Lucas, Obi-Wan is a “6”, Vader is a “4”, and ESB Luke is a “2”. A common rebuttal to this is the “Vader is 80% of Sidious” quote, something that makes no sense whatsoever. All scales don’t have similar increases--they aren’t proportional. Obi-Wan being a 6 comparative to Vader’s 4 doesn’t mean he’s 1.5x more powerful, it means he’s more powerful, but by an indeterminate amount. 

IG wrote:
To begin, Vader’s quote in ESB explains itself, Luke’s mobility makes him somebody that Vader enjoys fighting more than Obi-Wan; sport is defined as, “an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment”. Meaning that Vader finds Luke a more entertaining fight than he found Kenobi. 

IG wrote:
As for your Shadows of the Empire statements, they make no sense. Luke being the strongest of all Jedi means he’s stronger than Yoda ever was, and Vader (as Anakin) knew Yoda, and how powerful he was. He also knew that Yoda was strong enough to face Sidious in a head-on duel. Yet Lucas remarks that Vader is “no longer as strong as the Emperor [during ROTS]” after Kenobi disembowels him. Of course you could assume that it means that Luke is only > Ben (as you are), but the fact that the statement encompasses all Jedi, evidenced by “the other Jedi were all extinct” means that Vader is referring to all of the Jedi that ever lived, or at least those that he has met. 

IG wrote:Dooku’s surprise at Kenobi rapidly changing his style from Shii-Cho and Ataro (two forms that he is explicitly familiar with, Shii-Cho being a basic form taught to younglings and Ataro being the preferred form of Dooku’s own apprentice--and Kenobi’s master) is not at all indicative of a fight on even grounds between the pair. In fact, once Dooku becomes remotely aware of what Kenobi’s doing, he (while extremely exhausted nonetheless) is capable of using “the slightest whipcrack” of power to throw Kenobi back (and even if Kenobi does have his wall down, it’s rather embarrassing that “the master” of Soresu, the foremost defensive style is caught with his pants down--unless Dooku is able to move so quickly that Kenobi is completely unable to put his wall back up) with a “negligent flick” of his wrist.  

IG wrote:Obi Wan is described as being “almost impossible” to take by surprise, meaning that as you’ve indicated, Dooku is able to attack so quickly, so “sudden[ly]”, as your junior novelization puts it, that Kenobi is caught off-guard is a clear depiction of a massive disparity between the pair. Dooku is able to fight Anakin-effing-Skywalker and Obi-Wan at the same time, yet is able to knock Skywalker aside and then easily toss Kenobi away is demonstrative of disparity. While Dooku is not shown to be able to easily tear through Kenobi’s barrier, he’s shown the ability to attack Kenobi and augment himself to a sufficient degree that Kenobi is incapable of countering him, even after the latter has realized what’s going on. 

IG wrote:

IG wrote:Barriers are extremely easy to throw up--shown by Kas’im:





Path of Destruction wrote:
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

IG wrote:


At “the last possible instant”, he’s able to protect himself from a massive TK blast of Bane’s, something that Kenobi is incapable of doing, by no fault of his own, it’s just that Dooku is so quick that he can augment himself faster than Kenobi (also augmenting himself, as this is a combat situation) cannot react. 

IG wrote:Now on-towards MFK. It makes no sense to assume that Anakin is anything but hindered on Mustafar. Gillard notes that Anakin hasn’t “mastered the mental side of fighting” yet, and it is also noted that Anakin is “consumed by his rage” on Mustafar. Kenobi’s “equality” to him is lackluster, as it’s explicitly noted to be because of their mutual experience with one another. While obviously the connection goes two ways, it’s important to note that the connection should help Kenobi more, as he’s a defensive fighter. In the Revenge of the Sith novel, it’s noted that with every exchange, Kenobi “gave ground”, and that it, “was his way”. 

IG wrote:
Kenobi declining over his stay on Tatooine is explicitly noted by the fact that he is a “shadow of his former self”. Vader tells Kenobi “Your powers are weak, old man”, explicitly noting the fact that Kenobi is weaker than he once was, and that he’s now an old man, with far inferior stamina. Light-siders tend to decline around the middle age, Qui-Gon did so, Obi-Wan is seemingly doing so (I think he does at least, given the wealth of evidence that supports the notion).

IG wrote:
You conclude here that Luke >> ANH Vader by his “superiority” to Ben. Yet this makes no sense. As of ESB, Luke deems the very idea of moving even an X-Wing out of a swamp “impossible”. Let alone by himself, he believes nobody can do it, including Yoda, and even Vader. 

IG wrote:
Yet we see Dooku casually throwing around massive ships, including a carrier with ease:


Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:
They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."






Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:
He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily.



While one might argue that Dooku is amped by the nexus of Korriban, and therefore this feat is non-applicable to Dooku’s base state, there is evidence to the contrary. 





Star Wars: The Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:
He had felt like this on Korriban. When along with the Padawans and their Masters they had gone into the great valley of the Sith, into their very tombs. That radiating energy had caused them to feel dizzy and sick. He paused. He must be near Sith artifacts. Maybe a Holocron. That would explain it. Well, he had conquered the feeling then, as a boy of sixteen. He could do it again. He just had to keep going-Then the voices began.




Here, Ferus Olin likens the sensations that Sith Holocrons or Artifacts have upon him as being just as potent as Korriban’s nexus. Just a little bit dizzy or sick. To be succinct, the nexus is weak as piss.

IG wrote:Like, I don’t even know why you’d put that argument there other than to please Vader fans. ESB Luke > Dooku? Are you even serious right now? Of course, let’s have the guy with literally less than 2 months of training go up against one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time and a contemporary of (some of) the PT Titans, that’ll go over well.

IG wrote:No, he’s noted to be exhausted after toying with Kenobi and actually engaging Skywalker. Gillard notes, "Of course, he's the chosen one," about Skywalker. "The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion."



Anakin has potential on a scale unheard of anywhere. Of course sometimes that potential is going to manifest (not necessarily the full potential, but he will become far more powerful in a “flash of brilliance”) physically. 

IG wrote:Also to note is that Dooku does get tired, but he is still capable of tangling with Yoda and actually is noted to exhaust Yoda as well.

IG wrote:And here you forget a fundamental part of SW lore: Augmentation raises your physical strength, and aug is directly correlated to one’s force power. Anakin’s massive augmentation is what allows him to be this much stronger than Dooku, not anything else. Anakin is more powerful, which is why he’s in turn physically stronger. Vader without augmentation of course, is physically stronger than Anakin with it, but that’s obvious, as a cyborg is naturally going to win an arm-wrestling contest with a human if there’s no outside factors (the force included) interfering. 

IG wrote:Also to note is that Anakin’s power as of this point is above that of Yoda:

IG's quote wrote:Labyrinth of Evil wrote:
Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

IG's quote wrote:Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:
"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"
"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."
...
Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.
I’m more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

IG's quote wrote:Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."

IG's quote wrote:
Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

IG's quote wrote:Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

IG wrote:Dooku is able to deflect blows from Anakin in his “Zonakin” state, a state far more powerful than his base state, where he’s > Yoda. Also to note is that Dooku is exhausted, yet he’s capable of deflecting blows from a foe “>” or “>>” Yoda himself. 

IG wrote:The most significant piece of information in Dooku’s favor is perhaps his relativity (even parity) to Yoda. 

IG's quote wrote: While Dooku was amped on Vjun, Yoda was likewise, confirmed by both Sean Stewart and in the novel itself, where all the Jedi are amped, therefore making it far more likely that Yoda was:

IG wrote:
Dooku’s able to hold his own with Yoda, who’s arguably amped more so than he is, an indefinite showing of relativity, if not parity. After his dismemberment, “he wasn't as strong as the Emperor [ROTS]”. Yoda is an equal to Sidious, if not slightly better, and Dooku’s showings against him are far, far beyond what Vader has compared to the PT titans. To build on one of my earlier rebuttals, Yoda tells Kenobi that he will “never be powerful enough” to defeat Palpatine. Yet Dooku is almost as powerful as somebody that is equal to the Emperor himself. 

IG wrote:The quote here has Hidalgo speaking on Lucas’ behalf, rendering it G-Canon. As it came out before ROTS, it’s worth noting that it likely refers to him during AOTC. Here he notes specifically that “the skill and power” Anakin shows at the time is > what he shows as Vader. He is more powerful, and more skilled (not necessarily technical skill, but in aug at least he’s >, rendering overall skill better) than he is during ROTJ. Vader’s powers are “drastically decreased” after his injuries, so even if you want to say that he’s > AOTC Anakin, that doesn’t change the fact that Dooku was able to stomp him bar the flash of brilliance. 

IG wrote:Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:
Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

IG wrote:In comparison to Yoda, Luke is “not that powerful”. As Luke and Vader are equals in the force, and with a lightsaber per a plethora of sources, it’s safe to say that Vader himself is “not that powerful” compared to Yoda. Dooku, on the other hand, is near Yoda in power and skill with a saber. I think it’s safe to say that Dooku is superior. 

IG wrote:Vader’s uniquely bad at repelling lightning:

Star Wars: Ultimate Blueprints wrote:
Despite the benefits of such attributes, Vader’s artificial limbs render him unable to conjure or repel Sith lightning,

Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:
Unfortunately, because of his artificial arms, he was unable to conjure Sith Lightning or be invulnerable to it

IG wrote:Dooku is able to use Sith Lightning, and is surprisingly proficient in it, to a point where he’s able to take out powerful beings like Ventress with it:

The Official Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:
When she claimed to be Sith, Dooku laughed in her face before shocking her into unconsciousness with Force Lightning. Later, when she had recovered, Ventress launched an attack on Dooku. The Count easily defeated the woman and destroyed her lightsabers.

IG wrote:This gives Dooku a massive advantage, as Vader’s inability to counter an important part of Dooku’s skillset leaves him extremely vulnerable to any lightning attacks that Dooku uses, especially since Dooku is capable of defeating foes such as Ventress with lightning. 

IG wrote:I think that I’ve sufficiently established why Dooku wins this fight, but to reiterate:

Dooku is relativistic to Yoda, somebody far, far above Vader.

IG wrote:Dooku >> ROTS Kenobi >> Ben > ANH Vader 

IG wrote:Vader is arguably with his AOTC iteration in power and saber skill, both of which are far outstripped by Dooku. 

IG wrote:Your argument that ESB Luke > Dooku makes no sense when we look at the fact that Dooku is able to easily throw around carriers while scarcely amped, something offset by his growth over the Clone Wars, whereas Luke finds the task of moving an X-Wing impossible.

IG wrote:Vader’s unique weakness to lightning leaves him extremely vulnerable to Dooku’s attacks.