RotJ Darth Vader and RotJ Luke Skywalker vs SoD Darth Maul and Savage Opress

The lord of hunger wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:the lowball strikes again....

How so?

see the threads  that involve vader in this site and then you will get what i mean

Which ones to be exact?

How about all of them.

Power: Better TK feats. I can't think of a single Maul feat that Vader hasn't replicated long before his prime.


Comparable skill: Toying with an assassin capable of slaughtering two dozen highly trained soldiers in the time it took a politician to turn around, holding the upper hand against Ben Kenobi while mentally hindered, holding the upper hand against SK, etc.


Better physicals: Check my respect thread for these, can't be asked to dig them all up.


Scaling: Vader scales off Karness Muur, Celeste Morne, Ben Kenobi, Galen and Starkiller. The only notable individual that Maul clearly scales off is TCW season 4 Obi-Wan, and even that's debatable.. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:the lowball strikes again....

How so?

see the threads  that involve vader in this site and then you will get what i mean

Which ones to be exact?

search versus about vader

BoD (back from 8th) wrote:

How about all of them.

Power: Better TK feats. I can't think of a single Maul feat that Vader hasn't replicated long before his prime.


Comparable skill: Toying with an assassin capable of slaughtering two dozen highly trained soldiers in the time it took a politician to turn around, holding the upper hand against Ben Kenobi while mentally hindered, holding the upper hand against SK, etc.


Better physicals: Check my respect thread for these, can't be asked to dig them all up.


Scaling: Vader scales off Karness Muur, Celeste Morne, Ben Kenobi, Galen and Starkiller. The only notable individual that Maul clearly scales off is TCW season 4 Obi-Wan, and even that's debatable.. 

you forget the time where vader long before his prime literally killed the conclave at kessel when massively injured or the time where he faced three jedi alone and he stomped them

Power: Better TK feats. I can't think of a single Maul feat that Vader hasn't replicated long before his prime.

Scaling from the barracks feat and TCW S4 Obi trumps pretty much everything Vader has without even needing the Ben clause.

Comparable skill: Toying with an assassin capable of slaughtering two dozen highly trained soldiers in the time it took a politician to turn around

Haven't seen that one. But still subject to the Ben clause. And the statement that Vader still lacks the skill of "great masters". The rest isn't really worth addressing.

Better physicals: Check my respect thread for these, can't be asked to dig them all up.

Best I can see a case for is strength. The rest is draw or clear advantage to Maul.

Scaling: Vader scales off Karness Muur, 

No

Celeste Morne,

 


Who is not in any way impressive at this point. 

Ben Kenobi, 

Barely. Maybe. 

The only notable individual that Maul clearly scales off is TCW season 4 Obi-Wan, and even that's debatable. 

And Savage and Ventress (who scales from all of Dooku's other disciples) including Sora.

Greysentinel365 wrote:[size=38]Power: Better TK feats. I can't think of a single Maul feat that Vader hasn't replicated long before his prime.[/size]


Scaling from the barracks feat and TCW S4 Obi trumps pretty much everything Vader has without even needing the Ben clause.


[size=38]Comparable skill: Toying with an assassin capable of slaughtering two dozen highly trained soldiers in the time it took a politician to turn around[/size]



Haven't seen that one. But still subject to the Ben clause. And the statement that Vader still lacks the skill of "great masters". The rest isn't really worth addressing.


[size=38]Better physicals: Check my respect thread for these, can't be asked to dig them all up.[/size]



Best I can see a case for is strength. The rest is draw or clear advantage to Maul.


[size=38]Scaling: Vader scales off Karness Muur, [/size]


No


[size=38]Celeste Morne, [/size]


Who is not in any way impressive at this point. 


[size=38]Ben Kenobi, [/size]


Barely. Maybe. 


[size=38]The only notable individual that Maul clearly scales off is TCW season 4 Obi-Wan, and even that's debatable. [/size]



And Savage and Ventress (who scales from all of Dooku's other disciples) including Sora.

Scaling from the barracks feat

Not aware of this feat.

and TCW S4 Obi trumps pretty much everything Vader has

Effortlessly chucking around starships, melting durasteel, effortlessly throwing around Kaminoan cloning platforms and tanks, twisting and buckling a platform simply with the force of his TK on SK, effortlessly ripping apart a pressurised mining blast door a month after Mustafar, ragdolling three Jedi at once with a casual gesture, ragdolls five beasts that dwarfed him in size, ragdolling dozens of troopers with a Force wave, breaking through Galen's Force barrier, collapsing a cathedral with a labyrinth built underneath it while heavily injured, ragdolls Rahm Kota, etc.

without even needing the Ben clause.

If you're talking about the unofficial "Maybe Ben is a six, Vader is a four" quote, three problems with this: 1) it's unofficial, 2) there's no proof it was Lucas who said it, it could just as easily have been Leigh Brackett, and 3) it, just like all other suggestions of Ben's superiority, were omitted not only from ANH (in fact, the opposite was suggested in the novel, film and script) but also from the film that followed. 

Haven't seen that one. But still subject to the Ben clause.

How?

And the statement that Vader still lacks the skill of "great masters".

Source? Because there are other quotes that actually praise his lightsaber skill. 

The rest isn't really worth addressing.

Best I can see a case for is strength. The rest is draw or clear advantage to Maul.

Hardly.

No

Yes, lol. Celeste Morne drawing from Muur's power couldn't even do anything direct against Vader, and instead had to create Rakghouls capable of infecting beings with a single scratch or bite to even get him to retreat. This was before his vast growth after killing Shryne in 18 BBY and long before his massive growth between ANH and ESB.

Who is not in any way impressive at this point. 

A weakening Celeste Morne who was struggling to remain in control of her body was capable of holding off vong Krayt for a long time and was also capable of protecting herself against both him and Darth Maladi for a time.

Barely. Maybe. 

Hardly "barely." Vader was dominating the entire fight despite being mentally hindered.

And Savage and Ventress (who scales from all of Dooku's other disciples) including Sora.

Scaling Vader also has. Both of those combatants could give Kenobi and Maul a decent to good fight at their peak, and Vader was confirmed to be >>> Ventress.

Bod ragdolling

BoD (back from 8th) wrote:

Not aware of this feat.

Feat and scaling for it explained here

Source? Because there are other quotes that actually praise his lightsaber skill. 

Even after he advanced he lacks the polish of lifelong masters. This isn't to say he isn't a master. But he clearly doesn't measure up to someone like Maul. Who is consistently pegged as one of if not the best trained warrior in the orders history and is...... a lifelong master 

Effortlessly chucking around starships, melting durasteel, effortlessly throwing around Kaminoan cloning platforms and tanks, twisting and buckling a platform simply with the force of his TK on SK, effortlessly ripping apart a pressurised mining blast door a month after Mustafar, ragdolling three Jedi at once with a casual gesture, ragdolls five beasts that dwarfed him in size, ragdolling dozens of troopers with a Force wave, breaking through Galen's Force barrier, collapsing a cathedral with a labyrinth built underneath it while heavily injured, ragdolls Rahm Kota, etc.

This isn't a rebuttal. It's not as if Ben doesn't scale from these also, or that TCW S4 Obi has stuff to match this.

How?

Because he's still locked below Ben in skill and power until ANH and even after that still "lacks the polish of lifelong masters."

Hardly.

Then I assume it's something not in you thread nor any other Vader RT. Please share.

Yes, lol. Celeste Morne drawing from Muur's power couldn't even do anything direct against Vader

Exactly. Celeste is nothing more than a run of the mill average Jedi. The writer of Vector confirmed this.

Idealized? Celeste? Funny, I don't see Celeste as 'too perfect' at all. To my mind, she is a flawed character who may or may not have the internal fortitude to control or defeat Karness Muur. A decent Jedi in her time, she was thrust into an unenviable situation. 


https://boards.theforce.net/threads/legacy-28-vector-part-9.28546166/page-8

And yet this "decent" Jedi can control and handle Muur? Well that says a lot about him doesn't it? Muurs strength comes from his knowledge of techniques and control over the Raks. He's not powerful himself.

And you want scale Vader form this? You think him, with trouble, beating a Celeste consumed and unbalanced by despair and grief, fresh out of cryo "decent" Jedi with the help of tons of clones and Muur whispering in her ear is impressive?

Nah what's really impressive is him turning tail and running from the just dozen of Raks directly afterwards. But sure BoD.

Nevermind that Celeste never tried any of Muurs powers against Vader except turning the clones into Raks.

A weakening Celeste Morne who was struggling to remain in control of her body was capable of holding off vong Krayt for a long time and was also capable of protecting herself against both him and Darth Maladi for a time.

This is Morne hundreds of years later. She grew. Vader doesn't scale from this. 

Hardly "barely." Vader was dominating the entire fight despite being mentally hindered.

BS. There are multiple quotes stating Ben was his equal or superior in sabers and force. 

Scaling Vader also has.

Not to the same degree

@BoD: Sorry for the delay, exams and such:

In a non-canon fight that was also described as possibly being a vision, illusion or trick.

The intent of the fight was to answer the question once and for all, not sure how the canon status has any effect on that.

Even if you want to use it, Vader decided to focus on fighting Maul in sabers (in which he was holding his own for most of the fight and even cutting Maul's lightsaber in half) instead of dominating him with the Force like he can obviously do based on feats.

There was nothing prohibiting use of the force in the duel, Maul simply wasn't dominated because Vader can't dominate him. Moreover, I doubt the double bladed lightsaber is as big an advantage as you're suggesting, I very much doubt its absence is going to turn a decisive victory into a win for Vader.

Unlikely. Vader was shortly after described as being "far more formidable" than his pre-ANH self, and then grew again on top of that. Maul's power and skill was never suggested to have increased by nearly the same extent.

There's plenty you can use to argue Maul grew to a similar extent, and even if he didn't the existing gap is wide enough to overcome it.

Even after he advanced he lacks the polish of lifelong masters. This isn't to say he isn't a master. But he clearly doesn't measure up to someone like Maul. Who is consistently pegged as one of if not the best trained warrior in the orders history and is...... a lifelong master 

Already debunked this. It's talking about finesse, not raw skill. Dooku is more polished than Anakin, didn't stop Anakin beating him.

This isn't a rebuttal. It's not as if Ben doesn't scale from these also, or that TCW S4 Obi has stuff to match this.

This is a ridiculously vastly pre-prime Vader. Half of the aforementioned feats were performed less than a year after Mustafar.

Exactly. Celeste is nothing more than a run of the mill average Jedi. The writer of Vector confirmed this.

"Drawing upon Muur's power" is the key bit. 

And yet this "decent" Jedi can control and handle Muur? Well that says a lot about him doesn't it? Muurs strength comes from his knowledge of techniques and control over the Raks. He's not powerful himself.

That's talking about her personality as much as her power.

Funny, I don't see Celeste as 'too perfect' at all. To my mind, she is a flawed character who may or may not have the internal fortitude to control or defeat Karness Muur.

And you want scale Vader form this? You think him, with trouble, beating a Celeste consumed and unbalanced by despair and grief, fresh out of cryo "decent" Jedi with the help of tons of clones and Muur whispering in her ear is impressive?

It wasn't with trouble, so stop lowballing. 

Nah what's really impressive is him turning tail and running from the just dozen of Raks directly afterwards. But sure BoD.

More than a dozen, so that's one strike against you.

Rakghouls can infect a person with a single strike, so that's two strikes against you.

Morne with Muur's power plus multiple beings who could infect him with a single scratch? Three strikes.

Morne clearly wanted nothing to do with Vader and Vader knew that, supported by his inner monologue. Four strikes.

Nevermind that Celeste never tried any of Muurs powers against Vader except turning the clones into Raks.

She literally says Muur has the power to stop Vader and then fails to use it despite wanting him dead, so it's pretty clear that this was bullshit. 

This is Morne hundreds of years later. She grew. Vader doesn't scale from this. 

On the contrary. She got weaker.

BS. There are multiple quotes stating Ben was his equal or superior in sabers and force. 

There are multiple sources including two g-canon ones showing Vader was dominating. Your faulty "Maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four" is redundant here.

Not to the same degree

Doubtful.

@DC77 (Reborn) 

Sorry for the delay, exams and such:

No worries, had coursework myself.

The intent of the fight was to answer the question once and for all, not sure how the canon status has any affect on that.

Cool, so ESB Luke > Vader because he defeated him in an illusion. Non-canon fights are just that: non-canon. Vader also bested Yoda in a non-canon fight, and dark side Leia bested ROTJ Luke. 

There was nothing prohibiting use of the force in the duel, Maul simply wasn't dominated because Vader can't dominate him.

Vader has always gone into combat saber first. He had no intent of using the Force because he wanted to prove himself the superior Sith. Using the Force would have proven nothing.

Moreover, I doubt the double bladed lightsaber is as big an advantage as you're suggesting, I very much doubt its absence is going to turn a decisive victory into a win for Vader.

Vader has notorious difficulty fighting opponents with greater reach or more versatile fighting styles. He also has shitty agility, so yes it would. 

There's plenty you can use to argue Maul grew to a similar extent, and even if he didn't the existing gap is wide enough to overcome it.

But there really isn't. 

@BoD:

Cool, so ESB Luke > Vader because he defeated him in an illusion. Non-canon fights are just that: non-canon. Vader also bested Yoda in a non-canon fight, and dark side Leia bested ROTJ Luke.

A) What's the basis for it being an illusion?

B) Were any of those written with the clear intent of answering the question once and for all?

Vader has always gone into combat saber first. He had no intent of using the Force because he wanted to prove himself the superior Sith. Using the Force would have proven nothing.

Wouldn't casual domination with the force demonstrate his superiority as a sith? What's he got to gain from a saber victory? And Vader might be a saber first guy (Even then he was pretty liberal in using the force as quickly as possible against Kota) but surely he'd fall back on it when he started getting the shit kicked out of himself?

Vader has notorious difficulty fighting opponents with greater reach or more versatile fighting styles. He also has shitty agility, so yes it would.

Examples would be nice.

But there really isn't.

I'll provide a more detailed explanation once exams are over, feeling lazy, tired and disinterested in dragging this out rn.

A) What's the basis for it being an illusion?

"The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle." 

The fight was later made non-canon, but even back then it was hinted by Chee to be an illusion or vision. The comic also confirms that it's not a clone.

B) Were any of those written with the clear intent of answering the question once and for all?

As a matter of fact, they were written as a "what if Luke had died and Leia became a Jedi?" so yes, they're about as definitive as Resurrection since they show a clear outcome to a story (and a fight) that we never saw.

Wouldn't casual domination with the force demonstrate his superiority as a sith? What's he got to gain from a saber victory?

The Disciples weren't sure if Vader using all of his powers (skill and power) could be stopped by Maul, and that's with their own strength added to the confrontation. Vader was also already sure he was stronger in the Force and wanted to prove himself a better duelist. 

And Vader might be a saber first guy (Even then he was pretty liberal in using the force as quickly as possible against Kota)

Different circumstances. Vader was trying to neutralise them and take them alive, not kill them.

but surely he'd fall back on it when he started getting the shit kicked out of himself?

No, because that would defeat the purpose of the fight, which was for Vader to prove he was superior to Maul in every way (skill and power). Dominating Maul would do nothing but prove to himself that the Disciples were right and Maul was the better all-around apprentice for Sidious.

Examples would be nice.

Without relying on outside examples yet, the duel itself already suggests this:



Lands a blow with an overhead kick that Vader is too clumsy to block.



Exploits his superior reach to draw Vader's blade away from his body and land a blow to his helmet.



Maul openly mocks his lack of agility.



Here, he lands a blow with his second blade, exploiting its reach advantage and manoeuvres away from Vader with acrobatics.


Once again, he momentarily drives Vader back with agility.



An enraged Vader, after temporarily removing Maul's agility advantage, slices his saber in half, displaying enough skill and precision to land what could have been a crippling blow (if Maul's sabers hadn't separated) when Maul was momentarily forced on the defensive and forced to rely on raw strength and skill, not agility.


Maul fairly quickly overwhelms Vader with even greater agility and unpredictability by using two blades. 

So to clarify, Maul at no point was shown to be more skilled than Vader. His advantage lay in his greater speed and agility whereas Vader was as usual hindered by his prostheses and armour. Once Vader neutralised these advantages even temporarily, he almost immediately cut Maul's saber in half in a showing of skill and precision that Maul, despite having his blades up and ready to defend, was unable to counter.

I'll provide a more detailed explanation once exams are over, feeling lazy, tired and disinterested in dragging this out rn.

Looking forward to it.

Defo getting back to this. Remind me if I don't @BoD.

Will do, but fair warning that my memory is shite.

that fight is non canon

@DC77 (Reborn) Also, forgot to note this in my original post but Maul constantly changes the environment to ones better suiting him and hindering Vader, environments that would have helped Maul considering his knowledge of them and his tactical abilities.

I'll address that in my rebuttal too.

Sounds good.

BoD wrote:

A) What's the basis for it being an illusion?

"The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle." 

The fight was later made non-canon, but even back then it was hinted by Chee to be an illusion or vision. The comic also confirms that it's not a clone.

B) Were any of those written with the clear intent of answering the question once and for all?

As a matter of fact, they were written as a "what if Luke had died and Leia became a Jedi?" so yes, they're about as definitive as Resurrection since they show a clear outcome to a story (and a fight) that we never saw.

Wouldn't casual domination with the force demonstrate his superiority as a sith? What's he got to gain from a saber victory?

The Disciples weren't sure if Vader using all of his powers (skill and power) could be stopped by Maul, and that's with their own strength added to the confrontation. Vader was also already sure he was stronger in the Force and wanted to prove himself a better duelist. 

And Vader might be a saber first guy (Even then he was pretty liberal in using the force as quickly as possible against Kota)

Different circumstances. Vader was trying to neutralise them and take them alive, not kill them.

but surely he'd fall back on it when he started getting the shit kicked out of himself?

No, because that would defeat the purpose of the fight, which was for Vader to prove he was superior to Maul in every way (skill and power). Dominating Maul would do nothing but prove to himself that the Disciples were right and Maul was the better all-around apprentice for Sidious.

Examples would be nice.

Without relying on outside examples yet, the duel itself already suggests this:



Lands a blow with an overhead kick that Vader is too clumsy to block.



Exploits his superior reach to draw Vader's blade away from his body and land a blow to his helmet.



Maul openly mocks his lack of agility.



Here, he lands a blow with his second blade, exploiting its reach advantage and manoeuvres away from Vader with acrobatics.


Once again, he momentarily drives Vader back with agility.



An enraged Vader, after temporarily removing Maul's agility advantage, slices his saber in half, displaying enough skill and precision to land what could have been a crippling blow (if Maul's sabers hadn't separated) when Maul was momentarily forced on the defensive and forced to rely on raw strength and skill, not agility.


Maul fairly quickly overwhelms Vader with even greater agility and unpredictability by using two blades. 

So to clarify, Maul at no point was shown to be more skilled than Vader. His advantage lay in his greater speed and agility whereas Vader was as usual hindered by his prostheses and armour. Once Vader neutralised these advantages even temporarily, he almost immediately cut Maul's saber in half in a showing of skill and precision that Maul, despite having his blades up and ready to defend, was unable to counter.

I'll provide a more detailed explanation once exams are over, feeling lazy, tired and disinterested in dragging this out rn.

Looking forward to it.

While I agree with Vader having a weakness to foes with high agility, I have to disagree with some of the examples (and more specifically, your interpretations of them) within this post. 

1. During the page that starts with Vader saying he doesn't need help to destroy an impostor, you claim Maul "Exploits his superior reach to draw Vader's blade away from his body and land a blow to his helmet." I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Vader's back obscures much of the bottom two panels, and we can't see where Vader's lightsaber is relative to the bulk of his body. This is baseless speculation based off of an obscured angle that doesn't actually show us any detail. All that can be definitively claimed is that Maul landed a physical blow on Vader's helmet. 

2. The page where Maul lands the lightsaber strike across Vader's torso, you claim "Here, he lands a blow with his second blade, exploiting its reach advantage and manoeuvres away from Vader with acrobatics." This is just outright false. It was not a reach advantage that allowed Maul to land the strike, it was the fact that his weapon has two blades. The panel before, Vader had been in a blade lock with the left end (from Maul's perspective) of the double bladed lightsaber, while Maul lands a strike from the blade on the right. Due to how close the two combatants are (Maul is within Vader's measure), this is not a matter of reach, it's a matter of versatility. Maul would've likely been able to pull off the same maneuver had his lightsaber blades been half the length they are, due to the close proximity of the two combatants. 

3. The page where Maul calls Vader more machine than man, you claim "Once again, he momentarily drives Vader back with agility." Three out of four panels on this page seem to show Vader on the offensive, not being driven back. The third panel, it's hard to make out what's actually happening. Maul might be driving Vader back with agility, as you claim, or he could be dodging a sweeping strike from Vader. Since it's a still image with no motion lines or any other indications of how the two are moving, it's impossible to tell. All we can glean from that panel is Maul is jumping through the air, and Vader is leaning back while his lightsaber is out at his side. We don't know the context that lead to this static image, whether it was a kick from Maul or a narrowly dodged attack from Vader. 

All of that said, I think this comic makes it pretty clear Vader and Maul are close to equals as duelists, as depicted. Maul himself even alludes to it, when he states he is surprised Vader can stand his ground against him. Maul might have landed a few physical strikes against the slower, clumsier Vader, but Vader's armor makes this effectively a non-issue. He barely seems to budge from the punch to his head, and he only faultered a bit when Maul landed a direct kick. This is in contrast to, say, Luke's kick in RotJ, which sent Vader flying about four meters. Clearly, Maul's physical strikes had little effect on Vader. Not to mention, Maul's fighting style heavily relies on integrating this punches and kicks, while Vader hardly ever employs hand to hand combat during a lightsaber duel, outside of the occassional backhand or grapple. 

Maul might have landed the first actual hit with a lightsaber, but it only came after a good deal of acrobatics and leaping around, which Vader is poorly suited for (no pun intended). Up until that point, the two had been dueling as pretty much equal. Had the two been dueling on neutral ground from start to finish, I don't imagine Maul would have performed nearly as well. 

All that said, this comic is non-canon anyway. Sure, you might argue it's trying to give us a "definitive" answer to who is superior, but it doesn't even do that. It's a comic that was literally made to show a really cool fight that never got to happen in canon, because they knew it was a fan favorite match up. It has no more relevance than the Star Wars Insider versus which claim RotJ Luke is Galen Marek's superior.