Starkiller vs Exar Kun

Interesting. So do the reasons you had Kun with Vader disappear out of thin air.

Flawless logic. Only problem with it is that I believe KOTOR Revan was below ROTJ Vader anyway, so him being sub that Revan would mean I'd have to lower Kun, or boost Revan up. If I boost KOTOR Revan up, I then have to mess with firmly established scaling (and no, not scaling established by me before you throw out another petty insult). Likewise, I have to mess with my scaling of Revan Reborn despite indications, then Foundry Revan, then SoR Revan, all of whom I have positioned based on their feats, accolades and scaling. Kun would then have to be lowered below KOTOR Revan to create a logical system that doesn't interfere with the current scaling and counter evidence we've seen. 

I don't know what your problem is this week, but I'm not in the mood for your childishness. Get a grip or move on.

@BoD 

> "Childishness"

> Throwing a tanrum

Well, that's me shut up. What can I do against the limitless wit of IG?

@BoD Sorry for getting a bit out of hand lol. Just going a bit batshit today.

Let’s stay on topic without the insults.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Let’s stay on topic without the insults.

Kk.

BoD wrote:Flawless logic. Only problem with it is that I believe KOTOR Revan was below ROTJ Vader anyway, so him being sub that Revan would mean I'd have to lower Kun, or boost Revan up. If I boost KOTOR Revan up, I then have to mess with firmly established scaling (and no, not scaling established by me before you throw out another petty insult). Likewise, I have to mess with my scaling of Revan Reborn despite indications, then Foundry Revan, then SoR Revan, all of whom I have positioned based on their feats, accolades and scaling. Kun would then have to be lowered below KOTOR Revan to create a logical system that doesn't interfere with the current scaling and counter evidence we've seen. 

I don't know what your problem is this week, but I'm not in the mood for your childishness. Get a grip or move on.

Honestly, this doesn’t make any sense, though. There’s no scaling systems connecting KOTOR Revan and ROTJ Vader. Their only links are through both being inferior to the PT titans. However, since Vader is grossly inferior to them per Lucas, Hidalgo, and co., you can raise KOTOR Revan substantially without issue.

Honestly, this doesn’t make any sense, though. There’s no scaling systems connecting KOTOR Revan and ROTJ Vader. Their only links are through both being inferior to the PT titans. However, since Vader is grossly inferior to them per Lucas, Hidalgo, and co., you can raise KOTOR Revan substantially without issue.

Not really. For example, say I have Revan Reborn as a bit under Vitiate. KOTOR Revan is said to be far less powerful than his novel iteration, which automatically puts a >>> barrier gap between the two. I then have to factor in why Kun is <<<< KOTOR Revan but this doesn't boost KOTOR Revan much closer to novel Vitiate on account of Kun's showings, which while obviously not novel Vitiate level, are considerable enough that he can be argued to be fairly close. We know KOTOR Revan is much weaker than novel Vitiate per his own admission, and his belief that even as Revan Reborn he isn't strong enough to match or beat him. If Vitiate ~/> Revan Reborn >>> KOTOR Revan >>> Exar Kun, then the reasoning for the power growth between KOTOR and Reborn (which we know was massive, per Revan's own words) becomes contradictory.

If we argue that Kun's feats aren't remotely close to Vitiate's, I then have to lower Kun to compensate for that, meaning that I can't boost KOTOR much (if at all) on account of Kun being nowhere near as impressive as I thought.

On top of that, I then have to factor in the growth between Reborn and SoR, with the latter being confirmed to be below SWTOR Vitiate.

My positioning for Vader is not only based on his feats, but also his scaling and power growth. AFAIK, Hidalgo has never claimed Vader <<< the PT titans, only that Luke (at his baseline level) is "not very powerful" compared to Yoda, which as I've said before can refer to many different interpretations of power, including applying your raw power. 

I'm not saying ROTJ Vader ~ the PT titans by any means, but I have him around the same level as Dooku, being able to avoid being ragdolled or maybe even outright dominated by the titans, but still significantly below them. I also don't see Revan Reborn's performance against Vitiate for example being completely out of the realm of possibility for someone like Vader and Dooku, based on the latter's tenuous comparability to the PT titans and the potential for the former to be around the same level. 

I'll post later about my personal problems with the Malak >>> Kun quote later, but my knowledge of Kun is admittedly limited. Most of my knowledge of him comes from SI and the few sources I've read with him in. I'm planning to read TOTJ more thoroughly soon (I stopped about midway), but a lot of the arguments I've seen for him make me think it difficult to cap him as <<< KOTOR Revan.

However, if he is, the problem I originally mentioned with Revan's power growth and his being capped below SWTOR Vitiate still applies, and as I said I'm not sure ROTJ (and only ROTJ) Vader for example couldn't replicate Revan's performance against Vitiate (albeit only with his lightsaber). SoR Revan, however, is in a different ballpark to ROTJ Vader. 

I suck at explaining my opinions on here so DM me if you need a more detailed/fleshed out explanation with evidence.

@BoD:

KOTOR Revan is neither stated to be far less powerful than Revan Reborn nor Vitiate. I think you're confusing him with MW Revan (who is vastly less powerful than KOTOR Revan anyway). Though, the healing and purification of Revan Reborn's essence and recovery of vast knowledge likely made him more powerful, as it did to the SOR Hero under similar circumstances. As for Vader, Hidalgo states he's significantly less powerful and skilled than AOTC Anakin. And, even if you think he's talking about "flashes of brilliance"/Yoda-tier AOTC Anakin, the gap between ROTS Anakin and ROTJ Vader is described as "great," "drastic," and "a lot." Overall, it seems your prioritizing your (suspect) belief that Vader is relative to Dooku and (false) belief that Vader is near the ROTS titans over any other considerations, though that's not at all necessary.

DarthAnt66 Got to finish my uni readings so will get back to you in the next couple of days.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Kun's mastery should allow him to undermine and exploit Starkiller's volatile defenses.

Elaborate, please.

One who isn't Sub-ESB Luke wins

OT - Starkiller wins, ignoring haxx.

BoD wrote:DarthAnt66 Got to finish my uni readings so will get back to you in the next couple of days.

I can't believe they expect you to read weeks worth of material amidst the Covid scare? It reminds me of the Pink Floyd song Another Brick in the Wall when Roger/David say "Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!"

Quorian Debatist wrote:

BoD wrote:DarthAnt66 Got to finish my uni readings so will get back to you in the next couple of days.

I can't believe they expect you to read weeks worth of material amidst the Covid scare? It reminds me of the Pink Floyd song Another Brick in the Wall when Roger/David say "Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!"

Thanks for being so concerned about my wellbeing so much that you keep replying to old posts of mine, Bran. You see, this time of the year is when my university is switching to online exams and 3,000 word projects to be completed, so debating becomes less of a priority beyond small posts. Thanks for your concern, though. It always touches my heart to see you showing such compassion.

By all means: if you'd like, I can provide you with some of the readings I have to do for my referencing and bibliography. 

NotAA3 wrote:

OT - Starkiller wins, ignoring haxx.

Prove it. Kun's feats massacre Starkiller's.

@NotAA3: Why would Kun's haxx be ignored?

@EmperorCaedus

Why would Kun's haxx be ignored?

I'm not saying we ignore haxx when considering this matchup - it should be fairly obvious reading the rules that nothing excludes Kun from using them - I'm saying I think Kun's haxx is his only shot when he's otherwise combatively outclassed (i.e. Starkiller would win if we ignored haxx as stated in my original post). I thought it would be a little odd if I said Kun wins when I've said in the past I have SK above him combatively, so I made sure to clarify that I do think SK is the better fighter, but Kun's haxx could potentially give him the win.

@LadyKulvax

Prove it. Kun's feats massacre Starkiller's.

Kun has no feats that "massacre Starkiller's". He has absolutely nothing on SK's environmental feats (i.e. re-directing an ISD, atomising The Salvation, etc), nor SK's combative feats (i.e. defending against Sheev's Lightning, ragdolling Vader, defeating the army of Starkiller Clones, etc).

Kun is more powerful than BFC Luke who can reconstruct and bulldoze a mountain-sized fortress. He's magnitudes of power beyond Tott Doneeta who can tank the power of a Rylothian heat storm. He's far more powerful than one-shotting Thon who can contain Ambria's spirits who could consume an entire sector of space. He's magnitudes beyond being far more powerful than people who can dominate entire planetary populaces casually. He's the Sidious of the ancient Sith line, having scaling over everything they have, Darth Maul as of TPM is the Bane of that line. I'd like to see Starkiller being able to claim such vast superiority.

I could argue this all, easily, but Kun is simply a tier beyond Starkiller.