Maul versus Darth Vader

IG (Exists) wrote:

Corvinus wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@Corvinus If you're going to deny actual evidence, then concession accepted.

Author comments in interviews aren't actually canon.

Filoni has authority equal to Lucas in the scenario of episodes he's directed in canon. Concession Accepted once more.

Again, it's a case of what the author intended versus what actually happens on-screen.

The author can say whatever they want afterwards, it makes no difference.

@The lord of hunger Well, Chee exists. Also common sense. I was referring to legends though. The idea that Vader > Maul is contradicted by the lore itself. You've yet to refute a single claim of mine and have instead given me horseshit and false sources. Keep in mind that Sidious hadn't seen Maul in Rebels (his prime).

Maul is capable of stomping a group of Inquisitors, a group that gave Ahsoka + Kanan trouble.

Maul had the element of surprise in the final fight with them. He also didn't stomp them. He damaged the 8th Brother's lightsaber with the element of surprise, then he and Ahsoka together stomped the 5th (she destroyed his saber and he killed him). Kanan then beat the 8th. 

He did this while holding back

He wasn't holding back at this point. This was just before he betrayed Kanan and Ahsoka. He had no more reason to hold back.

Ahsoka herself believes Maul to be the strongest, as Maul states "It's only logical" in reference to taking Ezra with himself. This implies he's the most powerful as Ezra is the weakest.

Doesn't say anything for the actual difference in their power, though.

Furthermore, the difference in power is so dramatic that Ahsoka and Kanan trust Maul with Ezra.

No, it suggests that Maul and Ahsoka both > Kanan who's >/>> Ezra. Ahsoka protects Kanan, Maul protects Ezra. Logical solution to split up and pair the two strongest with the two weakest. Maul was also the only one with knowledge of the temple and Ezra had the holocron, both of which were needed to unlock the temple.

IG (Exists) wrote:@The lord of hunger Well, Chee exists. Also common sense. I was referring to legends though. The idea that Vader > Maul is contradicted by the lore itself. You've yet to refute a single claim of mine and have instead given me horseshit and false sources. Keep in mind that Sidious hadn't seen Maul in Rebels (his prime).

how its exactly contradicted in canon?


how are this false sources?


and also even if sidious doesnt know or hadnt seen maul in ages doesnt change a single fact about what he already stated

@The lord of hunger: Read my post above

Oh, and claiming that Vader killing Maul shouldn't be taken seriously because it was cut is ignoring the context of why it was cut. It wasn't cut because it was unrealistic, it was removed because a fight between the two was deemed as fan service and they wanted to use Maul later on.

@BoD (Away) I'd love to discuss this with you atm, but we should probably save it for our SS. Your post will be up tomorrow or Sunday, I assume?

Aye.

IG (Exists) wrote:@The lord of hunger: Read my post above

if you refer to the post that you make about ben>vader and chee is words can you provide a source that is not legends and instead canon?

The lord of hunger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@The lord of hunger: Read my post above

if you refer to the post that you make about ben>vader and chee is words can you provide a source that is not legends and instead canon?

Christ, perhaps the fact that Kenobi stalemates Vader? I was referring to Legends this entire time about Kenobi > Vader, but okay.

@The Lord of hunger
 

You're not winning against him.

BoD (Away) wrote:@The Lord of hunger
 

You're not winning against him.

i ask about scans or evidence but ok....

How is this even a debate?

Vader's feats are leagues beyond Maul's. Maul held his own against three Inquisitors? That's nice. Vader stomped the entire Inquisitorious the first time he met them, while vastly pre-prime, as we see in the 2017 Vader comic. 

Maul's best TK feat is, what? Dragging that Jedi shuttle off a cliff in TCW? Pretty much every appearance of Vader in the comics and novels has him doing something more impressive. Chucking AT-STs like they're nothing, halting an AT-AT, holding back the crushing weight of the Mon Cala ocean while on the ocean floor, and so much more. 

Not to mention in Twilight of the Apprentice, Maul and Vader were originally supposed to duel, and Maul was "spared" the encounter to avoid having too many lightsaber duels in one episode. Had the two fought, Vader would have killed Maul. No question. 

As for Ahsoka scaling here, it's unreliable at best. Even if Maul is more powerful than Ahsoka (judging by their duel, the two seem roughly equal), it's not by much. Meanwhile, despite Ahsoka's stylistic advantage, Vader still soundly defeated her not once, but twice during that duel. First when he drove her back to the edge of the temple and Force pushed her off, and second the moment before Ezra saved her. So Vader is unquestionably more powerful than Ahsoka as well. 

How about Ben scaling? Sure, Ben and Maul had a great deal of familiarity with each other, but the advantage works both ways. Ben was still able to manipulate Maul into making a mistake that allowed Ben to strike him down in three blows. Vader is confirmed to be Ben's complete superior, as depicted in From a Certain Point of View. 

So, Maul is able to hold his own against three Inquisitors. Vader beat all of them. Maul is barely more powerful than Ahsoka, if at all. Vader is solidly her superior. Maul is below Ben Kenobi. Vader is vastly superior to Ben. Maul's best Force feat is dragging a shuttle. Vader chucks around AT-STs like they're nothing and immobilizes AT-ATs. Vader is just Maul's superior in every way that matters.

What @Underachiever599 said.

Also, it may be worth noting that after fighting Maul, Ahsoka was fairly confident that Kanan could hold his own against him.

Rohirrim wrote:What @Underachiever599 said.

Also, it may be worth noting that after fighting Maul, Ahsoka was fairly confident that Kanan could hold his own against him.

Not only was she confident Kanan could hold his own against Maul, she was confident Kanan could do so while freshly blinded. Doesn't really bode well for Rebels Maul.

Tbf, that's more wank for Kanan than it is an anti-feat for Ahsoka.

BoD (Away) wrote:Tbf, that's more wank for Kanan than it is an anti-feat for Ahsoka.

I never tried to imply it was an anti-feat for Ahsoka? I consider Ahsoka>Kanan, who Ahsoka believed could at least hold his own against Maul. So personally, I'd put Rebels Ahsoka marginally above Maul. Only reason she didn't stick around and finish things with Maul was because Vader arrived, which was a much more pressing matter for her.

Underachiever599 wrote:How is this even a debate?

Vader's feats are leagues beyond Maul's. Maul held his own against three Inquisitors? That's nice. Vader stomped the entire Inquisitorious the first time he met them, while vastly pre-prime, as we see in the 2017 Vader comic. 

Well, Vader also says to them that if they don't grow (noticably) all the time, he'd kill them, so yeah.

Underachiever599 wrote:Maul's best TK feat is, what? Dragging that Jedi shuttle off a cliff in TCW? Pretty much every appearance of Vader in the comics and novels has him doing something more impressive. Chucking AT-STs like they're nothing, halting an AT-AT, holding back the crushing weight of the Mon Cala ocean while on the ocean floor, and so much more. 

Not to mention in Twilight of the Apprentice, Maul and Vader were originally supposed to duel, and Maul was "spared" the encounter to avoid having too many lightsaber duels in one episode. Had the two fought, Vader would have killed Maul. No question. 

The former doesn't really matter considering the scaling, but the latter is non-canon, it's unusable. Unless you're willing to say something like Legends TPM Maul > Vader per Resurrection (which was intent). 

Underachiever599 wrote:As for Ahsoka scaling here, it's unreliable at best. Even if Maul is more powerful than Ahsoka (judging by their duel, the two seem roughly equal), it's not by much. Meanwhile, despite Ahsoka's stylistic advantage, Vader still soundly defeated her not once, but twice during that duel. First when he drove her back to the edge of the temple and Force pushed her off, and second the moment before Ezra saved her. So Vader is unquestionably more powerful than Ahsoka as well. 

Ahsoka's hindered, as Filoni says she's "heartbroken", and also says that Vader being her former master (having great familiarity with her style) played a large role in the fight. He drove her to the end of the temple, which is true, but that's an environmental victory, it shows nigh-parity. If this was an empty grass field (like the stipulations here state), then that would've just been Ahsoka giving ground in a perpetual stalemate. 

The second fight was extremely circumstancial, and Vader (and the Inqs) were amped by Malachor/ 

Underachiever599 wrote:How about Ben scaling? Sure, Ben and Maul had a great deal of familiarity with each other, but the advantage works both ways. Ben was still able to manipulate Maul into making a mistake that allowed Ben to strike him down in three blows. Vader is confirmed to be Ben's complete superior, as depicted in From a Certain Point of View. 

So, Maul is able to hold his own against three Inquisitors. Vader beat all of them. Maul is barely more powerful than Ahsoka, if at all. Vader is solidly her superior. Maul is below Ben Kenobi. Vader is vastly superior to Ben. Maul's best Force feat is dragging a shuttle. Vader chucks around AT-STs like they're nothing and immobilizes AT-ATs. Vader is just Maul's superior in every way that matters.

I mean, Ben has plot armor, for one. Two, he lured Maul into a trap (as a homage to Seven Samurai per Filoni). Vader has no familiarity with Maul, and as such, won't be able to exploit such advantages. 

Maul stomps three inquisitors (who were likewise amped), while even on neutral ground, two of them contend with Ahsoka. Maul has a stylistic advantage in his acrobatic ability. Furthermore, the Kanan nonsense is clearly PIS, as Maul is capable of defeating foes that can pressure Ahsoka with casual ease. Maul is holding back in an effort to appear weak and garner sympathy from Ezra until he attacks Ahsoka and Kanan. While Ahsoka holds her own for a short time against Maul, she holds her own against Vader (who has far more advantages than Maul against her) for even longer, and Kanan and Ahsoka are willing to trust Maul with Ezra, "the logical choice" being to send Ezra with the strongest (ie Maul). 

Maul has a direct chain of scaling putting him above Vader, and while I'm not arguing a stomp or decisive victory in Maul's favor, this is clearly not a mismatch, nor a stomp or decisive victory in Vader's favor. Maul has a stylistic advantage, a mobility advantage, comparable skill and power, which gives him a win here, but Vader's going to make him work for it.

Underachiever599 wrote:

BoD (Away) wrote:Tbf, that's more wank for Kanan than it is an anti-feat for Ahsoka.

I never tried to imply it was an anti-feat for Ahsoka? I consider Ahsoka>Kanan, who Ahsoka believed could at least hold his own against Maul. So personally, I'd put Rebels Ahsoka marginally above Maul. Only reason she didn't stick around and finish things with Maul was because Vader arrived, which was a much more pressing matter for her.

Sorry, I meant Maul lol.

Vader wrecks