Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

BreakofDawn wrote:> Goes to reply.

> Sees KoB ragdolling.


> Sits back and grabs the popcorn.

Word Salad wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:> Goes to reply.

> Sees KoB ragdolling.


> Sits back and grabs the popcorn.

*Shrugs* Figured you had enough on your plate in this thread without me adding to it so I'm enjoying the show for now.

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

@Cheth wrote:

I think Dooku wins since his power shouldn't be far behind Starkiller,

Feel free to provide feats form Dooku that compare to SK's (feats cited on the previous page).

Dooku's showings against Yoda and him ragdolling multiple multi-hundred meter long warships is more than enough to put him around Starkiller's level in force power tbh.

Not all of the ships in the hangar were "multi-hundred" meters in length. The hangar is also stated to have contained ships which were 45 and 75 meters:


Though going by the description in the novel, it's likely the ones that Dooku threw around were the ones at 75 meters, which is the Sith Escort Gunship:


The novel describes the ships as having "huge afterburner tanks":

An ancient ship stood in the middle of a large space. He had never seen anything like it. Crude and clunky, it must have been state-of-the-art at one time. The afterburner tanks were huge.


As you can see above, the gunship has huge engines. Afterburners are a feature for jet engines which are used for aircraft that travel at supersonic speeds. Certainly something that would be on an attack gunship and not a slow-moving 200+ meter capital ship.

It's also stated to have a "jagged wing":
It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons.


Again, something the gunship pictured above has. This is also something that the large capital ships in the Sith Empire didn't have.

But yeah, Tyranus takes this 

@DoA

They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.

Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

The reason why this feat is hyped in the first place, is because Dooku can lift and throw a 215m ship with such force that it shatters, and so fast that Obi-Wan and Anakin barely have time to duck. Not to mention the fact that he does this easily while keeping several other vehicles suspended in the air. This isn't a simple Starkiller-esque 'lifting/shifting/tilting a heavy weight' showing. For this feat we have to establish two things; 

• The 75m Sith Escort Gunship with the jagged wing is not the same ship as the Cruiser
• The Cruiser is in fact the 215m Sith Personnel Carrier

Point 1; Dooku picks up numerous ships, at least one being of the jagged-winged variety capable of slicing the duo to ribbons, and begins to move it. But then, suddenly, a cruiser zooms towards the wall right at them. It's not the ship - as in the ship just shown to us - it's a cruiser, and it comes as a complete surprise to Obi-Wan and Anakin. There's a clear distinction between both the ship being moved just before and the ship coming at them, as well as a distinction between a jagged-winged ship and a Cruiser.

Point 2; Now we're left to pick between the 45m long Sith Starfighter, or the 215m Sith Personnel Carrier. To set the scene once more;

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Obi-Wan and Anakin are very close to the wall, so the ship doesn't have a significant distance to travel once it passes them. Neither of the duo are taller than 2 metres, and Dooku is throwing these ships with the intent to harm or at the very least, scare them. In the split second that Kenobi feels the ship zooming towards them, he and Anakin drop to the ground, implying it was on course to hit them, or extremely close. This gives us a rough height of impact on the wall; anywhere from around 2-5 metres.

Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Dooku can be lifting this ship 50m above the ground and throwing it downwards at the Jedi, or lifting it 5m off the ground and throwing it perfectly straight, but the point of contact - which causes the ship parts to fall - remains the same 2-5 metres. We're also told that vehicle parts began to fall like rain, so there's a massive amount of these pieces dropping, which means they're all minuscule compared to the object they came from. The novel states; The crashes were deafening. Not the collective crash of all the parts hitting the ground, the crashes. This is all to set up a simple question; 

Would tiny pieces from a 45m Starfighter (Or a 75m one for that matter) hitting the ground from only a few metres above make deafening; impossible to hear anything else - noise? No. Would bits off a monstrous 215m Sith Personnel Carrier make such noise? Absolutely. Is it more likely that the ship shown here is the biggest one listed in your scans, or one of the smaller ones? This is clear to anyone without bias. Lastly;

He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily. 

Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

These weren't just a couple of 75m ships. Dooku throws the Sith Personnel Carrier so hard it completely shatters into rain-like pieces, while dividing a fraction of his power between multiple smaller ships with no difficulty at all. This is prior to noticeable war growth - enough to scare Sidious, after which he overcomes Master Yoda on Tatooine, and feels that his powers have reached their apex.

But yeah, Tyranus takes this  

Good argument, no idea why you have Marr>Dooku now that I’ve read this

But yeah, Tyranus takes this

Starkiller takes this. The most powerful Force user here and sufficiently skilled to leverage his superior augmentation and reserves to allow him to overcome anybody here.

But yeah, Tyranus takes this

But yeah, Tyranus takes this

@Word Salad

ExHaUsTiOn

This entire paragraph is simply you claiming that Dooku's ragdolling of Kenobi in ROTS is comparable to SK fighting as near equals with Vader while exhausted without actually proving it. Starkiller's reserves were almost empty, and he struggled with feats well below his paygrade prior to even fighting the army of Starkiller clones, and after he'd fought them he was more exhausted than he'd ever felt before (including a time at the start of the novel when he was on the verge of death from wasting away Force reserves for 13 days straight). SK was in such a weakened state that it's impossible to gauge an actual chain between the two; if you want to look at an actual one see the below (AP style):

Peak!Starkiller>>>Exhausted!Starkiller>>>Army of Clones>>>Vader.

Starkiller blasts away an army of clones that could have "easily" overpowered Vader (while performing below his base due to being exhausted after The Salvation feat), and it clearly wasn't maximum effort given that he still had enough left in the tank to fight Vader afterwards and win. And if we look in comparison to your chain(s), the gaps are considerably larger:

You go on about SK being exhausted but don't actually quantify its effect on SK's battle with Vader. Really instead of just spouting "SK very exhausted" repeatedly like an autistic child, we should attempt at quantifying the effect SK's fatigue had on him. And if we look at the fight, we can find information that can help us do just that: 

"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned.


So now we actually have a meaningful reference point for just how exhausted SK was and its relevance in his battle with Vader instead of you just saying "SK was exhausted more than he ever had been before" Now let's compare this to how fatigued Dooku was when he cucked Kenobi:

Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand
chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power
of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the
Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and
Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he
dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance
balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher
ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire-
lessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and
faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now
Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot
like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided
that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least
arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still
stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"
Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their
hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their
arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at
the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the
bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room
in blinding ricochets.
Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his
lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit
the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that
folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to
continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his
heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report
of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down
the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.


So we see the degree of Dooku's fatigue just prior to when he incapacitated Kenobi. He is so fatigued that he could barely sense his surroundings. Really if we compare a force user being fatigued to the extent that their lungs are burning and their heart is pounding to another force user who is so fatigued they can barely sense their surroundings, I think it should be readily apparent that Dooku is comparably if not more tired than SK was in their respective fights. Now while being greatly FATIGUED, Dooku manages to augment his speed and strength to a level sufficient enough to incapacitate Kenobi in a single blow. While this was accomplished via augmentation, it still demonstrates a very large gap between Dooku and Kenobi, even while the former is greatly fatigued. As a side note, if we take this line of thought further, one might think that Kenobi would be a relative ant to Dooku at full power. Well... he is:

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath
that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest
whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi
flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't
have time to enjoy it.

So Dooku while relatively fresh, manages to ragdoll Kenobi while using only a tiny fraction of his power. Thus the gap between Dooku and ROTS Kenobi, let alone Vader is ridiculous. 

To return to the subject of the relevance of SK's fatigue in his battle with Vader let's look at the following passage from their battle:

"Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.


Sk is dueling with Vader and finds himself completely unable to breach Vader's defenses in sabers(more on this later) and what reason does SK go with to explain this. Not his own exhaustion, but Vader's growth. If SK's exhaustion was as significant as you suggest HP, then it would be the no brainer explanation for why Vader is keeping up with SK. Now I'm not denying that SK was indeed exhausted and that this fatigue did affect his combative power, but not to the ridiculous extent that you claim it did. 

To summarize this portion of my argument: Based on the only relevant reference points we have on the actual degree of fatigue Dooku and SK were at when they performed their respective feats, it should be obviously clear that Dooku was comparably if not more fatigued than SK. While comparably fatigued Dooku blatantly outperforms SK by ragdolling a superior of Vader while SK is merely on par with Vader. Thus at a bare minimum Dooku and SK are ~ in applicable force power, but it is actually far more likely that Dooku is outright > SK in applicable force power.

Saber Skill

The latter claim is completely unsubstantiated and just flat out false, as soon as Starkiller realises he doesn't need to hate Vader in order to beat him, he gains "a new strength" and the fight becomes decisively one-sided, Starkiller puts him on the back foot, and strikes him repeatedly in a short span of time.

You just cited a large power growth as evidence SK is a greater duelist than Vader. Lmao. Let's look at how SK fares against Vader when their applicable power are approximately equal:


"Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.
But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.
The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike."

"Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target."


The first quote shows Vader arguably out dueling SK in sabers, forcing SK to rely on force lightning to gain any sort of edge. The second quote shows that SK wasn't holding back at the beginning of their duel and despite this Vader still manages to parry the blows without difficulty. Both quotes show quite clearly that Vader was at worst matching SK in sabers and at best actually out dueling SK. At this point it should be painfully obvious that SK isn't Vader's superior in sabers , thus leading us back to the final portion of my previous argument:

"So how do these two different scaling chains connect? The key is Ben Kenobi. Ben Kenobi was evenly matched in his duel with ANH Vader despite having his saber skills atrophying for 20 years. At that point his saber skills are likely a far cry(or at least clearly lesser) compared to his skill in ROTS. So SK being comparable in saber combat to a Vader who was evenly matched with the aforementioned Ben Kenobi means in all likelihood, Dooku and SK are on entirely different levels when it comes to saber combat. If we combine the two scaling chains with Ben Kenobi serving as the kingpin we get:

Dooku>/=ROTS Kenobi>>Ben Kenobi=ANH Vader=TFU Vader~SK"


To Summarize: Dooku's fatigue was comparable, if not greater when he ragdolled Kenobi as when SK was matching Vader. This demonstrates that Dooku and SK have at the absolute bare minimum comparable applicable power, though it's actually more likely that Dooku is outright SK's superior in that department. Dooku is also easily more skilled than SK in sabers by virtue of being a peer/superior of a duelist who is well above Vader, who is in turn comparable to SK in sabers. So Dooku possessing comparable/superior applicable force power and being far above SK in saber skill means he would be the clear victor in an all out confrontation.


SK dies. The End.

@KingofBlades

I'll probably respond tomorrow or over the weekend, maybe even tonight if I find the energy.

Bruh, all the hype you put around this KOB... so disappointed.

Arcann wins, lmfao. His scaling levels are insane and can't be matched here.

"Lady"

Jake ragdolling.