Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun

February 11th 2020, 3:59 pm

> Peak versions for both combatants
> Takes place in Both

R1: Sabers
R2: Force (Kun has no external amps or talisman)
R3: Force (Kun has his gear)
R4: All out (Kun has no gear except his double bladed saber)
R5: All out (Kun has his gear)

Bonus: Reborn Krayt replaces Wyyrlok, Kun possesses Kyp and both attack Krayt.

Who wins?

February 11th 2020, 5:15 pm

Kun in 1-5, Krayt in the bonus round.

February 11th 2020, 5:24 pm

Corvinus wrote:Kun in 1-5, Krayt in the bonus round.

Why does Kun win sabers? He's only Baas tier and that's it.

....I hope you realize my sarcasm in trying to prove a point about a certain concept running around lately..

February 11th 2020, 5:30 pm

Kun all, with the bonus being a stomp

February 11th 2020, 6:44 pm

Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

February 11th 2020, 10:08 pm

Literally nothing supporting why Wyyrlok wins, lol. Kun stomps everything but Reborn Krayt.

February 12th 2020, 6:10 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

February 12th 2020, 6:31 am

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him.

February 12th 2020, 9:11 am

Kun all rounds

February 12th 2020, 10:24 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

Citation needed for Kun scaling above Legacy Andeddu.

February 12th 2020, 10:38 am

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

Citation needed for Kun scaling above Legacy Andeddu.

Citation needed for Andeddu gaining any sort of power whatsoever during his stint being dead.

February 12th 2020, 10:41 am

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

Citation needed for Kun scaling above Legacy Andeddu.

Citation needed for Andeddu gaining any sort of power whatsoever during his stint being dead.

Cite your sources first.

February 12th 2020, 10:46 am

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

Citation needed for Kun scaling above Legacy Andeddu.

Citation needed for Andeddu gaining any sort of power whatsoever during his stint being dead.

Cite your sources first.

Yea, thats not how this works. You accepted the claim that Kun was above Andeddu as of his life in the 5000ish BBY Era. You accepted he had the chain and the statement above

You then implicitly made a claim that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different than Prakith Andeddu. You need to provide evidence for that claim, because it's not something that is immediately apparent. The dude was dead, the only thing that remained was an echo of him that was in a Holocron

February 12th 2020, 1:27 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Why are we assuming that there exists a baseline off which we can compare Wyyrlok and Kun by using the Andeddu fight? TP is a notoriously difficult ability to use against a similarly powerful opponent in combat, or even one who is much weaker but of a strong willpower. In most cases the attempt would be meaningless and would result in the attacker just wasting energy trying. So, then, the fact that Wyyrlok not only defeated Andeddu, but killed him with telepathy suggests a gaping disparity between the two. Hell, Essence Transfer, particularly when used aggressively against a resisting target, isn't all that different in principle although it is a bit harder to pull off, and with that ability Bane was unable to defeat Zannah who was his rough equal but died in the attempt, Sidious was unable to possess much more than an unborn fetus with the ability, and he was even dragged down to hell by Jeng Droga's spirit.

Not to mention, the claim that the fight was particularly difficult for Wyyrlok is extremely overstated, because all that happened was Andeddu talked shit after initiating the TP fight, Wyyrlok rebuked him, convinced him that the illusions being projected were real, and killed Andeddu as he not completely metaphorically was drowned to death in a geyser of lava.

So... no, we're not able to lowball Wyyrlok using Andeddu sadly, simply due to how TP works and because there exists no basis to make the comparison anyway.

Anyway, Wyyrlok's sorcery-based combat feats against powerful Force users are better than Kun's. Mind-fucking a dozen Force sensitive Sith cultists with an "iota" of his power, outright killing Andeddu, and causing Reborn Krayt to take a knee are better than Kun mind-fucking weak willed non-Force sensitives or blasting Aleema Keto. His only noteworthy feat was against Luke, which was circumstance-ridden and backed by Kyp Durron's own prodigious power, with Kun simply providing the skills - skills Luke did not have a counter for at the time due not to a deficiency in power but training. Wyyrlok's power feats are also better, which include smashing space-age rock/marble apart with lightning, destroying lightsaber resistant vong armor with lightning, scaling healthily above Cade Skywalker and not receiving the same extent of an asswhooping from Reborn Krayt that Kun would receive.

February 12th 2020, 1:58 pm

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:Kun gets stomped in virtually every round lol

In what clown world does Andeddu (whom Kun has a pretty potent direct scaling chain and a supremacy statement above) nearly kill Wyyrlok, but Kun get stomped by him

Citation needed for Kun scaling above Legacy Andeddu.

Citation needed for Andeddu gaining any sort of power whatsoever during his stint being dead.

Cite your sources first.

Yea, thats not how this works. You accepted the claim that Kun was above Andeddu as of his life in the 5000ish BBY Era. You accepted he had the chain and the statement above

You then implicitly made a claim that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different than Prakith Andeddu. You need to provide evidence for that claim, because it's not something that is immediately apparent. The dude was dead, the only thing that remained was an echo of him that was in a Holocron

When did I accept any of that? Don't put words in my mouth. I asked you to provide proof first and you then deflected by asking me to prove something else instead.

February 12th 2020, 2:15 pm Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Because its not run of the mill TP. It's a very specific sorcery technique. The whole "forcing people to believe illusions are real" shit is an ability widely used in the pre-TOR era by member's of Kun's lineage including Nadd, Keto and Kun. And clearly Andeddu. The whole gimmick is that if the illusions are believed to be real by the user, then the illusions are capable of killing them and affecting them as if there were not illusions. Therefore we CAN directly scale it, because we know what ability this is

I never said it was super difficult. I said he was able to affect Wyyrlok with a sorcery ability that very well could have killed him, and ragdolled him back. Before losing the sorcery contest. The point is, if someone who is vastly inferior to Kun is capable of doing such a thing, why shouldn't Kun be able to do better?

This is just pathetic lowballing, so there is no real point in dealing with this. I will say though, that the idea that you think smashing rock and Vong armour with lighting is impressive compared to Kun's energy blast scaling is just so hilarious I can't take the rest of your post seriously

Edit: Yea this was supposed to quote paragraphs of ILS's argument, I haven't figured out this format yet

February 12th 2020, 2:20 pm

Azronger wrote:

Yea, thats not how this works. You accepted the claim that Kun was above Andeddu as of his life in the 5000ish BBY Era. You accepted he had the chain and the statement above

You then implicitly made a claim that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different than Prakith Andeddu. You need to provide evidence for that claim, because it's not something that is immediately apparent. The dude was dead, the only thing that remained was an echo of him that was in a Holocron

When did I accept any of that? Don't put words in my mouth. I asked you to provide proof first and you then deflected by asking me to prove something else instead.

I refuse to believe you are dense and thickheaded enough to actually not understand the implications of your post

You said "citation needed that Kun is above Legacy Andeddu". That is equivalent to implicitly claiming that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different in power or ability to Prakith Andeddu, potentially stronger.

February 12th 2020, 2:40 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

@Decaf_Reading_Comprehension

Because its not run of the mill TP. It's a very specific sorcery technique. The whole "forcing people to believe illusions are real" shit is an ability widely used in the pre-TOR era by member's of Kun's lineage including Nadd, Keto and Kun. And clearly Andeddu. The whole gimmick is that if the illusions are believed to be real by the user, then the illusions are capable of killing them and affecting them as if there were not illusions. Therefore we CAN directly scale it, because we know what ability this is

So...

1. While "Force Illusions" do fall into the realm of "Sith Sorcery", they also, clearly, fall into the realm of Telepathy. And the specific brand of telepathy we are talking about has also been called "Sith Battle Meditation", because it was originally used to sow discord in the ranks of enemy armies by making them see illusions like their weapons turning into giant snakes. Point being, it's still in the realm of telepathy - intruding on the mind of the opponent and undermining their willpower and sense of reality.

2. I never once said we "CAN not directly scale it", if you read my post. I said we do not have a baseline off which we can scale it. Kun has never waged mental war upon another powerful Force user, and I'm unaware of many other examples of two Sith fighting to the death using Force Illusions, so unless you care to enlighten me, you can kindly start reading my posts properly instead of being silly.

All we know about this type of combat is that Wyyrlok can kill Andeddu in not exactly the hardest fight of his life.

I never said it was super difficult. I said he was able to affect Wyyrlok with a sorcery ability that very well could have killed him, and ragdolled him back. Before losing the sorcery contest. The point is, if someone who is vastly inferior to Kun is capable of doing such a thing, why shouldn't Kun be able to do better?

You said Andeddu "nearly killed" Wyyrlok, which is not even close to being true. So let's go through it.

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun EvSekDZ

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun NVUhyIR

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun WhklYGF

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun Wn76Py9

Andeddu initiates the sorcery/telepathy part of the fight. None of what is seen on-panel is literal but is rather a representation of their telepathic duel. Note that it is a "field of his own choosing". The other key thing to note is that for all the shit Andeddu talks, he actually accomplishes nothing here... and Wyyrlok hasn't yet realized that this is even a TP duel. So Andeddu's initial ambush failed miserably to have any impact on Wyyrlok's mind. It's the equivalent of landing a lucky Force push.

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun XC4PTn9

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun XC4PTn9

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun AB1SxL4

Wyyrlok, unperturbed, quickly realizes the plane on which they are fighting and starts the fight proper.

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 11dRbCR

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 11dRbCR

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun W0hiSW2

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun XEnQTDT

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun Hnj99a2

And then, since you seem to rate what happens on-panel very highly with you mentioning the metaphorical Force push by Andeddu at the start, we can see above that Wyyrlok dominates the fight, quickly exploiting Andeddu's mental ineptitude, fears and insecurities, convinces him the illusion is real, destroys every trace of evidence that he ever existed, and drowns him in lava - Andeddu is on the backfoot the entire time, justifying himself, trying to make sense of the new reality he's being plunged into, and is promptly destroyed for real.

So go ahead and enlighten the rest of us how 1. this was anything less than a stomp once Wyyrlok began to fight back, and 2. how this relates to Kun in any way, aside from some vague proclamation that "well Andeddu did something so Kun is 1000 times stronger so he could do a better something and win!" The only thing you got right is that Kun would do better, but considering how badly Andeddu lost that hardly says anything conclusive.

This is just pathetic lowballing, so there is no real point in dealing with this. I will say though, that the idea that you think smashing rock and Vong armour with lighting is impressive compared to Kun's energy blast scaling is just so hilarious I can't take the rest of your post seriously

That's quite an impressive amount of bluster from someone who has difficulty reading. Now, aside from the fact I didn't bring up the comparison to Kun's energy blast, you've also made a false equivalency. Your point makes about as much sense as comparing telekinesis to Force lightning. Force blasts, which are made of concussive, kinetic energy are tailoured towards wide scale environmental destruction. Force Lightning most closely resembles electricity and thus is not designed to smash apart space age rock or marble. Nevertheless, Wyyrlok has the rare feat of being able to do just that despite the ability being so poorly geared towards achieving that particular effect, which means when you put it in proportion to other abilities, it is indeed very impressive. Kun's Force Blasts are cool, but considering the only person he ever used them against was Aleema Keto, and in every other fight he either used an apparently more useful power, such as telekinesis or his lightsaber, why you've decided to make a false equivalency by bringing up such an apparently useless power is beyond my comprehension. Something to do with "woah big blasts big power!", right? Even Ulic Qel-Droma when he was lashing out against the other Jedi used an ability that TotJ titled "Force Lightning" rather than these blasts you're wanking, so forgive me for bringing up the more salient point.

February 12th 2020, 2:54 pm

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Yea, thats not how this works. You accepted the claim that Kun was above Andeddu as of his life in the 5000ish BBY Era. You accepted he had the chain and the statement above

You then implicitly made a claim that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different than Prakith Andeddu. You need to provide evidence for that claim, because it's not something that is immediately apparent. The dude was dead, the only thing that remained was an echo of him that was in a Holocron

When did I accept any of that? Don't put words in my mouth. I asked you to provide proof first and you then deflected by asking me to prove something else instead.

I refuse to believe you are dense and thickheaded enough to actually not understand the implications of your post

You said "citation needed that Kun is above Legacy Andeddu". That is equivalent to implicitly claiming that Legacy Andeddu is somehow different in power or ability to Prakith Andeddu, potentially stronger.

You don't have to believe anything. All you have to do is provide me with the citations I requested - that Kun is stronger than Andeddu as of Legacy. But seeing as you can't do that, I'm inclined to believe such evidence doesn't exist. I couldn't care less whether you think my statement has a hidden meaning or not.

Also, this is your first official warning. If you don't hold your puerile tongue, bans will soon follow.

February 12th 2020, 6:44 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

@Decaf_Beverages: I think Azronger's disagreeing with your specific wordage that Kun has a "direct scaling chain" above Legacy!Andeddu, which isn't exactly true. Instead, perhaps consider saying, "Kun has direct scaling chains above the OG Andeddu, and I see no reason to assume Legacy!Andeddu grew in power." You can then probably substantiate that point with a few reasons.

On top: Kun definitely wins.

February 12th 2020, 6:54 pm

I don't know anything about Andeddu as of Legacy but I'll try to look at this from a logical pov. Now if no sources enlighten us as to whether or not Andeddu grows(Idk if there are, this is for the sake of arguing) shouldn't a stance of no growth be the default position to take?Meaning that if one party takes the stance that Andeddu grew, the burden of proof would be on them to provide reasoning/evidence since they are arguing against the default position.

February 12th 2020, 6:55 pm

Wasn't Andeddu a spirit? How tf is a spirit meant to grow while anchored to his tomb?

February 13th 2020, 1:43 am

Would love to hear a substantial case for Kun made in as few words as possible.

February 13th 2020, 2:13 am

Without even going into spirit feats, prime Exar Kun has:

Exhibit A: Tott Doneeta

Tott Doneeta later in his life manages to hold off a Rylothian heat storm with the Force:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 47207010

These heat storms have speeds of 500 kilometers an hour and a temperature of 300 degrees celcius:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 47207210

These things were immense:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 47207310

They can reduce a person to dust before they can collapse:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4720733-lsumxffa

Exhibit B: Nomi Sunrider

Aleema Keto and her cousin Satal, are chosen by Freedon Nadd over King Ommin as better apprentices:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4714401-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20049

Ommin was a powerful sorceror, who could cast a shadow of corruption over Onderon and dominate the populace with the dark side:

Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:King Ommin rose to power in the same manner as his ancestors of the last three centuries: by dominating the populace of Onderon with the dark side.

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4244438-ommin%20summons%20nadd3

Ommin himself was strong enough to overpower Arca Jeth:
Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4244435-ommin%20overpowers%20arca

Arca in turn overcame the dark taint of Freedon Nadd's sarcophagus and ended Queen Amanoa:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4710223-028%20006%20battles%20%26%20events%20-%203999bby%20ond4a

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4710223-028%20006%20battles%20%26%20events%20-%203999bby%20ond4a

These energies are not insignificant, the sarcophagus still has so much power that 50 years later, it is a significant site of power for the Sith Triumvirate to the degree that they wage a war over it:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can sense the power from this place. It's like the light abandoned it long ago. I fear the Sith shall be very strong here."

Queen Amanoa herself drove an entire army of Beast Riders and their mounts mad, noting the size of this army:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun Beastr10

NOTE: Each Beast-Lord maintains his own army, so do your own math on this one.

Aleema Keto and her weaker cousin Satal, had such power as they began to dabble in Sith magicks, that they corrupted the world of Cinnagar:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith Audiobook Pt.2 wrote:Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema, have begun to explore the magic of the Sith and have used it to corrupt their homeworld in the Empress Teta system.

Despite this power, Nomi destroys Aleema in telepathy, whether she's attacking or defending:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 3743187-8669959473-aleem

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 3743187-8669959473-aleem

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 3743065-8287545122-nomi1

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 3743068-1636886145-nomi1

Despite all of this power, Tott and Nomi, with the aid of Oss Willum, Cay Qel-Droma and Qrrl, are incapable of subduing Ulic Qel-Droma who focuses his power through an amulet, attacking omnidirectionally with Force lightning and telekinesis:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4292421-amulet%20lightning

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4292421-amulet%20lightning

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4250989-overpowers%20tot%20and%20cay

Ulic famously stalemated Exar Kun, and Kun by this point had already displayed galactic scale feats:

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Nadd offered Kun a way to live, and to repair his broken body: if he embraced the dark side, he would be healed. The betrayal of light was not an easy one for Kun, but the desire to live was stronger. He accepted the dark side, his screams reaching out across the galaxy and creating ripples in the Force.

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Exar Kun let out a tremendous shriek that echoed across the galaxy, calling in despair upon Master Vodo, whom he had abandoned.

Ulic disappears for years after joining Exar Kun, where he gains tremendous power in the dark side:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Ulic was then confronted by another fallen Jedi, Exar Kun. As they engaged in a lightsaber battle, the Sith Amulets both Jedi wore began to glow, and they were visited by spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords who told them that Kun was the new Dark Lord of the Sith and Qel-Droma his first assistant. Years later, Ulic reappeared with tremendous dark side powers and set out to plunder and destroy large parts of the galaxy with a large and bloodthirsty army serving alongside Exar Kun.

Ulic then attacks Coruscant, but when faced with Vodo Siosk-Baas, his weapon is telekinetically torn from his grasp and his connection to the Force blocked:

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4703555-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20248

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4703558-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20248

NOTE: I consider this a majority Vodo Siosk-Baas feat because the Jedi with him couldn't subdue Ulic alone, and almost died trying to, and that was years before Ulic had grown far more powerful. Furthermore, it's said that Ulic would become equal to not more powerful than, the mightiest Jedi masters of the time through Nadd's prophecy; which Vodo is one of, indicating Ulic became at most equal to Vodo after Coruscant:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Nadd foretold that Ulic would one day be a great Sith Lord, equal to the mightiest Jedi masters.

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun 4703379-accolade2

With Ulic captured and in chains, Exar Kun arrives at his trial in the Senate where Kun hypnotises the entire Senate and maintains that whilst defeating Vodo, who is stated to be 'no match' against Kun's 'deep reserve of dark side power':

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:Ulic’s trial was interrupted by Exar Kun, who met his former Master face to face for the first time since his long descent into darkness. The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power. Vodo-Siosk perished, slain by his former apprentice.

After this, Exar Kun initially met his match against Ood Bnar, who taps the power of a Force nexus so strong it's implied that it prevents the utter and total destruction of the planet:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.

Unlikely Survival of Ossus Codex Entry wrote:Ossus still bears the scars of the Cron Supernova: its surface is a seared wasteland of rock and sand. But even this degree of desolation is shockingly mild; that the planet was not rendered into a charred ball of molten rock, or even obliterated completely, is nothing short of miraculous.
Little academic work has been put forward to explain this unlikely survival; only conjecture. The initial cause of the supernova was unnatural; perhaps this explains the unnatural results? Ossus was a stronghold of the Jedi; does the inherent life force of such a place make it more resistant to destruction?

Kun leaves Ossus with a wealth of artifacts and knowledge, stated to be more than he could ever need, and thus becomes far more powerful than any Jedi of the time, which includes Ood:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

That's not even including most of Kun's feats. He wins.

February 13th 2020, 6:23 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

@LadyKulvax Are you copy pasting your SS post with DC?

Darth Wyyrlok III versus Exar Kun

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